I got that impression. I think I'm glad you're on the road... the blowback from this could be dangerous, given my proclivity for Paw-in-Mouth disease.

At this point, I'm recommending pig's blood, in liberal quantities.

the blowback from this could be dangerous, given my proclivity for Paw-in-Mouth disease."

Heh. I'd love to have company in the Dog House, John. Though the couch is lumpy after about a week.

Where are the honest Roman Catholics admitting that today's barbarism is not much different from their religion during the 600 years of the Catholic Inquisition?

Well, first of all, it was the Spanish Inquisition- not all Catholics were involved.
Secondly, as a Roman Catholic, I am not responsible for what happened hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

And what about the Protestents in New England hunting down witches - the thing is, in a civilized world, the Islamofascists are acting like animals, and there is no excuse for their behaviour.

So, by the logic ABC is showing... Because I am descended from slaveholders one side of the family, I am not allowed an opinion on any aspect of civil rights, unless it is accompanied by a caveat saying that I am tainted by the actions of my forebears, and therefore don't listen to me.

Or, as a Protestant, *I* can't say anything about the state of play in the Muslim world unless I first caveat that several hundred years ago Protestants burned witches and hung people for heresy, implying that because of that, we can't really have an opinion on today's events, though the Christian world, has, for the most part, managed to get away from that sort of thing.

But no, in ABC's world, because it once happened in a timeline, all subsequent events on that timeline are tainted fruit.

Or something like that.

Go fish somewhere else, ABC, if that's all you've got to offer.

I love your post Beth, I agree with you.

One for the road...

Try to keep in mind that we are not fighting Al Quaida in Iraq, but insurgents fighting to rid their country of an invading army (uhhh...that would be us)....

I would imagine that if we had an occupying army in the states, Pat Robertson and his merry band might try to chop off a few heads...religious extremism in ANY form is barbaric...but the extremism in Iraq we brought on ourselves. Saddam was an ass, but at least he was a SECULAR ass...

Dan- you're a fool and a stupid one at that.

Who attacked America on 9-11? Insurgents? What were they defending??

The vast majority of Iraqi's appreciate the fact that Saddam is gone. The problems that country has faced through the decades have been really bad- course people like you don't see everyday killing of women, everyday public hangings and the gassing of innocent citizens - as a bad thing NOW DO YOU?
Saddam robbed his own people of food and medical care; he used monies for his own personal gain. He was an ass, is an ass and the world is better without him. He was a murderous thug who was elected on ballots that had HIS name on them only.

Al Qaida is in Iraq. They are causing the extremism, not American troops. AQ is afraid of a free and democratic country in the middle east.
Freedom is the end goal here and if you don't like it, go live in Iran. Go live in China. As I'm sure you have heard before, freedom isn't free. And it is a human right that not too many liberals seem to understand.

Why be so sensitive about facts of history? Yes, Islamofascists are acting exactly like "Christian" Papal Inquisitors did a few hundred years ago. If it were just a Spanish diversion, why did 80 consecutive Popes condone the Inquisition? What did Spain have to do with Innocent III’s extermination and massacre of the Albigensians? If I were to tell you I now belong to the Nazi Party, (over 60 years in the past) you’d probably be a little less sanguine as you are proud to call yourself a Catholic. Let’s be honest and stop the deception.

Gabriel Naudé: “In Rome, they forgive atheists, sodomites, Libertines and all other kinds of offenders, but they will never forgive anybody who speaks badly of the Pope or of the Curia or who even creates an impression of having doubts about Papal Omnipotence.”

Just happy the Reformation brought about the freedoms we now enjoy.

Incidentally, the "Inquisition" involved very few violent deaths, and despite common belief, the Germans were the ones burning people at the stake, not the Catholics.

And Dan, its not an insurgency, its a civil war between the Sunnis and Shiites, though that does rid you of your romantic notions of proletariot revolution, I know.

Saddam was sort of secular, in the way that any dictator is secular. In other words, dictators don't need religion because their rule is infallible. Like Castro, Lenin, Mao, and others, his view of the state took the place of religion.

"Saddam robbed his own people of food and medical care; he used monies for his own personal gain."

Sounds like Bush to me....

And please...name calling? I am stupid? I guess I should have known that before I spent the money on a PhD....please people...that kind of rhetoric may work for someone like Ann Coulter...but not all of us are stupid enough to live in a red state. You spout the Bush propaganda well, but your words show me you are incapable of thinking for yourselves.

As far as the Spanish Inquisition is concerned, one must look for context to chronology and geography. Chronology first. The Holy Office, as it was popularly called, was founded in 1478 on the strength of a papal rescript requested by the sovereigns of a newly united Spain, the wife and husband, Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand of Aragon. For precedent they cited the functioning of the Roman Inquisition during the thirteenth century when, under this rubric, the popes established special circuit courts to investigate and, when possible, to root up various heterodox movements, especially in southern France and northern Italy. These movements - lumped together under the rather sinister-sounding label "Cathari" - had alarmed the lords temporal of the time no less than the lords spiritual, because the Manichaean doctrines and life-style proposed by the Cathari were deemed as subversive of civil well-being as of ecclesiastical. Over the course of a hundred years or so the Cathari were pretty well stamped out or driven underground through the cooperative efforts of Church and State. The inquisitors' job had been to establish the juridical facts in each case, and if, as a result, an individual were judged to be an unyielding heretic, the government's job had been to exact punishment from that person, up to and including death.

Yet in many respects - and here is a truth extremely difficult for us at the end of the twentieth century to comprehend - to speak of "Church and State" during the Middle Ages, and indeed much later, is to draw a distinction without a difference. That the civil and ecclesiastical entities represented essentially separate spheres, that religion should be a strictly private matter left to the choice of each individual, that persons of conflicting religious views or with no religious views at all could live in fruitful harmony - these ideas were unknown during the time the Roman inquisitors were harassing the Albigensians in the south of France, and unknown also when, two centuries later, Ferdinand and Isabella asked for the establishment of an Inquisition unique to Spain. Pope Sixtus IV, in granting their request, explicitly testified to the principle that it was the first duty of kings to nurture and defend the faith of their people, and implicitly he professed what was for him and his contemporaries a truism, that no society could exist without religious uniformity, that - to appropriate a celebrated statement of another era - "a house divided against itself cannot stand." Here was a conviction fully appreciated, incidentally, by the likes of Elizabeth I and the Dutch Calvinists, who gave it full rein in their own persecution-policies.

As far as procedure was concerned, the Spanish Inquisition pretty much followed the precedent established in the thirteenth century and the models provided by secular tribunals. The legal machinery was put into motion by sworn denunciation of an individual or, on occasion, of a particular village or region. In the latter instance, prior to the formal inquiry a "term of grace" of thirty to forty days was routinely issued, during which period suspected dissidents could recant or prepare their defense. Once accused, a defendant was provided the services of a lawyer, and he could not be examined by the officers of the court without the presence of two disinterested priests. The identity of the witnesses of his alleged crime, however, was not revealed to him, and so he could not confront them. This was a severe disadvantage, even though harsh punishment was meted out to those revealed to have been false accusers. Judges, not juries, decided questions of fact as well as of law, and in effect the Spanish Inquisition combined the functions of investigation, prosecution, and judgment. Indeed, anyone arrested by the Inquisition was presumed guilty until proven innocent, a circumstance very unsettling to us who have enjoyed the blessings of the English common law tradition. Torture, a commonplace with secular jurisdictions, had been forbidden at first in the old Roman Inquisition, but then it had gradually come into use, with the provisos that it be applied only once and that it not threaten life or limb. In Spain these rules were adopted from the start, but early on Sixtus IV, deluged with complaints, protested to the Spanish government that the Inquisition was employing torture too freely. Unhappily the pope's remonstrances fell on deaf ears.

1478, at the moment the Inquisition was set up, the Christians of the Iberian peninsula had been engaged in a crusade for nearly seven hundred years. The fighting had not been constant, to be sure - it took our enlightened epoch to develop the fine art of total war - but ever since the eighth century, when the Arab Muslims had stormed across the straits of Gibraltar from Africa and with fire and sword had subjugated the peninsula as far north as the Ebro River, the native resistance to their occupation had been constant. And, by fits and starts, with frequent intervals of inactivity, resistance had gradually evolved into counter-attack, into a growing determination to win back what had been lost to the alien invaders. Little by little this relentless process of reconquest - la reconquista -drove the descendants of those invaders, the Moors, ever farther into the south until, in 1478, they had left to them only a small enclave around the city of Granada.

ta a scenario of this kind presented a danger profoundly more serious than elsewhere. As the Christians slowly reestablished their hegemony over the peninsula - expressed in the two distinct political entities, Portugal and Spain - the potential antagonists of religious uniformity they were determined to impose were not indigenous eccentrics, as was the case in other European countries (bear in mind that the Protestant Reformation was at this moment still forty years in the future), but a conquered population linked by ties of race and religion to the Muslims living in the principalities of North Africa, which at Gibraltar lay only sixteen watery miles away. Even more ominous from the Spanish point of view was the fact that these so-called barbary states - the modern nations of Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia - formed part of a vast imperial system established by the Muslim Turks, a system as powerful and menacing to western Europe as the Soviet bloc was conceived to be in our day. As the reconquista proceeded, therefore, and especially after Granada and the last remnant of Spanish Islam fell to the armies of Ferdinand and Isabella in 1492, policy-makers had to decide how to treat the Moors and the relatively small but influential Jewish community which, in marked contrast to what our century has witnessed, had flourished within a larger Islamic society. The Christian victors, fearful of Muslim sympathizers in their midst, offered no compromise: Moors and Jews had to accept baptism or face expulsion from the country now defined as entirely Catholic.

What this decision amounted to, of course, was a policy of forced conversion, something quite incompatible with traditional Catholic teaching. This fact was pointed out by several popes and numerous Spanish theologians over a long period, but the sentiment expressed by one of Ferdinand of Aragon's royal predecessors was the one that prevailed: "The enemies of the cross of Christ and violators of the Christian law are likewise our enemies and the enemies of our kingdom, and ought therefore to be dealt with as such."

Predictably, however, the stark choice between conformity and exile invited pretense and hypocrisy on the part of those dragooned into a faith not of their own choosing. The Jews and Moors who conformed rather than depart the land in which they and their ancestors had lived for hundreds of years did so with varying measures of reluctance, merging often into downright dissimulation. And this is precisely why the Inquisition was created by the Spanish monarchs: as the etymology of the word implies, the first task of this new judicial body was inquiry, specifically inquiry into the authenticity of the conversion of the Moors and Jews who had come under the sway of those monarchs.

But once again we must stress the chronological track, because the bloody reputation of the Spanish Inquisition - though it formally existed for more than three centuries - was earned during its first decade and a half, even before, that is, the capture of Granada. During this unhappy period perhaps as many as 2000 persons were burnt as heretics. Though this number is only a small fraction of what the Black Legend routinely alleged, it is nevertheless sobering enough. Almost all those executed were conversos or New Christians, converts, that is, from Judaism who were convicted of secretly practicing their former religion. It should be borne in mind that the Inquisition, as a church-court, had no jurisdiction over Moors and Jews as such. But, ironically, once such persons accepted baptism they became capable of heresy in the technical sense of the word. Thus the early savagery of the Spanish Inquisition contributes another chapter to the sad history of anti-Semitism, motivated on this occasion, however, more by politico-religious expediency than by racial hatred. It was in any event an enormous and unforgivable miscalculation. Far from constituting a danger to the nation, the Jewish conversos of previous decades had already been admirably blended into the larger community. As Professor William Monter has pointed out, the New Christians "represent the first known large-scale and long-term assimilation of Jews into any Christian society. Although the process included many painful adaptations, some severe backlash and even a decade of brutal persecution under the Inquisition, it ended with their general integration into Spanish society. Their descendants quietly flouted racist codes and contributed to the vibrant Catholicism of Golden Age Spain; St. Teresa of Avila was the granddaughter of a New Christian penanced by the Inquisition."

It seems as though the violence with which the Spanish Inquisition began its tenure exhausted or perhaps shamed it into a moderation which the purveyors of the Black Legend stonily ignore. But the facts cannot be gainsaid. During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, when Spanish sovereignty extended from Italy to most of Latin America, on average less than three persons a year were executed by the Inquisition, which was formally constituted in all those places as well as at home. Or, to give the Spaniards the benefit of the doubt, perhaps as the bitter struggle of the reconquista gradually faded from their collective memory, even as the Muslim threat itself receded, they exercised a restraint consistent with their principles

In other words,

Don't fuck with a Canon lawyer.

Oh and fyi...it was the Administration that brought those towers down...so they could have a green light for all their war-mongering...

It's a waste of my time to try to tell people like you anything...you wrap yourselves in the flag and stick your heads in the sand. You have no concept of history or understanding of power dynamics....

I feel very sorry for you all.

Dan the Man said:
"Saddam robbed his own people of food and medical care; he used monies for his own personal gain."

Sounds like Bush to me...."
Oh puleeeze Dan. I would like you to show me absolute and honest proof of this. COME ON.

Bush isn't perfect. None of us are.

I feel sorry for you. YOU like in the reality based community- and what's sad is you believe the propaganda of these conspiracy freaks. To actually believe the Administration brought down the towers is JUST. EFFIN. UNBELIEVABLE. Go away.
We don't mind debate here but we want people who are not lunatics to debate with. Sheesh. Go back to your cave Dan. You might be safe there.

"It was the Administration that brought those towers down...so they could have a green light for all their war-mongering..."

Dan, what are you smoking? Let me know, because that sounds like the best shit EVER, and believe me, I could use the break from reality this week.

Beth D - when you get trolls, you really get the TROLLS!

I feel sorry for Dan E.'s mental problems, and hope he'll get help right away. Bush Derangement Syndrome can lead to perminant psychosis and delusion unless treated quickly by a return to reality.

...it was the Administration that brought those towers down...so they could have a green light for all their war-mongering...

Oh, please, just spare us the pathetic inanity and foulness that is yesterday's koolaid. Heck, not yesterday's - how about last year's??

-- R'cat
www.CatHouseChat.com

Now now, ladies. You (mis)underestimate Dan. He has a PhD, remember? He's one of those oh-so-brilliant academic types that love the poor and downtrodden, just not in his backyard. He supports the terrorists, because they're so far away. He stands up for women's rights, only not in the Middle East. he stands up for minorities, like the 1.25 billion Muslims around the world, as opposed to the 14.6 million Jews. (numbers as of 2005)

Your typical lefty who has a brilliant mind, but is wasting it with the personality and simplistic outlook of a 10-year old.

RG

RG: Your typical lefty who has a brilliant mind

Not in my experience. And certainly no more than on the right.

They just gravitate to where they can tut-tut at everyone and not do any economically useful labor.

Good point John. This little windbag troll of yours is enjoying his 15 minutes - now move along Dan & go back to the DU where you came from.

Where are the honest Mongolians who will admit that today's barbarism is not much different from their brand of barbarism during the Mongol invasions of the 13th Century?

Idiot.

LOL...Lord, that was funny. And, I hate to be the arbiter of bad news, but I don't think what the little troll is smoking is the "best $h1t ever" but may in fact be LSD, black heroin laced. The variety that induces paranoia and schizophrenia along with violent outbursts that sometimes results in self emolation.

So, I wouldn't really be asking to share it if I was you. ;)

Idiot? Got any more straw men? Disregard the horrible influence of Catholicism on Central and South America, even today. You just don’t find much enlightenment in totally Catholic countries.

Jesuit historian DeRosa admits that the Holocaust was purely an outgrowth of 1500 years of Jewish persecution by Rome. Name me one Protestant or Non-Catholic Western Dictator of the 20th or 21st Century from Berlin to Manila. Just One. All were ‘baptized’ by a Catholic Priest.

Sigh. Didja know ABC hangs out at ponds?

He likes to hear the frogs call his name...

Bigot... bigot... bigot...

Taking his talking points right from the same playbook all the good little bigots do.

Ooooo!!! That means that I can still become the ruler of the world. Mhuahaha!!!

I must admit, Catholicism had a horrid influence on my Rican self.

Let's try this again:

Ooooo!!! That means that I can still become the ruler of the world. Mhuahaha!!!

I must admit, CATHOLICISM had a horrid influence on my Rican self.

http://www.heavenlyharpist.com/mp3/ave_maria.mp3

Beth spot on.

Dang, that was informative EM, wasted on the troll but I benefited, thanks. Three a year, thats a hellofa stat.

Heh. I'm still impressed EM is a Cannon Lawyer, even if she spells it wrong... ;^)

Does that means she puts Cannons in jail, or keeps them out of jail.

And what about Culverines and mortars . Don't the deserve the same kind of legal representation as Cannons get?

"Oh and fyi...it was the Administration that brought those towers down...so they could have a green light for all their war-mongering..."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!

You have a PhD? I guess that figures; you've done sufficient time in the re-education camps to be of such a deluded mindset. Hey, Dan: SNAP OUT OF IT. Take a day off from la-la-land and join the real world. You might find it's not so bad once the hallucinogenic effects of Academia have worn off. Trust me, when you get older (and obviously, wiser), you'll understand. You'll also have a REAL appreciation for history and the dynamics of power when you've been able to live a little of it, rather than only learning about it from The Ivory Towers.

(Priceless! hahahaha)

Oh, and by the way, I'm ignoring ABC's ridiculous comments. BIGOT, indeed.
But watch how fast he'd call us bigots for saying anything cross about Islam. Heh.

(What's the deal with all the trollage lately, anyway? I'm seeing feckwitted trolls all over the place these days. Dead Zarqawi Derangement Syndrome? OMG-Bush's-poll-numbers-went-up Derangement Syndrome? Fitzmasless Derangement?)

This is what passes for a "learned man"? From an institute of higher knowledge?

Chripes, I'm glad my instructors wore campaign covers... They didn't try to skew my perception of reality...

They didn't? Gimmer their names, I'm gonna get 'em retroactively fired.

Great post Beth, I'm pissed too. Where IS the outrage????

To actually believe the Administration brought down the towers is JUST. EFFIN. UNBELIEVABLE

They have to believe this cause the truth is too scary for them. Lashing out against America is a safe shot.