Comments for Something Seems to be Wrong with our Bloody Awards System

Something Seems to be Wrong with our Bloody Awards System

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 07:56:20 -0600

As long time readers know, I have ranted in this space before about "The Medal of Posthumous Honor" and how, upon reading citations (risky, as they are a pale excerpt of the recommendations) for Distinguished Service Crosses with some holders of the Medal of Honor that I know - and we were all wondering what the heck it took with earn a Medal these days.Comes now Bennett Dickson, combat veteran, retired Infantry Colonel, to ruminate on the subject - this time with some numbers.At the Naval Battle of Jutland in 1916, the British Fleet experienced some unexpected setbacks in the...

Comment from lvncenturion on 2010-03-23

Tue, 23 Mar 2010 18:31:03 -0600

I was not a witness, but its too good a story not to be true. Wesley K. was serving as a Captain on the Division staff, imparting his vast knowledge and intellect to the conduct of the war. He was quite aware that a CIB and some sort of valor award was a requirment for his cleaver plan for advancement, so he arranged a transfer to a battalion of infantry. Within the month, he found himself engaged in a firefight sufficient to garner both a CIB and a Silver Star. He beat a hasty retreat back to the division staff and went on to save the entire Western World.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2010-03-23

Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:04:49 -0600

E7. Sisson was the PAC Supervisor when I was the Adj.

Comment from fdcol63 on 2010-03-23

Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:01:16 -0600

No, I was thinking of Wesley Clark. But I seem to remember an E-5 or E-6 named Sisson at Pinder.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2010-03-23

Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:02:49 -0600

Frank - are you dissing my PAC? The estimable Sergeant First Class Sisson?

Comment from fdcol63 on 2010-03-23

Tue, 23 Mar 2010 14:50:58 -0600

" .. On the flip side, I had -- and have -- more friends than the people who kept "losing" my promotion packets, but got *themselves* promoted. .."

Another veiled reference to The Prince of Darkness. LOL

Comment from htom on 2010-03-23

Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:57:01 -0600

So we have a flag rank that's primarily Courtney Massengales? This is not not good, this is bad.

Comment from BillT on 2010-03-23

Tue, 23 Mar 2010 03:37:37 -0600

As a city police dispatcher, I once noticed how few of us ever got an "Outstanding" rating on our evaluations and asked one of our shift supervisors about this.

My first OER in Vietnam was a max. Senior rater concurred.

It got kicked back from Group HQ with the notation that they "didn't leave me any room for improvement"...

My twelve years of OERs as a CW4 all recommended either "Promote Ahead Of Contemporaries" or "Promote Immediately" -- I retired a CW4.

On the flip side, I had -- and have -- more friends than the people who kept "losing" my promotion packets, but got *themselves* promoted.

*grinnnn*

I do b'lieve that I got the best out of that deal...

Comment from Grimmy on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 22:52:47 -0600

Ivncenturion:

Since the US Army was hit nearly as badly as the USN and USAF during the Clinton "gender norming", feminizing and sensitivity training era, I'd suspect it's deliberate.

Having hero soldiers stands too far outside the acceptable UN Peacekeeping format to be tollerable.

Comment from lvncenturion on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:14:36 -0600

First, full disclosure. I am the author of this piece.

Bureaucrats, REMF's, Fobbits, indifferent field commanders are not the problem, in my view. At best, they are a symptom. If the leadership of the Army and DoD wanted to quickly recognize combat heroism at a level consistent with historical experience, I am certain that it would be so. This issue points directly to the senior leadership of the Army, either through indifference or deliberate intent. They are the problem.

Comment from jsallison on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 19:43:48 -0600

I point the finger at DOPMA/EPMS in all it's manifestations. Also the shellacking the army took post Grenada when more awards were awarded than soldiers taking part in the operation. I also personally know of one major who stated that there would be no awards awarded for any activities as part of his unit in desert storm as your mere presence in the combat zone was sufficient reward for career progression *spit* purposes (you're going to get a combat zone seer, what more is needed?). And the armor school commander post desert storm stated on record that combat time and awards would not be considered a determinant in future passing out of the spoils of the total officer concept. I retired shortly after and good riddance to the box-checking sob's.

Comment from htom on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 18:55:37 -0600

There's definately something wrong, and it's not a lack of heroism of those on the front line. I have guesses as to what the problem is -- too many staff pukes with Walter Mitty daydreams, thinking that they can do what others did -- and can think of no good way to solve the problem. Maybe restricting staff to receiving at most one medal for each hundred that they approve as written. and one for a thousand that they approve that's downgraded?

Comment from Justthisguy on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 18:13:42 -0600

Oh, on the title of this post: I see that I still have a window open for the HMS Hood Association web site. Yep, battle cruisers, wrongly used. It'll make yer eyes wet to read the autobiography of Ted Briggs, the last survivor, parts of which are posted there. He tells of escaping from the compass platform just in time, and looking back to see Admiral Holland still seated, obviously too depressed and disappointed to try and save himself.

As a band nerd, I feel a special ouchy about that battle. According to the web site,, a significant plurality of the Royal Marine bandsmen died at their stations as computer operators at the Central Transmitting Station. Judging by the photos of the wreck, they're still in there.

Comment from Justthisguy on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:55:09 -0600

Augetter, that reflects on what I think I was trying to say above, which is sorta that giving awards for valor is inherently unjust. What about the guy who's all by himself and performs heroically, and nobody else sees it happen? Or, as per your account, a well-witnessed heroic deed which goes un-acknowleged?

Comment from Augetter on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:47:20 -0600

Just an biased observation from an RVN vet circa 65, It seemed to be a system where field grade officers were awarded a lot of fruit salad, company grade officers got good OERs and EMs got an attaboy. One SP4 in my sig company went up a pole to retreive a wounded buddy under fire and was put in for the Bronze Star, which was downgraded to something else at Bn and was then denied at Div. I think the company clerk snuck a letter of commendation into his file with a forged signature. The whole company wasn't very happy campers after that.

Comment from Justthisguy on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:50:10 -0600

There's a really excellent painting of Pitsenbarger's actions that day. I have a copy of it saved to my hard drive. A Kaman helicopter was involved, too, which just makes it even more kewel. Wooden rotors and men of steel!

Comment from Oldloadr on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:56:46 -0600

John - I knew you would. I was just making it easy for you... ;)

Comment from Justthisguy on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:34:51 -0600

Up until the Crimean War and the War Between the States, there were basically no medals for valor in English-speaking forces. It was assumed that the courage of a lion was the birthright of every Briton, and twice as much so for Americans.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:11:31 -0600

Oldloadr - hold that thought. We'll get to Pitzenbarger... on 11 April.

Comment from Oldloadr on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:07:57 -0600

BTW John, you can go to the link above on 11 April and get the MOH citation for A1C Pitzenbarger...

Comment from Oldloadr on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:24:18 -0600

A couple of years ago, I was sitting in the chow hall dining facility at Camp Victory and I overheard 2 Army field graders discussing how Patton's 3rd Army had more soldiers than today's entire US Army, yet he had only one subordinate general officer on his staff. To me, this means that there are a lot of general officers in the Army today making career changing decisions (about soldiers they have never met) who may have a minimum (if any) of combat experience. - Just my 2 cents worth from the resident enlisted zoomie

On another note: in Viet Nam, the USAF had an unwritten rule that only an air crew member could be considered for the MOH. Enter A1C Bill Pitzenbarger. The article linked is a little vague. It says he was awarded the MOH and the AF Cross. Actually, he was awarded the AF Cross at the time, and after a 30 year campaign by his family and comrades, it was finally upgraded to the MOH. Although, he wasn't officially an aircrew member, his office was the back of a rescue helicopter. Point is, generals can get funny ideas in their heads up there in the rarified air of the ivory tower and I think today's Army generals are suffering from hypoxia.

Comment from fdcol63 on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:28:06 -0600

As a city police dispatcher, I once noticed how few of us ever got an "Outstanding" rating on our evaluations and asked one of our shift supervisors about this.

In a rare moment of candor (probably because it was 4 AM on a slow Thursday morning), he admitted that whenever they marked an item as "Outstanding" or even "Exceeds Expectations", the supervisors had to write a paragraph of narrative to support the grade. So, the easier thing for them to do was mark "Average" or "Meets Expectations".

Besides the "dead soldiers can't embarrass in the future" aspect of posthumous awards, I wonder if this is also a factor here, and that certain commanders and NCOs are simply taking the "lazy way" out by not recommending awards that will generate intensive investigations and effort on their part?

Comment from Chuck Simmins on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:22:14 -0600

I also wonder if Paul Smith would have been awarded the MoH if it came up today. He was a strict disciplinarian and his troops grumbled. Too controversial.

Comment from Marine6 on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:16:30 -0600

It is impossible to come to any other conclusion than that our system is badly flawed and that the victims are the warriors who carry the fight.

Awards for valor are way down. There are a multitude of documented cases where recommendations have made their way up the chain of command only to be downgraded by nameless staff wienies who have never been in combat.

But I note that officers still get a chest full of colorful ribbons as long as they don't get the clap, or get caught shagging a subordinate. Napoleon is often quoted on the efficacy of bits of ribbon to encourage soldiers to fight. We seem to forget that soldiers fight, staff wienies obfuscate. Which should be encouraged, and which merely tolerated?

Comment from BillT on 2010-03-22

Mon, 22 Mar 2010 08:40:52 -0600

Meanwhile, back in the rear, the Meritorious Service Medal is the new Army Achievement Medal...