Nicely done.

Some extremly sharp (and accurate) points. I wouldn't bother submitting an application for the State Department though...

Not a false word in the entire production, including the ands, the ors and the periods.
Go, Jennifer, go!

"Israel gives their Muslim citizens rights that - funny - the Islamic countries would never give to Jews or Christians."

True. Of course, Islamic countries don't recognize most human rights for their Muslim citizens, either.

"Don't forget, Islamic States, (Islam being 'a religion of peace'(I'm sorry, President Bush - get real - they are evil incarnate)) attacked Israel in '48, '56, '67 and '73."

You went two for four on this one - in '48 & '73 you are correct. In '56 Israel joined Britan & France in their adventure in Suez after the nationalization of the canal by Egypt. In '67 Israel (correctly) hit first - knowing that preemption was the only way to survive the impending Arab attack.

I'll preface my remarks by saying I'm not an anti-Israel idiotarian. But some of those points are little more than propaganda and are demonstrably false. And in other cases they're just irrelevant. Truth is the foundation of any resolution of the situation in the ME.

The Jewish population of Israel expanded dramatically through illegal immigration after WWII. In some cases this was sponsered by the Soviet Union who wanted to undermine Britian--the colonial protector of Israel.

All countries were tribal. But suddenly when you're country is overwhelmed by people whose open purpose is to undermine your right to self-rule--right on the tail end of the British empire--and people have a way of becoming unified in a hurry.

So what on boundaries? Does that give Saddam the right to invade Kuwait. The spanish speaking peoples of South and Central America have numerous countries too, even though they have a common language and religion.

Israel attacked in 56 and 67 (though they were provoked in '67). Plus there were numerous expansionary attacks throughout the 1950s. Benny Morris and Avi Shlaim--Israeli historians--document all of this.

Since WWII which country has been allowed to attack and keep land? Did the US keep Kuwait? Did the Argentines keep the Falklands? Did Iraq keep Kuwait? Did India keep Bangledesh? No on all counts. This is ancient history and the world no longer coutenances this type of war of conquest and expansion.

As for the need of a buffer, aren't nukes enough? No Arab state presently threatens Israel with any kind of conventional attack?

Really, people born in British Palestine who have lived there for hundreds of years and consider themselves Palestinians aren't Palestinian. What's the point of this statement? Obviously they think so and you telling them otherwise won't convince them. And more importantly they're more Palestinian than the 1948 illegal immigrants from Europe that started Israel without even having a common language and 2000 years of no history in the region.

There are numerous ways Muslims don't have equality in Israel. They can be legally discriminated against in housing. They do not have to serve equally in the army. And many that lived there were kicked out in 1948 turning them into a minority.

Europe didn't want them? Or the Nazis. Don't group all of Europe--mostly victims of the Nazis--in with the Nazis. This is leftist propaganda? And does this mean Gypsies can go to some country and just take it over (they suffered proportionally as many deaths as the Jews in the Holocaust). How bout your back yard becomes the Gypsy homeland? Would you be happy? Are Jews not "at home" in America?

Just some thoughts.

Good points, all. And Beth's misunderstanding of Israel '56 and '67 is my fault. I wasn't clear in answering her question.

Self rule? Which arab/Persian country has self-rule? Admittedly, they are at least ruled by their own bastards, rather than someone elses bastards, but they can hardly be said to rule themselves in any meaningful fashion- except in the form of self-perpetuating oligarchys that ape the forms of democratic expression.

Falklands and Kuwait are bad examples. Iraq and Argentina didn't give the territory back because it was the nice thing to do. It was forcibly taken back by it's previous owners and/or their allies.

Tibet?

Russia kept the territorries it 'won' in WWII - until they could no longer keep them. If we are going to make May 1945 the dividing line there is still the issue of then-Czechoslovakia and Hungary.

East Prussia is still a province of Poland. Yes, I know, pre-May 45, but still, if we're all going to be nice to each other...

Yes, Israel did attack to achieve defensible borders or in retaliation for depredations by one or another group of unhappy arabs. Most, not all, attacks were in response to provocations. Such as the sniping at the kibbutzim the Syrians did from the Golan for chuckles and grins.

Have palestinians thought of themselves as "big P" Palestinians for centuries? Or as Egyptians, Hashemites, Lebanese, fill-in-the-blank who lived in Palestine? It's a smallish distinction - but since when has Palestine existed as a State as opposed to an area? When did these people become one tribe? When the arab nations surrounding Israel declared them so for their own purposes. No doubt, the people we now call the Palestinians have been well and truly screwed, by both sides, but in far greater measure by the surrounding arab governments than by Israel.

I wasn't going to post anything, but after reading this entry, I was appalled beyond belief and couldn't help but jot down a few comments of my own.

I am part Palestinian - 1/2 to be exact. My other 1/2 is American. Although my mom is Methodist, my dad is Muslim, and I was raised (albeit, loosely) Muslim. I am not a terrorist. Nor am I "incredibly evil, stupid, or arrogant" as you so tactfully point out that all Muslims are. I do not "want to take over the world and force everyone to worship as they do." I don't hate Western civilization and never once have I lived in a tent.

Let it be known that I do not side with those Mulims who are extremists and commit acts of violence in the name of religion. What they do in the name of God is horrible and should not be tolerated. However, you find those types of evil people in EVERY religion. By saying that all Muslims are like this and that Islam is "evil incarnate," is so naive and, to be honest, very arrogant.

It is close-minded people like you who help to make this world a very scary place to live in. Open your mind and try to understand and appreciate that not everyone in the world thinks like "Americans" and that being different should be embraced.

I'm sorry this post is so harsh, but I feel you owe an apology to the Arab/Muslim community. Are all Christians good people? Are all Jews good people? Are all Muslims evil people? The answer to all should be a resounding NO. There is good and bad in every religion, culture, microculture, etc. Until everyone can understand that and genuinely believe that, this world has a long way to go.

I consider myself a Palestinian-American. I live in the U.S. and have for the past 15 years. Prior to that, my family lived in the Middle East - Saudi Arabia to be exact - and it was an experience I wouldn't have traded for the world. Seeing how people outside the U.S. lives and the experiences I had living overseas has made me a more educated and open-minded person. I identify with both Arab and American cultures and am proud of it. If you ask anyone that knows me, they'll tell you I'm not an evil person - quite the opposite actually.

I hope this makes you think next time you feel the need to stereotype against such a large number of people. Do a little research on your own. Don't always believe what the media (and the President) feeds you. Go out there and see for yourself. Until you have the opportunity to meet someone like me, I think you have no justification to make comments like you did in your post. I am genuinely offended that you had the audacity to post something like this.

What's up with that Dina chick? She needs her own blog instead of filling up our comments sections with her statement. She must have copied and pasted that to your blog and EVERYONE ELSE who linked to you. What's up with that? Sheesh. I just find something a little bit ridiculous about a girl telling ME to research on my own (when she has no clue who the heck I am) and secondly, telling me that I am close-minded when I can't think of anything more close-minded than an Islamic regieme in the Middle East. What the heck? Sheesh. I'll admit, I don't agree with the ENTIRE post, but there are valid points, ISRAEL HAS A RIGHT TO EXIST, and there is NO WAY IN HELL that I am apologizing for saying that we need to eliminate Islamic fundamentaists. When Christians start doing the whole crusades thing or burning non-believers at the stake again, then we should do away with them too, but for right now, we have muslim religious leaders stoning women to death for adultry, encouraging terrorism, and taking American lives. Until the fundamentalist leaders in the Arab world apologize to me for all their anti-semetic/anti-American rhetoric and threats (not to mention actions), I don't feel a huge urge to apologize to anyone. The Palestinian/American girl who posted can thank the fact that she lives in AMERICA now that she can actually BE open-minded and speak her thoughts freely. If I went to Saudi Arabia and started bashing their leaders and talking about how "close-minded" they are over there, would they like it much? NO. I am sick and tired of apologizing for being an American and I don't plan on starting that trend now. Yeah, I hope that all the Islamic fundamentalist regiemes in the middle east rot in hell. Do I want American Muslims to rot in hell? NO, not unless they plan on blowing themselves up or committing acts of terrorism. But then again, I hope that Christians, Jews, Buddists, and Taoists who plan terrorist attacks go to hell too. There is no room in this world for countries whose goal it is to force their religion on the rest of the world - no matter what religion that may be. I hope that Israel defends itself against all terrorist threats, which is its right as a nation. Just as it is my right in America to speak my thoughts and for all of us to speak our thoughts even if not everyone wants to hear them and even if not all of us have happy-feel-good thoughts all the time. Here's to free speech without apologies. G-d bless America and keep us safe. (Sorry for such a long comment!)

First, I apologize for "filling up your comments section with my statement." Do you not want people posting anything unless they agree with you? I can see where The Patriette is coming from, with her background in Homeland Security, and I appreciate that. However, I wish that we as a country tried to understand the mindset and thinking of other countries as well. Is it really possible that America can do no wrong?

Second, I did not cut and paste my statement to everyone who has links on this blog. I posted it on The Patriette because it is through there that I found this blog.

Third, I don't disagree with anything The Patriette retaliated with. I agree Isreal has a right to exist. I also agree that all fundamentalists should burn in hell, no matter where they come from. Neither of those had anything to do with my argument.

Fourth, living in America and/or being American doesn't automatically make someone open-minded, so no, I can't "thank" the fact that I live in America for that. I can thank the fact that I live in America for being able to voice my opinion though - I agree.

Fifth, I don't hate America and I never once asked anyone to apologize for being an American. Hell, I'm American and I'm proud of it. What I was so disturbed about in the original post was the utter ignorance the author exuded when classifying all Palestinians and/or Muslims as evil terrorists. That's all.

For the record, Yasser Terrofat is an EGYPTIAN!!! So he's not a "real" Palestinian, whatever that is. Perhaps Dina is a good person, but the "Palestinians" in the Middle East, currently living there are not good people. People who belong to groups such as "Hamas" are not good people. My .02.

Jennifer Martinez sends

Thank you, Jennifer, for finally acknowledging that all Palestinians are not evil. I really don't care (no offense) where Yasser Arafat is from. I never said once that I agree/disagree with his views and I will keep it that way. I didn't want to enter into a political discussion. All I was trying to do was to make that point that just because someone is Palestinian (whether you believe such a thing can exist or not) does not make them evil and/or a terrorist. I agree with you, Jennifer, that groups like Hamas are evil. However, I don't agree that all Palestinians living in Isreal are. I have family there and they are anything but evil. One of my aunts works side-by-side daily with the Isreali "side" in hopes of peace one day.

Dina,
I don't believe all Muslims in the Middle East are evil, just those that do not think that Israel has a right to exist - please reread that sentence that you have partially quoted - I said:
"They need that land as some kind of buffer between them and the incredibly evil, stupid, arrogant Muslim tribesmen who want to obliterate Israel."
Nowhere in there did I say all Muslims.
I really am not closed minded.
I do wish that all Americans would call themselves Americans, not hyphenated-americans -it makes the rest of us think you really don't want to be considered Americans.

Beth - Thanks for your acknowledgment and for clarifying your view. One question though (and I'm really not trying to stir up the pot again, but...) - what is an "American?" In my opinion, I think we all could be Something-American. Whether or not people chose to use the label is up to them. Because I identify as an "Arab-American" doesn't make me any less proud of being an American or that I don't want to be considered one. On the same note though, I'm not going to pretend that I'm not part Arab. Why hide it? I'm not ashamed of it. To put that issue aside though, I'm sorry for "invading" your blog and for posting my comments if it really wasn't my place to do so. However, I hope you (and everyone else reading this) can understand that I felt an obligation to do so. Thanks for letting me a part of your post.
- Dina

Dina,

You are more than welcome to post anytime you wish, if I didn't want differing opinions, I would not allow comments at all.
Your questions about my not caring for hyphenated-Americans is a good one. When I get home from work tonite, I'll write about it and post it.
In short, though, I think it mostly divides us, you can still be proud of your heritage, but to me, to call myself an Irish/German-American, really denies the fact that I am American, I was born here, raised here and so were my parents - I am not defined by where my ancestors came from, but where I am now. And, I owe all of my allegiance to the United States. None to Ireland, Germany, or other countries my anticedants may have come from.

Beth - Your point is well taken. To be exact, I'm an Irish/German/French/Arab-American, but I don't identify with that label. I was born in the U.S. too, but unlike you, my family moved to the Middle East when I was 2. We didn't move back to the U.S. until after my 6th grade year. So, almost half my life so far has been spent outside the U.S., namely in the Middle East. Also, my father is a first-generation Arab. He was born in the West Bank. He came to the U.S. for college, which is where he met my (American) mother, so I guess I have more grounds to consider myself a "hyphenated American" than say someone like you who was born, raised, etc. in the U.S.

If I seem passionate about the whole issue it's because I am. My father's family was forced out of their house on the West Bank at gunpoint when he was younger. So, yes, I might be a bit biased, but I can take a step back and look at the mess in Isreal, the West Bank, whatever you want to call it, objectively. If everyone was able to do that, I think the problem would have been resolved years and years ago.