Comments for Twitter... and the followers thereon

Twitter... and the followers thereon

Mon, 16 Nov 2009 07:17:06 -0600

...I just got the note that I'm being followed by US Army Redstone. Hi guys! [waves vigorously] While I'm flattered, I can't help but wonder if it isn't just an interest in feeding a milblog, but also a concern about how milblogs are reacting to CJ's troubles. That's the state of play in the milblog world these days. There's some... tension here and there.

Comment from Grimmy on 2009-11-18

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:22:55 -0600

Argent:
I don't know how other branches do it, or even how it's done these days after all the changes since things went hostile, but...

Back in the day, in The Corps the boss hog of an intel shop at regiment or above was, actually, simply a figure head and briefing boy. All the work was done by enlisted personnel.

At battalion level, the IntelO had to be useful and actually intelligent since the battalion level was the primary sorter gatherer of current battlefield tactical info.

Above battalion was usually just a job of collating reports, posting stickies to a map and pretending to be important while giving briefs to other officer types.

Comment from BillT on 2009-11-18

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:18:02 -0600

...but MI officers as commanders... not so much. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions to that rule -

I've run across exactly two Army intel commanders who fit that exception, but as an anecdotal observation, the ones in the Air Force seem to take better care of their troops.

Plus they're quicker to *share* what they know with those of us who need to know what they've found out...

Comment from Argent on 2009-11-17

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:37:10 -0600

So it's partly fear.

Grimmy: I don't know how important MI actually is but I certianly would not feel enthused about having the worst providing information which influences decisions on how best to win and not get my guys killed.

Comment from Grimmy on 2009-11-17

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:07:37 -0600

John of Argghhh!:

I suspect it's not only the MI culture at play. An example from "back in the day".

The G2 boss for 2MarDiv in the early 80's was a Major. A former arty man. He was no longer an arty man because of his decision to save on transport space by loading up his ammo (8" arty rounds) on the trucks with the fuses in the fuse-wells.

Intel is often a place to hide dangerously incompetent officers. It's workable, because officers have squat all to do in intel, other than give the briefings to senior command that are produced by the enlisted.

That's how it tended to work in The Corps. No clue on the Army though.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-11-17

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:24:36 -0600

Well, Argent, I was trying to answer your question, with an eye to others who also read but stay silent. There is a very strong element of CYA and risk-aversion in MI culture, which has a good basis in intel terms, but which makes for weak commanders.

There are always exceptions, of course, but I suspect you'll find many combat arms types agree with me.

Comment from AFSister on 2009-11-17

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:07:04 -0600

From what I've read about CJ's situation... the whole thing blows big donkeys.

He received NO support from his senior NCO. He received NO support from command.

My conclusion? He's in a donkeybutt command, more concerned with kissing other donkeybutts and covering their own, than they are concerned about their Soldiers. Sad. No... not sad- it's tragic.

And if you take the time to watch the videos, you'll see that at no time was CJ out of line with his actions or words. The whole thing is just surreal.

Comment from Argent on 2009-11-17

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:05:39 -0600

Yes John even I know what MI means. I'm just wondering at the source of the problem. I like to do that you know. It's silly of course. To know the source is to solve it, but I am of course never going to be in a position to action a solution it even if I wanted to.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-11-17

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:56:29 -0600

Aaron - I'm referring specifically to Military Intelligence units, and I think that the MI culture plays a very strong role here.

Comment from Argent on 2009-11-17

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:28:22 -0600

Perhaps the position calls out to those that you deem unimpressive. Or pehaps gaining the position brings about the behaviour. Is it the person or results that are unimpressive?

It seems to me the higher command levels and the boots on the ground understand the importance, Are the middle layers mired in policy, hubris or fear for themselves?

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-11-17

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 06:30:59 -0600

What Bill said, compounded with the fact that the chain of command involved was (at least initially) an MI chain of command.

I have decades of experience of being unimpressed with MI commanders. I've met many fine MI soldiers and officers, as technicians, but MI officers as commanders... not so much.

I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions to that rule - I'm just speaking from my personal interactions with Intel units outside the narrow specs of their fields of expertise.

Comment from Argent on 2009-11-17

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:02:52 -0600

So basically a case of the cascading Ihdjits. It's the law of attraction you know.

None of ours are permitted to blog or talk about it . Most of this country don't know and don't care what they are doing. One hears in the news a few dead and that's it really.

Comment from BillT on 2009-11-17

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:31:42 -0600

...a concern about how milblogs are reacting to CJ's troubles.

First, the IG's office has one job, and one job only -- to keep the Commander from getting his butt in a sling. Period. It has no other function.

The problem arose when one dumbsh*t who can't be bothered to read a disclaimer took offense at a *personal* opinion CJ expounded upon and, lacking even the courage God gave a field mouse, lodged a complaint with the IG -- and the legality of someone unconnected with the Army lodging an IG complaint about a non-military subject is pretty damned shaky.

The problem was compounded when another dumbsh*t in the IG's office leaped to the conclusion that the entire Army was going to get a black eye because of the first dumbsh*t's complaint, which had absolutely nothing to do with the Army, and instigated an investigation. The problem has escalated to this point because the remaining dumbsh*ts in the IG's office now appear to believe that they actually work for NSA, and that the complaint against CJ is a report of a threat to our national security.

And if anyone reading this happens to work in that particular IG office and takes offense at anything I have said -- tough cookies.

Comment from Lamigra on 2009-11-16

Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:57:45 -0600

Maybe I'm dense....I have listened to....well, not hour upon hour, but several long minutes of discussion, and I don't know what the problem is.

Comment from Grumpy on 2009-11-16

Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:53:45 -0600

"Snerk Warning!" You write, "....I just got the note that I am being followed by US Army Redstone." Last I heard, Redstone was an arsenal. With what were they following you? OK, now I get it, You write, "Hi guys! [waves vigorously]." I hope they get it.

Very seriously, about the situation with CJ, I wish it weren't so, but it is the fact. I don't have the right answers, mainly because I believe I don't have the right questions. Family is something sacred. This is a surgical operation, for the right person having all of the facts. This person is not me, he is in my thoughts and prayers.

V/R Grumpy

Comment from Grimmy on 2009-11-16

Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:55:50 -0600

Bureaucracies are always a cumbersome thing.
Bureaucracies are nearly always dominated by "anit-boat rocker" mentalities.

Like it or not, any large organization of humans is going to be a bureaucracy. The US military aint exempt from that reality.

Throwing CJ under the bus was a dumb### thing to do, but it was what can be expected from a bureaucracy.