I strongly doubt that all three female casaulties were Jessica Ellis.

TL;DR You triple posted this.

Heh. Kat may have suffered the greatest single attack of "Great Hall Echo" ever suffered by a post.

And then there was the other version of it that was still (thankfully) unpublished.

Yeah. kept denying me. and I couldn't see it when I refreshed. In fact, it's missing her picture that I tried to post.

Oh well, still someone to know.

Will this help?

http://www.militarycity.com/valor/3526801.html

The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the - Web Reconnaissance for 06/05/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.

"We weren't supposed to take her out" on missions "but we had to because there was no other medic."

Do they *have* another medic, now?

If so, pulling SPC Brown out makes sense (unless, of course, her replacement is also female).

If not, then I'd like to take a peek at the RAM the Chain fills out for a patrol...

Do they *have* another medic, now?

If so, pulling SPC Brown out makes sense (unless, of course, her replacement is also female).

why does it "make sense"? Why should they have to pull her out? My point, really, is why are those rules still in place? And, if she fits in with the unit, performs well, saves lives like any other medic, why is she being pulled?

You know, I read a book recently called "band of sisters". Any idea how many female medics have been injured or killed doing "non-combat"?

Bill, this is just stupid.

I salute "Doc" Brown for her service, courage and commitment. Damn fine soldier, as are her patrol mates.
The wussy chain of commnad, not so much.

I thought the F.U. of the day was going to go out to Mayday protestors, but now it's going to the US Army! What are they thinkin'!

Oh, What Are They Thinking? Trying to follow the law, which the breach when they have to.

Bad laws with bad enforcement lead to bad decisions.

So, a female medic going out with an infantry unit is against the rules, but a female MP on convoy patrol can earn (rightfully so) the same medal as a shooter and that's OK because that is an MP unit and not a combat arms unit. You know, a bullet doesn't know the MOS of the soldier it's heading towards, but when it comes to females in the military, congress can't find its collective a$$ with both hands.

Sorry, I said infanty instead of Cav... zoomie mistake...

Full disclosure: I am the proud yet concerned father of a female GI curently serving in Iraq.

Kat, as you pretty much said, the US army can't avoid being stupid if the governing laws are stupid. If there is now no medic i guess that's compound interest.

I guess one could draw parallels with gays and race. It's a jarring disconnect with what is otherwise a fairly meritocratic system.

However I don't think kicking a stink about it is much use without also targeting the rules and laws that are making it hard for commanders to do what might make the Army better. If there are no rules then one needs to make the commanders better.

And none of that will change until enough are aligned with the idea women on the front lines isn't a bad thing. Then the rules and laws might be altered.

Well then let me open the can of worms.

What is the problem with women on the front lines/in combat roles?

If a woman can do the job, she should be allowed to do the job. Period.

If the laws don't allow that, I say the laws are bad ones and should be changed.

"There's no good reason for it, but it's policy."

How many times have I heard that (or the equivalent,) in the last thirty years?

It just makes perfect sense to take a highly effective medic, who has demonstrated in the most concrete way the ability to function under the worst possible conditions, and reassign that medic to somewhere other than where that medic is needed most, and other than where the unit the medic is supporting WANTS that medic to be, solely because the medic is female.

I was in the infantry as an enlisted soldier, and the 19D cav scouts in the RSTA squadrons are cut from the same cloth. The platoon medic generally doesn't start getting called "Doc" until he or she has demonstrated that he/she has it together and can be counted upon when things get hot and nasty. The fact that "her" platoon called her "Doc" tells me all I need to know about where she really belongs.

What is the problem with women on the front lines/in combat roles?

So far, all of the physical objections that I know of have been put to bed because there many women who are doing so.

there are a bunch of "cultural" and psychological questions that are meandering around the edges. Most of which are about our own angst:

Mothers in combat (my mom once karate kicked my bedroom door off the hinges; I am thinking that OBL should be afraid)
Children left without mothers (I don't know if this is any worse than missing fathers, either temporarily due to deployment or permanent due to death)
Women more likely to suffer PTSD (I'm not sure that one has been settled, but certainly could be proven or disproven statistically).

Sex

But, like I said, we are already there. I don't know why we haven't crossed the line.

Oh...one more thing. we can't seem to wrap our minds around "selective service" for women. The draft.

I guess those are the top grumbles that I can recall.

PS...and some of you folks thought I was a conservative. ;)

If the laws don't allow that, I say the laws are bad ones and should be changed.

Amen

The fact that "her" platoon called her "Doc" tells me all I need to know about where she really belongs.

Double Amen

Have a care when making sweeping generalizations about things - such as extrapolating combat performance of women in the roles they now play vice the needs of a more generalized infantry combat.

There really are still some strength issues we've not yet fully examined - such as if we had 1/4 female-manned (heh) leg platoons doing the fighting in Fallujah how would that have gone?

What we have empirically shown is that in most roles in the current war, the gender exclusions are virtually meaningless - and the "cannot be deployed forward of the Brigade" and other nonsense should probably be scrapped - though it will take Congress to do that, the Services shouldn't just start ignoring it completely, if only for that whole "civlians are in charge" thing we hear so much about.

As has been discussed in this space and many others prior to this - much of the sex-related sorts of norm issues this fighting generation is already making moot, to include the issue of gays, though I still think *no one* has given me an adequate answer on why we keep boys and girls separate because it oft-times makes the women uncomfortable to be around the men in very personal situations the same sensitivity is blown aside for men made uncomfortable by the implicit sexual questions underlying the tension over gays.

Somehow, that just makes the men homophobic, but it's okay for the girls. I'd just like someone to tackle that one head-on without pretty much having to come to a "unisex" conclusion.

As I said, the younger generation may well be leading us down that path, regardless.

Given that it's a volunteer Army, I don't think we're going to see huge numbers of women applying for the infantry, and if we set (and uphold for men, too) serious physical standards that are relevant to high-intensity infantry combat requirements, then I say let's test it.

But thus far, every major Army that has tested it hasn't really been very satisfied with it, which says something.

Damian, CAPT H - I know the women have pretty thoroughly spread themselves through the Canadian artillery community - how do they fare in the Armor and Infantry communities?

I believe the Israelis have fewer restrictions on where women serve than we do - but are there significant numbers of women serving in line infantry units?

why does it "make sense"? Why should they have to pull her out?

First, because women are excluded from serving in positions that *require* them to engage in direct combat, i.e., as line infantry or tankers or artillery crews -- which we all know is Congress' sop to the feminists, pure and simple.

Second, because John's right. She's now a prime target, not for any military advantage the terrs would get, but from the propaganda value they'd derive from killing her: "See? The Americans can't even protect the women they honor as heroes from us."

Don't overlook the caveat I added, Lady Kat -- if they *don't* have a replacement medic, I want to see their Risk Assessment and the level of approval.

such as if we had 1/4 female-manned (heh) leg platoons doing the fighting in Fallujah how would that have gone?

Not good for the jihadists? The marines have the "lioness" program. How about the Army Amazon program?

Given that it's a volunteer Army, I don't think we're going to see huge numbers of women applying for the infantry,

Actually, I agree with you there. This isn't exactly the business world where a 50% female work force is going to translate into 50% female military force (though, it is at 30%, so...?)

and on the other point about being a different kind of war, per se, but it has been this kind of war since 1960 something. Patrolling out, coming back to base, etc.

Heh. The guys who fought at Hue or Hamburger Hill might have some disagreement with you on that.

I haven't looked lately - but the special programs that were designed to get the women to equivalent strength status, IIRC (and I could be wrong) took a lot of specialized training and extra effort/time, and didn't integrate well with what the boys were doing. But I admit my knowledge on that is old and weak - whyncha look into that and see what's up?

But, as I see it, you are essentially positing that there is no difference, it doesn't matter, and we should bull ahead.

Even though, thus far, every army that's tried it as far as I know, has pulled back from putting the women into the line infantry units.

But that doesn't matter, it's different somehow now.

All I see is that this war thus far has validated the Israeli and Canadian models of women integrated into the units less likely to spend their time "in the assault" such as artillery and armor, and yes, women assignable to infantry units... but I don't think we've answered the question on the issue of sustained infantry combat.

I think there is utility to studying that issue rather than just waving your hand saying "all we do is patrol anymore and they're good at that..."

Except we haven't really been putting women into those roles in a sustained fashion, have we? Outside of mounted units doing convoy escort (like Sergeant Hester) and the elements integral to the convoys the bulk of the patrolling activity you describe is being undertaken by all male artillery, Engineer, armor and infantry units.

I could be wrong, feel free to school me on that.

We've clearly shown women can defend themselves, and with the examples of Sergeant Hester, can take the fight to the enemy when attacked.

That doesn't lend itself to saying that infantry companies should throw open the doors.

I say let's test it, rather than just say, lookit Leigh Ann Hester! That settles the question!

That doesn't lend itself to saying that infantry companies should throw open the doors.

Sure it does. They should throw the doors open wide.

But only the women who can hack the requirements - mental, emotional, and physical - should be allowed to walk through.

Of course, you could say the same thing about the guys: only those who meet the standard should be allowed. Which is pretty much what I was trying to say with my shorter comment above.

As far as the CF is concerned, it's not easy for the women in the Combat Arms, but those who can truly hack it are accepted. Look at the tributes Capt Nic Goddard got from her peers, from the soldiers she fought and ultimately died with - they said she was the best FOO around.

The problems come when somebody - usually not somebody in uniform, mind you - decides that just because we've opened things up so that women can be in front-line positions, that some arbitrary quota should be in those positions. That's a recipe for disaster. Because those who can hack it are automatically tarred with the "quota" brush, and those who can't hack it don't get washed out like they should be.

The key is setting and enforcing standards - realistic and functional standards.

the elements integral to the convoys the bulk of the patrolling activity you describe is being undertaken by all male artillery, Engineer, armor and infantry units.

I could be wrong, feel free to school me on that.

First, I'll look up the PT thing, but, as far as I know from last reading (about 1 1/2 years ago) the training and final testing were the same. for instance, the Marine female boots have to do the three day crucible, just like their male counter parts and complete it in the same time frame, etc, etc, etc in order to earn their globe and anchor. That's what I recall off the top of my head, but I'll look up the rest.

In regards to "are there anymore out there?" and am I pointing to anomalies? I think there are a huge number of anomalies like this. I did the book review on "BAnd of Sisters". I didn't list out every woman, but two female marines, essentially part of the long patrol to "search women" during cordon and searches, were kicking doors, clearing rooms, etc like the male counter parts. There are many women medics who are part of PSDs and combat units, etc.

In the case of Cpl Priscilla (don't call her "prissy") K..., they ended up being tasked to find someone and stayed on patrol for five days. Eating and sleeping and...well, you know, everything, with the men.

There are so many "one here", "one there" reports of women going with the patrols. I think the way the stories are written and the way the stories are released lets people think that these ARE anomalies, that these women are going out on an hour long patrol and get to come back to base to wash their hair and paint their toe nails.

Somewhere out in Afghanistan last year, a woman Captain was leading her unit on patrols. Let me repeat - Leading. On long patrols in hostile territory.

I'll go and link these stories, but they exist to the degree that, to believe they are anomalies that add up to hester or brown seems, well, kind of purposefully blind.

then again, part of me thinks "quiet, quiet" because, if we make too big a stink, congress or the army will go on some sort of hunt and a bunch of women will be yanked from where they are which is not what is wanted or needed.

On a final note, I am always interested in the "be able to do what men do" aspect of this argument. Have you seen our army lately? Seriously...

Clearly, I can't communicate. And apparently I don't understand.

I give up.

Do what ya want. To hell with it.

I surrender.

Women everywhere, all the time! No more studies, nothing.

Just throw it open wide.

What the hell.

Because clearly I cannot communicate my ideas, and I keep getting shuffled into the "doesn't get it" corner.

It's not a good idea to have women in combat where they can be seen for the same reason that you don't wear the shiny rank emblems there-- draws attention, of a violent sort.

That would be basic tactics-- you KNOW women are hugely more likely to be weak, so it's *logical* to attack them first. Given who we're fighting right now, you can be sure they'd aim for the "weak" and "evil" women.

Unless you can totally disguise the fact that they're women-- ie, Navy pilots, maybe tank operators?-- frankly, John of Argghhh is right. This *should* be studied, preferably by people who are NOT trying to "Equalize" things.

It's the military; it's supposed to be effective, not fair.

Hence, why I used the 11' pole to escape, Kimosabe. ;)

What a load of bull...

Why in the HELL would the Army train women to be MEDICS, put them in a Cav unit... and NOT expect them to come under fire??? This is just plain stupid, like you said John. The US Army has gone STUPID.

My cousin is a Blackhawk pilot who has been under fire. Are they going to pull her out of her slot just because she's a woman who, in the line of duty, got involved in a firefight?

EVERY position in the Army has the potential of coming under fire with the way the current regs read. Pulling women from their slots just because they actually DID come under fire is a train wreck, and completely shuns the admirable performance of our women in uniform.

Full disclosure. My son is a Marine, combat veteran of Fallujah, MOS 0311. While women in certain roles is okay with me, for them to be in combat infantry roles is a line too far for me. My views are colored by my son's experiences as he has been Marine infantry, but based on what I know, women would have a hard time doing what he did.

Um, let's see: four days without sleep or food, 120 degree days, 35 lbs body armor with full SAPI plates, full backpack and hydration system, three SAW drums hanging on his body, a SAW, etc., etc. More than 100 pounds when fully outfitted, and then to take this on satellite patrols, jump off of house roofs, etc.

Sorry folks. If you want to put women in combat, you are going to have to address this little thing called testosterone. God made it, not man. It ain't my fault. We're different by design. Celebrate it.

Also, if you want women in combat infantry, then make them do the same quals as men at Parris Island. There is still a HUGE difference.

Facts is facts. Now, as I say this, my daugher is going to go into Navy nursing, and so I will have two serving. But they are serving where God gave them the skills, gifts and physical capabilities.

One more thing. The Russians used women in infantry in Afghanistan in their campaign, and found a disproportionate high number of lower extremity injuries: feet, ankles, knees. Out of commission for protracted periods, affecting the unit.

Best,

HPS

http://www.captainsjournal.com/2007/09/01/mos-0311-a-young-mans-work/

Sorry, but as a followup to my previous comment, don't rely on stupid, whitewashed, glossed over published comments about boot camp at Parris Island. My son was there. There is, and forever will be, a difference in the PT requirements to pass. Again, testosterone.

Hey John, it sounds like you're frustrated, but not convinced. Maybe we're just not listening well enough. Care to have another go explaining your concerns to us?

I've been an infantry squad leader, and a TOW section leader, and a tank commander and platoon sergeant in an armored unit. After thirty years of being around soldiers, it's my considered opinion that some women can successfully serve in front-line combat assignments.

Not all women are suited to be infantry, but then not all men are, either. If they can't move out and march carrying 90+ pounds of gear, they shouldn't be there. A woman in an M1 tank crew had damned well better be able to load that 68-lb HEAT round in the same seven seconds that her male counterpart is given, or she shouldn't be there. A woman crewing on a 155mm howitzer had better be able to hump rounds with the boys, or she shouldn't be there. We need to norm the PT standard to MOS, not to gender. Or simply make the whole Army meet the infantry standard...

Not all women can do that. But some of them can. Or they could, if they were given the opportunity. A lot of the guys I knew who were loaders on M1's spent a lot of time pumping iron to build upper-body strength, so that they could beat that seven-second standard by a significant margin. Some of the guys loading during 73 Easting were doing it in rather less than five seconds. Somewomen could learn to do that.

But a more serious problem is that the current society in the US does a lousy job of preparing young men and women to live together in the conditions of forced intimacy that one finds in an infantry fire team or a tank crew. We can learn to solve that one, too. But it's entirely possible that many people won't be happy with what we have to do to do so.

It just might be time to remind everybody *how* this whole kerfluffle started -- remember the Department of the Army's Commission On Women In The Service?

DACOWITS was formed, in good part, in answer to the feminista outrage (both in and out of the Howls of Congers) over the fact that *male* ossifers had a considerable promotion advantage over *female* ossifers because men could serve in the Combat Arms and women *couldn't*.

None of the parties involved had a clue that rapid promotions occur in the Combat Arms because that's where most of the *casualties* occur...

It may not be commonly known, but women have been in combat areas for some time. Consider these decorations recieved by my mother, Cora Defibaugh. From her seperation certificate information:Classification-Flight Nurse3434. Battles and campaigns: LuzonWDGO 58-45, Southern Phillipines WDGO 58-45,New Guinea WDGO 58-45, Western Pacific WDGO 48-45,Bismark Archipelago WDGO 33-45. Decorations: AP Campaign Medal with 1 Silver Service Star and one Bronze Service Star. Philippine Liberation Campaign Medal, Air Medal with Oak Leaf Cluster Per GO"266 Hq13 AF22 Dec 44& GO FEAF 3 May 45, 3 Overseas Service Bars, American Campaign Medal, World War II Victory Medal. During her service she was in a C-47 with wounded which was forced to ditch at sea, Flew into airfields where Japanese fire was a very real risk,came under fire and was in harms way many times. She was just one of numerous women who served in USAAF air evacuation. She has never talked much about her service period, probably because when they shipped out to return to the States they were told not to talk about what they had done. To those women in service today who may go in harms way, I say this. God bless you and keep you. You are serving in the tradition of those who have gone before you. You are all a part of what makes up the American Spirit, and a part of what makes the future of our country.

There was a female Marine who commented here a time or two, and then left and didn't come back.

I took the trouble to look up her blog and found that she was invalided out of the Corps, against her wishes, for stress fractures in her leg bones.

She struck me as a rather tough and earnest person, capable of ignoring pain (she claimed to have run a mile or so in training with a cracked pelvis)

but, ah, sometimes the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak.

Thought this was how it was.

Spc. Brown aquitted herself admirably. God bless her, and well done soldier.

She should never have been placed in that situation.

who put the "c" filter on?

As I have read this whole story, there has been this one glaring omission. There seems to be this fixation on the sexuality of those who are serving this Nation in the Military. I will not argue there are differences, just like their are differences in personality. I believe as we move forward in time, we will hopefully, learn a great deal. This question about sexuality is not central. What is getting lost is the "actual-mission", we need to be "mission-centered." Then we find the best people, regardless of their sex, to fulfill the "mission". The U.S. Constitution states if we are going to put our troops in harm's way, we need a formal Congressional Declaration of War. The War Power Act, which allows our leaders to circumvent the Constitution, should be repealed, as bad law. It is at this point, the "mission" is stated in writing and verbally to the Nation. Then, the whole Nation goes to war, not just the Military. Every American finds his/her place in the mission.

This is my two cents on this issue.

As always,
Grumpy

I've quoted you and linked to you here.

Theoretically, we had hot showers back in the day.

Because -- theoretically -- the sun beating down on the 55-gallon drum "water heaters" would warm the water. Theoretically.

Also -- theoretically -- there were no US combat troops in the Mekong Delta after August of '69. Just us helicopter pilots, assorted SEALS and SeaWolves, Green Beanies, Mikes and Swifties, Air Force Black Hats, and Marine Tiger Teams. No *combat* troops, though.

And he's right -- the food was *awful*...

Yeah....Love that whole "theory" of war stuff.

I'd probably side with the guys outside the wire who wanted to use up all the hot water. They're the ones keeping the showers from getting blown away with rockets. A small nuance.

Heh. I was thinking the same thing and resisted writing anything about the rear echelon being often as far away from the grunts pounding dirt as any civilian far away from the battle field.

I think I gained a new appreciation for that after reading Bellavia's book wherein after ten days in Fallujah, they came out, dirty, tired, sick and barely able to move while they watched all the clean, spiffy uniformed guys line up and eat all the hot chow that had ostensibly been laid out for the guys coming out of Fallujah.

Gave a whole new perspective on REMFs v. ground pounders.

Thanks Kat! Today you made fat old man smile.

Martin

Hey, Martin! Glad to see you. I was hoping I had waited too long to put it up. We are fans around here of war stories so feel free to pop in once in a while to leave us a gem or two.

I think it was Bill Mauldin who coined the word, "Garri-troopers."

It was always thus, I reckon. I betcha the Legions had to put up with similar stuff.

Yeah...some centurion probably ticked off at the dude who ate the last of the gruel and woebil(?) laden bread.

My Old Man told me a couple of times about when meeting up with Yanks in WW2,the Canadians would gladly trade with your guys,the tinned mutton for the C-rats of yours......He hated the mutton as much as you guys hated the c-rats and swore the Aussie ranchers used to roll the carcasses in the fleeces to get that special flavour.....And he never ate mutton to the day he died ,either.

TINS: there i was, in north Ft Hood, on AT with an Evac Hospital.... late 80's(11H10, serving as the 54B, pending final school, which never came.)

after the better part of two weeks of fun in the garrison, the line troops we were supporting came back to the area and began washing vehicles.

there was much whining amongst the troops in my AO: "i went to take a shower at lunch and there was no water pressure."

a discerning eye could see the hose sprays over the building, and a blind man could see why water pressure was down.

i offered to escort the various whiners over to the wash racks where the 11's, 13's and 19's were finally getting a bath, albeit informally, so that they could ask that them to stop so the REMF's in question could get their additional daily showers.....

unfortunately, they were just smart enough to *not* take me up on the offer. %-)

/Harmony Church rules

From "Murphy's Laws of Combat" -- If the REMFs have new uniforms and boots, the troops in the sticks *don't*."

Kat - "weevil" Easy to tell the differences - weevils are insects that infest food and cotton... woebils on the other hand, well, they wobble, but they don't fall down!

Heh...John. I thought that looked wrong. I even had "woebils" when I was a kid with a little woebil tree house. they could fall *out* of that tree, though.

Memories from a trip to Fort Irwin in 1985:

1. The light infantry battalion completes its participation in the light/heavy NTC rotation and pulls back to its bivouac area in a picturesque portion of the Ft. Irwin reservation which rejoices in the name of "Lizard Gulch."

2. The ground surface in the bivouac area consists of a random assortment of rocks and stones ranging in size from stones the size of your head to boulders the size of a Chrysler minivan. Flat surfaces large enough to accommodate an individual soldier in a sleeping bag, let alone tents and parking areas for vehicles are conspicuous by their absence, with the exception of a large, very flat sandy area which is fenced off and marked with signs indicating that it is a breeding area for a nasty species of biting fly, that the fly is on the Endangered Species List, and that the fine for killing one of these rare creatures is $5,000 per bug.

3. In order to insure that the portable toilets can be serviced efficiently by the civilian contractor, all portable toilets have been set up adjacent to the hard-surface road 700 meters to the east of the bivouac area.

4. After a 24-hour rest and recovery period, all of the battalion's vehicles, including the mobile kitchen trailers, are moved to the railhead and entrained for return to the unit's home station. Battalion draws 10 superannuated 5-ton 6x6 trucks from prepo stocks to provide troop and baggage transport for the five days remaining until the unit is scheduled to fly back to its home station.

5. The heavy brigade and combat support group whose rotation the battalion is supporting informs the battalion that due to personnel shortages in MOS 94B they cannot provide hot meal support to the battalion, and that the battalion should prepare to assume a C-C-C ration cycle until it redeploys to home station.

6. The brigade sergeant-major informs the battalion sergeant-major that a shower point has been established in the brigade support area. The light infantry battalion is assigned a block time for use of the shower point from 1400-1600 each day. Many soldiers in the battalion greet this announcement with enthusiasm, as many have not had an opportunity to bathe in nearly four weeks, there being more important uses for water than bathing while fighting a war in the desert.

7. The following day, several hundred soldiers from the battalion climb into the fleet of decrepit 5-tons and set forth for the shower point. After 15 minutes of bumping across the large and larger rocks that make up what is alleged to be the "road" leading into the bivouac area, two of the seven trucks assigned to the mission have broken down, and their passengers are distributed among the five remaining vehicles, which are now about as crowded as a Tokyo subway car at rush hour. Having now reached the more-or-less-level desert floor, the convoy spends the next 30 minutes driving across said desert floor to the brigade support area in a cloud of dust.

8. Upon arriving at the shower point, the troops dismount from their vehicles and are amazed to discover that not only is there water left at the shower point at 1400 hours, there is LOTS of water available. Everybody gets a LONG hot shower, after which, with damp skin and damp hair, they climb back into their ancient trucks and drive 30 minutes across the desert floor in a cloud of dust before bumping over the boulders back to their bivouac area, arriving there feeling for the most part rather dirtier than they had been before they left.

9. Repeat, with suitable variations, until the buses arrive to take them to the airport.

Hey, Blade, at least it built character! [runs away, dodging and jinking]

Sign just up on the latrine door:

Water Conservation Now In Effect -- Combat Showers (3-Minute Limit!) Mandatory!

Bear in mind, I'm living with Air Force guys. Cap'n Chris asked me my thoughts on 3-minute combat showers.

"Great idea! I get an extra two minutes!"

It could be worse, Bill. I can recall one expercise in northern Honduras when we were bathing with canvas shower buckets and water shortages limited us to 1 gallon per man for showers.

It let us believe we were clean, anyway.

Morning Kat,

Just finished House to House on your recomendation and had already read Survivor a few months ago when it first came out. Wow...of all the books I've read about what is going on in Iraq this is deffinately the best. I'm passing it along to freinds. Anyone reading it should keep tissues handy.

Olbermann is loathsome, and MSNBC is even more so for providing a forum for him to spew his hate speech.

I will never be convinced that a good chunk of those people harassing Bellavia are paid Tu**knockers.

Soros and company have the bucks to do it.

I also know that David might be surprised by all the nutcases .... but he would never be intimidated by them.

Don't make me hunt down the pic of a guy in thong,gas mask and M4, and burn everyone's retinas.

Pat

...thong, gas mask and M4...

Huh -- and here I figgered you for a SAW kinda guy...

Since I still don't have a clue what that dataplate is stuck on - I think I'll just retaliate with this little illustration.

... don't worry if it's not good enough... for anyone else to FREAKIN SEE BECAUSE IT'S SO DAMN OBSCURE EVEN A DEAD GIVEAWAY DOESN'T HELP... just thing... thing a thong......

BAH.
HUMBUG

Thanks, John. There went lunch. LOL

The Object in Question was manufactured by Russki Enterprises a wholly owned subsidiary of Stalin Incrumbrenated.

This 450th petrol tank, engineered to precision Soviet standards was found by the Soviet military to be the first which didn't leak. Realising something terrible was afoot, it was decided to convert it into an ammo holder in case the подполко́вник inspected it and suspected Capitalist pigdog manufacture.

After invading Afghanistan to conquer the valuable pet rocks of the region the Red Army decided to beat a hasty tactical withdrawal when 4 dusty men with Soviet made AK47s defeated three quarters of the Soviet tank arsenal. Apparently no resistance was offered until an errant tank (well let's say vodka driven) accidentally ran over a tea house.

In a case of rare military equipment misplacement, The ammo container was left behind.

Then of course the Americans came just to prove they could do better, and because the untapped pet rock resources of the region were still up for grabs.

Finding this sterling piece of Soviet manufacture it was decided private UselessLazyWorthlessScum must be ordered to paint it because the wholly undesirable Soviet poo brown must be converted to the glorious gloomy grey standard. Said private either rolled the tank in the dust or sneezed the paint on it enough to hide the brown and thus earn him the accolade of having actually done some work. Of course in another extremely unusual case of military misplacement the cap was lost. Mission accomplished, the container was donated to the Afghani military.

Today this Soviet manufactured petrol tank is serving the Afghani military being a store of ammo having only moderate chance of blowing up in your face when used. It was attached to a scooter in a high powered initiative of the logistics Department.

This is a true story, it happened to a friend of a friend of mine.

COOL COOL COOL....
I'm adding this to my summer must-read list!
I remember her good/bad list very vividly, and am glad to see she took that, ran with it, and came out with a book.
Ironically, I'm listening to the audio version of "The Long Road Home", which is the story about the Sadr City ambush that killed 8- including Casey Sheehan- and wounded over 50 of our guys. It tears my heart out every time I turn it on.

I'm going to read that book. I just found it while looking at Lt Cdr Kraft's book. I have a full reading list actually.

Just got to get some time to do it in.

LtCdr Heidi Kraft is truely resplendent. She is an angel of mercy. Her beauty transcends worldly.

I learned to have special affection for Navy Doctors and Nurses waaaaaaaay back.

Um, editorial note. The money is being donated to the Injured Marine Semper Fi Fund. There is a difference.
Jus' sayin'.
0>;~}

Thank you Sly...sorry it took so long to notice your comment.

Kat, all jokes aside, this is truly an OUTSTANDING member of our military. She is also beautiful on both an inner and outward ways. She even has a brain that fuctions, YEAH! I figrure she is extremely intelligent, like the top 1,2,3,4% for an I.Q. I had a Father and a Brother who were tested and were found to be in the top 1%. When they talk of high IQ, The one thing that really stood out was how close all three were in my view was their sense and type of humor. It speaks volumes.

Grumpy

GOE did a demonstration of support at the Recruiting Office in Times Square that got bombed the previous day. I took the train up from Philadelphia. Great group of people. Rained on and off all day but, they had a party tent without sides set up for us. I can finally say "we played Broadway". We spent the day on that traffic island the Recruiting Office is on. NYPD &FD did a show of support with their cruisers, about 15 went down each side of the island. Cool.

M578 Drive Sprocket.
Heath

Ahhh - 'Tis good to see my own sprocket proudly featured at The Castle. Though I may remind everyone that its provenance is not from the Graf Spee, but from The Moat's Sand Pebbles.

BOQ

To be fair, it can also be found on the M107 175mm or M110 8" self-propelled gun.

Definitely the inside view, judging by the bevel cut where the bolt holes are.

My money is on the M110 since the clues point to "WC" for latrine designation. ;)

no idea what vehicle it came from, but your post brought back somf graf flashback-nightmares...

i was an air force weather observer attached to the 2nd acr out of nurenburg from 1982-1985. one night some of the rocket scientists manning the artillery battery walked their rounds across our bivouac area. lot's of heads rolled on that one from the battery commander on down. fortunately nobody was killed or injured. but hey, it was good training. got me ready for the experience of scud and patriot pieces raining down on us in riyadh during the great unfinished gulf war! lol...

hey, still love you arty guys though...

Methinks there is an exciting and not necessarily positive explanation behind this "key fob". My salty sailor friends would be likely to present such a trinket to a hapless comrade as a memento of a misfortune.
Can't you all envision some tank (or other tracked vehicle) driver/commander/or unit commander breeching a new entry into the outhouse/latrine (whatever you mud dwellers call them) with said tracked vehicle? Bet there was a whole lot of explaining going on after something like that.
Meanwhile I will check out the sprockets on M41, M47, M48, M60 tanks and the 8 in SP when I get a chance next week.

Never made it to Graf. I was a Wildflecken guy. Plus I was a combat medic so I don't know shite from apple butter when it comes to machinery. Still...good times, good times.

Info on LTC Anckaitis, he was the commander of 1/75 FA BN in the 1986 time frame..

http://sill-www.army.mil/FAMAG/1986/JUL_AUG_1986/JUL_AUG_1986_PAGES_18.pdf
http://www.lvmac.org/VetLibrary/Flashbacks.htm

He is apparently the Township Secretary of Palmer Township in Northampton County, PA

ranckaitis@palmertwp.com

Drop him an email and ask him....

(note all information from a Google Search of Public websites)

replaceable sprocket belongs to a M60A3 tank or M88 recovery vehicle as these have many common drive train components. By the way, I have changed many of these. requires much bolt twisting and bouncing on 'T' bar-cheater bar-tanker bar assembly. Most fun when accomplished at 0100, knee deep in mud wile snowing

There's only one problem with thinking the sprocket is from an M60/88 series.

The one shown has 11 sprocket teeth and 11 bolt holes, the M60/88 hull series drive sprocket has 11 sprocket teeth and 10 bolt holes and was a heck of a lot thicker. ;)

Boq - shouldn't that have been Graf's Pee?

If you look at the sprocket in a certain way, it almost reminds you of ...... a ship's helm.

And what would that remind you of, eh, John?

Maybe .. 2nd BDE ("Helmsmen"), 1st AD ("Old Ironsides")? LOL

personally leaning more towards Olaf's response than towards Eric's.... one would think that i would be able to remember how many knuckles get busted on each sprocket change for each vehicle type; but in any case, the teeth are too small for the M60 series.

btw, John: don't get target fixation. this may NOT be the key retention device for the latrine at one of the regular camp sites (Aachen or Normandy). the label on it clearly declares it to be the BOQ key, so now you would have to expand the possible sites to include the German style barracks (with bunkage included) that are over by Normanday, as well as including the BOQ near the old Officer's Club.

Graf von Boquisucio, mebbe?

Re the suggestion to email the Lt Col. I don't think the Colonel will reply. If I googled correctly it appears he is no longer with us. Not in the physical sense, anyway.

His obit notice is scattered about the web. The one I distinctly recall was at one of the schools he taught at, Virginia State University.

I've seen that, too. I tried, anyway, in case it's a different fellow.

You'd think the Township would have updated its website by now, though!

I was permanent party at Graf, until I found myself headed for VN. Last there in 1967, so the sprocket in question may have still been part of Mother Gia when I was there.
Woody

Ooooo. Bring home one of those launchers! I can make a kewl mailbox out of one of those!

Oh, and don't tell me you didn't have some twitches when you saw it...

That's right, Chief- we never heard the 'trolling-for-flak' TINS... that 23-4 should jog the ol' memory cells!

Oooh. Want that.

The 23-4 just points out where the enemy is. Handy in a fight. What makes me go "eeek" are US Army ADA batteries. They're MUCH more lethal. (Ask the Navy and the Brits.)

Put some Republican Guard troopers in the photo, then ring up Jane Fonda. I'm sure she would be happy to come out and pose.

The port fin is OBVIOUSLY not symmetrical with the starboard fin.

Cartoon Universe, I tell you!

That gizmo frightens me. I think it would try to eat me, if it were animated, and knew where I lived.

Trans-dimensional anomalous artifacts must be destroyed, as Atticus Finch shot the rabid dog with the Krag.

Bill, please tell us that it has been cut into itty-bitty harmless pieces, and said pieces burnt beyond recognition in a very hot fire, so that we might be spared from the consequences of whatever nefarious programs were built into its evil cognitive engine!

Looks like everybody needs some remedial Threat Recognition training -- the AA piece is a ZPU-4, featuring quad 14.5mm KPV heavy MGs. The ZSU 23-4 is self-propelled, mounted on a PT-76 chassis, because four 23mm guns suck up a *lot* of ammo and it wouldn't make sense to stick that configuration on a towed mount.

Bill, please tell us that it has been cut into itty-bitty harmless pieces...
Nope. But its teeth aren't fully-developed and it doesn't move very fast. Yet.

All this goes back to leadership and attitude.

No matter if your taking care of a $200.00 item or a 2 million dollar item. As noted, the attitude, of "we have always done it this way" is present in not only the Military but the large corporations and all inbetween.

Sometime it does take a revolution in thinking brought about by threats (and by making examples) of those that disregard those threats).

But it will take time, and money and new leaders that can learn and learn to think out of the box or at least not fall into the old ruts and not know how to get out.

I didn't have any exposure to maintaining anything in the service, except my weapon and my gear. But in the corporate world, I had to fight the old guard almost every day.

It got tiresome until we got authority to punish those nonbelievers in change.

Now that I'm retired, I teach my grandkids the value of maintenance and the value of money. It's a hard thing to do in this new "throwaway" world.

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

Dusty's right- an AF Crew Chief losing a wrench is a very big deal. Reason #1? FOD. Lost tools end up in places they're not supposed to be, which sometimes gets them sucked into places they're not supposed to be.

"sucked into places".... hmmmm... wonder what WereKitten would have to say about that...

I was going to state what AF sis did...my bro has been Air Force for 18 years. He was managing a crew that did repairs and stripped parts from the "bone yard".

He has some complaints also about not being able to manage the civilian end of that like a business in terms of promoting people, managing inventory and performing ahead of schedule. He felt that their system didn't really promote the idea of being an over achiever. Mediocrity with the "G" force was acceptable. That would irk him.

He did complain, however, about having to double and triple check work sheets, etc, but he also said that these systems did insure that nothing got "sucked in" to places it shouldn't have. In fact, there is an extremely high fear of failure. During the beginning of the shooting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, if an Air Force jet was reported "down to mechanical failure" he said everybody's butt holes would shrink to zero while they waited to find out if it was one of the jets they had performed maintenance on and the cause of the incident.

On to what other services need to do.

My bro is now a muckety muck with a fighter wing. He told me two weeks ago that his wing went TDY to SD for a little head to head war gaming with the USMC. Major malfunction: three days they couldn't fly because the USMC couldn't get enough jets off the ground.

I won't tell you the outcome once they did get off the ground but my bro's fighter wing is Air NG with a lot of old timers with actual combat experience. USMC, not so much. Guess what happened.

Still the important part was the maintenance aspect. He was shocked at the maintenance issues, though he tempered it saying that his maintenance guys did nothing but that and, as Dusty notes, other garrison duties appear to take away time from performing QM.

My old ARNG maintenance guru took a bunch of foam sleeping mats (which cost a couple of bucks, but are useless except when rolled up and used as pillows -- they're only a half-inch thick), cut them to fit the trays in the mechs' toolboxes, then cut templates for the tools. That immediately standardized everyone's toolboxes -- all you had to do was open a drawer and it would be obvious if a tool was missing or if one of the guys had brought "spare" tools to work.

That saved at least one engine from trying to ingest a wrench that had been left behind a FOD screen when the original mech got tapped for an area police detail to make the parking lot pretty for a visiting two-star. I'd love to say that it was the aircraft the MG was gonna fly on, but it wasn't.

I hate it when Real Life drops a shot at irony...

1. Shadowing tool kits (called CTKs for consolidated tool kits) has been required on AF flightlines since 1975.
2. I too, have spent a lot of time observing the other services maintenance/parts control. One thing I see in the Army now (and I had an Army LC [CH-47 Battalion CC] tell me) is any Army maintainer that excels usually ends up in WO school instead of being promoted in the NCO corps to train/mentor the younger troops. I'm glad Army enlisted have that advancement opportunity that we in the AF don't, but maybe it should be more restrictive.
3. Another problem I noticed is the Army culture does not lend itself to quality maintenance at the journeyman level. Whereas the AF expects a SrA to troubleshoot and repair all but the most complex problems, the Army seems to be more cautious about allowing the younger folks to make maintenance decisions and there-by slow down the process, resulting in decreased MC rates.

So, if you don't let the young ones make decisions and you send the sharp older ones to WO school, you are not going to have an impressive MC rate.

Never having served, I have no dog in this fight, except that as a private citizen, I want what's good for the Republic. You folks have had (supposedly) a unified Defense Department since before I was even thought of, and are still acting like territorial human monkeys.

Wait, that's normal...

Ok, we have to put up with some of that, just don't react against it and go all crazy in the rational direction like Mr. R. Strange McNamara did.

Oh, I think the odious smear by Cuban could have been balanced with a little Duty Honor Country. It's not like they or their kind pop in here to get all huffy about maligning their patriotism or anything.

Flip side, this is an "Information Operation" of just the kind that the government, and the military, is ill equipped to handle.

And plays right into the hands of our enemies.

Welcome to InfoWar.

Dusty, on the most part, in my humble opinion, the focus on "Rereading VietNam" was well done! In fact, I believe it should be required reading for all of our leaders. It would help them put things into proper perspective. There is an old saying, "He who does not learn from history is condemned to repeat it.

John,

If they thought a little outside the box, maybe the Bush White House COULD fight back. I detect a glimmer in the fact that their interest/acknowledgement of bloggers and talkshow hosts via meetings (witness the "summit" W had with Hugh Hewitt, Bill Bennett, Laura Ingraham, et al.) indicates they at least are reaching out to non-traditional news conduits.

If the Left thinks Rush is so powerful, well, let's see.

Here's something that should be known if you want to fight back in info wars. Know your enemy.

That's not even the disinformation part that the President could do. The real problem is that wars are won by taking the initiative so that the target is too worried about defending himself against what you are doing to him than thinking up nasties to do to you. Currently the US government, by adopting a "let's just sit around while they attack" stance, provides the advantage to the media, the leakers, and any other jackals sitting around asking themselves what they could cook up to grab some personal advantage.

They got plenty of examples to choose from. Sandy Berger. George Tenet. Valerie Plame. Wilson whatever.

Ymar - gezackly. Not coincidentally, I'm studying some of this stuff, from both the inside and the outside.

It's been informative.

I *could* be a bridge, but the inside thinks it knows what it's doing... and needs no help from the outside. Especially in DoD.

Dusty - check yer email.

So was the guy wielding the camera dumb or confident?

Cool video - I don't think I'd have stood there while the beast was blasting by above me!

I think he was just surprised. That was a very unusual profile.

Profile?? Looked head-on to me!

Cheers

I once had nearly as close a view of the bottom of an SR-71 as it approached the runway. I was in a truck on the access road around RAF Mildenhall and whover was responsible for turning the traffic light red must have missed that part of the checklist. I got to see the bottom of that big beast very close up!

That's a heck of a video of that hawg!

I thought the worst part is when they wanted "justice" for the death. We aren't talkinga about civilians playing with guns and accidently shooting somebody or a trigger happy police officer or an outright felonious murderer wacking some innocent who stopped to gas at the local convenience store and ended up in the middle of a robbery.

We're talking about combat. Though I understand the need to hold officers accountable for neglect or failure of command, I don't understand how this is "justice" for a death that basically occured in combat.

Maybe no CAS with coalition forces is the answer.

I think that particular solution is the equivalent of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Many coalition partners of the U.S. haven't got CAS assets that can integrate with you guys. If you're going to have coalitions at all, everybody needs to support each other. Pull the CAS, and you're crippling your military coalition.

Btw, here's a link to the transcript.

This sounds remarkably like a political shakedown - i.e., some Euro leftists in Britain upset about the war are going after our guys in this fashion because they know we can't possibly prevent every battlefield accident. Portraying Americans as out of control cowboys is a standard tactic of that crowd, as is generating fresh outrage about old combat realities.

Comrades,

I think that a better solution is to return the Air Force to the US Army. There is no valid reason for the United States to maintain an Air Force as a seperate branch.

The Navy can handle the ICBM's, Space Command, etc. The Army can have all of the CAS it wants. They can have the Strategic Bombers forces as well. Sounds to me like a win/win all around.

Respects,

Heh. AW1 Tim just made the target list.

Instapilot. The video and transcript can clear up many of your questions.

Trias - go ahead and fill in the blanks.

Trias,

Problem is, there are bits where you don't know who's talking to whom. The tape records everything you say into the mask. It does not distinguish between outgoing and intercom only and it does not distinguish between VHF-FM/AM transmissions and UHF. The radio you use is dependant upon which way you press the mic button and there are a couple of places where it may be that one party did not hear the other party's question/comment. I'll have to take a look at it tomorrow to try to clarify what I'm trying to say.

Not making excuses for 'em and Popov 36's attacks are made without final clearance, but I could be wrong...OR...the particular CAS type didn't require a final "Cleared hot." call (in some situations close control is not a requisite to employing weapons)...as I said, need to read it a little more closely.

"it's clear they were trying to distinguish the bad guys from the friendlies"?!!!

They weren't trying very hard! They mentioned 'orange markings' several times but helped each other to come to the conclusion that they were 'orange rockets'!

Yet another instance of gung ho amatuer ANG american pilots not wanting to RTB with unexpended stores.

The US embassy spokesman said it was clear the pilots were 'contrite'; I couldn't hear it. Worried that they were in trouble 'we're in jail dude', quite possibly.

Although why? No inquiry (was there really one held?) has ever penalised an american for killing allied troops.

For those of you with short memories, the majority of British deaths in the first gulf way were caused by american 'friendly fire'.

The attempted withholding of the cockpit tapes, and the continued refusal of the american authorities to co-operate with the inquest just confirms our impression of cowardice and ultimate disrespect of the US military/political body.

"it's clear they were trying to distinguish the bad guys from the friendlies"?!!!

They weren't trying very hard! They mentioned 'orange markings' several times but helped each other to come to the conclusion that they were 'orange rockets'!

Yet another instance of gung ho amatuer ANG american pilots not wanting to RTB with unexpended stores.

The US embassy spokesman said it was clear the pilots were 'contrite'; I couldn't hear it. Worried that they were in trouble 'we're in jail dude', quite possibly.

Although why? No inquiry (was there really one held?) has ever penalised an american for killing allied troops.

For those of you with short memories, the majority of British deaths in the first gulf way were caused by american 'friendly fire'.

The attempted withholding of the cockpit tapes, and the continued refusal of the american authorities to co-operate with the inquest just confirms our impression of cowardice and ultimate disrespect of the US military/political body.

"it's clear they were trying to distinguish the bad guys from the friendlies"?!!!

They weren't trying very hard! They mentioned 'orange markings' several times but helped each other to come to the conclusion that they were 'orange rockets'!

Yet another instance of gung ho amatuer ANG american pilots not wanting to RTB with unexpended stores.

The US embassy spokesman said it was clear the pilots were 'contrite'; I couldn't hear it. Worried that they were in trouble 'we're in jail dude', quite possibly.

Although why? No inquiry (was there really one held?) has ever penalised an american for killing allied troops.

For those of you with short memories, the majority of British deaths in the first gulf way were caused by american 'friendly fire'.

The attempted withholding of the cockpit tapes, and the continued refusal of the american authorities to co-operate with the inquest just confirms our impression of cowardice and ultimate disrespect of the US military/political body.

"it's clear they were trying to distinguish the bad guys from the friendlies"?!!!

They weren't trying very hard! They mentioned 'orange markings' several times but helped each other to come to the conclusion that they were 'orange rockets'!

Yet another instance of gung ho amatuer ANG american pilots not wanting to RTB with unexpended stores.

The US embassy spokesman said it was clear the pilots were 'contrite'; I couldn't hear it. Worried that they were in trouble 'we're in jail dude', quite possibly.

Although why? No inquiry (was there really one held?) has ever penalised an american for killing allied troops.

For those of you with short memories, the majority of British deaths in the first gulf way were caused by american 'friendly fire'.

The attempted withholding of the cockpit tapes, and the continued refusal of the american authorities to co-operate with the inquest just confirms our impression of cowardice and ultimate disrespect of the US military/political body.

"This sounds remarkably like a political shakedown - i.e., some Euro leftists in Britain upset about the war are going after our guys in this fashion because they know we can't possibly prevent every battlefield accident. Portraying Americans as out of control cowboys is a standard tactic of that crowd, as is generating fresh outrage about old combat realities."

The old bollocks!

The fact is we in Britain are pissed off being involved in a war whose prime concern is US oil supplies, and the lining of Bush/Runsfeld/Cheney's pockets!

Looks like a trident, but I highly doubt that's what it is.

Now *there's* some outside the box thinking!

is that the thingie what the Observer Controllers out at the NTC used to use to chunk out the air burst arty simulators?

Nope - we used pyro pistols.

Oh yea a gunner's quadrant and a panoramic telescope ... combining that with the pneumatic pressurized device we come up with a semi-automatic golf ball shooter rigged for high angle fire.

This devise was siezed from terrorists who were using it to confuse Tiger Woods with floods of decending golf balls and throw his entire game off.
Perhaps now that it is friendly hands, his game will improve.

...and the leveling bubbles use compressed air, so ya really really know that it's extremely very well exactly horizontal...

And here I was gonna say a 1913 Rossenfutz cypher. Drat.

Oo easy :-/

I looks old. Pretty damn old. I'll vote WW1 old.

It's not German. Maybe British.

Maybe a rifle?

Windage and elevation site.

On a... let's see...

A 19-oh-10 Turkobritsh Mauser, Mk2, w/ vertical bayonet mounting.

SMLE rear sight, maybe a shotgun conversion used by India or.......working..

Micrometer rear sight No.4 mk1. Fits on reciever bridge not barrel. maybe..

I'm guessing a bayonet mounting also, but that's the extent of the guess.

Loks like the rear receiver bridge and rear sight assembly of a British SMLE number 1 Mk 3 of WW1 vintage.

Actually, I assume that bump-thingy facing us on the right (forward of the receiver) is a charging handle of some kind (has slide marks on it, and depth is off). I would guess this is a carbine of some kind, and that the bolt is open?

If you mouse over the picture, you'll see some text... that is applicable to some of you.

It is not a bayonet mount.

Keep going - you're both closer and farther than you think.

Rifle No 4, Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield. Sorry no serial number ...

Cheers

Volley-fire sight on a No1 MkIII SMLE... one of you're rifles, I presume?

It is, indeed Neffi.

And no, that is *not* a volley fire sight.

I'll hafta post a pic of that.

Finally an easy Whatziss! Rear sight assembly of the British Mark V .303 rifle. About 20,000 of these rifles were made at Enfield 1922-1924. These were basically an improvement over the familiar No. 1 Mark III Short Magazine Lee Enfield of WW1 fame with the rear sight on the receiver instead of on the barrel, for better sighting. (Much like the relocation of the rear sight on the U.S. M1903 and M1903A3 rifles.) Everyone should have one! Maybe more than one..... I first saw one of these in 1960, in a barrel of .303 rifles at the John Wanamaker store in suburban Philadelphia, all priced at $9.95. My Mom wouldn't buy it for me. :-(

Fortunately I watch Monte Python, so I know it is a beer bottle opener cleverly affixed to a WWI era Brit Enfield.

Unfortunately, no shipments of bottled beer made it to France. They did howeve make it to Australia, where little Bushmen devised Brit Enfields out of them and overthrew the Australian Women's Temperance League.

Up the British!!!

John, your "mouse over" clue sucks a$$.

meanie.

.... and I mean that in the best possible way. You're collection is indeed very interesting.

(mouse over the picture to see if you can figger out why I misused "you're")

yeah. I'm being a smarta$$.

John S, (I shoulda disqualified *you*) gets it right.

Lee Enfield SMLE No. 1 Mk. V - the interim rifle that led to the No. 4.

In fact, I think I *bought* this one from John.

(shakes head sadly)

No *wonder* he recognized it - it's in his Bound Book!

BTW, John - didja write this, channel this, or plagiarize this?

AFSis - *whatever* do you mean, dear?

heheh....... nice fix, John.
But at least I got you to giggle... cuz I know you did. Right after you let out a big sigh and a "JEEEZ! Denizennes...."

I didn't do too bad considering I've never seen a gun.

Is the grippy thing a sight?

Sis, you weren't the first to call John on it- note my comment above, eh? Perhaps I wuz too subtle... ;)

Trias - the "grippy thing" if I'm guessing correctly, is the sliding rear sight. For long range shooting (vice "battle sight") you flipped up the ladder and then moved the slide to the appropriate range marking and started blazing away.

Neffi - I ignore grungy old men in favor of cute chix.

Really, like I should have to say that.

This is just a pathetic cry for attention on your part...

8^)

hahaha!
Neffi... I totally missed that. Good call!
Next time, perhaps you should flounce about with a bikini clad gurl to get John's attention.

OK ... another WAG.

Something like a 1" or 37mm plastic, disposable "Shotshell" round for either a flare round, smoke, or maybe some other CS or riot control agent?

I haven't been able to find another pic elsewhere on the net, but it sounds like some kind of new-fangled, plastic, once-shot, non-lethal, riot control or crowd dispersal round or something like it.

That's pretty much it.

It's a french baton round - in this case firing a round rubber ball.

A rubber ball? Now that's tennis.

Wouldn't it still be lethal?

From close enough range, hitting the right place, yes. But these are very low-charge rounds.

oh... how very French.

WOW!

John actually found a spent FRENCH casing!

(ok.. snarky attitude off)

Riot casing, AFSis. In other words, one they used against themselves...

I know- I'm just surprised they fired off a round at ANYONE.

IIRC, the French could be pretty brutal, especially to their "colonials" in Algeria, Indo-China, and Africa.

Which is why the word "hypocrisy" comes to my mind whenever they call us Americans "imperialistic" and whine about the "atrocities" of Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.

The Sweety has one of the Brit rounds (projectile in fired case) sitting on the chest of drawers in her bedroom. It has been mistaken for, uh, something else. Hers seems to have a longer case, anodized black.

spent shell casing

*Someone* (meaning me) left that too open.

You are correct. Round 1 to AFSis.

Round 2. What type and purpose?

Oh, and figuring out caliber would help, too.

I might give a size clue (though I've posted enough things where the picture was taken on that table you guys should about have the grain pattern memorized!

See? I toldja the next question would be "ok... but what KIND of shell casing?".

This is where I jump ship and let the real gun grognards take over.

That being said... I'm pretty proud of myself right now!

"shot" glass, about 2.5 oz.

40mm Grenade?

That's my uneducated WAG....

Comrades,

Hmmm... .52 calibre Spencer Rimfire. Or not... Perhaps a Maynard carbine round. Hard to tell without a scale for reference.

Respects,

AW1 Tim

i'll guess it's for a flare launcher of some kind

A spent casing for a 40mm illumination round?

Which 40mm would that be, Frank?

No matter - no, it is *none* of these things (though the 40mm flare is moving in the right direction).

Al - you *could* use it as a shot glass, but it would take some serious cleaning up.

Not that I haven't got something similar.

Nuts late again, and I was gonna guess the tip off the leg of the folding table we used in the yard to support the neighborhood parade. But NOOOOOOOooooooooo I should be so lucky as to find that thing.

jim b moves on smartly

Illumination/flare round (case) from french artillery. I say french cause of the egg grenade time frame and the fact it was probably a white flare.

It looks very similar to the 37x122R plastic baton round here:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/grenade.jpg

Ah, yes, Frank - like this one from the Archives of Argghhh - already covered.

It does, indeed look similar.

Except that it's made of a different material.

Has a different length.

But you are sniffing down the correct path.

Form follows function, some say.

That guy owes me for the traffic I send his way... 8^)

I have misled you. The egg grenade is solely for scale (it was handy when I took the pic) - time frame is 80's.

But Al *has* sniffed out a clue - if you can capitalize on it!

Maybe a round for a WW1-era Vicker-Crayford 1.59" (40x79R) trench gun?

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/MCRel5.jpg

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/MilRel.htm

OK .... that's it for my WAG's. LOL

Cartridge case for the 1WW French 37mm cannon:

http://63.99.108.76/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t8992.html

Cheers

An early flashbang shell?

Not that i know much about flashbang.

All I have to say is hecky-doodle. I found this definiton over at wikipedia and this
life-like action figure (click on image to enlarge) but all I can say about that hunk of metal there is hecky-doodle. Perhaps it is a small shield to ward off bayonet thrusts from the enemy.
~Human beings are strange animals.

There is at least *one* site on the internet where a photograph of this gizmo (and a description) can be found.

But you guys will have to connect at least one more dot to get there.

Another ring puller? This'n would be a hand-free device ('cause ya don't want to use both hands to operate the grenade while driving).

Eric - almost. You are *so* close to the dot that you're almost there.

Now twist your thinking just a bit.

Hokay... little research here... WWI German grenades used friction igniters, not the pin-releases-lever percussion thingies. Um...
Looks like some of the potato mashers had belt clips. Clip the grenade to this thingy while unscrewing the cap and preparing to pull the little twisty wire? (I assume you'd want to unclip the grenade from the whatziss before actually pulling the wire....)

Keep looking Eric. That's a dead end path there, but there's a nearly-parallel one nearby...

Lessee, now...
I'm assuming that "friction igniter twisty wire puller" would be covered under my initial guess of "ring puller," and I'm not coming up with any reasonable further guesses, so it's time to get unreasonable.
Anti-litter device for collecting the twisty wires? Can't go dropping 'em on the battlefield.
Clip for restraining the shoulder strap of a laptop computer bag? Having one of those steam-driven laptops flapping around is so inconvenient....
Alsatian insignia holder?
UHF radio antenna?

Well, the Steilhandgranaten didn't use wires... they used strings with ceramic balls on the end of them, so no need for a twisty wire puller.

Keep looking... yer almost there.

Yer in the right neighborhood, but at the wrong address.

Support plate for a drum-fed LMG like the MG15? Very useful when assaulting a trench...

Neffi - nope. Eric *almost* has it.

Bearing plate for a flame thrower? Strapped to the back and allowing the firer (unlucky SOB) to swing the tanks on and off more easily?

Hunter

Nope. Eric is still in the lead.

Its a carrier for something that an assult trooper would carry but only need intermittantly-wire cutting tool perhaps?

Its a carrier for something that an assult trooper would carry but only need intermittantly-wire cutting tool perhaps?

Sounds like Eric is on the right track with the "hands-free" bit, but seems like it's built so that you could use 1 hand to loop a stielhandgranate on this device, pull it over with the handle so that the grenade end is wedged in the "V" welded to the plate, then twist the base of the handle to release the ceramic ball to pull it and arm the fuze. All with one hand, so that the other hand could continue to utilize another weapon simultaneously.

Just another WAG, though. LOL

Hmmmm. Let me make this clear.

*Forget* the woodhandled grenades with the ceramic balls on pullstrings.

That were made of string, not wire.

However, don't leave the street, just move down a block or two, so to speak.

Yes a carrier sounds good. Maybe something so that those grenades talked about in an earlier whatizit that fires off the weapon could be put on the weapon quickly.

Comrades,

Well, my vote is for either a wire carrier for a field telephone system, or a carrier for the hose for a flame thrower.... either one's a good guess...

Alternately, it could be the backside of a sign...

Respects,

AW1 Tim

Still sounds, though, like it has something to do with grenades.

Perhaps not the fancy, factory-produced Stielhandgranaten, but the home-made, improvised ones that were held together by wire? I saw several WW1 photos showing Stosstruppen with them.

It's hand-held fiddly bit armor.
DUH.

Nope. Go looking for WWI german grenades guys - the truth is out there.

OK ... I think I found something that looks very much like it here:

http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/utah/894/militariaforsale/index56egggrenade.htm#

"This is an extremely rare plate worn on the breast and used to pul the egg grenade fuses."

Bingo!

Mine is in much better shape than that one, obviously!

Bugger me $37 for a bit of rust.

Ah - but it's *rare* German rust from France.

Makes *all* the difference in the world.

I paid $15 for mine...

For some reason it reminds me vaguely of a mortar base plate.

Because its... rectangular?

Pretty thin steel for that application, however.

A WW2-vintage US military vehicle HAZMAT placard holder?

It's a holder for a 'Men Working' sign, circa 1768. They were used extensively in Pennsylvania to warn of highway construction. Oddly, highways weren't even around yet. That Ben Franklin sure had foresight.

WW2, British, tie-down fixture for the notoriously flimsy "flimsy Tommy gascan".

I think, I guess.

It looks a bit like the backside of a sign but the strapping has me guessing.

Part of a trigger for a mine of some sort? The dowell like part being the pressure sensor. German maybe? WW1?

Another pic!. That helps a bit. It's not a sign perhaps some kind of trap or stabilizer. It looks like the middle prong moves sideways a lot.

WW1 attempt at personal body armor? That's the only guess I can come up with.

It's a coil spring! That *was* easy...

Nuh uh!
That's the spring I borrowed from Tigger to help me bounce up to my chandelier perch!

Okay. Neffi wins! Heh.

Now to be a lefty media type and move the goalposts.

Purpose and application.

Damn.
He only wins because he said "spring" first.

hmmm.... wonder what I'll win if I say "JUNGLE ROOM... NOW".

You already get a prize for the first person to link to the Castle with a post titled, "Doggie Style" that leads to pictures of beastiality...

Finally something I recognize! It's a bed spring. You can't imagine how often I have to have these replaced. I don't exactly see how this fits in The Armorer's world. I wouldn't classify it as a weapon.

Spring from the bottom of a magazine? Pushes the plate to force the ammo up?

Looks like a really small buffer spring. For what... no idea. Probably a handgun.

hehe... I knew you'd be proud of that link, John.

It's the firing pin spring for a Mills Bomb. I'm not certain of the No and MK, but the whole family is essentially the same. With a base plug, percussion cap ignitor, slow fuse, striker (the hint) spring (the questioned item), a lever which retains the striker on that ledge at the top of it, a cotter pin/ring which retains the lever, and everything wrapped in a cast iron body with a filler plug up on the side opposite of the cotter pin.

http://www.millsgrenades.co.uk/

I have two No 35 Mills bombs at home with empty explosives wells and drill purpose fuses (ie, non functioning). Neat piece of kit.

That should read, two no 36 Mills bombs...(typo).

Mainspring for a Tokarev?

torsion activated boot scraper?

Whats left over after making screw.

Heh. Sometimes, Mike - I think you don't take this seriously...

everything's a boot scraper, if ya really thinks about it....

Missed the boat again.

Mike - No, not everything.

A "pre-plastics" GUMBY!

Barbarian! YOU'VE FRIED GUMBY!!

Heh--great minds think alike. And at the same time, too...

LOL .... I'm humbled. But yours was much funnier! LOL

I'm humbled. But yours was much funnier!

No, it just means John has to figure out how to whack us both with the same snark...

Barbed wire cutter from the last great war?

Al,

Kinda like this?

http://www.cybershooters.org/Royal%20Armoury/Enfields.JPG

Gezackly - though that guy's cutter is in a *lot* better shape than mine, mine being a Somme battlefield recovery.

Way to go Al - with follow-up by Frank!

Hey! I've got all those rifles on my walls, too!

Well that was shot down quick.

Comrades,

OK, then... how 'bout that gizzee is the spring that pushes open the handle on the grenade when the pin is pulled?

Other than that... ya got me stumped...

Respects,

AW1 Tim

...and for a Mills Bomb!

It's the safety pin to hold the safety pin in. Maybe it's French or Irish then.

Damn Neffi beat me to it. Now if it had been a gammon sticky bomb.....

Damn Neffi beat me to it. Now if it had been a gammon sticky bomb.....

Comrades,

Actually, it's called a "bomber's hook" and may be seen here:

http://www.millsgrenades.co.uk/mills_grenade_accessories1.htm

Along with other accessories for the Mills grenades... very interesting site:)

Respects,

AW1 Tim

Toldja it was on the web...

Heh. And there goes a whatzit down the tube now that you've found that place. Snerk!

now that we know whatziss, is that the sproinger that makes the spoony go sprung, or whatzidoo??

I thought AW1 Tim's link covered that - it allowed the bombardier, in crappy weather, perhaps wearing gloves, as well, to pull the rather stout pin out of the Mills Bomb.

Hook two fingers around the vertical element (in the original picture), use the hook of the horizontal extension to snatch the pin, pull!

...no worries, John; I shall refrain from demonstrating my ample butt.

Cowards.

Or yer busy.

I'll assume busy.

Comrades,

OK... I'll bite... how about a safety pin for a shell or fuse of some sort? Perhaps a German or Russian safety pin for a grenade or rocket? Maybe a mine?

Originally i thought it might be a "pull before flight" type of pin, but it's probably too small for that.

Interesting thingee, that.....

Respects,

AW1 Tim

Assumption "Busy" is correct. However, I've got time enough to guess that it's the safety pin that came with the old-style OD first aid kit slings. Must've been a real wet battlefield...

You're actually dancing around it, kinda.

A broken-off blanket pin.

The other half of the tavern puzzle Montgomery was working on before D-Day.

JTG - creative, but hardly Armorer-like!

Cricket - even more creative than JTG - because that *would* be Armorer-like!

You go girl!

Yer wrong, but you rock!

Comrades,

OK... What torques me is that I've seen that thing some where before.... oh well...

I guess I could guess that it's the pin from a friction primer? However, it looks over-engineered for that sort of thing. Which means it's likely English-made.. snerk...

Respects,

AW1 Tim

Could it be the release pin for a claymore-like device?

Looks to me like some manner of linstock, but that's entirely the wrong century, not to mention being inconsistent with today's hint.

I agree it looks like a pin or maybe a stabiliser for something. It looks disposable too.

Congratulations MajMike.

I had trench maul once. Doc gave me a shot for it.

What the heck is a trench maul? Do you club the intruders with it?

Chuck, it's for playing Whack-a-Hun in the confines of a trench or dug-out... all sides used 'em and most are equally nasty.

A mace. Or rather rusty metal wood and leather. Placed gingerly on the indicative scale ascertainer and given a highly revealing angle.

heh... and here i was thinking it was going to end up being a ratchety-like gear for some kind of old torsion flinger thingie...

...and btw, nice caltrops ya got there too!

Ah, an elevation adjusting gear!
Used for adjusting the enemy's elevation from 90 degrees to zero.

Eric - I'll have to remember that one.

That looks like a very ouchful cluebat. I think, Yikes! just looking at the image. (I also think, how would I wield that, and how would I defend against that. Cain't stop thinkin'.)

No one yet? Well, here goes:

1. A mil-spec crayon sharpener (for marking the Armorer's fire templates, of course)

2. A Washington telescope (necessary to see the, well, [CENSORED BY PG-17z] of the average male politician

3. Sighting mechanism for the M-118 Smoke Dispensing System

Now seriously:

Some kind of spotting scope - but what's with the mirror on the narrow end?

Ye Olde Mk IV Fielde Artillerie Sextant for ye purpose of determinynge batterie centre to ye nearest furlonge...

collimating valometer for gauging the transit of rod grenade fired mud scrapers (French model?)

An early collimater?

The only lethal lawn sprinkler ever made.

"May I have 10,000 marbles please?"

Well a thingy on a tripod. Crystal clear too. You can swivel it and set it and a level as a bonus! And some glass on it's [censor]. It probably is a mirror. Some connector at top for what? a sight? a weapon? A chain for sick fantasies. And some kind of holder. Can I see a thread in there? Does something screw into it? Or is it glass?

It's looks very surveying to me. Telescope. The mystery is that glass angle. I think it's supposed to be at that angle but it's hard to be sure. The business seems to be the mirror end meaning we are magnifying here. Trying to look farther away. And the viewer is looking down?

I'm missing a lot here.

Well, it looks like a milk bottle on a tripod with armor so you can have milk in the field and the tripod helps you drink it sans hands.

Or, it could be the device through which democrats view the GWOT.

Or, Kennedy's well used "booze and broads" finder.

Oh-oh - Cross-thread contamination! Toluca is trying to bring those dam*ed cowboys from the thread next door in here and ruin our dance number!

"Not in the face!"

I love watching a liberal brain free-associate...

8^D

Looks like a heliograph. Mirror reflects the sun and you send Morse code by opening and closing a shutter.

Its a high altitude reconnaissance photo of the Death Star trench.

centerline of somebody's deck looking straight down from a bolter....

The Akagi at rest.

Mmmmm--nah. Wrong shape, wrong markings.

The Yorktown.

It is part of the DEATHSTAR that the Emperor and Lord Vader (or is it DARTH Vader) are building in orbit.

Sorry ... should read the comments closer before posting. But great minds think alike!

Larry's been reading too much NRO!

Some bit of Super Conductive material levitating above a magnet?

Heh. Looks like a tracer making a beeline for somebody's optics...

Nice image... Bill you gotta start hanging out in better bars.

Zarqawi's Private Santum being violated?

(just guessing)

Or, it could be a recently-declassified photo of a multi-aircraft NATO strike on a Serbian decoy.

*blink* What, nobody's ever caught sight of a tracer through the optics?

High-res shot of one of the many crystals which dangle from my Chandelier....

It's the light at the end of the tunnel that people with near-death experiences see.

SWWBO - It's the light at the end of the tunnel that people with near-death experiences see.

Heh. You and I are on the same wavelength. I em'ed John "...it could be the last thing Pham Van PAVN saw of Cu Chi as Tunnel Rat Gumby came down the tube."

Great minds etc., etc., ...

Eet ees thee teeny leetle casa een thee tequila thee warm leeves een...

borescope picture looking down the muzzle of a fuzzy gun.

And I thought the others were hard. This picture is ... a new study in ambiguity.

I like the deathstar concept. Use the force!

Pulls out +1 shotgun of randomised pattern guesshauling.

It's really hazy but there is that circle around and to the left of the rectangle which might be water pushed by air flow like you see helicopters do in the movies�.
er or RL for most of you guys.

So I think we�re looking at a top down view here. That stuff pushed is likely to be water. So that rectangle down there is some kind of sea going vessel.

Now this pic prolly is as clear as it gets so maybe that white stuff is the burn of a rocket/missile launched from said vessel which is pushing that water down below.

And then I run into a problem. What the hell is that antenna thingy jutting out. It has to be attached to the �rocket�. It looks kinda out of place and a drag maker. Maybe rockets communicate to control or something.

I have misgivings about the vessel idea but am stubborn on the water. It�s too grey. It�s too square. It has a great big black stripe dead down the centre a white blob and some cancer bitties on the left top. Maybe it�s a port dock. They often have transport things in the middle. Concrete is grey and if I twist my imagination more I could pretend those cancers a place to tie up vessels. But why launch from a dock? I�m not so sure it�s water now. A dock would be relatively flat strong and clear of buildings etc making it a reasonable launch place I suppose.

So best guess is that it�s a view of a dock taken from a rocket in launch.

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Trias- my sides are hurtin'.

Lessee. How to help here...

Something *is* floating in there, technically.

Lessee... this will prolly make it too easy for at least one of us...

TFOOL.

Sight picture of a TOW missile launch, aimed at a building?

Still can't figure out what the white thing is on the left, though.

LOL

Of course, that is *actually* misleading.

I'll amend it: SAD.

I'll be a bit Occam's razorish and just say it's a bad picture of the back of a speed limit sign in a blinding snowstorm.

Frank, along with Bill, is another bubba who has no excuse.

Frank, along with Bill, is another bubba who has no excuse.

It has to be looking thru some kind of sight - an aiming circle?
A bomb sight?
is that sight the right spelling? or is it site?

JoA - That's right--rub it in.

JoA - That's right--rub it in.

*love that echo...*

Wouldn't be a TOW shot--the reticle's wrong for hi-mag tracking.

Jaw-dropping stunned silence.

The Mistress of Argghhh, in a flip comment, an easy aside, a tossed-over-the-shoulder fillip, spanks you all.

Yes, dear, "sight" is correct. Site is a place. Or, more technically in this realm, the representation of the height above or below the gun that the target sits at, but *that's* a different post altogether.

So, do I get an Argghhh!!! t-shirt?

Why certainly, dear. (rummages through cards to find one of hers...)

Oops. Did I say that out loud?

How do I tell them my inner monologue -oh never mind.

How's that for miles out? I wanna aim to precision missles canicanicanihuhuhuh?

Oh, fine -- a WWII aiming circle.

You *know* I ain't familiar with that new stuff...

I think the guess people missed was... the scene from Close Encounters, where Dreyfuss, in his truck, sees the Alien at the road intersection...

LOL - sorry I missed all the fun yesterday! When I heard the word "azimuth", I had a sudden flashback and went looking for a bucket of mils. LOL

Yeah, John. Peons like me rarely got to see the view in the aiming circle itself. However, we did get a LOT of experience seeing the view at the OTHER end, through the gun's pan-tel into the collimator:

http://www.tpub.com/content/howitzers/TM-9-2350-311-10/css/TM-9-2350-311-10_252.htm

Ummm ... like sometimes after EVERY round when it was rainy and muddy, and the spades failed to hold during recoil. LOL

You better have been checking the sight picture every round anyway, boyo!

Oh. That probably explains that little "incident" in the Graf Main Post parking lot. LOL

Of course, we checked it. I meant that whole "relaying the gun/battery"-on-the-aiming-circle thing. LOL

Good. I *still* remember the 8" round on the mess hall...

And no, ladies, that's not a funny one to snark.

If you mean the one involving 12th CAV, no - not funny at all.

http://www.3ad.org/coldwar/coldwar_casualties.htm

May They All Rest In Peace

rifle grenade.

rifle grenade.

rifle grenade.

rifle grenade.

Mike - repeating does not make it so, but I believe that you may be close. However, I am inclined (as John is right devious) to think that the case is actually an artillery ignitor, rather than a grenade-throwing blank.
Nope, I change my mind, the case is the primer charge for a mine, and the other object is the pressure plate ( or as us cultured Eglish-speaking folks would say, - the presser plate. )

Mike - repeating does not make it so, but I believe that you may be close. However, I am inclined (as John is right devious) to think that the case is actually an artillery ignitor, rather than a grenade-throwing blank.
Nope, I change my mind, the case is the primer charge for a mine, and the other object is the pressure plate ( or as us cultured Eglish-speaking folks would say, - the presser plate. )

Dammit - repeated too! Good thing these electrons can be recycled!

Hmm well could be fun. Not in the military so ya gunna see a wild stab in the dark here.

Looks disposable and looks heat affected.

Activativing guess matrix.... Uhm a flare base?

John,

Isn't that the base plate (if I'm using the correct terminology) for a grape-shot canister?

that's looking like the tooth what bit the groove just to the right of the red band.

i'm guessing .30 M3 or M6.

...for chunking out a star cluster.

Nope. Nada. Zilch. Not a base for either a stand of grape or canister.

Or a star cluster.

Viven-Bessiere HE (French cast iron model)

MajMike - how does that conform with the rod-grenade theory?

Bounding airburst rigle grenade?

D'Oh! I meant "rifle."

Nope - but an entirely logical conclusion, based on the information thus far provided.

doesn't conform in the slightest... grasping blindly for scraps of nothingness in the ether of Google.

Fair enough. So, has anyone googled 'rod grenade' and started looking for things which have parts that look suspiciously like those pictured?

Just sayin'

Yer doin' well, guys. And this isn't quite the nut-crusher Bill put up...

Yer doin' well, guys. And this isn't quite the nut-crusher Bill put up...

'Tweren't neither no nut-crusher--'twere a paperweight.

Hmmmpf. Snarks from a guy who posts pix of a 1914-ish Austro-Hungarian bayonet stud taken through an electron microscope and then flopped...

Uhm what's left of an rpger after being bombed?

I need inspiration here. Ohmmmmmm

The base of an artillery piece?

How about if it's not military at all. An ashtray.. well it makes me think of ashtray.

Trias - a bit small for an ashtray, but stranger forms of trench art are out there.

[slips into reverie]

Sigh. I *miss* that electron microscope.

That's easy! That's one of those Mediaeval Castle Argghhh's Stove-Pipe Helmets for the Interior Guard. I'm sure Barnacle looks fearsome in it.

Heh. Boq - you got me wondering how to fit that on a cat for a picture...

hmmm.... scrapers?

Looks like the bit to go under loose shot, say before they started bagging grape shot.

Cover of a bagged charge container.

Cheers

MajMike - scrapers of what, I am intrigued.

A really small footstool?

As you may have guessed, I never have a clue with your Whatzis posts. They're fun, but not a clue.

Wanderer - if they were *easy* it wouldn't be fun.

For me, at least!

Hockey puck with a mullet?

scraper for the mud stuck up in my tanker boots if ya turn it upsides...

or (flailing wildly) if it is actually one of the aforementioned driving bands, and it was mounted at the base end of a projo with the flange-y looking things pointed down range, i could see where they could get pressed into the rifling and scrape some fowling out...

or i could just clean my boots.

but now i'm trying to reconcile two whazzis into some kind of a piece with a rifled bore slightley larger than a pencil which would fire loose shot or bagged grape using less than optimal powder...

still stumped, but now at a theoretically higher level of fantasy.

Ah, I see I have some clarifying to do in tomorrow's post.

This is part II. Part I (the driving band) and Part II are components of the same item.

pls, and i hereby retract my spelling "fowling" (unless it really is a piece for a birding gun, in which case that is exactly what i meant)...

It could be used for fowling, I suppose.

But not terribly efficiently.

But the soldier would have fun, definitely.

It's the helmet worn by Yosemite Sam when he disguised himself as Don Quixotic to pursue the lascivious Rosenadabugsy.

Cheers

A bullet stuck in kevlar or spectra cloth, viewed from the front as a guess. I'm presuming it hit something at low speed where the camera is and didn't go right through.

A mummified nipple.

(sorry... that's the first thing that came to mind, John)

Sigh. Geez. Yew chiks.

An igniter & bagged charge.

An ordinary housefly on your (or someone else's) hand

Heh. Okay, that scale isn't *that* small!

When I'm checking to see if my bottle of Chianti is truly empty, it looks something like that!!

The bundled parachute of a flare or other round?

Yarn, ball of, for cats, amusement of, No. 2 Mk. I.

A shrouded stand of grape shot?

Emergency bayonet wound plug?

;-)

Egyptian hand grenade.

1. The weave of the papyrus casing identifies it as late Early Upper Middle Kingdom, probably from the armory at Abydos.

2. The camel hair twine securing the casing and fuze further identifies its source of manufacture as the west bank of the Nile.

3. The clincher is the use of a mummified nipple as a fuze.

I think that Old Fat Sailor has it right: canvas wrapped case shot, held together by marline.

See? Even Bill thinks it's a nipple.
WOOT!

(hey.. ya gotta give me some credit for imagination, eh?)

Looks to me like the brown thingy, which is 7 cm X 6 cm, is the lower lobe of someone's liver.

Maybe the replacement surgery cost $15,000 (but that's pretty cheap for liver transplant).

You don't get wings if your liver is damaged, but you could get a purpole heart if it's done in combat.

I'm guessing it is not a conch.

It's from a US made piece of equipment.

The part of the tailhook that catches the cable on a carrier landing???

Given Murray is a track lizzard, and its US equipment, its a broken expensive M113 thingie. When it broke the APC came to a sudden stop and Murray flew out ot the gunners hatch, over the Ma Duce hence the "Wings." Of course I could be wrong. OFS

Snerk! Nice snark, OFS! I put a fair number of miles on a M113, but I don't recognize that.

Of course, if it wasn't broken... it might be easier to recognize... and I always kept my M2 trained to one side or the other... for just that reason. Sudden stops.

There was no sudden stop, quite the opposite. And I never left my seat.

Boy, I havn't posted in a while, but it sounds like you had a great time. And some great pictures as well. Too bad those LT's were not able to get some more of that stuff back. But I remember trying to get home with just a few things, and the customs MPs were very hard on me and many of my soldiers. Ended up having to leave about half of the stuff back. Of course, when I left, there was no consistancy in customs. Some would allow bayonetts, others would not. Some wouldn't let any Iraqi Military kit out, some could care less. I hope there is more consistancy now... I bet the D20 that our BN captured to take back to Ft. Benning was never sent, even though we did all of the proper paperwork, need to check back on that.

Anyway, thanks for the great post and I'm glad you had a great time.

I've got Jim's excellent translation of the SVD Manual to go with my PSL (the Romanin version of the SVD). I may even have worked with Jim back when I worked for BDM on post in 1982-1983. When I got the book his named seemed very familiar...

No kidding... that LT is VERY baby-faced!

Sounds like you had a great time talking the talk, and even went back to walk the walk.
Very cool!

You better hang on to SWWBO, John. Any lady who encourages you to attend a show like this, AND is good looking, is definitely a keeper....

Jayhawk Guardsmen, huh? Think I'll go cue up "Kansas Wildcats" by J.P. Sousa, Royal Artillery Band, conducted by Keith Brion, Naxos 8.559058. Hey, the disc happens to be in the machine already. *Sigh*! I'm such a band nerd...

"who managed to do what I specifically warned him not to do..."

*rolls eyes*

Lieutenants.

*shakes head*

The building is probably called the Conference Center because O-Clubs are all but dead, with exceptions at places such as Ft Benning, where they're kept on life support by forcing LTs at IOBC to join.

My whole time there, I only went into the club when we had our formals. Now, if they still had strippers at the I-Bar, I might have been there more. Stupid prissy GOs wife...

Not that strippers at an Army club would survive in today's PC genderintegrated Army anyway.

I left the whole history of the Death of the Clubs alone. Too geeky. It wasn't just the strippers, HL. In the early 80's, tired of alcohol-related problems, the clubs were required to raise their liquor prices to meet outside-the-gate prices, and to eliminate any specials.

The dolts-in-charge thought that would actually raise revenue (because they'd still go to the clubs, right?) while decreasing alcohol-realated problems.

Riiiiight. What it did was *kill* the revenue, and the clubs, as everyone went outside the gate to their drinking... because it was cheaper, and that's where the girls went when the clubs quit having those events that drew the local girls to the clubs...

Slot machines helped keep the clubs in Europe alive.

Eccellent post! and so very true.
Cheers
RobC

Rob, you wouldn't be a Latin teacher, by any chance...?

Great post! I flamed out as a teacher for those very expectations. I was a *teacher* left behind by this holistic blather.

I started out as a PoliSci major, and switched to Education. After taking a few classes, I realized the error of my ways and switched to Liberal Arts- Communications/Journalism. The teachers of this world deserve sooooo much more respect and pay!

Of course, that means absolutely nothing in the whole scheme of things because I'm in Finance now, lol.

FWIW, I like what you do, John. I don't comment much because I don't have anything worthwhile to contribute. I just read and learn. That's nice for me.

Yeah, second that emotion, Cassandra. Not having any military experience myself, I just find this stuff interesting and sometimes fun.

In my opinion, other than the Picklehauber, the funkiest looking helmet of the period is the Portuguese Fluted Helmet

Thanx Boss

Yes, what Cassandra and April said. I have to say that I like the helmet though. Nice find. :-)

Yup, militaria are always cool and froody, whether or not they go boom. They're, well, so *earnest*. That helmet's a prime example of that. Anyone who'd preserve the hat, and decorate it both officially and personally, was obviously a very earnest fellow.

Definition of "earnest", Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary, Second Edition:

1. serious and intense; not joking or playful; zealous and sincere; deeply convinced; as, *earnest* in prayer; an *earnest* appeal.

2. intent; fixed. ...

3. serious; important; not trivial....

Cassie:
"I don't comment much because I don't have anything worthwhile to contribute."

Doesn't stop me, why should it stop you?

Oh, a helmet named after our ex-Governor-General? Neat-o!

Cheers

Try to be a bit more earnest, Capt. H. I know that you have it in you.

Okay: two maggots were fighting in dead Earnest ...

Cheers

Ow! I shoulda seen that one coming!

'specially seeing that it's at least a hundred years old.

Owhell, I should know better than to try to cross wits with you.

Though I must say, maggots are often beneficial in debriding wounds in live folks.

There might be a serious scientifico-spiritual object of study, here. If maggots eat dead folks, how do zombies manage to walk around uneaten and uncorrupted for as long as they are reputed to do?

Should we try to find out if zombies are attended by more, or fewer, flies, than other dead folks?

"...how do zombies manage to walk around...uncorrupted for as long as they are reputed to do?"

Well, for one thing, they avoid this blog when certain Denizennes throw a chandelier soir�e...

Waitaminute....
Are you telling me that there are *still* uncorrupted zoomies around here? WHERE? I don't see any!

oh. zombies.

nevermind....

There are obviously no flies on Chief(ret.)Bill.

Nice bar! May I have a gargantuan Margarita, plzz? Only one more week before I de-Borg!

Indeed you may - frozen, or on-the-rocks, w/salt, or sans?

Froze, with salt. Did I mention huge? ;-) Vielen Dank!

Your wish is granted, Madam. There's a rocks, salt one up, as well.

Good thing the Armorer isn't going anywhere this afternoon.

Oh, wait, he's going to use Power Toolz!

Heh. Wonder if the police will follow me to the hospital again...

[The bar] even drew and aghast email from a GFW!

Didn't anyone ever tell you guns and booze don't mix?

It just gets them all wet and then they rust.

I'll take one of those, partner. I'll even pretend not to look at your gun if you mix it just right.

*bellies up to the bar*

Hey bartender! Gimme summa dat too... pretty please? On the rocks, no salt and a lime? Don't make me beg... makes my knees hurt.

*grin*

*wanders in from hours spent blogging her fingers to the bone*

It's friday! I'll take one Cosmopolitan with vodka, please. *smiles sweetly and purrs*

I like mine simple and unadorned. Could I just have a scotch on the rocks, please? I can't promise I won't look at the gun, though.

That Frosty Drink looks fantastic. Though I dunno about the use of Fantastik in it.

SNARK - SNERK - SNORK ;>

*sluuuurp* Aaaah! My outlook on life is MUCH better now. Thanks, O Armorer!

Ladies, the rifle is there for looking and fondling. For access to the gun, you'll have to go through SWWBO!

Oh, that's right--I meant the rifle! I married a Marine, I should have known better!

Um, Boq - Fantastik?

Yes'm Boss. The Fantastik that you dramed on right before Mr. Jos� Cuervo. Then again, its surfactant qualities may be the best tonic to an upset tummy.

Frozen, no salt fer me- make it a double, and hurry! Gotta go power up the sabre saw and cut some new porthole covers (don't ask...)
Later, kids...

Ah! So Fantastik is *not* some slang term for Especial, Cointreau, or Grand Marnier. Whew!

Hey! Yes'm? Not Yessir?

Actually, Sweetheart, though I totally love your margarita's, I took great pains to teach the barboys here at the hotel how to make a proper margarita.

They squeezed fresh oranges and limes to make the mixer part - good young English boy-bartenders! I gave them a nice tip, and now everytime I walk by - which I must do whenever I go out or come in, it's Oh, Mrs. Donovan, how are you today? Or Mrs. Donovan, are you going to come have a margarita tonight? Or Oh, Mrs. Donovan, let me tell you this story.

Hee.

John, I think maybe Boq has already reached his limit, huh? ;)

Hmmmm. Mebbe I shouldn't let you go outta town so much... at least it's *Mrs*... heeheehee!

Hee! Time to cut me off, me liker.

WOW! I never saw the Castle bar before... The Man will be quite jealous when I tell him about it!
Is it OK if I just have a beer... it doesn't look like it has dancing room and that's what mixed drinks always end up doing to me ;)

ALa - ya don't dance on the bar... ya dance where the *pole* is...

But sure, you can have a beer.

HOH- yas, ALa- you come dance where Pole iz!!! Andre haz many zlotneys for luffly blond Yankee wimmens, you bet!
(Tinks) hmmm, she got pistols type guns; mebbe I bess play hard to get...

Can you have one of those ready in about 40 minutes, when I get home? (wouldn't want to drink and drive, would I?) On the rocks, with salt, pretty please?

yesssssssssss

John's putting the poles up!

Grab on ALa.... wheeeeee!

Just lemmee sit over here in a quiet corner with a glass of India Pale Ale, and my screwdrivers and wrenches...

We used to go to Tijuana and we'd order generic Jose Cuervo, the kind that still comes in a rectangular bowling pin-shaped bottle. This was because we discovered they didn't have 1800 in Tijuana. But, you know what? That generic Cuervo was 10 times better than the equivalent bottle in Los Angeles, and almost as good as 1800. And each shot was about 75 cents (this was 10 years ago). And the bottle itself was half what it cost 10 miles away in Chula Vista.

Don't miss Tijuana. We may not be able to party in Havana like they did 50 years ago. But, for a simple train ride from downtown San Diego, its pretty damn fun. And be sure to go downtown. Its a darn good place to have fun.

... and Gunners BLOW, BIG TIME, like hurricane Ophelia!

Take that, you Arty person! I pick my nose at you!

Cheers
JMH

And this after I was nice to you Canuckistanians and posted pics of the Navy responding to Katrina.

Fie!

Tankers still suck!

Long Rod Penetrators!

Cheers
JMH

Feh, John. Ask any target you're trying to penetrate... they prefer width to length.

LRP's are definitely sub-caliber and arrive too quickly.

Ya'll need to uncock your pistols and put them back in their holsters.

the truth is, if you cananot deliver on target everytime for more than thirty minutes, penetrate the target, regardless of types of barriers, and insure less than 3% failure rate, you will not make it in this woman's army.

Might as well send you back to the mess as a baker's mate.

***PapaGulf-17 twitches into coniptions***

What's wrong with talking about artillery and ammunition, Boq? *looking around innocently*

Kat, 30 minutes Heh..not a problem.. and I can GUARANTEE 100% success rate, and then some... and multiple 'targets'.....

*i think the PG-17 just ran into a hole to hide...*

I agree K-MO, a long and sustained FFE Heavy Arty Barrage, is what is requied to fulfill the mision, no matter how reinforced the target may be.

FbL, there's nuthin' wrong about discussing Arty and Ammo. It's just that ol' PapaGulf-17 gets sparking too easily. ;)

Oh and Boss, that Barr&Stroud standing rigidly on that mount, is sure to find the range to any required target.

***BZZZZTZAAAP*** ***SNAP-SNAP***

"Down boy - DOWN"

When we get to ramming the round to seat the projectile and then tossing in the powder, bending over, peering in the breech and saying "Charge 6 White Bag, I see Red!", the PG-17c will consult its glossary and just... *twitch*.

did i just hear the sound of an angel's wings getting clipped? LOL
you folks are just...just...BAD!

no, alix, we are very, very, VERY good.....

And humble, too! ROFL

hehe.

*still here, quietly stirring the fire*

Ooop.

*brushes errant ember from 27" zipper*

*fans self*

Long Rod Penetrators; width; deliver on target; multiple 'targets'; standing rigidly; 27" zipper....

must...resist...POLE DANCING....

oh, SO hard to resist!

Easy there MAWK. At this pace PapaGulf-17 MOD C will burn out a fuze before sundown. We do not want him to be out of commission for the rest of the week-end.

Weekend... Do I hear the stirrings of a (careful now!) Castle Party?! Nahhh.... surely not. :)

Acquiring the target requires extensive knowledge concerning positioning of the weapon and using the range finding equipment. You should know how to work the elevation screw in case of a system failure requiring manual override.

Before the inroduction of electronic equipment and contained ammunition, the gun captain would select appropriate elevation using an elevation screw. He would eye the target and, using calculations learned from long years of school and practice, adjust the proper angle of the gun. He would use a number of types of ammunition with the most effective being the explosive ball. Though, the ball and chain ammunition could cause extensive damage to the enemy's masts.

Keeping the powder dry in wet conditions was extremely difficult. The balls would be lit using a specifically measured fuse. Once the balls were seated and the gun was raised to the proper elevation, another fuse would be lit causing the large bore weapon to eject it's ammunition.

A gunner's mate would be standing by to swab the gun whenever it became overheated.

Speaking of mine warnings... here's a souvenior I brought back from my deployment to the Zone in the late 70s.
Hope nobody wandered into the field after I took the sign... heh

Yep, counterfeit assignations.

Ah, Boqui? That's Fuse with an Ess? The electrical kind, not the kind that sputters and makes yummy smoke and then causes something to go boom?

Pedantic, c'est Moi! Heinrichs ain't in it!

(He was normal enough that the docs let him join up. Well, he may have memorized the answers to the psychological tests...)

Ah - I stand corrected JTG

Scruffy The Scruple sez: DID SOME ONE SAY PARTAY!!!.

Boq, that is one ugly kitty...
Looks like she could use a maragarita!
[kick] [kick] [kick] Oh... turns on gas valve
kick... sput pop sput varoomm............
...and the Harley powered Margarita-Matic purrs into life......

Hi, Neffi! *waves*

Got any Cosmopolitans around?

*snuggles down in the couch*

Damn..kat knows balls as much as she does oranges.....

oh...sorry..CANNON balls... just wanted to clarify that...

Not in the mood to Par-Tay, m'self, aged Daddy being in h'ptal and maybe leaving planet sometime soon, but will look in from time to time, for distraction, to keep from going completely batso.

Dang! That's a damper, ain't it! No, really, y'all have a good time, I'll stop by now and then, just to keep from getting too weird.

Whoops! Already too late for that.

cannon balls, oranges...you're all a buncha coconuts! :oD

I'll be spending today in writing salacious proposals to the government in an effort to entice them to have their way with me... for money.

We know what I am... we're just negotiating on price.

Since the original theme of this was guns, thought I'd give you an update. Remember back in March, I went to the range and earned the German Schutzenschnur? Well, I finally got it in the mail yesterday, and they apparently awarded me the Gold medal. I thought they had said Silver at the range, but then again they were speaking German. So I earned the Gold, AND I get to wear it...(neener, neener...)

Since the original theme of this was guns, thought I'd give you an update. Remember back in March, I went to the range and earned the German Schutzenschnur? Well, I finally got it in the mail yesterday, and they apparently awarded me the Gold medal. I thought they had said Silver at the range, but then again they were speaking German. So I earned the Gold, AND I get to wear it...(neener, neener...)

Heh. Well, okay, we have the same one, you get to wear it... and I think I'll check my paycheck stub...

Plllppppttt!

Why not set up a weekly series, alternating accounts between the current and past conflicts?
Free Market Fairy Tales does this.

Cheers
JMH

You know, I would be willing to let our 'tanker desk' go for as low as $500.00. (hee hee)
Just contact me at my blog - you will have to come and pick the darn thing antique desk up from our house, though.

Thanks so much, John, I really appreciate your mentions of my "Weekly Check". You're one of the few that still do. And yes! Robert Langham's (Blackfork6) calendar photos are things of beauties; I'm lucky he offered them to me to post.

--Jeff

Heh. Gee, Beth, I get the impression you are *not* impressed with my frugality...

I'm reading and laughing because I'm sitting in one of those swivel chairs right now! Everybody asks why I don't get a new one, but I ensist on sitting on a 'real' Army chair when I do Army work. I guess if civilians have accepted $22m for an airplane & $600 for a hammer, $1200 for a dumpy chair is not unreasonable...

LOL!! In the civilian world, these are known as "Teacher Desks" and "Teacher Chairs."

"Everything old is new again..."

I have an old from the forties oak desk with the Indiana Oak logo in the middle drawer. That desk is where we stash the desk top PC, the bills and
I wouldn't part with it at all. It is the best desk we have ever had.

I had one of those desk in college...got it for $10, just like you, only mine came from the Lawrence Livermore Lab's version of DRMO. I'll bet you can still get them there, too.

And some offices (like, say, the one I just vacated) still have them.

Thanks CW4 ^^

Thanks, Bill. I grew up in Westmoreland County - and during the Vietnam War, I assumed that the name was because of Gen. Westmoreland ... which of course wasn't true. Not being the history type, I've never run down the actual connection (if any) between the source of the county name and the General.

The prompt delivery of 9.41 pounds of DU is inorder. these two skivvie stains deserve to be mounted on a saub target lifter and be used as thermal pannels on the long range mover on Tank Table VIII

Heh.

Went over there and left , I'm afraid, a rather hot-tempered and hastily-thought comment. I was so hasty that I misspelled the name of The Castle. Please forgive me, Sir.

That is just plain evil - and while I am not sure what specific ordinance or technology MudPuppy1975 is describing, I am wholly in favor of delivering it in this case. Time to go leave a nastygram of my own...

Barb

What I believe he is refering to is what's called a sabot round from a tank. It does wonders at defeating enemy armor and turning the contents of enemy tanks & armored vehicles into explosions & pink mist.

Depleted Uranium sabot... but too quick for those scumbuckets. For them, I'd go 'medieval'... Spanish Inquisition* style.
*wait for it...

Um, Barb, I think that the mudpuppy fellow, in the second part of his message, may have been thinking about using the culprits as targets to shoot at, in some kind of automated shooting-at-targets system that the Army, or somebody, has.

Neffi: I did mention the strappado. I didn't get as far as to mention hanging, drawing, and quartering. Traditional English punishments for traitors were much harsher than anything those friars in Spain ever thought of.

Hey, we're the people who bred Pit Bulls, and laughed and drank while watching bear baiting. I may be mostly Celtic m'self, but I do have a streak of cold-blooded Saxon nastiness in the back of my head, somewhere. Compliance with my wishes will ensure that I don't have to rouse it out, and let it flow.

Just Kiddin' about my Bad Saxon Traits! (Well, mostly)

Tank Table VIII (Fort Hood or Graf?) = A place where tanks shoot real bullets at stuff.

Saub target lifter = device used to raise and lower targets on a target range (see above), I believe

DU = Depleted Uranium; a penetrator rod wrapped in plastic and stuck inside a big shell, (kind of like putting a .22 inside a .357 sheel). These are spent fuel rods, but still radioactive, safe until the paint is worn off--a few Italians died of radiation poisoning a few years ago after picking up and keeping these rods.

Skivvie stains = brown streaks on the underwear

Thermal pannels on the long range mover = 3-5 Klicks out, a moving target with a heat source used by the tanks to aim at (they can target heat signatures now too).

Basically, nail the bad guys to the target and shoot at them in the dark.

But Neffi's right. Way too quick, they'd be dead before they heard the shot. Velly, velly fast moving bullet...

A better punishment would be to take the bad guys to 29 Palms (or maybe Fallujah) and give them to the Marines.

~SangerM

Barb - this will help, even though it will cause some denizens to twitter...

Long Rod Penetrator. Open link in a new window for best viewing.

Oooh - I LIKE it, very kewl ;-)
Stimulating name, too - LOL!

Actually, Tank Table VIII (and it's brother, Bradley Table VIII) only use semi-real bullets-training rounds instead of service rounds. With the HEAT/HE rounds, non-explosive rounds are used (less expensive, no duds downrange). With the sabot rounds (yes, Bradleys have them too), it's a matter of Surface Danger Zone-the area downrange where a stray round could, in theory, land. For service sabot Bradley rounds, I know, the SDZ was a whopping 14 km. I'd imagine with service tank rounds it's even bigger. Training rounds reduce that to something more manageable, like around 4-5 km for the Brads.

Still, I wouldn't want to get hit by one of the buggers.

I say put 'em downrange on a Vulcan range, and slowly chew off their extremities.

No, we don't need to be so elaborate...

Put these yobbos to good use..

Send them to Iraq... after a quickie mine clearing course ;-) On the understanding that they will be shot out of hand if anyone is blown up in areas they had supposedly cleared.

If they survive, they will at least learn respect for their betters.

ROFLMAO - That's classic, Bill!

Thanks for the chuckles, Bill. Thine locuaciously composed Elizabethan Vulgus, makeths the Bard proud.

Boq - whoyathink taught the Bard to write like that?

Beth - Heh. Obviously someone who flunked their ENG104 - Freshman English Comp course at school.

I hear it's Crawfish season down in the bayou; enjoy. Last month I went down there and stayed in a hotel at St. Joseph St by the Convention Center. Such a pity that being only two blocks from the D-Day Museum, I couldn't even take a peek inside. Went there on urgent family matters in Metairie.

Oh and BTW - next time you are in Suburban MD. Let me know. At least I could spare you from such fine Scottish Cuisine.

OMG, LMAO...Bill, I loveeee, loveeee, your sense of humor!