Gun Pr0n - A Naughty Expose' of the fiddly bits Archives
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June 15, 2008
A lazy Father's Day at Castle Argghhh!!!
I got up, did some tweaks to the new workbench. Posted some. Mowed most of the lawn before the rain hit...
Saw Kung Fu Panda...
And then... a little M1919A1 crank-gun action. The inaugural firing of this piece, which has been in the Castle holdings for some time, but which I was unwilling to fire until I had a headspace and timing gage.
Before:
After:
I shot short belts. The stuff is expensive! And yes, I do have the T&E mechanism, but since I was firing downhill, I wasn't using it.
Sadly, Pogue, this is in 7.62 NATO, being built on ex-Israeli parts.
It will protect us from rabid muji's who might be tempted to assault the Castle. No self-respecting muj wants to get shot by something with an Israeli heritage - at least I infer that from the foofaraw over our use of Israeli-made ammunition, before we made sure it all came to the States for training consumption, vice combat comsumption.
But mostly I got it because I've always wanted one of these and the full-autos weren't legal.
But they will be on 1 July. Too bad I won't be able to afford one. Or, at least as accurately, be willing to spend the bucks for.
Last time I used one I was applying the economic 50 round burst method.
Turns out you can't actually melt the barrel.
Well not to liquid anyway.
by Murray on June 15, 2008 9:10 PM
Not to liquid; just to smoothbore.
Cheers
by J.M. Heinrichs on June 16, 2008 3:34 AM
I've got two spare barrels, not, with the cost of ammunition, that I think I'm going to run through them.
Damn war. Drove the price of ammo up, because they're using it, and not selling it surplus, like they should.
Heh. Interesting how to me, this rifle is a relic of a different time, and for both Murray and CAPT H, it's a weapon from their service inventory.
Not that the M60, save for that quick-change barrel, and being a bit easier to hump around the countryside, was a better overall weapon. Sometimes things stay in service seemingly forever because they are good at what they do, and stay relevant to what they do. Like our good friend the M2 .50 cal machinegun and the M1911A1 .45 cal pistol.
Dude this is the New Zealand army, EVERYTHING was already smoothbore. It gets that way when its really old. Hell we were still using brens when I was in basic.
You never know I might have used the same weapon as my grandfather.
When we did get something new it was the Steyr POS.
by Murray on June 16, 2008 6:41 PM
See, if everbody were a 7mm crank like me, Murray, then when you shot 'em out you could ream and rifle to 7.62, all of which ammo would be cheap surplus, 'cause evverbody had converted to 7mm!
Makes perfect sense. Just gotta titrate the ol BAC just right.
Okay, I said I was going to shoot it and post about it. Well, I shot it. But not enough to post about it, because the pistol suffers from what many semi-auto pistols suffer from, especially old ones - bad lips.
Yep, bad lips.
Just to refresh, the Dreyse is a smallish, .32 ACP (7.65mm) semi-auto that weighs in at 24 oz and is 6.25 inches long. It was designed by Louis Schmeisser, and it was named after Nikolaus von Dreyse, inventor of the needle gun. The holdings of the Arsenal of Argghhh! include a needle gun, though in our case it is a French Chassepot, developed in response to Herr Dreyse's weapon. The pistols were built from 1907 until 1915 by Rheinische Metallwaren und Maschinenfabrik, Sömmerda, Germany. They made over 250,000 of them for the private, military, and police markets.
[Update: Realizing I've not really given you any size cues, unless you're a gun geek already - the two bullets in the picture above are the .32 ACP and .45ACP. I know, that doesn't really help, either, unless you're a gun geek. So... click here and you get a picture with some size cues, complete with a US Quarter coin for those not into visual caliber-gauging. From top to bottom, with a bullet for each (except the .25ACP Webley on the bottom) are a Desert Eagle in .357 Magnum, a Remington-Rand M1911A1 in .45ACP, the Dreyse, in .32ACP, and the itty-bitty Webley, in .25ACP.]
The pistol is well made, and bears a resemblance to the 1900 Browning - though internally it is very different in it's mode of operation - one of the reasons it is in the Castle holdings. It has what I think is a needlessly complex trigger mechanism, and it operates differently from Browning designs in that the barrel is fixed in the receiver, and the bolt recoils out of the receiver, vice the recoiling slide and pivoting link of more conventional (and longer-lived, more widespread) designs. One can't help but think this *feature* didn't really serve well in the dirt of the trenches. Unlike most semi-auto pistols, which you grasp at the rear to pull back to load and cock the weapon, on the Dreyse you grasped the front at those serrations and pulled back - to me, that is *not* an optimal approach. And generations of subsequent designers and users agree with me, I think. Overall it's a fairly simple pistol, (excepting that trigger) though getting the spring out can result in launching the bushing 50 feet if you're not careful (said the voice of experience).
So, get to the "lips" bit, screams the peanut gallery. Simple. The magazine has bad lips. They're damaged and misshapen enough that it won't hold more than one round. The spring (another Usual Suspect in magazine failures) is in fine fettle however. When I took my thumb off the second round I'd loaded, it promptly launched both rounds at my face, hitting apogee about two inches away...
You put more than one round in the magazine, and they all just pop right out. It will hold exactly one round. This doesn't lend itself to a fun day of shooting, either. The magazine lips are curse of semi-auto pistols, and the source of many reliability problems associated with them. This type of pistol is also picky about what kind of ammunition you shoot - wrong bullet shape, they won't feed. Wrong bullet weight/powder charge or improper grip of the pistol by the shooter, and they won't cycle fully. Problems revolvers don't suffer. But people like the magazine capacity of the semi-auto... and if you know what you're doing, they work pretty well.
Back to the magazine. With so little lip left to work with, the only reason that magazine isn't going into the metal recycling bin is because it's an original magazine, with all the markings that European makers like to put on the bits and pieces of their work, and tossing it would reduce the value of the pistol. But the Triple-K Company specializes in making magazines for obsolete weapons - so we'll get the old girl shooting again, just as we ordered a magazine from them for the Castle's Webley in .25 ACP.
And *that* will be another post. So, in a sense, I got two posts out of this malfunction.
Since they also make a lot of leather for law enforcement, I'm guessing if there was a KKK connection it would have come up by now.
Their major business is making "cowboy" and LEO holsters, belts, etc, as well as custom leather work, the magazines are an example of "see a niche, fill it" business development. The company is a division of Krasne's Inc, and I'm guessing they went with the Triple K brand for the cowboy feel to it - something that obviously is a cultural thing, given your reaction.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone in the states refer to the KKK as "Triple K", it's usually either the K-K-K, the Klan, or the Ku Klux Klan.
I didn't really think they were the KKK. Just seemed odd. I've also heard 'Kluckers' in the context of some kind of merge between familiarity and repulsion. I can't really relate to them of course we never had it here. Oh we had plenty of white supremacy hell it's still alive. They just never snuck around in funny white hats in a society of mumbo jumbo. And of course lighting fires would prolly get them shot by their own members here.
I know of leather specialists too but I'm guessing it's not the same. Prolly they would fill a niche tho. All smart companies do.
I guarantee that the recoil spring and guide from a Browning .30 MG would rip right through a ziplock. I'm sure John is familiar with it and can even provide photos for demonstration purposes, but for those that are not:
When field stripping the breech block, the book method of removing the recoil spring and guide, is to clamp the block in a vise with soft jaws and use a flat tip screwdriver to turn the guide and slowly ease the guide out of the block under spring pressure. This often results in the guide being launched across the room at high velocity.
The safe method, is to hold the breechblock in your hands, and press the guide against a bench or other handy wood surface, turn the block, and gently ease the guide out until you can grab the spring safely. This is one of those things that take ten minutes to write out, but only 30 seconds to demonstrate. This concludes todays lesson on the difference between the book approach and what actually works.:-)
Pat
by Pat on May 21, 2008 12:27 PM
Actually, Pat - those are the exact same directions for the Dreyse...
Incidently, I think I hold the record of 3 hours to field strip & reassemble a 1911. A few minutes for the actual job, the rest of the time spent searching for the bush in long grass.
by rikkochet on May 21, 2008 2:43 PM
Ouch. Busted on terminology. And me the guy who spits bullets when people conflate clip and magazine...
If you intend to have entirely new magazines made, and the old magazines are of no particular value except to be collectable, consider attempting to harden the feed lips with Kasenit
Kasenit allowed me to save more than one old decrepit 1911 mag. yeah, why save what can be replaced but I don't always have the resources, and I always have Kasenit.
What I did to my mags, was to form the feed lips the way I thought they needed to be formed, dip the end in Kasenit, and put the whole mag into a bucket of water with just the end sticking out. An acetylene torch then served to heat the Kasenit and drive some carbon into the feed lips, which made them work pretty well. It was touchy, for sure- but it worked. Again, if the old piece has value as a collectible don't bother- but if it's eventual home is the garbage bin, why not try?
1. I would suggest that in 1907, the design of SA pistols was still in flux; the Hi-Power did not arrive until the mid-thirties.
2. I agree with Pat generally but inside the turret, the book procedure was quite satisfactory.
Cheers
by J.M. Heinrichs on May 22, 2008 4:53 PM
Yeah, JMH, that's pretty much what I said - it wasn't an optimal design.
Heh, MH and I recently did something like this with the emptied shell of a SpongeBob pinata. I consider it *therapy* for the times I had to listen to the show while SWHNOB watched it on TV.
*Off to see where to buy those Barney targets*
0>;~}
by DL Sly on May 15, 2008 10:29 AM
Gawd, how I despise Barney!
Thanks for putting one in his forehead for me. LOL
1,327,044 hours of his show are ENOUGH!
by fdcol63 on May 15, 2008 10:45 AM
It was a pleasure doing the little beast in. And I never said I was aiming for the bowtie ;-)
Running an Engineer familiarization for ROTC summer bummer at Ft Lewis a few years ago, we would sit a 14" Barney doll on top of a quarter-pound block of TNT to simulate an anti-personnel mine.
As the ROTC students sang "THAT F****ING SONG", we would touch off the block and enjoy watching Barney disappear in a vortex of purple, green, and white fleece.
Ah, those memories...
Hunter (tearfully)
by Hunter on May 15, 2008 5:14 PM
When I read the title, I thought you were speaking of the President's dog and, for a moment, I worried that Cass was going to have a coronary.
I would never speak ill of the First Dog. I've met him, and he is, bar none, the most honest and forthright resident of the place.
Plus, he's just a happy puppy. Ummmmm. Happy Puppy! If there is one thing I dislike about business travel... it's leaving SWWBO and the furry ones behind.
BRAB wasn't aiming for the bow-tie. She just wanted to blast that irritating voice box of his.
Silence is heavenly.
by Boquisucio on May 16, 2008 10:54 AM
Interesting theory, JTG. I played piano, violin and cello - of which only the piano exercises the fingers of the right hand individually (as I'm right handed). Hmmmm. My bigger problem is being right-handed and left-eye dominant.
What the heck, it's Saturday, I'm going to be busy, so are you, if the server logs are any indicators over time.
This is a Soviet-era aiming circle. They loved to make complicated aiming circles. They made pretty accurate instruments, too - with one artifact that made them less precise than western circles. The Russians based their circular measurement on a 6000 degree circle. Western armies initially used 360 degrees, like a standard compass (which is less accurate than the Russian measurement) but later shifted over to mils, of which there are 6400 in a circle. That being determined by the fact that a circle of 1 kilometer diameter has a circular measurement of 6400 meters - meaning that one mil of movement left or right describes a movement of 1 meter at 1 kilometer. This gives a nice easy way to determine all sorts of things when surveying, or aiming cannon. The Russian approach is slightly less accurate - but they tended to make up for that will volume of fire.
The aiming circle is essentially a simple theodolite - an instrument designed to measure angles, whether vertical or horizontal.
Orient the aiming circle on a known direction, whether using surveyed lines or a built-in compass to orient to north (applying that declination constant, of course - a measurement that accounts for the deviation of magnetic north from true north, as well as local and instrument variations, only good for the local region, but that's a long boring post I won't bother you with...).
Once you've done that, you can then apply the principle of "opposite interior angles are equal" and lay your guns so that all are pointed the same direction. Another somewhat boring post I probably won't write, but ya never know, I might get grumpy and decide to punish you with the gory details.
Anyway - this Russian aiming circle has an attachment on it, not normally used. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to its purpose? I will give a clue that should help out 'Murican artillerymen - the US approach to this problem was both simpler, yet periodically required depot-level services.
Here are two more pics, to help you in your pondering. A largish one.. And this one:
The item whose purpose you're trying to identify is the gizmo on the left side of the intstrument. What looks like a black knob is in fact an eyepiece. What looks like a silver knob on the right, is *also* an eyepiece - and the main one, that you look through when sighting the instrument. The gizmo we're concerned with is in fact hooked on to circle in such a way it blocks the main viewer completely - since for the purpose of the gizmo, it's simply a convenient place to mount it so that you can level the gizmo. The silver knob in the middle - *that's* a knob. They key clue here is... the plane of view of the gizmo is perpendicular to the plane of view of the basic instrument.
Something to check the gun's barrel angle? Since I am thinking that after a while a gun crew would get a feel for how straight a gun would fire and make adjustments thereof?
'Plane' of view makes me think of aircraft. Is this for measuring angles of elevation?
by rikkochet on May 10, 2008 2:06 PM
Little knoweth I about artillery sighting, so (as usual) I'm shooting in the dark here. What's the maximum caliber of artillery this was designed for? Is the secondary eyepiece gizmo for assisting in over-the-horizon shooting?
by wolfwalker on May 10, 2008 3:00 PM
A tube level.
by Rod Thorsen on May 10, 2008 3:12 PM
Oh my goodness.
It's an external Kochab reticle, isn't it, inside of a right angle prism housing?
Used for determining grid north by observing the relationship of Polaris and Kochab.
Adriane - welcome to Castle Whatziss' - I don't think we've heard from you before!
That is, indeed, the Soviet Polaris/Kochab attachment.
For those of you to whom that read "the Soviet blah-blah-blah attachment" it means that the reticle in there is designed for use at night. You center on Polaris, and then rotate the reticle to account for the year... and then you can turn the head of the instrument until Polaris and Kochab occupy the proper spots in the reticle... meaning you have now aligned the instrument to North, and can continue about your business.
Our system is much simpler, but since the stars are moving relative to each other, you have to periodically replace the reticles in the instruments.
Officially, the Army defines the mil as 1/64,000 of the circumfernce of a circle. However the Navy definition is the angle whose tangent is 1/1,000 of the radius and equivalent to 3.44 minutes of arc. The Navy mil is .065 minute greater than the
Army mil. Also, if you care to do the math an angle of 1 mil does not subtend a tangent of 1 meter at 1,000 but it is close enough for big bang work. I knew that all those years of teaching gunery would pay off some day.
by Dad on May 11, 2008 10:14 AM
Actually, the mil should be 1/6280 of a circle, but 1/6400 is close enough, and has the advantage of easy calculations(Try dividing 6280 by 2. Quickly).
The Swedes, not content with the S-tank and their accent, practised a 1/6300 for a long time, but now uses the 1/6400 standard.
by kaj on May 11, 2008 12:07 PM
"I guess I should do a post on gunlaying."
Maggie and Werekitty may be further excited by the fact that this often needed to be done after each shoot, in the rain, when the ground was really soft and muddy, back in the old days before GPS when we relied on spades to keep us sighted on the collimator! LOL
This being ANZAC day... a little something else for the Gunnies who visit.
Staying alive in the trenches. While helping the "other guy" fail in that activity. This was the source of much ingenuity, such as these Aussies in an outpost in the trenches at Gallipoli.
The Digger on the right is using a periscope to spot for the Digger standing on the left who is using a trench mount to remotely aim and fire his rifle.
The other two are killing time, thinking of home and wishing they were elsewhere - but they're ready... three bayonets-mounted rifles lean against the trench wall in the center.
The Castle Armory counts in its holdings a slightly more polished version of that trench mount. While my personal opinion is that this is probably a reproduction that includes original parts, construction of these mounts varied widely, and it's possible that this is a true original. But the Castle Exchequer *paid* as if it was a repro, and it is represented here as such.
Simple enough - strap your rifle into the frame, insert the periscope, load and cock the rifle, slide up over the parapet... and then fiddle the 'scope until you can properly see the sights. Wedge the scope to hold the sight picture... and start looking for targets.
Downside is that you do have to pull it down or crawl up a bit to reload, which means you usually have to refiddle the periscope.
I've not had a chance to shoot it in this configuration, not yet having found or built a suitable place where I feel I could conduct that experiment safely, without danger of a shot going high and off-property. I have had a chance to get exasperated by the periscope, however!
As an aside the title "Digger" orgionaly went to the Maori Pioneer Battalion (Te Hokowhitu A Tu) who dug the Great Sap and Outpost #1 (The Pa).
In France its was extended to the entitre division during the excavations at Arras and by association the Australians. Many considere this ironic as the Australians were considered to be somewhat reticent about picked up the spade. Their defences at Quins Post were considered untenable until Malones Wellingtons moved in and gave them the Malone treatment. Malone considered hinmself to be the landlord of Quins and stayed on when the Wellingtons were out of the line to ensure the tennants didn't make a mess of the carpet.
Since we're so full of God and Guns the last few days...
...might as well have a gun, I'm thinking. Just in case any varmints want to sneek around the demesne at night... we've got that covered. Romanian AK-clone, Czech night vision sight. I've got the battery pack, too, but haven't figured a battery source or work-around.
Reminds me of the Korean War vintage IR "snooperscope" & light on the M1 carbine. Cool addition to the collection, but good luck on the batteries. All I have is a PVS-2 and a PVS-4.
It is an IR scope, Pogue. About 3rd Gen for those, as in, the last of them before the image intensifiers.
I expect I won't find the right batteries, but I might be able to kluge together something that will provide the right voltage to at least see if it's in working order. It wasn't portrayed, nor priced, as a working gizmo, so if I can make it work, that's gravy.
I think I owe the Gunnies something... and what the heck, there's an Easter Egg (in the computer software sense) in there, too.
And for those recoiling in shock and horror - anything you see in that picture is legal where I live, in the condition it's in - which means things that look like full-auto, aren't. They're either deactivated/dummies or semi-auto. Which means, for example, that Carl Gustav in there has a bore-sized hole in the barrel (thoughtfully cut so that the cheek pad covers it) and that PIAT was removed from the NFA list years ago, and transfers as a Class 1 firearm - just like a rifle. The recent scary story from Florida notwithstanding (last bit in this post here), your chances of finding shootable ammunition for a PIAT are effectively zero. The hosers in Florida who were "firing" their PIAT into the lake were probably thinking the firing pin (which is huge, and is *also* the recoil mechanism) was "spring-launching" whatever they were launching for projectiles. Which, based on my experiments with tennis balls, means about 50 feet. With something as light as a tennis ball. Heh. I've even asked around the people I know who have some idea of what's available on the international market for things like this... and live ammo for a PIAT isn't on the list. Hence why the Feds took it off the NFA list, lo those many years ago.
The artillery projectiles in the picture are all inert, too. Nothing at the Castle explodes. We live there for heavens sakes, and have cats! Aside from being illegal without some serious documentation, it's just dumb to have a risk like that. Want to guarantee the Fire Department will show up and roast marshmallows while your house burns? Tell 'em you've got live artillery rounds in there. Or hand grenades. Lose your home *and* go to jail. Good luck with the insurance company, too.
Want to spend a longer time in jail? *Don't* tell 'em. Then you'll really get to spend some quality time with scary men who see you as their Marilyn Monroe.
I have a question...My Mom just passed away- I am paying for a funeral. My Dad brought home from the War a Polish Lugar 1935; Radom. Would this be worth much?
Thanks,
Pastor Dave in West Texas
by david on April 16, 2008 10:05 AM
Okay, everyone sees the ST thing, but is that a APFSDS round next to the white jacketed round in the middle on top of the dsiplay case?
John...how many elves do you have helping you keep all that stuff clean??
Or do you just tie a Swiffer to the cats tail and chase is around the room?
by Fishmugger on April 16, 2008 10:35 AM
Pogue, what you see is what he's got. :)
Actually, I think that owning a non-demilled phaser is legal, despite the Federation's very liberal/restrictive ray-gun laws. Several cases in interstellar court were thrown out when defense lawyers cited James T. "I'll do whatever I want to, so bite me" Kirk's entire career. It would take less time to cite the times he didn't break the law...
So it's become an unofficial tradition in some quarters of the Federation to support the law by breaking it at every opportunity. Depending on the law, natch. :)
Ry - I bet you *not* everybody sees that ST thing.
Fishmugger - there's 7 cats, that's a thought!
Actually in the New Castle, it has been much easier to keep things clean. In the auld Castle, there were several locations which seemed to be dust attractors. Thus far, the air flow in the Arms Room has not produced much dust. I get more gunk on the carpet from walking in from the back yard than I get dust, so keeping things in order hasn't been a problem. But I've not gone through a full summer yet, either, when the dust issue may be more severe than thus far.
Weapons which get a regular workout have a light coat of oil. Those which don't, and their finishes support it, have been waxed, so they stay nice and shiny (if appropriate) and the dust just wipes away with a shop rag.
Yup. Slave labor. John finally got his humongo hands around my scrawny neck and the only way to get out of the elvish rope(it burnsss ussssss) was to do yardwork.
About the round, okay, but it is it fin stabilized? In the little amount(very little) of lit I've actually read about this type of thing it's not real clear if APFSDS is the same as High Explosive Anti-Tank. They look the same to me(thin rod on the front), so are they the same?
About the round, okay, but it is it fin stabilized? In the little amount(very little) of lit I've actually read about this type of thing it's not real clear if APFSDS is the same as High Explosive Anti-Tank. They look the same to me(thin rod on the front), so are they the same?
Not the same at all. APFSDS stands for Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding SABO. The projectile is a solid chunk of depleted uranium and much smaller than the bore of the cannon from which it is fired. It has rings around it of the same dimension as the cannon bore so that it can be fired and these fall away once it has been fired. (That is the "Discarding" part of the acronym.) Thus is is a VERY high speed projectile made of very hard material enabling it to be armor piercing. The thin rod on the front is the actual round that goes down range.
HEAT, as you can tell from the acronym, is a high explosive shape charge round. The thin rod on the front of this round is the fuse that ignites the shape charge just before the main body of the round impacts. This causes a spear of hot plasma from the explosion to be what actually penetrates the armor. And Yes, it is fin stabilized as the shape of the round is not very aerodyanic.
by Charodey on April 16, 2008 12:48 PM
About the round, okay, but it is it fin stabilized? In the little amount(very little) of lit I've actually read about this type of thing it's not real clear if APFSDS is the same as High Explosive Anti-Tank. They look the same to me(thin rod on the front), so are they the same?
Not the same at all. APFSDS stands for Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding SABO. The projectile is a solid chunk of depleted uranium and much smaller than the bore of the cannon from which it is fired. It has rings around it of the same dimension as the cannon bore so that it can be fired and these fall away once it has been fired. (That is the "Discarding" part of the acronym.) Thus is is a VERY high speed projectile made of very hard material enabling it to be armor piercing. The thin rod on the front is the actual round that goes down range.
HEAT, as you can tell from the acronym, is a high explosive shape charge round. The thin rod on the front of this round is the fuse that ignites the shape charge just before the main body of the round impacts. This causes a spear of hot plasma from the explosion to be what actually penetrates the armor. And Yes, it is fin stabilized as the shape of the round is not very aerodynamic.
by Charodey on April 16, 2008 12:49 PM
Oops, sorry about the double post.
by Charodey on April 16, 2008 12:50 PM
Only one easter egg? I thought I saw two. What's the thing on top of the case, next to the shovel? Rusty colored pipe-shaped thing, looks kinda like a mace or a morning star.
by wolfwalker on April 16, 2008 12:52 PM
Wolfwalker - it is a trench mace. But since that's a real, seen-service weapon, it's not an Easter Egg in the sense the phaser is.
Ry - heh. You volunteered, boyo. Dincha hear the Drill Sergeant say "You'll be sorreeeeeee!" in the background?
Charodey - welcome to the Castle Echo. No worries. Just a small technical quibble - sabot. It's not an acronym itself. Ry - I'll show you one when you get here.
When you look at an APFSDS, you're looking at a sub-caliber dart with a bore-diameter carrier that peels away after it leaves the muzzle, effectively concentrating the power of all the power of the gun on a much smaller cross-section of projectile.
The spike protruding from a HEAT round contains the fuzing element, being carried just far enough in front of the cone of explosive so that the optimum jet of plasma will be formed by the shaped charge when the round impacts. I'll show you that, too.
A good friend and I are planning to take a trip to Normandy and Bastogne this SEP, coming back with a one day stop over in London. Which Meuseum do you recomend in London? Royal Artillery?
We want to see lots of guns and stuff.
A lounge crawl is already on the agenda.
If anyone else has a suggestion, I'm flexible.
by Fishmugger on April 16, 2008 3:12 PM
Well, the Imperial War Museum is *always* a good choice, as is Firepower, the new name of the Woolwich Rotunda museum. Hard to say. And if you have the time - go to the HMS Belfast *and* the Tower Armouries.
10-4 roger. My friend has been last year with some 101 Vets. Jack and John of the recent book fame. My friend wants to go back with less tour control. If I can convince him London would be better maybe we can stretch it there. This is my first trip so I'm super ready for all the tourist places. He can show me many not so tourist places. One is the farm where Winters and team took out the howitzers. They also make some kind of hard cider.
Thanks John.
by Fishmugger on April 16, 2008 4:20 PM
Oh, and Kat? All you have to do is drive out here. Just call ahead to make sure we're home.
Ry will be out visiting in two weeks, btw. We could convene a mini-blogmeet.
Oh..goody. I get to pound him in person? I'll definitely come out for that.
Hmm, "took it off the NFA list..." I've seen some fairly good drawings of PIAT projectiles. I betcha we could make a nerf version, with propellant but no bursting charge, which would be fun to shoot like a spud gun.
Of course, I want a younger and more limber person than I to cock the thing for the first shot.
I can't see the pics due to the local restrictions but if the guy has an indoor rifle range, he's my hero.
I'm mighty happy in my humble abode and it would take a great big reason for me to pack up and move again. But a shooting range, especially a year-round, indoor shooting space- that might do it. Of course moving to new digs would would reduce the amount of $$ I have for ammo monthly and having a place to shoot every night after dinner would make it harder for me to afford the heavier house note.
Looks like a perfectly normal, nicely done gun room, except for the ostentatius marble floors. Otherwise, everything is as it should be. I think I gotta show these to my wife. The TV home and garden channel never quite shows places like this, and I know she would love the decorating tips to spruce up our humble abode.
I do know TWO people who have their very own personal indoor ranges! No, I regret that I am not one of them ;-(
by John S. on April 7, 2008 8:40 PM
I've got *room* to build a 50 foot range, I suppose. I'm not sure the sheetrock lift will handle the steel plates for the ceiling...
I do not understand why you'd need steel plates for the ceiling. You and the Missus are good shots (I've seen the targets y'all have posted) and surely you wouldn't invite anyone to shoot inside your house unless and until you already knew and trusted them, pretty well?
Well, yeah, clear Interior Guard out of overhead room when shooting, in case somebody has heart attack or really bad sneeze at exactly the moment the trigger breaks....
Really. She did. In the comments of yesterday's H&I Fires.
Therefore, we must comply, right?
Well, in her multiverse, anyway.
A new whatziss.
Not a component. Complete. Not a demurely applied pasty or blur in sight (except for jpg artifacts, tough noogies). Okay - it *isn't* in its storage box, but hey, *that* has a pretty revealing label which would take away the fun. Well, my fun, anyway.
Just a Whatzis for your Friday-no-doubt-sequing-into-the-weekend pleasure.
It's a vegetable peeler built to a specification written by a committee. The sighting strip with central magnifying section facilitates precision peeling of narrow, thin-skinned vegetables, such as carrots.
The one shown is the original version. After the first 4300 units were delivered in September of 1943, the sighting strip was moved to the other side, to put it ahead of the peeler. A further 27000 units were made before the entire concept of a precision vegetable peeler was shelved.
insert dimple pairs A-B and C-D into grooves X and Y respectively, then twist and shout!
by MajMike on April 4, 2008 10:47 AM
I aim to be like the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy... where the Guide is inaccurate, it is at least definitively inaccurate.
Were I having a more serious day, I might speculate that the gizmo in question was some sort of map-reading aid.
It's old. Gad everything you show is old. My initial reaction was a measuring device but it's not terribly precision. It's adjustable and there's loads of wear. It has silly knobby things (to hold the glass in?) and glass? Now the glass is important.
I liked the twist and shout scattershot. Thing is it doesn't look nearly robust enough for that.
I still think it is a measuring device, probably for distance and John in his usual deceitful mode has hidden the numbers on the reverse side.
Has a handle much like the one of my flea comb, for my kitty.
Maybe it's a flea comb for virtual cyber-fleas to find the evil micro-crypto bugs planted among the fur of the Castle's Interior Guard, which the silly overfed kitties were too slack and happy to kill, along with neglecting their grooming?
Since this thread is empty I’ll just ask a few questions:
[Wikipedia]
Care needed to be taken with magazine loading to ensure that the .303 cartridge rims did not overlap the wrong way, causing a jam. The rounds had to be loaded the correct way, each round ahead of the previous round…
T or F?
Initial versions of the weapon were sometimes considered too accurate because the cone or pattern of fire was extremely concentrated, resulting in multiple hits on one or two enemies, with other enemy soldiers going untouched. More than a few soldiers expressed a preference for worn-out barrels in order to spread the cone of fire among several targets…
A) Surely any rimmed cartridge will jam if its rim is behind the subsequent round?
B) Depends on how well the barrel fitted. Wartime tolerances meant that some barrels were so loose they rattled. These were actually preferred by some Bren gunners as they reduced the chance of multiple hits.
But any LMG should put 3 consecutive shots in a mans chest at 300 yards.
Well...something to do with marking or figuring elevation on a piece of light artillery?
by kat-missouri on March 26, 2008 9:00 AM
[look]
[blink]
[look closer]
a whatziss that I actually know? Can't be ...
Is that the feed hopper off a Japanese Type 11 light machine gun? Took standard 5-round rifle ammo clips, stripped the rounds, and fed them to the gun. Ingenious idea, but didn't work so well in the field.
by wolfwalker on March 26, 2008 10:05 AM
C'mon guys, this ones almost a giveaway...! Wolfwalker is wrong, but he's on the right track...
Many of you have probably seen this video of a Javelin missile being fired at a fully combat-loaded T-72 tank.
One of the things to notice is the little object that flies into the air above the smoke cloud. That would be the turret - the part normally containing guys like MajMike (Sorry, dude, hadta say that).
Continuing that theme - at 28 seconds into it, you see the tank get hit from a rear angle... at 37 seconds, you see a small eruption of dirt on the right side of the frame. That would be the turret landing...
All in all, the thing looks like this when the smoke clears.
note that no boot straps were injured during the filming of this presentation....
had stringy laces been used, they would surely have been torn asunder.
by MajMike on March 19, 2008 9:35 AM
So you're saying it won't be ready next week?
Bummer!
by KCSteve on March 19, 2008 12:57 PM
Holy Cow! That's pretty astonishing. Makes me glad I'm not a Soviet Tanker. I was expecting what you usually see- Warhead detonation followed by cookoff of ammo, fuel, crew, etc. In this case, every single thing went off immediately. I wonder how often that would happen on the battlefield?
by XBradTC on March 19, 2008 12:57 PM
Yup, yer Perfectly Safe (Tm) in a tank until somebody brings up an effective anti-tank weapon.
Then it gets like naval warfare, in which weapons sufficient to damage the hardware do horrible icky violence on the soft(pink)ware.
I mind a story I read about an M4 brewing up in the Second World War. After the fires went out, the hull glowed brightly enough to read by, for a while. When it cooled off enough to look inside, all that was left of each of the crew was a little puddle of congealed silver, consisting of the change in his pockets and maybe the fillings in his teeth.
Yes, that last bolt, unidentified until shown in it's bolt carrier - belongs to the Castle's Desert Eagle Mk VII in .357 Magnum.
I got that pistol back in the late 80's, I was just tickled at the thought of a gas-operated handgun. You have to give it the right fodder, and grip it firmly, or it won't function reliably - I'll say that much! No light loads. I'll do a Gun Pr0n expose' on that pistol sometime in the future, if life will slow down just a touch.
Okay - the "sausage maker" whatziss...
It isn't a kitchen appliance. It's a "powderless machine gun".
During WWI, the Army needed lots of weapons, fast. So, the word was spread that anyone with a design for anything remotely like a machine gun should bundle it up and submit it to the Army for evaluation. Every garage tinkerer had an idea - none of which would best John Browning's design, to be sure, but there were some oddities!
Meet the “Lombard Centrifugal Gun”, the invention of a Mr. Levi W. Lombard of Mattapan, Massachusetts. An article from the Repository, of Chambersburg, Pennsylvania reported in it's March 18, 1918 edition:
Powderless Machine Gun Tried
Boston March 8: A powderless machine gun that will fire from ten to fitly bullets a second, is the invention of Levi W. Lombard of Mattapan, and Earl E. Ovington, of Newton. The latter will be remembered as one of Boston's first aviators.
The gun is in effect nothing more than an enlarged slingshot. A company has been incorporated to manufacture them. The gun action is simple. It is a revolving disc, which emits bullets after they have traveled on its surface. The machine fires round bullets. Those used in the tests had steel bearings. The shot is fed into a hopper at the side of the gun and as the disk
revolves it throws the bullet at a terrific force through a slot.
The test was made at the Wakefield Police Range and the gun proved its effectiveness by piercing three-eighths-inch boiler plate at 200 yards, and cutting through a two-inch door from the same distance.
The first gun was operated by electricity. Its inventors, knowing that only a limited power can be obtained from this source, will operate it by steam at its next test.
More below the fold, in the Flash Traffic/Extended Entry.
Another article, this time in the Free Press of Easton, Pennsylvania on March 29 1918, offered up some more details:
Centrifugal Operated By Steam and cannot jam, Claim War Department Interested
A centrifugal gun which fires 33,000 shots a minute, declared to be the greatest death-dealing machine gun yet conceived, is the invention of Levi W. Lombard, of Boston, Mass. Tests have proved the machine’s efficiency, the inventor declares, and he has succeeded in interesting the War Department in the weapon. Its manufacture is being carried on under the utmost secrecy at a place not announced.
Lombard has worked on the gun for thirty-seven years, and he declares its accuracy amazes gun authorities who have watched it work. It has no barrel, operating on the principle of a sling. The latter operates under a disk, which revolves at tremendous speed. The ammunition is fed through a tunnel-like attachment from a tube, which leads into two veins beneath the disk.
The “veins” center upon an opening about two inches wide, and the bullets are thrown with terrific velocity. Steam is the source of energy.
The machine can be placed in a first-line trench and operated hundreds of feet in the rear. From there, it can be regulated to any angle. It is easily portable and “jamming” and heating, common to machine guns, are eliminated. In a recent test, the inventor says the gun was turned on sheets of steel plates, three-quarters of an inch thick hundreds of feet away. The bullets went through them like paper. The missiles are small steel balls similar to bearings.
Sounds pretty cool, no? But wait - there's a cloud on the horizon. A letter submitted by Charles Wirt on March 11, 1918, published by the Philadelphia Public Ledger on the 19th whizzed in the Wheaties...
Several Centrifugal Scoffs
To the Editor of Public Ledger:
Sir — I note the centrifugal gun has been invented again. This time at the rate of 33,000 shots per minute, able to pierce three-fourths-inch plate.
It is certainly discreditable to the American Nation, considering our achievements in engineering and application to science, that we have so many persons who seem to be agape to believe the unbelievable.
To fire 33,000 shots per minute, even supposing they are of approximately the same weight as standard infantry rifle projectiles, would require a horsepower somewhere about 6,000. If you look at the problem in another way, the highest speed which engineers know of is the rotor of the steam turbine, with a speed somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 feet per second. The speed of a rifle bullet for flat trajectory is 3,000 feet per second.
During the Spanish-American War the centrifugal gun was extensively discussed and exploited. The reasons for its uselessness should be apparent to a beginner in engineering. The perpetual motion or “unlimited-power-for-nothing” scheme has been a joke among engineers ever since it first appeared before the public, and yet [it] has been taken seriously by the Congress of the United States. It makes us squirm to think how episodes of this kind must make Americans look to the Germans. The only comfort one can get out of such a situation is the reflection that weeds will grow in rich soil and it is only American talk that we are ashamed of not American accomplishment.
This was the last that was heard in the press about the Lombard “powderless machine gun”.
The final blow came after the war was over when the Ordnance Department tested the centrifugal gun at Aberdeen Proving Ground. As recorded in Ordnance Committee Minute (0CM) Item 1215 April 12, 1921, a “Sub-committee consisting of representatives of the Ordnance Department and Using Services” considered the test reports and concluded in part as follows:
It was found that for all practical purposes the muzzle velocity was 10 percent of the r.p.m. of the rotor, that is 1,000fs. for 10,000 r.p.m. The angle of dispersion was about 30°. The rate of fire at 10,000r.p.m. was 1,141 rounds per minute... In an accuracy test, 2,000 rounds were fired at a screen at a range of 50 yards. The main group of hits formed a rectangle approximately 10’x 7’ and the extreme dispersion covered an area of 10’x21.5’, the greater axis being the horizontal.
The Committee is of the opinion that the centrifugal gun submitted did not show sufficient promise to warrant further investigation. In general it is believed, considering the physical limitations of such an arm and the mechanical difficulties of operating it, that further experimental work along this line should be discouraged.
So, why did I go to all this trouble? Well, it seems that the Centrifugal Gun is not DREAD, er, dead.
A gun that spits out ball bearings after spinning them to extreme speeds is being developed by a US inventor. The novel design has already caught the imagination of some defence industry experts.
The weapon, called DREAD, was invented by Charles St George, a veteran of the US firearms industry who founded the company Leader Propulsion Systems to promote the idea. He claims a major US defence company has shown an interested in developing it further and has produced a promotional video showing a prototype in action, which can be seen here (Quicktime). He says a new prototype will be developed in August 2005.
Heh. The more things change...
"The system seems absolutely feasible," says David Crane, editor of the website DefenseReview.com. The weapon could strike targets with “overwhelming and devastating firepower - we're talking about total target saturation," he wrote in an article posted to the site.
Terry Gander, who edits the defence industry journal Jane's Infantry Weapons, adds that similar concepts have been developed in the past. But Gander notes that these have had low projectile velocity and have been proposed as crowd control weapons. "It all depends on the sort of power source you have," he told New Scientist. "I'd be very interested to know what its range is."
But Abrahams finds the idea outlandish. "Anything that seems so far beyond anything else is worth a moment's thought before you completely gulp it down," he told New Scientist. "It is way out on the side of the scale that deals with high levels of imagination."
I know, I still owe an answer to Part 1 of last week's. Get over it. If you missed the beginning and part two, click those links. This one was just too geeky. Couldn't even get people to mock it!
So, while there was some talk of SKS's, artillery, tanks, and the M240 machine gun, the bolt on the left in the original post was that of a Romanian AK47 clone. So you got that - and credit is given for the PSL, once I knew what it was... Here it is in context, in it's bolt carrier.
Pretty much everybody got the one in the middle - it's the bolt from an M16-style rifle. Here it is in the context of it's bolt carrier.
Based on your response to my comment yesterday let me clarify: the uppermost one is the bolt from your Russian sniper rifle, a 7.62x54R beast that's the Romanian version of the Soviet Dragunov.
Or email does. I was going to do a nice, longish post this morning, but a small blog-controversy got dropped in my lap this morning (blast and heat from something going on in comments over at Blackfive) and my response ate my blogtime today.
So, I'll go with something a little shorter, for the gunnies who still visit.
Heh. This post is, in a weird way, tangentially related to that derailing email this morning...
Simple enough, and both easy and hard. Hard depends on how much a geek on the topic you are, and which rabbit holes your geekiness takes you down.
1. Are they all the same thing? If so, what are they? If not - well, what are they? Careful how you decide your sets for the Venn diagram.
2. After you've figured out what they are - what are they components of?
There's sneakiness hiding in there. I am the Armorer after all, and that's a trait when it comes to the Whatziss'
And I know, I owe you an answer from last week's whatziss. Blame Cannoneer #4, he who sent me the blog-ambushing email this morning!
If you just *have* to have a larger version of the pic - click here.
Left is AK variant, looks like 7.62x39 by the bolt face and extractor, middle is M16/AR-15 5.56mm, and I have no clue what the one on the right is, although the bolt face looks to be 5.56 (5.45?) mm there bouts... It sure doesn't look like the bolt in my SKS.
I agree that they all appear to be bolts and that the center one appears to be M16 / AR15.
Right hand one (as I look at the photo) doesn't look like the bolt of either an AK-47 or my PSL, as best I can remember. Somewhat similar, but no match.
The beast on the left (as I look at the photo) is longer and more comlex. Now it looks a lot like the bolt assembly from an AK but since it's longer than the reference bolt in the center (and because I know John has one) I'm guessing it's the bolt from a PSL.
That leaves the bolt on the right as our 'mystery bolt' - and with John hinting that there's some sneakiness involved I'm guessing it's not a rifle bolt. Similarities to the M16 bolt - especially in the way it cams into place - but a much more robust looking extractor claw. Possibly from a mounted gun, as might be found on an aircraft?
Just guesswork and imperfect memory - I'm stuck behind the Firewall of Idiocy here at work so no hope of invoking Google for help.
PSL - the Romanian version of the Russian Dragunov sniper rifle. Outwardly similar but the somewhat fiddly Dragunov mechanism is replaced by an 'AK on steroids' version. I was sure you've posted about having one. 7.62x54R - the oldest cartridge still in military service and the last remnant of the Imperial Russian Army of the Czars.
Why? Because I'm going to be on the road this week, with daytime meetings followed by evening skull sessions to digest the results to take into the next days meetings. IOW, I'm gonna be busy, so I'm spending time today pre-building posts for the week! So my two-fer post is going to end up... two answer posts!
And to make it worse - in reverse order. Of course, thinking about it - I'll probably have faster access at the hotel. Just not the time.
Okay - the question was -
What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you see this picture?
The first thing that pops into my mind was a shorter version of what TmjUtah said:
The second pic? That boy is young and full of optimism. Let him hit forty or so and he'll remember well every single 'nade he fired from the shoulder.
For me, it was simply "Ouch."
Yep, it's a young soldier, in a clean uniform, in a staged photo from a training manual. He's demonstrating one of the ways to fire a Mills Bomb from a rifle. Given the little axiom of "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction" firing the not-terribly-light Mills Bomb from the shoulder like that is going to involve some serious recoil.
Never having fired a grenade of that weight (1 pound 11 ounces) from the shoulder (but having fired rifle grenades) I don't know if the kick will be enough to knock him over in that stance, as Ry suggested, but I do know I would probably have my feet positioned differently. Of course, one would hope they had done this before writing the manual, and perhaps that is the optimal stance. I dunno. I've got a SMLE, and I've got rodded Mills Bombs (better known as the "Rifle Grenade, .303, Mk 23", and I've got grenade-launching blanks... but sorry, I'm not going to test it for you. But I will go into more detail on the subject in the Flash Traffic/Extended Entry if you've the interest.
A good place to start is simply answering Eric's questions...
Using a rifle grenade (longish-range) and bayonet (short-range) at the same time strikes me as rather odd. Was this a normal thing to do? And then there's the bonus hazard of loading the grenade with that pointy thing attached. And, as others have noted, the whole shoulder-firing business. And he seems to be looking upward, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me; weren't there special grenade-launching sights? What's he looking at up there?
Well, lessee, Eric. We're in combat in the trenches of WWI. As configured, that soldier has a long ranged weapon - his rifle. A medium ranged (100m or so) grenade tosser, and that bayonet for when things get 'sticky'. He's got a weapon he can use from cover - that grenade. He could either be firing it to break up a wire-cutting party in No Man's Land, to break up an assault, or he could be in the forward german trench after taking it, and is trying to take out a machine-gun nest in the next line, or one that is flanking his current position - and he still has his rifle and bayonet available, especially if he's got one of the SMLE's with a magazine cut-off, so he can hand-load the blanks and not worry as much about inadvertently loading a ball round, or not having any ball rounds available should he need to take a shot.
So, It makes sense to me. Yes, it was a normal thing to do. Loading the grenade, with bayonet attached? Hey, I'm the only one around here in danger, given one of the things I'm #1 in Google for... but the bayonet is actually a safety device in this context. Remember, this guy has to load the grenade, pull the pin, aim, and fire. In the early versions of the grenade, he had a 7 second fuze. That's a comfortable amount of time, but was too long tactically, as the cheeky Hun would toss 'em back, which was annoying. So, the time was shortened to 4 seconds. Hmmmm. Scary, pull the pin, let the lever fly, and get that thing away from me in 4 seconds...
I don't like that process much, and neither did Tommy. Soooo. The lever or "spoon" that released the striker is grooved. And the base plug, which is reinforced for the rod, is also shaped to rest against the bayonet boss - so that with the bayonet attached, you slid the rod into the muzzle, with the lever laying along the bayonet, and the base resting against the boss, to help keep the lever aligned along the blade. You still didn't pull that pin any earlier than needed. The whole thing also provides a bit of friction to help keep the grenade in the muzzle, in case you need to move suddenly, because of that jerk from the other side who just noticed you were going to try to kill his buddies or something. So, the bayonet is really a needful accessory there, to answer's Karla's safety question.
There were special grenade launching sights, but they were relatively rare, as most grenadiers got good enough with the weapon that they could get the bomb where they wanted it - just like current M203 gunners can. I know, after about 30 rounds of practice, I could reliably put a 40mm grenade into the hatch of one of the derelict Sherman turrets on the grenade range at Grafenwoehr, and that from any position on the range. And I've not been able to track it down - but I think the actual special purpose sights were for the later cup dischargers, vice the earlier rod grenades. Perhaps some reader knows?
Great post, John- but *what* is that rectangular object under Tommy's cartridge belt? A case of rods to screw into the bombs?
by Neffi on March 9, 2008 3:41 PM
Neffi - there are two other pics I've got of this young soldier. It appears he's wearing a special vest for grenadiers - and that the rectangular object you're curious about is excess web strap hanging down. He's actually got two of them, one on each side.
A touch OT but one of the best shooters I have is an Indian re-asrenalled SMLE. It has the much maligned Ishy Screw and the appearance of an old fence post. But looks are deceiving and that old warhorse can shoot!
by GunTrash on March 9, 2008 5:36 PM
All of my Enfields MkIII's, Mk V, No 4's and No 5, 12 of 'em altogether, are great shooters.
Well, except the grenade launcher rifle. That's near a smoothbore.
"that rectangular object" is the excess portion of Tommy's 'right brace strap'. He appears to have adjusted his belt to ride high under his ribs, and thus the extra bit hangs loose. That of his left brace is also visible further to the viewer's right. See the first photo here. It shows an additional haversack slung from the left front brace.
Cheers
by J.M. Heinrichs on March 9, 2008 6:30 PM
Yeah, but- the excess web on his left is floppy, whilst the object on his right is rigid. Hmmm... you did mention the pic raises questions, IIRC. Grenade pouch on the left, rod case on the right? Mebbe....
by Neffi on March 9, 2008 7:15 PM
Special Assistance Request!!!
My Nephew is on his second tour in Iraq. His first tour was interesting enough for him to make one of those docu-dramas on the Discovery Channel. And interesting enough to where we couldn't tell his father he was being interviewed on television...Michael is a medic. So much for background.
The Internet being a wonderful thing, I asked Mikey what he might need in the way of supplies. The first time at his FOB he needed the usual, baby wipes, tuna, instant oat meal etc. This time the war seems much easier to collect what the troops need and his list was a little more difficult. It pretty much could have been sent by any American from any of our last three wars. There was only one thing I could possibly supply, hookers being very difficult to ship through an APO.
Your opinion please: would it be OK if I shipped a "Mr Beer" Delux home micro brewing unit with three recharges??? There is no alchohol. It's like shipping food. And until you add water and let it cook, there's no beer. St Paddy's day is coming and you know the rest...
by Fishmugger on March 9, 2008 8:51 PM
You can ship it, and it will *probably* make it through customs, maybe not. And he's not responsible for relatives...
If it does, and he makes beer, and gets caught?
Well, then it depends on his commander.
I would want to know more about his CO before I shipped him an "automatic" Article 15.
Especially if he's career minded.
If he's not... well, let your conscience be your guide.
He's not re-upping again and he gets out just after his return. His father has remodeled the family home to accomodate his return and new family. The Army is going to loose one hell of a Medic.
I'll be more careful next time.
by Fishmugger on March 9, 2008 9:38 PM
Fishmugger, that's a great thought, but don't ship it. Mr. Beer is great little gizmo, makes some great brew, but General Order #1 says no to homebrewing, the fun police already thought of that. Grrrrrr....
by SFC D on March 9, 2008 10:16 PM
Apparently things are more slack among the Brits. On a blog I looked at from time to time, the blogowner's acquaintance asked her to send him some "Listerine" to his posting in Af'stan. Seems it went through. Tanqueray with a little extra food coloring. Mint flavor, y'know.
Oh, you can defeat those tamper-resistant screw caps if you have a pocketknife and are willing to waste a bottle of the horrible blue-green Listerine which nobody should ever buy anyway, the original formula being better, as is usual.
Standard Pattern 08 Web Equipment with the tag end of the right brace unfettered. Additional kit/pouches could be added to the brace ends. The Left brace is also visible sans additions such as grenade pouch or rod case.
Cheers
by J.M. Heinrichs on March 10, 2008 1:52 AM
Trenches! D'oh! How could I look at a WWI photo and not think trenches?
Fascinating use of the bayonet as a spoon holder. My education continues....
For a readable version of that graphic - click here.
The L96 sniper rifle and the L115A3 Long Range Rifle are used by military snipers in all the Brit Services.
Designed to achieve first-round hit at 600m and harassing fire out to 1100m, the Accuracy International L96 sniper rifle has been upgraded with a new 3-12 x 50 sight and spotting scope.
The L115A3 Long Range Rifle fires an 8.59mm bullet, heavier than the 7.62mm round of the L96, and less likely to be deflected over extremely long ranges.
Indeed. It is. Now that it's been used in a Long Distance Rifle - look to hoplopansies to demand it be banned. Or better yet - all ammo larger than 8mm!
And it's not a close-up of a fromkitz gear, edge-on, that is only 2mm big but photo'd to appear ginormous, either.
Just in case Bill shows up.
Let's make it a two-fer. What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you see this picture? I'm guessing your answer will tell us something about you and your life to date.
Ha, first thing I thought of too! I'm going to guess that it's some sort of playback device. The cup-shaped part on the left has a small wire attaching it to the main body, so that's where the signal could be transferred. Shot in the dark, I'm going to say this is WWI era, so comms were probably quite difficult. Hand crank to make it play because batteries weren't terribly effective at all back then. Kind of like a phonograph that can be broken down for easy transport.
Second pic?
Some poor fool is about to have a REALLY bad day when he catches that grenade.
by Ninjafluff on March 7, 2008 8:11 AM
Hand-operated combination device:
sausage grinder and meat slicer.
by Erik in Colo on March 7, 2008 8:19 AM
Um, the guy in the second pic is going to fall on his arse when he pulls the trigger 'cause his stance is not so good for handling the recoil?
First photo, electrical sound device powered by hand crank. I would think it was for signals.
Second photo, .303 Short Magazine Lee Enfield, with a grenade launching capability. The grenade looks more modern than the rest of the outfit, and the soldier is an apparent, "Demonstrator, post!" type individual because of his clean uniform, wall backdrop, and the safety appears to be in the forward or off-safe position.
But what do I know, I'm an old ER nurse.
Airborne, All the Way!
Alan Briley, RN
by Alan Briley, RN on March 7, 2008 9:17 AM
Second picture is the origin of the RPG.
As I recall, they found it to be more dangerous to the user than the enemy. I don't recall the actual make and model of the unit but it was made to keep soldiers from carrying a second device for such purpose.
Number1: It looks like an electromechanical device but no batteries no cord it's kind of odd really. It's awfully looking like that dude pulls a ripcord like a mower. Which might make this a signal generator.
Second picture is WWI era from the uniform (esp the helmet). Early grenade launcher? I'm guessing a plate from a training manual or manufacturer's catalogue? It's obviously a 'studio' shot.
The top one - Hand crank leads me to think about the same vintage - possibly a bit later from the shoe styling, but then men's shoes and trousers don't give as many clues as women's kit.
The photo shoot (casual, not staged) means later - non-box camera, but whatzit has an almost deco styling in the base. It would help if we could see another elevation of the 'face' plate. That cup-shaped appratus to the left is positionable along the vertical axis (hand crank again).
Pic 1: The early model Pinnacup combined both collection and laboratory assessment capabilities. It was the electrical interface that caused it to be dropped in favor of collectors, observers, and additional duty officers.
Pic 2: That is one vertically challenged individual being used as a demonstrator. Perhaps a former Welsh rugby hooker?
by Hunter on March 7, 2008 1:55 PM
Using a rifle grenade (longish-range) and bayonet (short-range) at the same time strikes me as rather odd. Was this a normal thing to do? And then there's the bonus hazard of loading the grenade with that pointy thing attached. And, as others have noted, the whole shoulder-firing business. And he seems to be looking upward, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me; weren't there special grenade-launching sights? What's he looking at up there?
(All of which may tell you that I've never been trained in the use of rifle grenades nor bayonets.)
The contraption in the first photo looks like a diabolical instrument for extracting confessions from coffee beans.
And yes, Sir John, you are EVIL (and causing me to waste time at work LOL).
It's nice to see others are baffled, too, and that we have consensus on the era of that "far too well turned out" young man in the second picture. The mind hesitates to think what will happen if the grenade clips the bayonet!
by Karla (threadbndr) on March 7, 2008 2:04 PM
Eric - you are correct, your commentary *does* tell me that...
But to answer some of your questions...
...I just deleted all that - I'll make it part of the post where I do the reveal!
1st pic. Crude version of an early warning listening device to locate aircraft? Can't tell if the larger disc is a mic or not, but if so, then cup on the side would be the speaker? Handles for making adjustments to pinpoint the source of the noise?
Pic 2, some poor hopeful with a rifle grenade. As stated above.
by Kevin on March 7, 2008 6:24 PM
I'm late to this, but the large egg-shaped housing looks like either a motor or a generator. The operator's right hand may be holding a pull handle or an aiming handle, I'd guess pull handle, as in an earlier mention of a recoil lawnmower starter. The cup to the left has an adjustment, but in one axis only, and it seems pretty beefy for a tuning crank for a sound generator. The slot on the 'starter' mechanism is going to end up being significant, too, but it is too small to be a shotgun trap. This is sort of like 'the blind men and the elephant', each piece looks like something else.
No, it's not real, silly. But it is funny. Especially if you are old enough to remember their fielding, when people were giving up the manly M14 for this thing!
I know it's silly. You know it's silly. But you'd probably get rich collecting ten bucks from every vet who'd swear to "I didn't have one that said "mattel" but I know this dude that did..."
I didn't have one made by Mattel, but in basic training I had an M16A1 stamped "General Motors, Hydramatic Division"...
by SFC D on March 5, 2008 8:30 AM
I had one in basic stamped Harrington and Richardson. I thought, "Cool. I have a really fine rifle here." Not.
by Fred on March 5, 2008 9:04 AM
I was, at various times and places, issued a Colt, a Hydramatic, and a H&R.
Then I started getting pistols (or my fave, my M3A1...). Because I had some knowledge of .45's, I indulged myself and at various times had a Union Switch and Signal and a Singer. Mostly, I carried a Remington-Rand.
The AR-15 I was issued was built by Acoustic Research and came with a jack for my Walkman and a cup holder so you wouldn't spill your drink while on the range. We had to qualify at 1000 inches and in those days I could chuck a rock farther and cause more damage. We figured the Air Force bought it through Boys Life.
I lust after the chance to get a nice M1 carbine made by Rock-Ola, and then have the Hughes Amendment repealed, so that I might do the M2 conversion to it.
Rock 'n Roll!
Maybe I should get a C&R license, and specialize in weird substitute-standard arms.
I think it would be hilarious to say, "Come on over to my place, and I'll show you my Johnson!"
I swear, you allistic people will cause the collapse of Western Civilization, and are probably provably already doing so. "American Idol", "People Magazine", "youtube", and MSM generally, well, I just cringe from all of that.
Effin' monkeys!
I think I might have another 20 years left, if I take care of myself. I'd rather give up all of my (admittedly slight) chances of getting laid, in any way, for the rest of my life, in exchange for having responsible Constitutional government restored to us.
Not that I object to lighthearted smartassedness; I'd be happy to co-operate with Chief Bill to buy each of us a rifle chambered in .219 Improved Zipper.
First up was a planning meeting for the next Rotary year (starts in July) with the new board and incoming President, that shot the bolt for the morning. Good meeting, in that "all volunteer" board kind of way.
The afternoon, well, that was time for a little putting the Demesne to the purpose *I* had in mind when we bought it last summer - a place to exercise the Arsenal of Argghhh!
First up was the L1A1. I knew it was going to shoot low, the front sight post was extremely high, and I was right it shot low and to the right. More disturbingly, out of six rounds, at least three bullets tumbled, as you can see in this pic. I quit firing at that point. Milsurp weapons are always a crap shoot, and some, shoot crappy. I was using remanufactured ammunition, too - but it was the same ammo I was shooting in the M1A, however. I'm going to have to slug the bore and do some tweaking on the L1A1. Anyone with similar experience is invited to share their collected wisdom on the subject.
Since the center of the target was still available, I used it for the M1A. Shooting standing, supported, iron sights. Have I mentioned I *like* the M1A? If I were going to go shoot in the competition in Colorado in May, this would be the rifle I would take. Nine rounds, no flyers. The one in the lower right is one of the flyers from the L1A1. The M1A and I are tuned together.
This is from the Bushmaster ORC. I was aiming at the center of the cutout in the picture. 100 ft, standing, supported, with 2 power scope. 1st group is to the right. I adjusted the scope, yielding the center group. Adjusted again, and the 3 shot small group went where I wanted it, if by then I was getting a little impatient with my trigger pull. The 25 degree temp may have had something to do with it, too.
The pistols were just for plinking. I've not shot the P38 since I bought it. If it didn't shoot any better for it's previous owner than it did for me... I understand why it got captured. The Luger shot just fine, as it always does.
Take your FNFAL over to www.falfiles.com and ask your questions. The folks there will probably be able to diagnose the problem on the L1A1.
by emdfl on February 25, 2008 5:03 AM
I was in AIM Surplus some years back with $400 in my pocket to spend. I passed on a Century L1A1 and chose a CETME instead. The main selling point was that the price of it left me enough cash to buy a case of 7.62 NATO also, 80s South African surplus, if I remember right.
The CETME is a fine shooter, but I always wondered if I shouldn't have bought the FN instead. Now, seeing those tumblers from your's makes me feel a little better about that choice I made 6 or 7 years ago. :-)
BTW, that's some darned fine shooting with that M1A!
by Gun Trash on February 25, 2008 9:01 AM
Heh. I got the L1A1 because it was Brit and fit in the collection as a combat-used gun, this particular one, mebbe too much time on the range or at Goose Green.
Not that I have any provenance to suggest this particular weapon is one that made the trip to the Falklands.
I swear, with that M1A, the rifle improves the shooter.
The quick answer, CB, is whatever the standard twist for the L1A1 (inch pattern FAL) is, and... since I'm not at home and I can't remember the details on the ammo, I'll check tonight.
The point you made about milsurps being a crap shoot is true more often than not. And unless it's totally shot out with no lands, I defy the non-gunsmith to look down a barrel and accurately declare its condition.
And like you posted, even a gunsmith would want to slug it before offering a professional opinion.
A non-professsional stab at it here... could a bad crown cause that?
...we did have a winter storm blow through that caused us to lose connectivity to the satellite. We got around 8 inches of snow in about 5 hours. The fluffy, heavy, wet stuff. Fortunately, it came with enough wind that it didn't build up too much on the trees, which haven't had a chance to recover from the ice storm yet.
Saturday, I did take off to get some work done 'round the Castle while the weather briefly permitted. That involved schlepping all the downed limbs from the ice storm of December and building a funeral pyre for them. It's green wood, so it took all day to burn the debris of the 6 trees in the immediate area, what with cutting them up and piling them on, and keeping the fire hot enough to burn green wood without too much smoke (it was all Chinese Elm).
Sunday, we got hit with the snow, and the temps were back in the teens. So, I worked on the Vickers guns in the basement.
I have two versions of the Vickers, the corrugated water jacket and the later smooth water jacket. I keep them (generally) in WWI configuration for the corrugated jacket gun, and WWII Indirect Fire configuration for the smooth jacket. Both are ex-Turkish guns. The smooth jacket sits in an Australian WWII tripod, the other in the original Turk tripod, which sits higher, and has provision for an anti-aircraft extension in the long leg of the tripod. Purists are gouging out their eyes already, as I've got mixed parts and bits from all the users of the Vickers - Brit, Aussie, Kiwi, South African, Canadian, and Indian, too. Part of the appeal of the gun to me is all the users, and the true interchangeability of the parts. Purists are also tearing their hair at the anachronism on the corrugated jacket gun as currently displayed... Let's see if there are any purists present who will point it out...
These particular guns are dummies made by Sarco. As such, they have thicker-than-original sideplates, and do not have the recoil plates installed. The reason for the thicker sideplates is so that the recoil plates *cannot* be installed, making it much harder to rework the guns into a shootable condition. They are also minutely longer than the original receivers, so that the locks will not come far enough forward to actually strip a round from the belt. The Vickers/Maxim locks (Vickers on the left, Maxim on the right in the linked picture) are fully capable of firing a cartridge without the cartridge being in the chamber. The firing pins on the locks have been nipped, so that they won't protrude through the lock - but since the locks can be removed, idiots and the ignorant could still get themselves in real trouble.
Another artifact of this particular ATF-approved design is that the maker didn't want to do to the extra effort to drill and tap holes for the "check lever," which is a prominent component of the Vickers gun. It served to help regulate the firing speed of the gun and to prevent the charging handle from moving too far when the gun starts to wear. Simply put, they didn't come with the guns. The guns were also missing the tripod stop (which was a Brit variation not present on the Turk guns). While all the other bits and pieces were present, some weren't in the best of shape, so I spent the day cleaning and repairing and doing some arranging in the display. I'm going to build some stepped shelves to put the gunners kits and platoon parts chest, etc, on.
So, I went digging into the bits and pieces I've been collecting for 11 years now (I started after SWWBO gave me the early version of the gun for Christmas before we got married) and spent a lazy afternoon epoxying on the check levers (after some judicious grinding off of two bosses that would have fit into the sideplate), cleaning up some rust that was starting to show through the paint, replacing water plugs that didn't have the heat resistant scales on them with ones that did. And more stuff like that. I'll behead some screws to put in the screw holes on the check lever mounting plates - because I'm too lazy to drill and tap, too.
I then swapped the WWII gun so that it faces the wall, and a visitor can see the dial sight and clinometer of the indirect fire configuration (as well as the gunner's end of the gun) and the WWI gun is facing the viewer, to give them access to that view. I then arranged a good chunk of the bits and pieces around (there's more, believe me) to add visual appeal and provide props when I drone on about the guns to unsuspecting visitors. Still plenty of work to do, but I thought I'd share a window into the slow progress on the Arms Room of Argghhh!
Oh, and if you'd like to own a shootable Vickers - there is one available right now. Aside from not being legal in Kansas (and because it's a sideplate gun, possibly not in Missouri, either - though an original would be), the price is one reason why I don't own any shooters.
Well, how about an essay on the sideplates and recoil plates, with dimension drawings. And advice on how to set up the machine tools, and what to say to the nice BATFE man?
It was just a busy week, with the Dole Institute panel discussion, and several other evening events, plus I'm working a new task that is just sucking up the brain cells as I get up to speed as the powerlifter running with the gazelles...
So, yesterday I joined two of my good Rotary buddies, Beau and Jim, to set up a WWI-themed table at the Fort Leavenworth Militaria show yesterday.
The young gent on the left is Beau. Ladies and gents - meet a guy with more stuff than I have. Beau's coolest contribution to our table was his collection of rare M1911's. As in - he has an M1911 .45 that was made by the Canadian company North American Arms... one of 100 they made before the war ended and the contract was cancelled. Oddly enough, I was too excited about all the other stuff to take a picture... Beau also had his Pedersen Device...
...complete with holster, transit case, magazine and boxes of ammo...
My contribution was the Castle's Auld Vick, the corrugated water jacket version of the Vickers Medium Machine Gun, in a WWI configuration.
Since I had both Gunner's kits, the platoon parts chest and other stuff out for the display, I went through and did an inventory of the parts I had - and found I actually did have the spares I needed to bring both guns up to full (legal) spec, and to get the WWII smooth-jacketed gun into WWII indirect fire condition, and the WWI into a more complete Great War config.
So I spent this afternoon swapping parts, replacing parts, and in general playing... Armorer...
Life is good - at least until the Nanny State decides that even deactivated guns are too dangerous for mere mortals. Even ones they trusted with nuclear weapons..
I really was having fun - even if that pic up top looks like I was contemplating the horror of another Clinton Presidency with a Democratic House and Senate to run roughshod over everybody and everything... which I say because I don't trust the Republicans to fight as hard as the Dems do when they're out of power...
I knew if I waited, I would see some killer (pun intended!) firearms related blogging this weekend. Way to go, John!
Alan
by Alan Briley, RN on February 3, 2008 8:05 PM
So John, will you be able to con your employer into a business related trip to Carlise before the end of the first week in April?
I mean, AWC is running their annual SDME next month...I'm gonna be stuck working for SOUTHCOM, but maybe Fidel & Raul will kick it in the exercise to make my life interesting.
There are some good pubs/grills in town, if you need motivation...gotta love a place named Alibis (run by retired O6s, no less)
Heartless - sadly, no. While the guys I share a building with will be there, The team I work with has its focus in different areas of the country than Carlisle.
Well, Mr. Flea - Beau is close by. And I know a third guy in the area who is on a par with Beau and I. Between the three of us, we could outfit a battalion, easily.
Though I'm pretty sure the S4 would commit suicide trying to keep track of the ammo requirements.
We'd have to try to organize the companies by caliber... Rather than Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta and Echo companys we'd have 30.06, 7.62 Nato, 7.62x54, and .303 Companys...
I should mention that today's choice for ice breaking (the pond will now support the weight of the horses) was driven by ammunition constraints - I used the Castle's historically and regionally appropriate M1884 Ramrod Bayonet Springfield Trapdoor Rifle.
Did they have people like you in mind when they designed that bayonet, John?
I used an '84 at Bisley back in the 70's - it beat a 7.62 FN at 600 yards.
BTW, I like Crazy Einar's choices, but I've never heard of a short MODEL smelly.
by rikkochet on January 4, 2008 12:54 PM
Rikkochet wins the "what's wrong with this post" prize regarding Einar's bit. To be truly pedantic, it would be the Rifle #1, Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield, but who around here would be like that?
As for the ramrod bayonet, they sucked. And the M1903 version wasn't any better. They are too thin and nowhere near rigid enough to properly stick anything, bending too easily, and aren't useful for anything else - except maybe as pointers, when removed.
I suppose you could use 'em to roast marshmallows...
Heh. Sometimes I wonder if John hovers, waiting to pounce on my typos, as he darts in to snark me even while I'm in edit mode fixing my fat-finger'd faux pas...
Got any AK's or M-4's in a SpongeBob motif? I love SpongeBob.
Heck, I'd fire a "John Kerry the War Hero" or a "Hillary in '08" model as long as it has full-auto!!!
Well, maybe not really...... but get me that SpongeBob model and IT'S ON!!!
by JihadGene on January 4, 2008 10:14 PM
Einar seems to be Mike Williamson, actually, and I think that's his own daughter Megan holding the AR-15 with can and pink furniture, which he made for her. Note her excellence in observing Rule #3.
Barmy, you should check out his site, wherein he discusses getting gurlz in shape for the military without breaking them. (He trained his wife into shape, at 30-something)
I did find yer previous blog and read most of it. Couldn't stop.
I am hoping to hire on in a chipper squad as throttleman when Mike achieves world domination. I have some professional experience with that method of execution, though only with vegetables, so far.
When your internet access is slow, television blows, and what the heck, you own a farm with a pond, gotta get water for the horses, own a few guns, and have some time on your hands... what's an Armorer to do?
Well, go shoot, of course. But for a noble purpose! To break up the ice on the pond so the horses can get to it to drink...
At the same time, I can show off the Castle's newest acquistion... SWWBO's Christmas present. That's right, guys, I got my wife a rifle for Christmas and it was *appreciated!* I bask in the green glow of your envy. KCSteve and Heartless Lib excluded, since they found similar women. Heh. Ya shoulda seen the reaction at the office when I told my compatriots of my gift-giving acumen. The opinion was universal that I was making a HUGE MISTAKE. Hah.
So, meet SWWBO's new bangstick. She's been wanting a "black rifle" for a long time. She likes the SKS (especially the Albanian) but she was hoping for something with a little less kick, but still serviceable as a varmint gun - the coyotes around here have been sniffing around the chicken/guinea coop, and the cats like to sneak out now and again, and SWWBO wants to be able to deal with predators should the need arise.
If you'd like to see it a little closer... click here.
Okay, on to unscientific experimentation. Which rifle/caliber choice works best for breaking up the ice - at least this particular form of ice, being a couple of inches thick, but not really rock hard. Now, if you recall last week I mentioned that I had already done a little ice-breaking, using my 1916 dated Mosin-Nagant M91 and my SVT-40 carbine (which might be an actual carbine, or might be one of the fakes that came out of Finland, the provenance is murky on the issue). One of the reasons I decided to try it at all is that with the ice storm, walking down the rocky hill to the edge of the pond was treacherous. With the rifle I could stand on top of the hill, on level ground by the gate, and break up the ice without risking my ample behind and limbs clambering down the hill carrying an axe or pick.
The fodder being used was Sellier and Bellot 7.62x54R 180 grain ball. The 5.56mm for the Bushmaster was Black Hills Ammunition 55 grain ball. I'll have to try softpoints next.
One a whim, I shot 10 rounds from the SVT, and 20 from the Bushmaster (hey, I *said* unscientific).
The is the result - 7.62 on the left, 5.56 on the right. In overall terms, the 7.62 dd a better job... but both would have been sufficient for the purpose - especially as the horses enlarge the holes themselves. If you're curious about the partial melt on the pond - it's spring fed, and the way the spring empties into the pond causes a current against the bank on this side of the pond.
So, there ya go, a quick and dirty examination of what tools to use for ice-breaking out at Castle Argghhh! If this was MIssouri, and the Castle Vickers or Maxims were functional... much less the Carl Gustaf or M18 recoiless rifles...
To close this out - below the fold in the flash traffic/extended entry I've posted a picture of a Sarah BradySchumerRodhamStein nightmare...
I'd expect the 7.62x54R to do better - the round is what, twice the size and with a bullet three times the mass? But SWBO's new toy can deliver those smaller rounds a lot quicker.
And I'll bet you just don't want to give her a bayonet for reasons of, shall we say... personal safety (what with your tendency to attract the pointy end).
I would think a shotgun would be more effective then a rifle because you get a larger punch into the ice. Or better yet take black power pour into plastic jug and let the explosive breakup the ice. Also you don't have the lead in the water to upset the fish or horses with the funny after taste of lead.
Very nice! And add me to the "lucky guy" list Mrs. Pogue (aka "Her Accuracy") has her own gun safe. While hers and my collection don't rival the Armorer's, it's still enough to get the brady bunch hyperventilating.
Have you considered trying .45-70 for ice breaking duty? Once in a while it's fun to feel that kick!
My wife has the Bushmaster with the 20" heavy barrel, shoots rabid thingies and coyotes with it too. She also has that tricked out Glock 23 in .40 calibre she carries for woods-walking and shopping. I taught her to shoot, (I'm a old drill sergeant and Top-Team Sniper, USA) and she is an excellent student. She loves me, too...weird!
Merry Christmas, and God Bless you and yours!
With you in thought and cares,
ParatroopRN
by Alan Briley, RN on December 21, 2007 7:58 PM
Damian wins the thread.
Some kinda mortar would obviously work better, projo comes straight down, something like the coehorn anti-kitty mortar we know about. Hmm, I wonder what's possible without provoking BATFEcal reactions.
Well, yeah, Trias, but not enough that any critter would notice, I reckon. Do the math. Concentration counts for a lot, in chemistry. This is not waterfowl scarfing down itty bitty lead shot with their mud dinners; those pieces shoot big jacketed bullets, not what any bird would pick as good gizzard gravel.
Here's a thought buy a stock tank or two and be sure the horses have a drink when they want it without expending rounds multidaily.
Side note ... the son completed Robin Sage and is now qualified to wear the Green Beret as an 18 Echo.
He is home for Christmas... I can't tell you how happy his family is ... and he returns to Bragg New Year's Eve to graduate from the JFK School of Special Warfare on the 11th of Jan. Then a bit more leave here at home ... and then to a unit that typically deploys to Afganistan.
Jim, Hooah! to the Son. As for your other suggestion, sure, I could buy some large plastic stock tanks, and put a heater in 'em.
And then... run 100 meters or so of hose, wrapped with heat tape, to keep 'em filled... or trench out a water line from the house main and only heat tape the exposed portions... meaning run power out there, too. Or get a water tank for the Ranger and SWWBO could schlep water out there daily. Prolly better to just get a surplus water buffalo (water trailer to you non-military types) that we can schlep around... Or, I could just go shoot 10 rounds or so every other day (the horses oft times keep the area clear).
This is the Castle, man. What do you think I'm going to do?
Reader "Bystander" gets it 95% right in his response to this post, which is a continuation of this post.
This is a RPG-7 close-up view, the part in the upper left corner is the trigger group (typical silver-ish finish) with the safety in view.
The metal band in the middle is one of the 2 metal rings that secures the rear sight of the RPG-7 to the launcher body. The rear sight can be seen in the lower right corner, slighly off-centered to help right handed shooters. (the RPG7 isnt ambidextrous)
The sling visible under is of the russian Canvas type and has the same rivets that AK Series weapons use. The small part visible at the lower left is probably the "rear" grip.
Yes, and no. We're not exactly sure what its designation is, actually. As we'll show in a bit, and perhaps some of you smart guys will have an answer. And the "safety" that Bystander refers to is in fact the hammer - the RPG is fired via a percussion cap.
But constructively - yes. It *is* an RPG-7.
A -7, not the much more commonly seen RPG-7V, which has provision for the optical sight. This launcher does not. The visual puzzle I posed in the first post was simply of that portion of an RPG launcher you don't normally see - the portion of the barrel that is covered by the heat shields. In yesterday's post, aside from the close-up, the only thing I did was orient the picture in a way that again, you weren't used to seeing a launcher - though many, if not most of you, have never actually seen an RPG launcher up close anyway. This example came without the wood scales that normally cover the front and rear hand-grips. For display purposes, I have a set of modified East German scales I use. The interesting aspect of that is... the grips on this version *do not* scale correctly to other RPG-7s. Both grips are slightly smaller, the front grip more so than the rear grip. And the actual structure of the foregrip is different, too.
The provenance provided with this launcher when it entered Castle stocks in the late 1990's was that it had come out of Israel and was of home-made Palestinian origin. This was plausible, as it came from the same container that held the Carl Gustav 84mm recoiless rifle in the Castle Arms Room, which, while Swedish-made, has clear Israeli markings on it. But there was no documentation to support this, just the word of the importer, repeating what I assume the Israeli brokers told him.
All of this came up recently, when a Marine Gunner dropped a note on me asking if I could give him pictures of the launcher. Among his many other duties (the Armorer worships the ground a Marine Gunner walks on) he puts together books for deploying Marines on the foreign gear they may encounter while deployed. He was looking for some decent pics of RPGs and stumbled into the Armory of Argghhh! Which had a (admittedly) crappy pic, and did I have any good ones? I didn't. So I took some for him. And we had a back and forth about the launcher - the gist of which I supply below the fold in the Flash Traffic/Extended Entry.
I compared the weapon (sans furniture) with some of the photos I took at Koblinka and many of the ones from my digital library (enclosed pic) and I am still confused to some degree.
With the exception of the area near the firing pin well - and this may just be a trick of shadows versus light between the pictures - the launchers look to be the same.
--Warning Preachy Diatribe to follow-- [Note, the Armorer will *take notes* when being preached at by Marine Gunners - Gunners, not Gunnery Sergeants. *NOT* the same thing.]
The launcher in the pictures you sent may be "rough around the edges" but it is machined - and machined to at level of tolerance that I do not think the PLO of the 1980s (or any era) would have been able to replicate, at least not without some benefactor or good-neighbor support. More on that thought below.
As you know the PLO and most of its evolutionary / revolutionary clones / splinters / offshoots (Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Qassam, Fatah, Tanzim, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, etc.) have always produced organic weapons to some extent or another. What they have all had in common is the overall "crappiness" in the realm of quality control. (Look at the present day Yassin RPG-2 clone).
The best the clandestine workshops in the Gaza Strip have been able to spew forth to date are weapons such as the al Batar RPG, Qassum and al Quds (101 & 102). These are a mix of pipes laid on sandbags (the more sandbags, the higher the elevation) usually pointed in the general direction of the nearest Jewish settlement and/or IDF soldier and fired. (When I say "fired" of course, I am using the term in the loosest definition known to mankind. Wicker fuses, Det Cord, old sweaters, road flares, Bic lighters, the "Comm wire and 9 volt battery combo", etc.will continue to ensure the weapons remain as much a threat to the users as to the intended target).
Even their BM-21 clone, the Quds-3, is not really built by them. Tehran pretty much sent an Iranian factory into Gaza in order to set up production - right under the ever watchful U.N. of course.
I believe the launcher was indeed used by the PLO and arrived to you vis-à-vis Israel as you stated - not that I doubted your word - but I would bet a month's pay it was built in Egypt or Syria for Mr. Arafat's boys club as both had reversed engineered the RPG-7 by the late 1970's. (If it was made last week I would have linked it to Iran as they produce three RPG-7 clones - a straight clone, the Sahgheh and the Sahgheh "Commando" - but I do not think Iran had sufficiently transitioned yet from the Shah's regime to the point were they could start funding every anti-Jewish / anti-Western group on the planet.)
The writing on the data plate is still kicking my butt though. I have a trigger assembly from a Yassin and the only mark on the "data plate" area is bullet ding and a crude triangle of sorts. Usually, similar weapons from the glorious sons of Allah reference one of two verses from the Koran - “Only those from the true flock of Allah are victorious”, or “Slay them wherever you catch them - or the “Shahadah”, the Islamic declaration of belief, which states, "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah." (Don't ask me why I know this - I actually have a life and hotty wife.)
This is the offending pistol grip:
Anyway - there you have it - an RPG-7, true origin unknown, last known user... believed to be the PLO.
Update: Oh, and if anyone is concerned... the portions of the barrel that unscrew are welded together. There is a bore-diameter hole cut in the largest section of the bore (visible in the photos) and the firing pin is missing, having been removed and replaced with a fusion-welded rod that prevents a rocket from being loaded into the launcher - in other words, it has been demilled to the standards required for legal import in effect at the time of import. The Castle does *not* own an operational RPG-7 launcher. Yes, the question got asked.
Damn, that was so close : )
I've never seen a launcher without the heatshields, that's an interesting picture. I also learned about the "hammer", i guess it makes sense to have an external one right here !
by bystander on December 6, 2007 1:29 PM
RPG-7 from Small Arms Review, with more stuff to see.
Cheers
by J.M. Heinrichs on December 6, 2007 3:46 PM
Back in the early 90s, I saw an Uzi which was "of PLO origin". It was very well made but bereft of markings; further information on its providence was not given. My $.02CDN.
Cheers
by J.M. Heinrichs on December 6, 2007 4:03 PM
And I note, CAPT H, that the markings and pistol grip of the Castle's RPG-7 differ from any of those in the SAR article. I'll have to send them a link to the post and see what they have to say.
Almost looks like a 1903 Springfield sight on the chamber area, but what looks like a bedding lug isn't very 1903-ish... So I'll go out on a limb and say it's a Mauser variant, maybe with a Manlicher stock to explain that extra hardware on the barrel.
This is a RPG-7 close-up view, the part in the upper left corner is the trigger group (typical silver-ish finish) with the safety in view.
The metal band in the middle is one of the 2 metal rings that secures the rear sight of the RPG-7 to the launcher body. The rear sight can be seen in the lower right corner, slighly off-centered to help right handed shooters. (the RPG7 isnt ambidextrous)
The sling visible under is of the russian Canvas type and has the same rivets that AK Series weapons use. The small part visible at the lower left is probably the "rear" grip.
You're right, JTG, but those rings (?) round the thing look too weak to be part of a gun. And as for trunnions, knowing John they're out of the picture.
Meet the Black Knight, a semi-autonomous robot combat vehicle built as a corporate venture by BAE, and currently being evaluated as a technology demonstrator by the Army.
Smaller than a Bradley, bigger than a HMMWV. And unmanned. It's controlled by a guy inside that Bradley. And has the ability to operate on it's own, in a limited fashion, for navigation. It does use many Bradley components.
Both of those elements are why that muzzle brake is bunged. It's hard to control a remote control vehicle using a TV screen.
Speaking of the gun... those of you, like Pat, who were zeroing in on 30/40mm chain guns, especially the Alliant TechSystems ones, were sniffing very close. ATK did indeed make that muzzle brake, out of aluminum, as a one-off for BAE.
The gun isn't real. It's decorative. Because the Army isn't quite ready yet for armed semi-autonomous robots that are armed and armored like that. What's that you say? SWORDS, the armed robots currently in Iraq? There's no autonomy there. They do what human controllers tell them to do - not what a software algorithm thinks might be a good idea.
Oh - and yeah, it was too out there in the wild for you to find. But now it's out there much more clearly, from a photographic standpoint.
And all you fellas should walk with your heads hanging in shame.
With regard to the scuffs on the muzzle brake, my first thought (back when you mentioned that scale was an issue) was that it WAS due to it running into - or BEING run into - a wall or something like that. But I was thinking more along the lines of it being used as a battering ram of sorts which didn't make any sense so I discarded the idea. Seems I was close.
I remember when a 1RCHA M109 driver put the muzzle brake into the back window of a German bus during an exercise in 1991. A 105mm howitzer being towed by a 5 ton on an icy road ended up upside down being dragged on the splinter shield. I was also told of a Cdn Leo turret not being properly secured and going for a few rotations during a train move and taking out some elctrical stuff(I don't know if this really happened or not). When it comes to AFV barrels being damaged, nothing really surpises me.
by Pat on November 8, 2007 10:37 PM
Pat, when we fielded the long-tube M109A2/3s in Germany in 1980 (the M109 tube didn't extend much past the end of the chassis, the long tube extended 5 feet past) *every* wall in the motor bays of the first battery to bring their guns in for their initial service had holes punched in the wall. The rest of us were quicker to learn...
In the brief bit of time between finishing my expense voucher and heading back to the airport to head for Vegas and the Blogworld Expo, I better put up another installation of the Whatzis saga before HomeFront Six crawls through the digital pipe and grabs me by the neck and shakes me like a puppy.
Okay. We'll change tack here. Yesterday I gave hints as to the *mount* this thing was in. Let's take a look at the running gear of what this thing is mounted *on*.
Not sure yet, but I'm going with 'not life sized'.
by MCart on November 7, 2007 10:12 AM
Korean, kneels down to fire?
by MajMike on November 7, 2007 10:35 AM
Well looks like one of those flame throwing thingamajigers with those whatchmacallits. But I don't know much about those types of doohinkies.
Just came by to thank you for helping out the AF team in the auction. Glad to see you're still winning the bid on the John Cox caricature, we all want to see you win that.;o)
It's what your ever-loving big breen amphibious monster tools around in on the battlefield. Can't you recognize the Zillamobile?
The fluted barrel givces away the 25mm Bushmaster gun on that M2/M3 Bradly Infantry Fighting Vehicle!!!
Maybe it's a good thing ya'll don't recognize it off of the bat... I can sneak up to your window sill and steal the pies cooling there at this time of year...
Sgt. B. ~ Let me tell you, it's NOT any kind of a Bradley. I've dug my way through more Wikipedia pages about tracked vehicles, APCs, muzzle brakes, and anything else that remotely resembles anything in the damn pictures and I'm stumped. So don't go gettin' yer BVDs in a bunch. hee hee
Though I do have to say I now KNOW more about said tracked vehicles, APCs, muzzle brakes, and the likes than I did before this flipping "Whatzis" started. Which definitely eliminates me from being anything close to the true definition of a "Lex Babe". Heh. Bummer.
jimb ~ The Lincoln only has 4 wheels and no track so that pretty much eliminates it from the list of possibilities. And the trunk on the above picture isn't as big as the one on the '69 Continental.
I'm going to ask a few questions (whether John answers them remains to be seen):
1.) Can I get more of a hint on scale? Bigger than _____? Smaller than _____? Anything?
2.) Is it an American piece of equipment? (If nothing else, this will narrow down the options on Wikipedia)
3.) Timeframe of use? WW1? WW2? Etc.?
Anything else? I still have many hours of daylight left to go before tomorrow. A little help? Please?
It's bigger than a breadbox and smaller than an aircraft carrier. It's smaller than a Bradley (which players from the beginning know, because I x'd that possibility when I showed you the barrel), but larger than a Hummer.
It is a product of western technology.
You can look at those tracks, that running gear, those side-skirts and that barrel and muzzle brake and *know* that it wasn't used in one of the great conflagrations of the last century.
However, it's not current, either.
I will be dead to you all when I do the reveal... good thing I'm in Vegas and will be in large, very public venues - but not so public that a large, bearded guy getting his butt kicked by a mob wouldn't be noticed. Especially a mob lead by a cute redhead.
Ok, that helps. Kindasorta. You won't be dead to me when you do the reveal. The "Whatzis" isn't worth that kind of trouble. Besides, I'm not going to Vegas so you're safe there. Though I might just have to kick you in the hiney next May in D.C.
Once my company leaves this evening, I'll be digging back in.
The original picture is that of a muzzle brake. The vehicle on which it is mounted is the Black Knight Unmanned Combat Vehicle. The reason that it wasn't used in one of the great conflagrations of the last century is because it is still in prototype phase.
Don't ask me why the muzzle brake in the original picture is all munged up. I have no clue and I am officially TAPPED OUT.
[Good thing it's your final answer. Because... it's right. Well Done! - the Armorer]
You said "it wasn't used in one of the great conflagrations of the last century."
Did it ever see combat at all, anywhere?
by wolfwalker on November 8, 2007 5:41 AM
Shipmates,
My guess would be a West German Marder. That's what the gun system looks like it's from. Had a coax MG if'n I remember correctly.
I may be wrong, but I'll wager it's a Marder.
Sorry my commenting has been quite light as of late. Lot's of stuff going on on the home front that's taking up time and energy.
Respects,
by AW1 Tim on November 8, 2007 6:55 AM
Shipmates,
Okay... I was wrong. It's not a Marder, although the gun system is probably the same. It's an Austrian ULAN. They were not series produced, but appeared in a recent exercise back around 2003, I believe. The muzzle brake is the clincher, as are the skirts.
And tomorrow, in the reveal, I'll explain why that muzzle brake is bunged up, too.
You may continue.
Oh, you are going to be sooooo annoyed with me. More than you are already. Rod - I really *am* going all "De Sade" on you with this one.
By the way - have you been to the Project Valour-IT auction site yet? C'mon - bid against people you know and like, instead of faceless strangers on eBay! Someone already skunked me out of the Chris Muir cartoon - but I bid the weasel up to $1001 dollars, so s/he hadda want it, eh? And Maggie - that only helps the AF Team, so I needed your $500 to help offset that...
Oh, and while you're at it - skip lunch today at that over-priced restaurant and donate that money instead to Project Valour-IT. You know you want to.
Okay, new guess: Would it be the 25mm cannon atop the WZ551 IFV? I need to go back to Battlefield 2... I swear I've seen that turret on a Chinese Type 92 APC!
by NinjaFluff on November 6, 2007 9:01 AM
Wait just a minute here, this picture reminds me of something obscure ... Back in WW2, the Luftwaffe fitted a bunch of FW-190s with Mk 103 30mm cannon in underwing pods, the better to kill Allied bombers with. This isn't a static display of one of those gun pods, is it? And the muzzle-brake discoloration wouldn't come from a slightly-unpleasant encounter with the ground, would it?
*laughing... quietly, of course... at Maggie's acts of heroism of late*
The auction has some INCREDIBLE items up for sale, including HF6's General Pace challenge coin. I still can't believe she put it up for bid... but I can believe it's going for over $100 now.
by AFSister on November 6, 2007 12:02 PM
Always with the over-engineering!!
by Rod Thorsen on November 6, 2007 12:03 PM
That brass Napoleanic soldier letter-opener dealie is pretty neat, too. I'm sure the current owner hates to part with it; y'all should forget that factory-second bus token and throw your shekels at Team Army!
(scuttling for cover)
by Neffi on November 6, 2007 1:43 PM
(only now noticing that the coin is offered on behalf of Team Army)
...um, Go Team!
by Neffi on November 6, 2007 2:28 PM
I rikey...
Stuka one of two......
by MR. T's Haircut on November 6, 2007 2:28 PM
Homefrontsix, just started my bidding, my alias is Chunks (long story, involving a once cheerful huey flight crew that didn't appreciate that I didn't appreciate their jollies involving unnecessary NOTE flight, hey I had to clean my steelpot, they can clean the ship, seemed fair).
Snerk. Really made HFS wait. Hey, I slept in - I'm on the night mission schedule.
Okay, here's a bit more context.
So, yeah, it's a muzzle brake. And yes, it's kinda bunged up - which is usually not characteristic of muzzle brakes, since they aren't a component of digging tools.
But what's the system it's a component of? And yes, it's out there.
I don't know yet, but that barrel looks terrifically new in comparison to the muzzle break. So, that's a replica or maybe they've been shooting huge amounts of HE or Willie Pete from it, considering the potential corrosive effects of phosphorous.
The fluted barrel and the muzzle brake locknut lead me to believe it's installed on a M242 Bushmaster 25mm Chaingun.
by Pat on November 5, 2007 10:08 AM
Looks too small to be from a tank or artillery... I'm thinking something along the lines of Pat, it's a chaingun of some sort. Best I can come up with is a 25mm Bushmaster, from an OWS-25 mounted on a Valuk ARSV. Something you don't see every day, so it would seem quite up the Armorer's alley!
by NinjaFluff on November 5, 2007 10:36 AM
Ha! Keep in mind you are hours ahead of me. So I didn't have to wait THAT long. And Mother Nature wiped out our power last night so I had to find other things to do...hee hee
And while you are completely wrong in where you are going with that thought... on a different level completely unknown to you, you are also completely right, if for all the wrong reasons.
I've received a complaint that there has been too much toothsome chewy faux-intellectual discourse (or maudlin self-pity) 'round here of late, so here's a Whatzis for you today.
Hey, I wasn't *objecting* to the other stuff; sometimes I actually like a serious moping-and-brooding political piece, and please don't cease, to remind us about people who die for us, it's just nice to have something lighthearted from time to time, which engages the intellect in a fun way.
And, yep, that's a purty pitcher of a purty muzzle brake, but I have no idea what piece it's attached to.
I've been looking at the muzzle break in the WIkipedia pics for the Panzer IV, and that doesn't look like the same thing. The outside of this one is very straight, while the P-IV is flared near the base.
Dusty - I was all set to make a remark just like yours, then I got sucked into trying to find the right match. ;-) Phooey ... I'm going to bed now!
Hmmm.... Yes a muzzle brake, even I can tell that much. Yes a land-based gun, probably a mobile one on an armored vehicle, a tank or tank destroyer.
But a Panzer IV? I agree that it's most likely German, but it doesn't look quite right for the Panzer IV. It looks closer to the Panzer VI (Tiger II). Still doesn't seem exactly right, but that's the closest match I can find.
by wolfwalker on November 4, 2007 8:39 AM
Muzzle Break from self propelled Arty 155mm
by MR. T's Haircut on November 4, 2007 8:41 AM
That is the muzzle brake for a self propelled 152mm or 155mm Howitzer
It is not a M109 series though
by redleg on November 4, 2007 8:51 AM
The active element of the M32A1 combat potato peeler...
*phew*
You said: "You all are falling for the trap that crucifies girls and math."
But what I initially read was "You all are falling for the trap that crucifies GIRTH and math."
I personally prefer girth and geometry when it comes to girls and boys.
by AFSister on November 4, 2007 10:15 AM
OK, I'm off to "bathe".
"soak" in that thought for a while. heh.
by AFSister on November 4, 2007 10:50 AM
If that's a muzzle brake, then somebody's been standing that gun on its nose. Besides which, there's daylight behind the thing, down in the corner, where the rest of the barrel should be. I don't have a clue what it is, but I'm pretty sure what it's not.
Hey John, the new PnZ2000 in AFG - first time Dutch arty guys have fired a shot in anger since the 1950s-and the first use of the PnZ2000 in combat. Good write up in Janes if you have access to such.
Still wish they worked out the salt-water problem and kept that gun on ship. Sniffle.
Thanks for the video link, 'Phibian. We *did* blog about it when they pulled the lanyard. We also blogged it when the USAF delivered the guns to Afstan.
What if we're not blessed with patience? What if we can't wait until tomorrow??? Dangit, man. Help a girl out, would you??
I don't think it's a muzzle brake of any kind (based on the cursory research I've done over the past few hours) because of the wear and such on the tip of it. All of the pictures I've seen don't show that kind of wear and tear on them. And, as Ernie says, the locations of daylight in the picture don't make sense.
After that, I'm stuck. And your "hints" (or lack thereof) aren't penetrating my thick skull either.
I don't deal well with frustration either. Can you tell??
Muzzle brake, wha for? Naval gunner never needed a muzzle brake.
by Old Fat Sailor on November 4, 2007 7:55 PM
HFS - The hints refer to issues of scale. You're falling into the "this is eight inches" trap that we males have used for millenia to keep you gurls out of math, the sciences, and engineering in school. 8^ )
Sky color - the muzzle brake isn't painted. It's natural metal, with a matte finish.
That *itself* is a major hint.
*I'm* having fun anyway!
HFS - I'm shamelessly shilling for the traffic tomorrow... ;^)
Ok, if I understand it right, it's not what we think, but it is a muzzle brake. Uhh, don't we have rules about going DeSade all over the place?
by Rod Thorsen on November 4, 2007 11:58 PM
Hmmm, could be a big whistle, I suppose.
by Rod Thorsen on November 5, 2007 12:00 AM
Snorkal without the ball
by Rod Thorsen on November 5, 2007 12:07 AM
I think this boomstick end is much smaller than supposed. It's just a closeup.
That looks dirty and while I have no doubt big boomsticks get dirty like any other that is not the place i'd expect to find it.
Now this photo looks kinda modern and no self respecting collector would sully their toys or their reps with dirt would they? So perhaps this boomstick is more modern? Perhaps even in use?
The other thing is the rounding seems so smooth, did ww2 era really have that?
Thanks!! I really, truly, without reservation, and with absolutely no attempt to lessen, ameliorate, or in any other way express any form, basis, or expression of sarcasm, doubt or smirminess want to truly and sincerely, thank your very much (read A Fish Called Wanda) for your support in this!!!
Once again, without any coercion or implied force, thanks very, very much.
Regards
Rod
(multiple grins)
by Rod Thorsen on November 5, 2007 12:39 AM
Trias - you have to remember this collector's quirks. He prefers items that are *used* not pristine.
He's in it for the history, the connection to the people who used the artifacts for their intended purpose - not to have something that came off final assembly, was put in a crate, stored for 50 years, then sold off as surplus.
Nope. He wants stuff that crossed the beach, climbed the mountain, hunkered in bunkers, etc.
And the Arms Room hosted our first visitors. Not local collectors and shooters, nor the Armorer's local buds. Not famous and not-so-famous Gun Bloggers. Nope, the first visitors to the Arms Room of Argghhh! were gurls. SWWBO hosted a very small gathering at the Castle this weekend - and Wendy, Tammy, Stacy and SWWBO were the first to visit the mostly-loaded (though still not organized for proper display) Arms Room. They were closely watched by the Exterior Guard and sniffed for contraband (or treats) prior to exiting the Arms Room.
But, 'tis finally done.
Mostly. Kinda. Well, there might be *some* things needing doing. Expansion, even. Just sayin'.
Remember this "I have more guns than I need, but not as many as I want!"
I envy your beautiful room!
Plenty of room left. If you need help squeezing more in, your buddy "B" knows how to fill a gun room.
by John S. on October 28, 2007 7:15 PM
Well, from "B's" perspective, we screwed up the design by covering over the studs and joists with drywall - just *think* of all that storage space we let go to waste!
The only place that I have seen a more varied collection of hand-held weaponry, is the arms museum at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, in Maryland. Where they arguably have the largest collection in the US, if not the world
Dang, never thought that I would see that out of a private citizen.
I have a hard-on just looking at the room. Then you go and fill it up.....we the rest is history.
Thanks for showing what a vault of "Freedom" looks like.
Go Yank Go. This Canuck stands by you.
by Glen on October 28, 2007 11:23 PM
John - that's an impressive display, and a fine room to show off your beauties :-) Best part is, I know you can tell the story of each one.
Some machineguns... I'll let the Vulture Brothers talk about 'em in detail if they'd like - since they all used 'em at one time or another.
Second, some manly guns. Midgets, mind you, but manly nonetheless. Some M119's, grown weary in service in Afghanistan, awaiting the tender loving care of the rebuilders.
The latter pic is provided by a sekrit correspondent in the 'Stan, who will remain forever nameless, at their request - which is sad, because they sends us the nicest pictures! She's a nice, tidy piece, if a bit quirky.
...since they all used 'em at one time or another.
Yeah, but not in the XM-16 configuration. The gunners used the plain vanilla M-60 as a free-gun (handheld, fired John Wayne-style) or the M-60D on doorgun posts. And that *is* the XM-16 config, not the M-6E3 -- that's one of the 7-shot rocket pack tubes, not an 8-shot pod, that's peeking from between the two Em-Seekstees. And the Copperheads used the M-21 system, with minis mounted outboard ILO the M-60s...
Probably sending them back b/c they're using more M777 w/Excalibur GPS guided 155mm. That, and due to their max range of 19K with RAP, and about 11.5K plain jane HE, they're probably worn out from shooting max charge all the time. M119s are not designed to do that over and over and over. The gun will stand it, but the carriage, not so much.
...and because we don't have internet access (dial-up is *not* internet access anymore) until later this week, and I've been busy moving the Arsenal, posting has been light, and this is all I'm probably going to get up today, until I hit the hotel this evening.
Now, the display cases don't have their tops yet, and the rifle racks aren't installed, but loading has commenced, and the place is secure... because with the movement of the Arsenal, we are now prepared to Repel Boarders. Well, we would be if I had inserted a feed strip into that Hotchkiss.
Is that an MG-42 in the foreground of the top picture there? One of the things I've gained watching Burn's "The War" is the way that thing could move rounds down range.
The Afghans are long known for their "home workshop" firearms production, where they make excellent copies of commercially-made weapons that have fallen into tribal hands over the years - especially British weapons.
They are usually visually correct dimensionally (though the parts may not interchange with the original weapon copied), they usually have little signs on them that cause experienced collectors of the originals look twice - such as markings in the wrong places, markings that have reversed letters in them, or, in the base of barrel proofs - markings in the wrong order, or a mix of markings from different arsenals, etc.
John Spangler, who is a reader and frequent commenter in this space (he likes to play the Whatziss') is also a collector who takes his passion so seriously that he makes a living at it (always good to go spend money with John, just click here). He also runs a question and answer board on his website.
Enfield - .36 - 4'' - Rusty - THERE IS NO SERIAL NUMBER ON THE WEAPON. - The weapon appears to be a ''pepperbox'' style percussion cap pistol with six barrels. The caliber appears to .36 Cal. On the left side of the weapon is a crown with VR underneath the crown. Under VR is Enfield and the date 1857. The weapon was purchased in Afghanistan in the Spring 2005. I have not been able to find out any information on Enfield manufacturing a ''pepperbox'' style percussion pistol. Any information about this weapon is greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Answer:
Sir- As with many of the guns found in Afghanistan purported to be antiques, they are not always what they seem. I am not aware of Enfield making any pistols like that ever. Khyber pass guns will be found with all sorts of impossible combinations of markings. This is sort of similar to someone with a rusty 1983 Chevrolet, but putting Model T Ford, or Cadillac Escalade trim on it and hoping someone will buy it. John Spangler
Why is this of interest? Well, Joe and Jeff aren't the only Afghan hounds who hang out around here. I got this email late last week. And it concerns *exactly* the same pistol type in the question above - this one with a different date on it.
Armourer-san: Khyber Garage Camel Cavalry Speciall, sent back during last year's trip to Bagram. Pretty much the same paperwork experience as your ISAF correspondent, though I understand the rigmarole has increased here (I'm back in Bagram for a spell). Same collection of vendors at the bazaar - the guy who sold me the Beast remembers me and is trying to sell me a companion piece.
No last names or email addresses please! - my people think I play piano in a Kabul cathouse and my Employer frowns upon this type of discourse.
So, lets take a look at this thing.
Yep, that's a pepperbox pistol all right. Pretty massive one, too. Kewl.
Here's a look at it from the side. Pretty classic pepperbox styling, but there were two things that caught my attention right away. We'll come back to those.
Let's toss the markings up here.
The two visual cues that caused my warning light to start flashing was the relative crudity of workmanship - one thing the Armourers at Enfield Lock were was meticulous, with great attention to detail and generally high-quality workmanship. The two things that attracted my attention was the lack of crispness to the lines of the barrels, and the pretty flimsy looking trigger guard. But, hey, the trigger-guard might be a replacement, and the barrels have a lot of holster wear, which tends to smooth edges. But the workmanship and tool marks on the receiver are pretty suspect, too. I've not had a chance to dig out my inspector's mark reference - but *each* of those barrels should have proofs on 'em. And as near as I can tell, they don't. One reason they wouldn't is because some of those barrels aren't bored true, they're off-center. Which means they wouldn't pass an Enfield inspection, much less proofing.
But to me it's still a collectable piece, simply because of the whole story surrounding Afghanistan.
Update: Dug out the reference, The Broad Arrow, by Ian Skennerton, and the ownership mark, the crown - is actually a Georgian crown with a Victorian cypher. There were two styles of crown, one for kings and the other for queens. The orb in the crown is what points quickly to a Georgian crown, and the number of balls on the top layer of the crown points to the George III version of the Kings Crown. The V.R. matches the date, but the crown actually pre-dates the production of percussion weapons in British service. The E-crown-1 inspection mark should actually be Crown-E-1 where the Crown E represents Enfield, and the number represents an inspector (most that I have seen are two-digit, btw, which just means... that's what I've seen). If it were a weapon built under George III, but reworked under Victoria, the markings would reflect that - I have several such weapons in the collection, that jump eras between Victoria, Edward VII, Georges IV and V and Elizabeth. Oddly enough, no William IV's!
In the pics provided, there are no proofs anywhere, and the Brits were positively tenacious about proof-marks, with lots of 'em.
All that taken together - argues for forgery. But like I said, that doesn't deter me, as long as I'm not paying "original" prices!
John,
That was a terrific read and truly fun. We looked at the pics and spotted the off center bore right away, before we read the 'rest of the story.'
Once again, a reason to read yer blog daily.
Thanks again.
by Cricket on October 7, 2007 2:21 PM
Thanks for the plug!
Readers interested in a good story on how these weapons are made should check out http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/darra.htm
and we have another section with some detailed tips for sorting originals from repros at http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/afghanold.htm BEFORE they spend their good money. These are all nice souvenirs, but not necessarily good investments.
by John S. on October 7, 2007 6:37 PM
I have a great-great-great uncle. You might have heard of him. His name was Jonathan Browning. He was a gunsmith...
by Cricket on October 8, 2007 8:37 AM
Good one, Cricket! You win the comment thread. Snork!
(JoA writes snerk, I thought up snork all by my self before I saw other people using it.)
The Italian Benaglia Rifle grenade, a rod-grenade used against the Austro-Hungarians and Germans in WWI. This example is battlefield recovered from the high alpine battlefields, which is one reason it's in such good shape.
Ya know what it really is?
An excuse.
After all, I've got an Italian rod-grenade. But no Italian rifle to display it with. Therefore, a WWI Italian rifle must be acquired, or this will simply be... lacking, bereft, incomplete.
so whatever happened to the other reference book? was the previous wrong answer indicated?
by MajMike on September 26, 2007 10:46 AM
Seems like a reasonable reason to buy a rifle to me... A couple years ago Mrs Pogue accidentally purchased 20 ga shotgun shells instead of 12 ga... The next week she picked up an 870 in 20 gauge. (Returning ammo to Walmart is just such a hassle!)
Ah, the little round button at top!
The glaive-like thing is most of the blade of an Austro-Hungarian maple-seed bomb, or aerial scythe, circa 1917. The little round button fastened the blade to the top of the bomb.
Dropped from an airplane, these little gizmos would whirl madly while descending slowly; even those that failed to explode could inflict terrible damage on anyone too slow to get out of the way.
What, you want me to document my hallucinations?
OK. There's no source for this online, but I'm hallucinating a dusty old book, with pages hand-sewn into a cardboard cover. The title is Aerial Weapons of the Great War, and the authors are Arthur Johnson and David Smythe. Copyright date is 1924. The pages are brittle with age; this wasn't the finest paper to begin with. It details many of these weapons, generally with drawings of recovered fragments, detailed drawings of the complete weapon, and rather fanciful illustrations of usage.
You won't find this at your local library, as there's only one copy, and that's inside my head. However, Halbritter's Arms Through the Ages is nearly as good a technical reference.
mullah cimoc say iran president so harm him neocon spy in whitehouse and pentagon when muslim need teaching christian to reading him bible for learn that bible forbidding him homosexual.
this the irony when usa people to wake up from stupification because one speaking by iran pres.
benjamin frankling so happy now if him ameriki to destroying israei spy net in usa media, university and government run by him master in tel aviv. this big loss for mossad.
this big victory for ameriki people and for freedom of press.
when usa people stop pay the tribute money for masters in tel aviv then israeli to be destroy.
{Whoa, Cimoc, slow down on the expresso's, baby!]
by mullah cimoc on September 25, 2007 10:04 PM
Maybe I am just getting it, but isn't "cimoc" "comic" spelled backwards?
Trias - 1. Yes. 2. It would work, but I don't recommend it while he's here. Though I do wish some students would kidnap him and hold him hostage for a year. Well, in my dream world I wish that.
A piece of junk he found in the bilges of that old destroyer, when he was down in Mexico. That is, a piece of scrap galvanized sheet steel somebody threw away.
Pin knocker, or whatever it's actually called. Some Armour prior to the 50's used a track pin without any kind of retention, ie nut. They were installed with the pinhead on the inside. They would, of course, work out over time. As the track moved, any pins that had worked themselves out too far would contact this device and get shoved back into position.
Of course I also have no idea what this is. Time to loosen up the free assocition again.
by Rod Thorsen on September 23, 2007 5:32 PM
oohhhhhh someone is in BIG trouble for breaking Excalabur. BIG trouble.
by AFSister on September 23, 2007 8:13 PM
High speed-low drag tinfoil hat?
by Old Fat Sailor on September 23, 2007 9:44 PM
I don't care what it really is, OFS wins this one!! Best thing I've heard in quite a while!
by Ninjafluff on September 24, 2007 8:58 AM
flanged boot scraper, for to get the mud off with..
I'll have to consult WereKitten regarding a snarky remark. I'll stick with a more "real" guess.
Looks like some sort of mini-rocket grenade.
by AFSister on September 13, 2007 10:12 AM
It's an early lawn dart.
by Fred on September 13, 2007 11:34 AM
An early attempt at a wire-guided missile.
There was an unfortunate tendency for the guide-wire operator to lose fingers. That and the lack of vertical control led to termination of the program. The concept was not revived until the invention of electricity.
NevadaDailySteve, in the comments to the Stokes Mortar Whatziss, gave up on the object in question, and chose to focus on the item I was using for a prop to hold the fuze level.
NevadaDailySteve, in the comments to the Stokes Mortar Whatziss, gave up on the object in question, and chose to focus on the item I was using for a prop to hold the fuze level.
Ok, it's my fault. I apologize.
A question. Is the wax paper wrapped package what enclosed the round objects in the two previous posts?
And a completely off the wall guess. A non-metallic fuse for a land mine.
so the glass roundie thing breaks, and the black metal roundie thing then does something?
by MajMike on August 30, 2007 8:59 AM
Appears to be a pulley of some sort. I see that it's got the groove for a belt, but I don't see any way to retain the unit
I can't read the stamp very well, so it could be a weight for a old measuring device like a bail weigh unit. The dust suggests it's used outside as does the paint scrapes.
Small (probably) glass disk + presumably same sized disk with a wavy surface.
Put those two together and you can get a valve. Tieing back to the ill fated CPAP masks leads one to speculate that these are components from an old gas mask, probably WWII or WWI.
by KCSteve on August 30, 2007 1:07 PM
German. 1943. I think MINE in the first answer.
by rikkochet on August 30, 2007 1:27 PM
BTW I realize you were in a hurry but where did you go that they hit you for $180 for a CPAP mask? I've replaced mine a couple of times now and the most I've been bitten was a dollar or two over the century mark.
The last time I bought one, a few months back, it was $80. Admittedly I didn't by the headband and swivelly thingie with it.
The pharmacy I bought my last mask at suggested I get a prescription from my doctor so the insurance would pay for part of it. I did. The doctor visit cost me $30. The insurance saved me nine dollars and change. You do the math.
Needless to say I'll just go buy one outright next time.
Well, about the *only* thing you got right Bill was...
5. some suitably snide remarks.
NDS - I could have gotten it cheaper, mail-order, but that would have meant waiting *another* day. That was why I had... two.
Recruit Private (bucking for Permanent) Gunner destroyed the harness, ate the seal, uncoiled the small hose, and broke the nosepiece and forehead rest.
In other words, very little was usable.
The little bugger is a WWI-era Gunner. Pulverize everything in sight.
Since the use of the CPAP is actually service-related, I can voucher the cost to the VA. I am reluctant to levy the taxpayer just because I can when it was my fargin' dog that did the damage.
Just like I haven't applied to the US Taxpayer to pay me to not grow crops I have no intention of growing, but could apply and get paid to not grow them.
I'm a conservative, not a Republican or a Democrat. I'll pick your pocket for what I earned, but as far as I can, I'll pay for my own mistakes and not ask you to pay me to not do something I wasn't doing in the first place.
I know you weren't really suggesting otherwise - I'm just being preachy because I can.
My instinct is that it's a hubcap. That's probably wrong, though, as my first guesses here usually are. So second (also usually wrong) is that it's a plug for a 40 mm barrel, to keep weather out.
This year's Gun Blogger Rendezvous will be donating all money raised to
Project Valour-IT. Major Chuck Ziegenfuss of TC Override will be our Guest of Honor.
Any publicity you can get out that would encourage Gun and/or Milbloggers or readers/commenters to attend would be greatly appreciated.
It is a small and informal event that allows everyone to get to know everyone else, so you get to put a face to the bloggers you've been reading! It's a great lot of fun hanging out with an amazing bunch of folks!
SWWBO and I went last year, and intend to go this year - though the job situation (mine, not hers) may get in the way, with a TDY complicating things.
Ah - what you missed, Bill, is that the Adj has been suffering from digital stuttering all week. She just usually catches it and uses her global access to do a digital handwave "There's nothing to see here, move along..."
Recruit Private Gunner ate both my CPAP masks yesterday. That meant, essentially, that I've been up all night, because I really can't sleep without the damned thing.
Then, finding that CPAP masks are not conducive to good intestinal health, he had diarrhea all over one of my favorite shirts. Teach me to leave it on the floor.
So, since you have nothing to do with my problems today, I'm going be progressive and make you pay for it.
Whatzis?
No, you can't just say, "countertop" and expect credit. What's on top of the countertop?
Clear plate, two holes and a tail. Guessing sizing from the countertop those holes look to be around finger size. They're probably for bolts to hold it in place so I'd say they're not small bolts. Can't tell if those are 'little finger sized' or 'big hairy finger sized' holes but I'd guess they're at least 5/16".
There's a faint hint of a bevel to the edge so this might be a lens of some sort - slight magnifier.
Ah, but wait!
Moving the image over to a viewing program and turning up the brightness you can clearly see that the edge of the plate crosses one of the 'holes' - and there's no tail.
So let's reset: It's a clear glass plate laying on a countertop that has two circular plugs in it and what looks like a small crack on the left.
Still seems to be a slight bevel to the edges.
Could be a dinnerware, could be a magnifier.
by KCSteve on August 29, 2007 1:19 PM
...the edge of the plate crosses one of the 'holes' - and there's no tail.
So, it's not just a Whatziss, it's a Whatziss sandwich.
I'm betting that thing is smaller than it appears. John is sneaky and if he has lost some sleep I'm sure he's even more ornery than usual. I think it's probably no larger than a half-dollar so I'll go with the front lens on a WWII era sniper scope.
I get at least one email a week along these lines - last week it was about our Carl Gustav from a guy who is making a replica for Airsoft combat games.
I’m a collector of ww2 British militaria, and have run into the “too late to find cheap militaria” wall. I collect ww2 Commonwealth/British military items, and was quite happy to find your website with the abundance of photos of weapons and vehicles. I found a couple of shots of a British 2” mortar that I’m using as a general reference for building a replica for a ww2 British Para display. Do you have any additional close up photos and dimensions for the mortar? I would be greatly appreciated.
Also. I am under the impression that you are based out of Leavenworth , KS . Is this true? I work for defense contracting firm in [deleted for OPSEC], so I’m in town daily. I’d be interested in establishing a militaria based relationship with your and your buddies if possible.
Regards,
{Someone in my Office}
Leavenworth, KS
I responded:
Snerk. Yer gonna be surprised.
John of Argghhh!
He responded thusly:
About what?
Why would he be surprised? Simple. All he had to do when he was writing that email was stand up, step out of his office, turn left, walk ten feet down the hall to the central corridor, turn left, walk 30 feet down to the next corridor, turn right, walk down that hall to the 5th office, and say, "Hey, can I look at your 2" mortar?"
He figured it out pretty quickly (we don't hire no dummies where I work - heck, Dusty used to work for us before he decided flying delivery trucks was more fun than flying a desk - and neither of us knew that until after I'd invited him to post here - different office in a different city -but same firm.)
OH, THAT John Donovan! Now you know I’m a closet militarian.
Amazing what you don't know about the people you work with.
Since I was at home letting the Exterior Guard do their thing in the back yard when I got his first email, I sent him this when I got back to the office:
I've got the mortar in my truck. See me when you get back from wherever it is I saw you headed when I drove in.
John of Argghhh!
Now, If I'd decided to dig out the transit box for the mortar, I would have just carried it in and stuck it on his chair. But since I didn't do that, he stopped by my office and we went out and transferred the mortar out in the parking lot.
Oh, and for Those Who Care About Stuff Like This - it's deactivated, so it's not a weapon, so no rules, corporate or otherwise, were broken in the genesis of this post.
Simply identify all the items in this picture. Sorry to block the pretties with that hogleg on top, Neffi...
This one will be easy for the geeks, challenging but doable for naifs.
This is another pic of what's available in the markets of Afstan. Stateside, my budget and the availability of that type of pistol haven't matched yet. Over there, it probably costs what a Happy Meal does... Just another reason I can't go to Afstan!
For people like Wolfwalker, who *like* the big-sized pics - click here.
Ha - I am in the US (Detroit) so I am on your timezone. The big pic is big enough to read the frame stamps, and it says it is a Webley Royal Irish Constabulary model, so it should be in .442 Webley. Of course, it may just be a copy and it should be RUC! And why are there so many P14/M1917 bayonets there? Lebel spikes with hooked quillions that make them pretty old too! Be fun to visit, but I don't think they would ever let me back into OZ with what I would like to buy.
Well, it might be a Webley, but I suspect it and it's cousin up above are pot metal, or whatever the slag du jour happened to be the day they were made.
These look very much like the Afghan/Pakistan/India fake guns you see as wall hangers and sold through ebay and the tourist bazaars. Cheap wood grips stained with a mix of alcohol and shoe polish, etc. Rub a little wax on the surface, ryn a wash of thin black oil paint over the metal and wipe down, and voila! Le Antique Instante!
Might they be real? Yeah, they might be. But my money, or donuts, is on them being fakes.
Bayonets are prolly the real deal, though.
And watch the h@ll out for those P-53 Enfield rifle-muskets. I've handled a couple brought back that folks tried to pass off as "Confederate" civil war arms. They are almost all 4th model that never made it to the states, and many have substandard parts made locally to fill in for corroded or missing pieces. You fire these at your own risk.
Respects,
by AW1 Tim on August 24, 2007 1:12 PM
Well, since they're in Afghanistan, I'm thinking we're mostly safe, Tim.
You don't have to. If you tell the gunsmith (they have these marts on the Pak side of the border, too) you want it for real, live use, he'll load it, walk out on the street and shoot at passing airliners until you're convinced of the quality of his work.
Satisfaction guaranteed -- because the unwritten warranty allows the dissatisfied customer (or his heirs) to return and use the merchandise as a bludgeon to crush the manufacturer's fingers.
Yes, I'm well aware of that...I just didn't notice any hooked quillons in that photo that belonged to any Enfield Bayonets. Besides, I had missed that point made by Geoff.
Interesting method of fuzing, eh? Right before you hang and drop the round, you pulled the ring, inserted the round, and let it go - the lever flipped free as it cleared the tube, and off it went.
The Stokes mortar is essentially the first modern mortar. I could write a learned treatise here, but heck, real weapons geek Bruce Canfield has already done so - if you'd like to know more about the Stokes - simply click here.
Uh..yeah, I'm aware. I was pointing out that I was going to say a different time period, not a different use.
But, since Oldloader mentioned the crimean war, maybe it is the trigger for a fumigation device used by Florence Nightingale to bring "hygiene" to field army hospitals.
At least, the device would have cleared a room. ;)
Ok, looks like it's a trigger mechanism. Pull the pin, squeeze the handle and something gets fired off.
Guessing from the proportions that it's firing off something about 12-gauge shotgun shell sized so it's probably one of those things that uses a 12-ga 'blank' as the primer for something more interesting.
Trying to think of things where you'd want to set off something serious enough to need this much kick but infrequently enough to use a gadget like this...
Perhaps some sort of early ejection seat? That's the sort of thing you only set off once but when you do you really want to make sure it goes.
by KCSteve on August 13, 2007 1:52 PM
All right, lets state the obvious, it's a striker assy for an old grenade, probably post ww1, but pre ww2 i would think.
Heath
by heath on August 13, 2007 3:57 PM
Heath - if that's the case, some googling should pull it up...
It looks FN-49ish... or that Colombian carbine thingie...
by Neffi on August 12, 2007 11:22 AM
OK...visible features:
1-front sight protected by ears, vice a hood. This eliminates members of the AK family, to include the Galil (although I'm not sure about the South African version)
2-flash suppressor/muzzle brake with round holes. Could be an IMBEL FAL version or maybe an FNC.
3-sling loop underneath the barrel. Again, this supports the IMBEL FAL or FNC.
4-grips look like they're made of wood. Again, this could be a version of the FAL. I'm not aware of any version of the FNC that used wood grips, but it's possible.
5-I can' see a gas regulator, which would eliminate any version of the FAL
I'm going to guess a version of the FNC with wood or wood-colored plastic foregrips
Hmmm... I was first struck with the impression it's a FN, but some niggling memory came up out of the fog and it was this weird lookin' Egyptian battle rifle (well, that's what some called 'em in the 60's & 70's), though I can't remember it's name or official designation. It had a funny-lookin' triangular bolt, I do recall.
Probbly wrong, but it popped to mind and I figure it can't hurt to go with the hunch. Won't blow up in my face, anyway.
OT, but I just acquired a couple of rounds that you might like to add to the dungeon collection. Someone kindly marked the case ".5 in. Vickers". The base of the case is marked B.P.D. 52. The case is a little shorter then the .50BMG case and the projectile appears to have a primer recessed in the tip. Anyhow if you will send me an address I will send one (in a very well padded envelope) to you for your perusal.
"bgy57" and Heath got it correct - though Heath hedged his bets by choosing both options for base-boosted artillery rounds. BGY's only hedge was scale-related.
It is indeed the rocket motor for an artillery Rocket Assisted Projectile (RAP) - in this instance, 155mm. Here's a pic of a sectioned Brit version (generally the same as the US except for nomenclature, I believe).
And here's a closeup of that round, focused on the motor.
RAP rounds where developed to give artillery greater range. You fired them with max charge, the motor lit off, and the round went further than a standard round would with the same amount of powder and elevation. The trade-off was increased cost, reduced payload (amount of explosive) and accuracy. The rockets just didn't burn as predictably as you'd like. But you got some more range. Oh, and there was the sort of thing that annoyed people like Heartless Libertarian and CAPT H - if the rocket motor *failed* - whether by not igniting at all, or an incomplete/intermittent burn - it's impact point became pretty much random along the line of fire. Of course CAPT H and Murray are always asserting that artillery impacts are *always* random, but that's just the envy-fueled lunatic ravings of soldiers jealous that they have to actually *see* their targets to hit them, so we pretty much ignore that. Which is another gripe they have.
RAP didn't last that long in the inventory, as we discovered that "base-bleed" projectiles, which have a little pyrotechnic package in the base, gave us almost the same effect without the cost, complexity, accuracy issues and payload reduction associated with RAP. Rather than boost the shell, base-bleed reduces drag caused by the partial vacuum that exists right behind the base of the projectile - the pyro packet burns, producing combustion gases that fill the partial vacuum, thus reducing drag and gaining you an increase in range.
Base-bleed projectiles, eh? Fascinating. Makes me wonder who first discovered that effect ... and how they convinced their superiors it would work. :-)
by wolfwalker on August 5, 2007 8:27 AM
I don't know who came up with the idea, but it appears NASA was conducting teasts on the Base Bleed concept during the early '50's. Application of the concept is generally credited to Dr Gerry Bull in the early '70's, as an improvement to his Extended Range Full Bore artillery projectile. The ERFB-BB was first tested in the spring of 1978.
Cheers
by J.M. Heinrichs on August 5, 2007 12:27 PM
...the pyro packet burns, producing combustion gases that fill the partial vacuum, thus reducing drag and gaining you an increase in range.
The base bleed concept is interesting. I have always thought that some sort of rocket assist would increase the effectiveness of bunker busters (GBU 28 or the BLU-113 ). I wonder if the base bleed concept would also work for said bunker busters.
Looks to me like it's a keg modified for long range ballistic delivery.
by Yu-ain Gonnano on August 3, 2007 11:42 AM
Short muzzle loading barrel with early straight rifling and multiple touch-holes.
by rikkochet on August 3, 2007 11:59 AM
Hmmm...well, I don't think fuze, because those normally screw into arty rounds...and I doubt guidance, since I don't see a provision for any leads back to the tail...
I notice we aren't allowed to see into what looks like a hollow front end cap. And it looks like it's meant to be secured by securing screws in addition to spines...
I'm wondering about either:
A. One part of a binary chemical artillery delivery system, or...
B. Part of an artillery/launch system for high trajectory something-or-other where something comes out of that front end that we're not being allowed to see at the top of it's travel. No idea what, though.
by DougK on August 3, 2007 12:02 PM
You'll have to get screwed somewhere else.
I'm sure you mean somewhere like work, John.. because we all know you'd NEVER make any references to getting screwed somewhere else. Nor would you EVER post pictures of things that look more like @n@l beads and dildo's for whazzis posts.
Nope. Never. not you.
And no, I've never touched a man's zipper before either.
heh.
by AFSister on August 3, 2007 12:29 PM
its an Olive Drab canvas shelter half, circa 1982, with a hunk of metal on it.
by MajMike on August 3, 2007 12:35 PM
Ah, MajMike takes the road less traveled... [Armorer scribbles note to self for some fun in the future]
Casey and OFS get constructive credit on the main item, though they were only *close* not quite correct - in that their answer was correct, if essentially incomplete.
The items in the second picture of the Whatziss post are the *waterproof liner* and gasket for a mine horn. And yes, Casey, essentially they are little batteries-in-waiting, which, when crushed by contact with a ship, the chemicals mix to make a battery, setting off the mine. More specifically, this ship crushes the lead horn, which cracks the vial of sulfuric acid inside it, the acid then running down a tube and into a lead-acid battery which until that point contains no electrolyte. That fires up the battery, which detonates the explosive.
Earlier forms of this type of detonator had horns filled with sulfuric acid, surrounded by the mixture of potassium perchlorate and sugar. When the horn was crushed, the acid mixed with an ignited the perchlorate-sugar mix, and the flame exploded the charge. Here's the complete picture, minus the part (the actual horn) that I've used as a "Whatziss" in the past:
In complete context, so to speak (well, absent the whole lying on the sea-floor waiting for a ship to brush it thing) is a typical german naval mine - drop the thing from the minelayer, it drops to the sea-floor, and then releases the mine on a tether to float below the surface, waiting for that unsuspecting victim.
Now, the first item in the whatziss, that was just there to be there and not really intended as a challenge - it was similar to posting a valve spring from an engine all by itself and asking you to identify it. I'm not *quite* that mean... Bar shot? That didn't occur to me - not just because I knew what it was, but I've never seen bar shot with a valve on it before. MunDane, who made the only semi-serious attempt, offered up a condenser, possibly from a small steam engine.
It's a component (about 17 inches in length) of the pneumatic guidance system for a V1 "Buzz Bomb," that fell in the Kentish countryside in 1944.
No, I didn't expect anyone to get that. I looked hard, but there's nothing on the 'net that showed it - though I did find it in an exploded drawing I have in a book - well, that's not on the 'net, eh? That was just there because I thought it would be fun to put it up there and see how creative you guys go.
The *most* creative (yet predictable) answers were thankfully emailed me.
And I still maintain that I have never touched a man's zipper.
hehehehehehehhe
by WereKitten on August 1, 2007 9:38 PM
I knew something was bugging me about that bland, biege little bugger! It was just the liner. :)
It's a good thing you didn't go second stage, and ask about which mine, 'cuz I would have said a Russian mine from the Russo-Japanese war back in 1904. I seem to recall reading that our naval forces actually encountered recycled mines from "back then" in the Persian Gulf during the late 1980s.
As for W-K, I've heard of "explosive" sensations; but still...
No, rather than that one, we'll go with this one - with which I have high expectations for some *very* low comedy. Remember the Rulez, plz. And this *is* a legitimate whatzis fully in keeping with Arsenal holdings...
Ok, I'll jump in on this one. It looks like the detonator trigger from a turn-of-the-century mine. If memory serves, the tube was full of fulminate of mercury (or something similar), and a ship grazing the crushable tube would set off the fulminate, which set off the mine.
rooster ring and one of a pair of crossed retort like devices....
gotta be something from the Chemical School.
by MajMike on July 31, 2007 5:42 PM
#1 Barshot for demasting the other guys frigate
#2 Mine horn, holds the glass vial of electrolytic or acid for the initiator,
by Old Fat Sailor on July 31, 2007 8:25 PM
The top picture is a condenser of some kind, maybe from a small steam engine.
I think the bottom one is a fuse to a some sectional artillery piece.
by MunDane on July 31, 2007 9:15 PM
John... you TORTURE ME with these things. Especially the really fun looking ones...
by WereKitten on July 31, 2007 9:22 PM
Oh, and John... usually when the "next piece goes in".... things don't *get* hard for me; they're ALREADY hard for me.
just sayin', sweetheart....
by WereKitten on July 31, 2007 9:25 PM
Well, in the first pic, I can say that I see three cast-iron half-balls, whatever that may mean.
Now, the second pic, there, um, I dunno, y'all ain't been loggin my keystrokes, over at asstr.org, have ya? Of course I have no idea what those objects are in the second pic, what do y'all take me for and I'm a Sunday School boy and my Mom would blush to read that and y'all should be ashamed of yerselves and are there any mor
I'm in a rush - I've got to get to the farm, collect S'mudge and take her to the vet, get her back out there and then myself off to work.
But I will answer the Whatziss that has vexed you all for the last week.
Part one. Calling it a manifold was remarkably close, in a sense. The center of that star contained... explosives, and the arms were...
...as we saw in the second picture - fuze holders, all of which were wrapped in...
...the item from the third picture, which was the shell of the...
WWI German discus grenade, which was thrown like a discus, and had all those fuzes on it to increase the likelihood of a successful detonation.
But in reality it's a pretty small, ineffective grenade that is typical of the inventiveness displayed as people were struggling with ways to get more and better ways to kill people in soldier's hands during the war.
I used to throw the discuss and I can not imagine a more akward and inaccurate throwing method and also one with more potential for an object to slip out and end up at your feet. Also to twist your torso properly you really need to stand up which I dobt would have been a great idea in WWI trench war fare or any other type. I wonder if the inventor of this was ever in combat OR ever threw a discuss!!! If we are going to do sports bombs why not bowling balls? Javelins? Shot put? A soccer kick-ball bomb?
But didn't Army look into Frisbee bombs in the 60's? That didn't "fly" either.
by LarryK on July 30, 2007 10:34 AM
Well, I'm pushin' for partial credit on the grounds of using the "manifold" word and suggesting we "go to the air" in a subsequent post. I mean, throw me a frickin' bone here! :-)
(Though discus thingy's definitely never crossed my mind. I did start to wonder how this might work in an artillery or mortar round, but couldn't quite see an application).
by DougK on July 30, 2007 10:58 AM
Gee, a grenade where, if your hand slips or you just grip it wrong to begin with, it goes off in your hand?
And it didn't catch on?
Color me surprised!
by KCSteve on July 30, 2007 12:10 PM
Larry -- There was a trial run of discus-shaped flares in RVN -- we inherited a few to play with when we went NightHawking.
Launch procedure was -- fly towards the target at 2,000 feet, 90 knots, set the fuze for 1500 feet, arm them by yanking the lanyard and have the crewchief stick them out into the slipstream and give them a backhanded fling in the direction of flight *immediately* after you initiated a climbing left turn so they didn't wind up in the rotor system or the cockpit.
They'd usually fly as advertised (from what we could see -- usually just a glimpse in the dark) but they had a horrendous dud rate; the ones that *did* pop didn't throw out enough illum to make the flight gyrations worthwhile.
We called them Frisbees and that's exactly how effective the things were...
Obviously, it's a Schildkröte -- part of a pressure-sensing initiation system. The "legs" are pressure inputs from sensors; up to four could be connected. The "tail" is for the det-cord output. The "head" is an optional feedthrough.
These were used for rigging complex booby-traps ahead of the Allied advance. Finding one pressure-sensitive gimmick wasn't enough; there could be several sensors, any one of which could set off the bomb (and rigging each bomb to cause debris to fall on one of another bomb's pressure sensors was a favorite trick).
I'm sorely tempted to float suggestions like a central set of jets for a five bbl. carburetor or multi-headed hash pipe, but I guess it's supposed to relate in some way to ordnance, yah?
You can almost smell the desperation setting in....
by DougK on July 27, 2007 9:16 AM
I dunno is it a sizing tool? Doesn't look strong enough to be used for leverage and the spacing is atrocious.
well, whatever it WAS, it sure looks exploded now.
by MajMike on July 27, 2007 10:21 AM
I'm gonna' guess a sort of manifolded blasting cap device or initiator. What do I mean by that?...I'm not sure myself, but it looks like it's meant to set off something in at least four different directions. Mine, maybe?
by DougK on July 27, 2007 10:54 AM
Doug - you're skating close as to purpose... but are 3200 out.
Well, let's go up then. Bomb initiator/fuse. One is the main, and maybe one lead in is from something barometric or sumsuch. "This is not a guess...really."
by DougK on July 27, 2007 11:40 AM
Hmm...
A 'splitter' for detcord perhaps? As in, a way to turn one 'fuse' into four. Detcord being in essence a really fast fuse it seems reasonable that you'd need something like this to reliably join multiple strands together.
by KCSteve on July 27, 2007 12:06 PM
by Jove, i think he's got it!
..and if that ain't what it is, that's what it SHOULD be.
The farm has been making me a slug on my signature topic...
...so let's do a double-whatzis today.
An easy one, and a tougher one.
First up, submitted by AFSis, is the one I suspect will be easier for the grognards among us - I got it right out, though AFSis wouldn't give me credit until I got a specific detail correct. For this one, if you get the specific detail, that will be extra credit.
The second is an item in the Holdings of the Armory of Argghhh! Go for it - though there are some among us who may actually get it pretty quick.
The answers are out there, on the web.
And if this proves too easy - I have an impossible one in reserve...
First one looks to be a combination bullet mold and reloading tool. With no way to scale, don't make us guess the caliber! I'd put it as something in use between 1890 and 1940 (that is to say, a caliber introduced in that period...something in the .32-.44 or so, with a short case).
by DougK on July 25, 2007 8:21 AM
I agree with DougK. The second looks like an early multiple socket set.
by JimC on July 25, 2007 8:56 AM
If AFSis gets fussy, the function of reloading I have in mind is bullet seating, specifically (though I do with a somewhat more modern press, mahself). :-)
by DougK on July 25, 2007 9:08 AM
AFSis will indeed be more fussy.
This is a particular type of tool.
More specifics, please, else AFSis go all Werekitty on ya!
Well, since you put it that way, I'd have to say it appears to able to "crimp" a case while seating the bullet...and mebbe also used to seat a primer in an earlier stem from that roundy shoulder thingy. It looks like there there may be a hole in the bullet end of the seating part...which might be used to help eject the completed round..or might somehow be used as part of a power insertion system, but that seems unduly complicated and unlikely.
Whut the heck else is there? I dunno'.
Oh, might the second item be a primer seating tool for various size primers or percussion cap thingys?
by DougK on July 25, 2007 9:24 AM
Well, "stem" was supposed to be "step" and "power" was supposed to be "powder". I kant spel gud tuday.
by DougK on July 25, 2007 9:27 AM
Swiss Army Manicure Tool.
Unleash WereKitty as soon as I finish chugging another 1.5 liter bottle of water...
Caliber is pretty tough, no scale, and outside mold is crude, no definition, but I'd say sumpin' in the .38 S&W fambly?
I already hazarded a WAG on the other item in an earlier post...a primer die/placing tool, multi-fit, 1 ea.
by DougK on July 25, 2007 1:23 PM
DougK's comment made me drag out the 1953 Lyman Ideal Handbook... flip to the back section, the classic Ideal Hand Book... that looks like an Ideal No. 4 (not the No. 1 nor No. 6). 'Twas offered in a variety of calibers, from .25-20 to .45 S&W. No idea how to identify the caliber from the side shown.
My first though on seeing the second thingamajig is "nipple wrench."
well, i WAS going to say "nipple wrench", but i didn't dare google that up to verify.
by MajMike on July 25, 2007 1:51 PM
Somehow, I don't think we're going to have go to the "impossible reserve fallback item" on this Whatiz thingy...
So, John, check yer email lately? There's sum offerin's there for ya'. If they're too pedestrian, I can go more strange. (Also, I'm not sure that's the current email...I dug it up out of the archives)
by DougK on July 25, 2007 2:04 PM
Doug, I have been drooling over my email, which of course caused by keyboard to fail, which is why you've heard nothing.
Keep sending. I've got *lots* of storage, and can I use these pics, or are they just for viewing behind closed doors...
John,
You can use whatever I send you unless otherwise specifically noted (and I'd think long and hard about sending anything like that anyway...not state security stuff, just personal source confidence issues, in case it's identifiable). Doug doesn't violate OPSEC, ever.
If you see your way fit to credit the source on the other stuff, it's appreciated, but not a big deal. Much of it I post elsewhere in one form or another on our little piece of heaven, the AFV DG, but sometimes not the artillery, because it's not our "main thing". I'll see you get the examples of those that I think you'll appreciate. I hit up some pretty unusual places in my work.
by DougK on July 25, 2007 2:23 PM
ahhhhhhh.. life is indeed GOOD, isn't it? Sorry I haven't been around yet today but it's been rather busy here are the pole factory. Lots of new models to stress test.
here's the thing.
It's obviously a bullet mold (although "nipple wrench" sounds pretty good too, even though that's for the 2nd item).
It's not an Ideal, although John and I had a "discussion" as to whether or not Ideal stole the idea from this manufacturer, or visa versa.
And Doug's worked so hard at this, I may just give it to him even though he's got the year wrong.
Yeah. I'm TOUGH. but you know what? YOU GUYS CAN TAKE IT!
by WereKitten on July 25, 2007 2:31 PM
Not without coffee, I can't. Everybody over here drinks *tea*. Even tried using five bags per cup and the fork *still* won't stand up in it.
Tea, schmee. I found a place that serves coffee strong enough to eat the bottom out of the porcelain cup if you don't drink it fast enough. And the water's definitely been boiled.
*sigh*
When the present occupant of "my" room finally decides to resume his travels (hopefully by the time I get back from the airfield tonight), I'll be a semi-happy camper...
I found a place that serves coffee strong enough to eat the bottom out of the porcelain cup if you don't drink it fast enough. And the water's definitely been boiled.
So what's the final verdict on this thingy? And whut's the second item? And are we talkin' big cash prize here or whut? If somebody knows the real answers, pipe up, I dyin' to know whut that dang thing is here! (Still bettin' primer seating die, a wrench should have the arms evenly spaced, I would think.)
by DougK on July 26, 2007 8:37 AM
The "easy item" is an Ideal Loading Tool, though this particular one was made by Winchester. Examples can be seen here. (scroll down a ways)
As for item number two... I'll provide a new hint tomorrow, and string you guys along for a while.
I will say this, however. The two items aren't necessarily related...
I mentioned to Bill in the comments on another post that I would be taking my M2 Aiming Circle and trotting it and some aiming posts out to do an unofficial survey of the demesne. One reason to do that is I believe that the fence lines on the east side have been adjusted to the advantage of my neighbor to the east (by mutual agreement with the previous owner) - and I think I know why, having to do with the movement of his cattle herd to water. I have no problem with it - but I want to establish the property line to see if I need to get an actual survey in - as I don't believe that land will be running cattle for that much longer, the owner having moved into a nursing home two weeks ago, and the family member taking over wants to subdivide and sell for housing, I'm suspecting. Good luck getting water meters...
Anyway, Bill said to give Neffi an Instamatic and have him do an aerial survey. So I did.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the Castle Argghhh! Range Complex*. Heh.
I submit an application on behalf of Ry and myself for a lab. The lab shall be modest but the blast zone er i mean the buffer zone should be quite large.
Tell the coyotes not to drink from Ry's vials.
by Trias on June 27, 2007 8:43 AM
Wow, John! The complex is so large, you probably qualify for your own ZIP code! LOL
Congrats again on the acquisition!
by fdcol63 on June 27, 2007 8:56 AM
Tank Table VIII should work for 20mm aerial gunnery (hover fire only), but the Range Fan for rockets needs to extend out another mile.
Ummmm, for diving fire only. Indirect fire's probably gonna require a variance from the Zoning Board for downtown land use...
You're gonna need a scad of range flags and a medevac pad.
The flagpole for Table VIII / Arty Direct fire should also be lighted (blue-green) for Neffi's NVG training flights and you'll need WK's input for the decor of the Nurses' Quarters immediately adjacent to the medevac pad...
We will need a new Ronco Rita-Matic, one that will match the size and attributes of said demesne. That will require some extra power. Are we on our own power grid and what are the state regulations that may impact our ability to improve the electrical input to our newly minted subnation?
NP, Kat- I delivered the Ronco 2000 Rita-Matic to the castle several years ago, I have links to the new, improved model (Not Available In Any Store!!! As Seen On TV!!!) which somewhat resembles a Harley V-twin coupled to a hot tub... stand by.
by Neffi on June 27, 2007 7:49 PM
I'm sure I put in a request for the Castle Reactor. I'll need it for the multidimensional experiments and Scruple grooming parlor and so on. There should be plenty of extra juice for a proper RitaMatic
Go'na be a short course road for the TTVIII, where is the long range mover track?
by eric on June 28, 2007 6:43 AM
eric, do you not see the entrance road coming in from the north?
by MajMike on June 28, 2007 8:13 AM
Oh great, and of course the shack you're going to lock me up in as at the business end of one of the ranges. Greaaaat. Good thing I own a spade and a shovel.
by ry on June 28, 2007 9:08 AM
Actually Ry, that's not your shack. Yours is in the trees of the KD Range...
A ferrule and bedknob for a Victorian 4-poster bed. The holes in the ferrule are for attaching, well, whatever restraint devices the mind of a twisted Victorian could come up with.
Well according to Google, that piece was owned by the Grand Poobah of a jungle country who's pride and joy was a large male elephant.
The elephant was the Poobah's pride and joy and he loved to ride on it.
However late in life the elephant was plagued with constipation... which distressed both the elephant and the Poobah greatly. So the Poobah had his finest craftsmen turn to on a project to make a royal enema devise. That device in the photo is the tip of the elephant enema thingie.
A firehose like device attached to the non brass end of it and it was .... oh how should I say it .... introduced into the elephant by the Poobah's Royal Fire Department ... who then proceeded to give the pachyderm a royal hosing.
The elephant died. It took the Royal Embalmers 2 weeks to get the smile off his face.
You did wash your hands after handling that thing didn't you John? ... John?
Awright, to get serious, (you people not understanding the importance of being earnest) the cylindrical part is I betcha made of steel, the ogive-shaped-exactly-like-the-front-end-of-a-projectile part is obviously brass and polished to a fare-thee-well by SWWBO.
Which latter makes it harder to get a perfect idea of its shape.
Now I guess that it's a chamber-throat shape gauge for some piece.
Ummm, Victorian suppository? Still had a lot to work on I suppose.
by Rod Thorsen on June 14, 2007 11:09 PM
Now hang on Jus,
I know I'm want to go off the reservation most times due to my lack of depth in arty artifacation, still, some pitting on the steel shaft (salt water?), holes that could accom. 4 prop blades with the smaller holes for a-fixin the cable, and if that would be a zinc ring between the steel and brass sections, well then, a proper ship's log which on tall ships, was towed behind the vessel, the props turning a cable which turned some gears in a box on board which gave a measure of the ship's speed and distance traveled.
I stand to my guess
by Richard on June 14, 2007 11:12 PM
Well...........I'll just sit down...."Oh, over here?" yes........thank-you.
A device used to hand turn shell casings in the field(PPPllleasse John don't ask me the mm!!)
by Richard on June 14, 2007 11:35 PM
Obscure shiney brass thingie for seamen recruits to polish while being told the same sea story ("This is no shi...)again and again by the Deck Force leading seaman.
The funny part is, AW1 Tim actually got it first, but then essentially reneged.
CAPT H got it fully correct. It's an AT-3 Sagger missile. More accurately, it's an armorer's training cut-away of one, this particular one out of East Germany after the wall tumbled.
If you're interested in the flow of this Whatziss, click here and follow the links around.
Dang, Sir! This one was like a good honest mystery novel, in which all of the necessary clues were present, but the misdirection threw one off the scent.
I mean, I shoulda noticed the obvious propellant connected to the obvious rocket nozzles on that annular pipe.
Yer right up there with Dorothy Leigh Sayers in my estimation!
CAPT H has scored the first correct answer - but he thoughtfully did it in email so you can keep playing.
We wouldn't suggest he did it so that there wouldn't be evidence of a wrong answer, no, we would *never* be so uncharitable as that... that would be rude to our guests.
And if the answer had been wrong, the Gunner would never ever think of letting the slightest hint of such be inadvertantly hinted in subsequent discussions.
Cheers
by J.M. Heinrichs on May 27, 2007 12:03 PM
Oh wow! That picture helps so much. Thanks!
Um, not really. Darnit. This is too much for my poor little brain to handle this early in the morning. I'm going back to bed to try to sleep off this hangover. Ouch.
Just as the most accurate 1,000 yard rifle competitors used to shoot from the seats of their pants (Creedmore position), I'm sure that getting the map onto the ground, and oriented correctly, and using a locked body position while seated to cradle and steady that oversize lensatic compass (I'm showing my age now) so as to read off the exact mils
to the direct-fire target WOULD be the best way to direct the fire of a 105 battery, 45 years ago when I was taught how to do it in ROTC at Mizzou.
So, R-dawg, if you were to assume the cross-legged Creedmore position, and shoot a good score, would you have to be helped up off of the ground and assisted into the ambulance?
A person of enquiring mind who is really not that far behind you, when it comes to old age and decrepitude, would like to know.
Well, this has been fun, if perhaps a bit more erotic than I anticipated. Confused by that? Ah, well, you'd best check out the comments in *this* post then.
Okay, in this pic, there is a clear clue. Well, it would be clear to me, anyway.
Remember - these are all views of the same military artifact.
HFS - That was not nice, throwing Tim under the bus like that!
Tim - Let me help you up and get you a drink. Well, dust you off, you'll be as good as new.
Richard - In the last thread, it appears you are offering me a ride in a helicopter, a Bell-47 I believe. The fact that there is no bartender aboard is no problem as long as you are prepared to entertain me in other ways. Just forward a signed DD-214 as part of your application to the Rotation (men who vie for my attention with varying degrees of success). I'll review it and get back to you.
I look at that last image and see a blow-out plate on the left. It looks like the spheroid container holds a gas charge of some sort to blow the device clear of it's launch tube before the main motor ignites.
Hmmm.... I'll probably have a better answer after a few drinks.
Respects,
by AW1 Tim on May 26, 2007 2:37 PM
Hmmm.... I'll probably have a better answer after a few drinks
Hmmm.... I'll probably have a better answer after a few drinks.
Don't we all, baby!
Maggie ~ yes we do. Well, most of us.
Tim ~ I really wasn't trying to throw you under the bus, I promise! I'll buy you a drink to make it up to you. Especially if your answers get better as you drink ;)
To get caught up, go here. Mind you, you should follow that link for Rivrdog's comment alone!
Okay, this Whatziss is like the Indian legend about the six blind men and the elephant, except in this case, you *all* get to see the clues out of context together and compare notes as you are going along, vice each getting a unique piece. I haven't figured out how to torture you that way...
This will actually be a great example of a "forest for the trees" kind of thing - once we get far enough away from the object - it will become perfectly clear for most of you.
Yesterday's shot *was* of a component of a guidance/aiming system, albeit *not* a gyro as posited.
'rrRRp! Oops. Excuse me. (If that doesn't make sense, then you didn't pay attention to the second sentence of this post... so it's your fault you're confused.)
Heh. That's a fair bit 'o bakelite for a TSFO (Training Set, Fire Observation for the, um, er, *average citizens* in the crowd) or a Bushmaster.
Nope, and nope.
MajMike - I thought you might be angling for this... but since it could have been other items as well, I gave you the "mebbe".
This is an artifact *in* the posession of the Armorer and Arsenal. As yet (note, I said, "yet") we've not scored a TSFO or UCOFT, for that matter. Though wouldn't a functional UCOFT be fun (Unit Conduct Of Fire Trainer)?
my initial thoughts were along the lines of some kind of rate sensor for a traversing gear box, but then you kinda gave a nod towards "component of a training aid", so between that and "not TSFO or UCOFT", i am reduced to flailing away at SIMNET, (for which we didn't particularly replicate turret motion of much else), so now i'm right back to being completely confused (having traversed the Great Circle route to get there).
by MajMike on May 25, 2007 3:44 PM
And yer gonna be grumpy with me when you realize how disingenous I was being.
Yes, a version/simulacrum of this could have been involved in sim training you have conducted, whether live, virtual, or constructive.
The object in question is used to train the users of the object.
HFS - yes, I take your point. MacGyver, like you, does have more than an academic interest in rotorheads, too.
Though his manipulation of the cyclic is different (one hopes rather strenuously so) from yours, though the net achievement is the same - achieving great heights with safe landings.
HFS - That's one of the reasons you are always welcome to the barstool next to mine! I don't share well.
Guys, you lucked out that she asked for a whiskey old-fashioned. Heaven's forfend she ask for one of those foolish Mojito things. You need to go out to the Castle Garden near the moat and get mint. Then you need a mortar and pestle. I don't know if she needs a bartender or an alchemist!
John ~ great heights are good. Safe landings are better. I'm sure there are others here who can attest to that as well. The acrobatics can be fun as well *wink* And yes, I'm much more gentle with the cyclic than he is.
Maggie ~ I don't share well either, having been raised an only child. And this week has not been one for mojitos. It was almost a week for shots of whiskey and nothing more.
Umm, even I know, and thought everybody knew, that the minumum necessary gentlest touch on the stick is always best for the smooth maneuvers and a long-lasting good time.
I mean, one can yank it about violently, but surely that's only necessarily if one doesn't understand his machine and is operating by rote and mindless drill.
I wonder what goes in that hole, right in the middle of that picture.
I don't know but it appears to have a guide of some sort leading TO the hole so even the most inexperienced of us all can get it right. Or so I would hope.
This is the famous Grafenwoehr "Grid Light Generator" It sits behind Range Control at GTA and is only activated when 2LTs call Range Control on the Range Control freq during night firing exercises and ask to have the grid lights turned on. This grid light generator has never been known to be operational, as Range Control usually responds to such requests with: "Negative, the grid light generator is down".
It's a comms static generator for really accurate wargaming. No more of this completely clear communications nonsense -- the trainees have to contend with barely being able to make out the words and sometimes making hilarious mistakes.
How about a training aid gyro for something "old" that needed a gyro (e.g. Navy deck gun, WWII era fighter/bomber...)
Am I getting warm?
by Oldloadr on May 24, 2007 12:58 PM
Its the prndl assembly, minus the kanibbling pin and muffler bearing. Used to adjust range of motion when AO is located in regions where the right to keep armed bears is exercised.
(That ought to send the Zoomies in to a tail spin...)
by BloodSpite on May 24, 2007 9:35 PM
"Hadda look "Edelbrock" up!"
- Snort!
I guess that eliminates Amal, or a Miller-Offenhauser do-dad ...
Cheers
by J.M. Heinrichs on May 24, 2007 9:38 PM
Must be Army, Arty. Neither Navy or Air Farce painted parts red.
It's a Redleg Retread Pegleg Stabilization Unit. The wiring on the yoke axis is for sensors to pick off the pegleg angles, so it's tied into an analog computer, the Redleg Retread Pegleg Stab Unit Mainframe, which weighed 5,414 lbs and required the use of an M35 Redleg Retread Pegleg Stab Unit Mainframe Hauler (and trailer to carry the Mark VII (mod 2A6) Redleg Retread Pegleg Stab Unit Mainframe Generator Unit (Sled Mounted).
I could go on, but you will find all of this in FM 0-25-106-90(A), annotated.
The history of the RRPSU was short and sweet. In 1950, the Army found itself short of Arty officers, so it "retreaded" 29 of them at a previously unknown annex to Ft Sill, OK. The RRPs, all single leg amputee veterans from WW2, were outfitted there with the RRPSU, given a 5-hour refresher course in the advances of arty science, and sent to the war zone.
The RRPs were all assigned to the Second of the First of the Thirty-Ninth (Field Artillery, Light) where they became known for their hospitality on and off the battlefield, since the contractor for the RRPSU had generously made a liquid container out of the whole lower half of the Pegleg, which container soon found use as a liquid refreshment container.
Since the RRPSU had NOT been designed to operate properly in an alcohol environment, the sensor output to the RRPSUM was frequently out of calibration, with the result that the Redleg Retread Peglegs found themselves directing arty fire from the seats of their pants.
The Army found that such battlefield deportment was not in the best interest of fire discipline, and soon cancelled the entire program, and all the Redleg Retread Peglegs were returned to the CONUS and re-retired.
They are now known as the Redleg Retread Re-Retired Peglegs (RRRRPs) and they have their very own corner of the Officer's Club Bar at Ft. Sill, where their signature food and drink is Beer and Bean Dip. No one drinks with them much, because, of course, they do a lot of RRRRP-ing.
Dammit, Rivrdog, this is serious! I thought I almost had it, and then I read what you wrote, which completely erased my forebrain! And gave me diaphagm spasms! You bastard! You killed my mind!
BCR, he knocked me back to safe mode. I see only crudely-rendered images! I needa reset!
Interestingly, the closest anyone got was John S. Except he was answering the questions not asked. The two things I said I *could* have asked you about, but didn't, because they would be too hard (I thought) were the ones mostly correctly identified. The round gizmo is a check gauge, and the long, skinny thing is, in fact, a barrel-wear gauge. The only thing John got wrong was caliber - it's a wear gauge for .30 cal barrels, not .50. But since no size context was provided, John wins the Non-Contest! Of course, John really *is* a capital "G" Grognard.
The rest of you were inventive, entertaining, clever, and wrong, though some got tantalizingly close.
Let's see if this helps.
I realize that some of you will immediately think - "Hey! That works within the context of my guess!" True enough. Just remember I said... you were wrong, thus far.
Update! We have a winner. Dan. It is indeed, an early WWI British grenade, the Grenade, Hand No. 12, commonly referred to as a "hairbrush" or "jam tin" grenade, for obvious reasons.
Or is it? Finding one of these mostly intact, much less in as good a condition as this - is almost the Holy Grail of those who collect grenades. If you do find one out in the wild, and the person who has it knows what it is, you're talking many hundreds of dollars.
I know better than to try to sneak that by SWWBO.
These were not what is called 'artisan' grenades (though the Holdings of the Arsenal *do* include a couple of French examples of artisan grenades), manufactured in their generally poor-quality-and-reliability tens of thousands by all sorts of people and entities during the desperate early years of the munitions shortages on the Western Front. This was actually a 'sealed pattern' grenade, meaning there were blueprints, specs, etc. It used that pull-ignitor to light off the fuze train (missing in this example). In addition to the fragmentation plate, the box was filled with scrap metal to make it more useful. It had a very short service life, it's funny looking, not that many were made, it's relatively fragile... so of course guys like me want one.
This is a reproduction. Or at least that's the best assessment of people far more knowledgeable than I. And it was presented to me as such - and it didn't cost hundreds of dollars as a result. I got it from an honest chap in England. I could lay out the details of why it's a reproduction, and go through the discussion of whether it was created as a favor or with malice - but I don't need to - that's already been done, for those who care to study further.
Go ahead, take a look - which one does *this* one look like? If it *isn't a fake - well, then my son will get a little more money than he expected when he liquidates the holdings of the Arsenal after I start tapping kegs at Fiddler's Green.
� Secure this line!
I’m a collector of ww2 British militaria, and have run into the “too late to find cheap militaria” wall. I collect ww2 Commonwealth/British military items, and was quite happy to find your website with the abundance of photos of weapons and vehicles. I found a couple of shots of a British 2” mortar that I’m using as a general reference for building a replica for a ww2 British Para display. Do you have any additional close up photos and dimensions for the mortar? I would be greatly appreciated.
