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        <title>Comments for Warrior versus Soldier - do the words matter?</title>
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            <title>Warrior versus Soldier - do the words matter?</title>
            <description><![CDATA[Before I succumbed to the propagandizing coming out of the Army PA folks *and* the senior leadership, I was much more careful myself in the use of the terms &quot;warrior&quot; versus &quot;soldier.&quot;&nbsp; The warrior can be admired for his personal prowess, but oft-times true warrior societies aren't really very good militarys, and usually get their butts handed to them when they run into a disciplined group of soldiers, even when armed similarly. 

There are always exceptions, of course.&nbsp; One can juxtapose the Wagon Box Fight against Little Big Horn, for example.&nbsp; But in the end, who reigned supreme?&nbsp; Ask the warriors of the Mahdi, square-breakers or no.

It kind of reaches it's ultimate expression in an occasional feature that is put out by Army Public Affairs - one which I like, mind you, though I've always thought the title of it was contrived.

The Army &quot;Warrior-Soldier&quot; of the Week...

Comes now a thoughtful guest editorial on the subject, by a serving soldier, Major M. Orris, published here with his permission (you may have already run across it&nbsp; - it's been a rash in service email):]]></description>
            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html</link>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:38:06 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Grumpy on 2009-09-04</title>
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                <![CDATA[@Jeremy, you write, &quot;I started my Military Career as a Weekend Warrior. Back then, warrior was an insult.&quot; Who changed it, some old phart like me or did you?<br />
<br />
Date: 11 Sep 2001, 0830 hrs, I was having breakfast with friends at a local McDonalds, a customer comes in and says a plane hit the World Trade Center. Somebody said hopefully, &quot;This was one of those little jobbers. The first one says, &quot;No, this was a big one!&quot; All the guys were members of the Air National Guard. The base was a Cold War Hot Base. It was allowed to chill off by BRAC. It was equal distances to both The Pentagon and New York City. &nbsp;Everybody knew this was going to be a 24/7 all hellsapoppin time. The men looked at their wives, inhaled their food, then left in two vans for the base. Here's the main point, it wasn't just the military, it was also 'first responders' , 'operating engineers', 'communications', 'FAA Air Traffic Control' and the many 'what if issues' involved. All of these people were getting ready to be activated to meet the needs. Therefore, they were not casting aside their everyday tools.<br />]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-93022</link>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 22:07:20 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from jeremy on 2009-09-04</title>
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                <![CDATA[I started my Military carreer as a Weekend Warrior. Back then warrio was an insult. One year we trained in Colorado with the fine soldiers of Ft Carson. one evening we sat arround a camp fire, and our Plt Ldr began comparing notes with his RA counterpart. This was done for hte education of hte Active PSG who hated&nbsp;the guard. Seems both were OCS grads with a comparable ammount of time on active duty, both having been SSGs with about seven years. I then proceeded down the ranks on their side then back on our side. For the record, we had two platoons, the host company, one and this took place in 1980. Our weapons PSG was a veteran of Korea, and had seven or so years active, twenty six total. Our infantry PSG was a WW2 vet as well as a Korea vet, eleven or so active and over thirty total. The RA guy had seven total and was still a SSG. Among our group, there were ony two of us with out active time. nearly half were Vietnam vets, several had been comissioned officers including one Major. <br />
Weekend Warrior? We were soldiers, first last and always. Want to see a weekend warrior?&nbsp;Look at the nearest Army base. Thes guys spend five days training in the mud, muck and mier then go to town and attempt to capture (the heart) of every female be she a dance hall girl prostitute or student.<br />
To me the idea of a warrior has always been a fellow who casts aside his hammer, or shovel or what ever tool he makes his living with and sets himself to defend home, family friends and honor from some imposing villian, and when the battle is over, he returns his rifle to the hooks above the door and resumes his life confident in that he saved the day and can do it again.<br />
So my question to you is, will you abandon it all for the sake of the call? Or will the call fall on deaf ears and no one fight tyranny.]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-93017</link>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 19:57:30 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Grumpy on 2009-09-04</title>
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                <![CDATA[&nbsp;@Cortillaen and @Verbich, first I predate &quot;Gadfly&quot;, it appears he is accurate from his post or point of view. There was too much to be seen by any one person. This is not a textbook discussion. This is about terms used in their specialized context of time and culture. Now, The Armorer and MAJ Orris appear to be talking from the American perspective. Now it comes time for you to serve, it's an open field, where do you serve? Remember one thing, there was a time, when men had no choices.]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-93010</link>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:56:12 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Cortillaen on 2009-09-04</title>
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                <![CDATA[<p>Verbich, go anywhere, not just the straw-man &quot;dictionaries that offer overly broad understanings of the concept&quot; you conjure up, and look at &quot;bushi&quot; and, in particular (since it is more in the public consciousness), &quot;bushido&quot;.&nbsp; How are they translated?&nbsp; &quot;Warrior&quot; and &quot;way of the warrior&quot;, respectively, are among the most common translations.&nbsp; Once you can admit that &quot;warrior&quot; is one of, if not <em>the</em>, most common translations for &quot;bushi&quot;, you handily make the rest of my point for me.&nbsp; As you say, bushi refers to samurai and kept troops, feudal Japan's rough equivalents of officers and soldiers, respectively.&nbsp; It does not refer to the unlawful bandits and ronin.&nbsp; Contrary to your second straw-man, I never argued that &quot;bushi&quot; was a catch-all for fighting men of any type, and your insistence on making absolutely clear that &quot;bushi&quot; were most certainly disciplined members of a standing army is to my position's benefit unless you can demonstrate that &quot;bushi&quot; is <em>not</em> commonly translated as &quot;warrior&quot;.<br />
<br />
Here's&nbsp;a challenge:&nbsp; Go to your preferred search engine and search for &quot;bushi&quot;&nbsp;and &quot;bushido&quot;.&nbsp; The former is most often found as part of a name, as of a school of&nbsp;martial arts or organization,&nbsp;but those instances with translations will still work.&nbsp; How often are the words translated as &quot;warrior&quot; and &quot;way/path of the warrior&quot;, respectively?&nbsp; In my cursory examination of Google, Bing, and Dogpile, the rare cases in which &quot;warrior&quot; was not used almost exclusively used the non-translation &quot;samurai&quot; instead.&nbsp; This indicates that popular usage of &quot;warrior&quot; does not exclude the level of externally-enforced discipline associated with the strict life of a samurai.<br />
<br />
As I've said, I don't argue that &quot;warrior&quot; <em>can't</em> be used as Major Orris and others are doing.&nbsp; I only argue that they are taking an exceptionally narrow view of the word,&nbsp;ignoring the popular usage that, when taken as the intended meaning, makes their primary concern moot.&nbsp; Concern that &quot;warrior&quot; is being elevated to a position above &quot;soldier&quot; is still valid, and, though I disagree that&nbsp;such is the case&nbsp;(as I outlined&nbsp;previously), I'm not in a position to argue that issue beyond the realm of opinion.&nbsp; On that front, I think Gadfly does an excellent job and has the experience to support his position.</p>]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92998</link>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 14:22:12 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Grumpy on 2009-09-04</title>
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                <![CDATA[@MAJ Orris, &quot;This has become a monster eh?&quot; No, this debate, in one way or another, has been in the making for a long time. This was a healthy event showing some of the vast scope and experience of this crowd. No, I don't believe everything I have read, but they're good people.<br />
<br />
&quot;Before some folks get their panties (briefs) bundled too tight....&quot; Sorry, Sir, too late, well, something good may come from it. If some things get broke it will most definitely open their eyes to a much broader vision of this whole situation.<br />
<br />
*Many thanks, &nbsp;V/R Grumpy*<br />]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92996</link>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 14:14:46 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Mikey NTH on 2009-09-04</title>
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                <![CDATA[<em>John of Argghhh! on September 4, 2009 8:13 AM :<br />
</em><br />
I have never served, though I am in the Coast Guard Auxiliary.<br />
Just to be clear about that.<br />
My perspective comes from reading military history.&nbsp; And my brother.<br />
<br />
(I have put this up at ColdFury, but I have never figured out how to do the trackback thing.)]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92994</link>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 14:08:43 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from The Verbich on 2009-09-04</title>
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                <![CDATA[&quot;I've offered the issue of &quot;bushi&quot;, a term including those so strictly following your &quot;external discipline&quot; that they would disembowel themselves for certain offenses, being translated as both &quot;warrior&quot; and &quot;soldier&quot;.&quot; <br />
<br />
Except that the word 'bushi' only&nbsp;translates as&nbsp;that in dictionaries that offer&nbsp;overly broad&nbsp;understanings of the concept behind 'bushi' and other&nbsp;technical verbage.&nbsp;<br />
<br />
The word bushi has been used as a synonym for samurai and as a word for loyal house troops who were not peasants(ashigaru) and were not nobles(samurai). <br />
<br />
The ideograms for bushi literally translates as 'war' and 'man'.&nbsp; The ideogram, or kanji, for samurai translates literally as 'to serve'.&nbsp; <br />
<br />
It does not mean what you think it means, as the word is not a catchall for any type of fighting man in Nihongo, and therefor the whole argument is invalid.&nbsp; You have not shown that a 'warrior' has external discipline enforced on him because bushi means either 'samurai' or 'man-at-arms', as the closest European analog.&nbsp; Neither of which were mere warriors but trained&nbsp;troops in a standing, professional army.&nbsp; &nbsp;]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92988</link>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 12:26:28 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Lindy Kyzer on 2009-09-04</title>
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                <![CDATA[Great discussion and great debate! I'm forever impressed by the intellect and historical perspective of our U.S. Military - in this discussion and debate no less. The Warrior-Soldier of the Week is a feature that has existed in the Army for a long time, as a part of a weekly briefing to our Army's senior leadership. Only recently have we begun sending out a similar product to our blogger's roundtable list. I won't argue semantics - there are too many smart people on this thread with much more invested into the words &quot;Soldier&quot; and &quot;Warrior&quot; than I will pretend to be privileged to, but I think it's a worthwhile debate. The only point I will disagree on Orris' assertion that the Army is keen to replace the term Soldier with Warrior. I think in this time of persistent conflict we see the need to highlight the warrior in our Soldiers - not highlight the warrior at the exclusion of the Soldier. This blog has been a key spot for recognizing the valor of our Soldiers - unfortunately, there are too few places where we see that same recognition take place. The Warrior Soldier of the Week is simply one venue for recognizing our Soldiers herosim and valor. I do think that the Soldiers chosen as Warrior-Soldier of the Week are just that - warriors, and Soldiers. I also think they're Brave, Heroic, Amazing, Awe-Inspring, Jaw-Dropping, Kick Butt Soldiers - but that's too long to fit in the headline.<br />
<br />
Thanks for this debate - great post, as usual, John. If you'd like to subscribe to the Army's Warrior Soldier of the Week e-mail, send me a message at <a href="mailto:lindy.kyzer@us.army.mil" rel="nofollow">lindy.kyzer@us.army.mil</a>.]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92979</link>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 10:53:35 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-09-04</title>
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                <![CDATA[<em>what I was getting at when I first said that everyone in the Army is a warrior, and a soldier, no matter what their job is.<br />
<br />
</em>Heh.&nbsp; That's part of the disconnect, of which there are two, really.&nbsp; <br />
<br />
First is -&nbsp;One group&nbsp;doesn't think the warrior-traits as&nbsp;they understand them are properly applied to, or even desireable, traits in a soldier.<br />
<br />
Second is the one you aver, yet isn't true, and is why the Leadership went with the terminology - i.e., everybody *isn't* a warrior, and we're trying to inspire them to be one.<br />
<br />
In a sense, both groups here have the same general ending point - but disagree strongly on the path to reach it.]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92969</link>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:23:21 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from AFSister on 2009-09-04</title>
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                <![CDATA[Thank you, gadfly, not only for providing the background, but for also saying what I am feeling much more eloquently than I did.<br />
Your WO speech is EXACTLY what I was getting at when I first said that everyone in the Army is a warrior, and a soldier, no matter what their job is.&nbsp; You just said it much better than I.]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92966</link>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:27:44 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-09-04</title>
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                <![CDATA[Ah, Major Orris, this has been a good one.&nbsp; Minimal snark, pretty good discussion, and an interesting dichotomy in outlook.<br />
<br />
Gadfly gives a good rundown.&nbsp; Having lived through that era, I'll have to ponder it from his perspective.<br />
<br />
We're a self-selected group here, so generalizing is dangerous - but it's interesting that it seems to break broadly along those who served and&nbsp;those who haven't.&nbsp; Not exactly - Gadfly being an exemplar.&nbsp; This isn't playing the chickenhawk card - in this case, I think your personal experience is at the core of your understanding of, and reaction to, the words.&nbsp;&nbsp; I suspect we'd see even more differentiation if we had a broader swath that included guys and gals&nbsp;who'd served in Reserve units from different eras, as well as an AF and Navy component to this discussion.]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92965</link>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:13:30 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from M. Orris on 2009-09-04</title>
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                <![CDATA[This has become a monster eh?&nbsp; Before some folks get their panties bundled too tight..........<br />
MARCHA MUNDIAL CONTRA HUGO CHAVEZ - 4 DE SEPTIEMBRE DE 2009<br />
&nbsp;Maybe that should become a theme..... I mean as a mere simple soldier - not a warrior I uonly nderstand Spanish, German and Arabic (or more acuately called Arabazi - pigeon-Arabic -&nbsp;a creation of self discipline - not bounty like a warrior expects....I serve for my nation to inhance the mission.....I want to end this war so my daughters are not faced with having to deal with this when they come of age.&nbsp; I hate war - but I will serve it - my beloved Army -so I can protect what is dear to me so what I love (my family) can rest safely....<br />
I do what I must - Ich Diene!&nbsp; I Serve!&nbsp; I love my nation;&nbsp;I love my people - and I will let all the &quot;HQ heros&quot; and their &quot;blood and guts&quot; stories carry the day as I am tired of their BS tales of self centered glory.&nbsp; Let us destroy the enemy and retire as required.&nbsp;&nbsp;]]>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 01:42:40 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Argent on 2009-09-04</title>
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                <![CDATA[I was going to read this but when the sentence about warrior = mercenary came up a realised this man is inaccurate and has an axe to grind so didn't keep going.<br />]]>
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            <pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 01:24:45 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from gadfly on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[<p>The author of the article makes some very important points and cites several historical examples.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Nonetheless, he ignores entirely the actual reason and historical circumstances for introducing the term &ldquo;warrior&rdquo; into general use in the Army.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>The debate, and it was a very lively debate, over the word &ldquo;warrior&rdquo; and &ldquo;soldier&rdquo; started in the late 1970s and continued into the 1980s.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>I was an enlisted man in the Army from 1970 to 1977, serving in military intelligence, and then served as a civilian intelligence officer with the Defense Intelligence Agency from 1978 till my retirement in 2004 and witnessed and participated in the debate personally.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>To understand the circumstances leading to this debate, it is necessary to go back to the military of the 1960s and 1970s.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>For those who did not serve during the 1960s and the 1970s, it is hard to describe just how bad things had become, not just in the Army, but in all the services.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Here are just a few examples.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>The first Sergeant-Major of the Army (a position created in the 1960s) turned out to be a first class crook running a kick-back scheme involving enlisted clubs all over the world.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Secretary of Defense McNamara forced &ldquo;Project 100,000&rdquo; on the Army in which 100,000 individuals who did not meet the minimum requirements for being <i>drafted</i> into the Army would be allowed to join the Army.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>While Army generals were telling busy telling Congress how successful &ldquo;Project 100,000&rdquo; was, I never met a single company or field grade officer that had anything good to say about the program.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>It was a discipline nightmare.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Drug use in all the services was rampant with the Navy going through a particularly embarrassing investigation into drug use on-board its ships.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Discipline in all the services after Vietnam suffered and morale in many units was almost non-existent.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>I knew an E-7 with 17 years whose morale was so low that he refused to re-enlist one last time to get his 20 years.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>There was a standing joke among the enlisted everywhere I served that we were looking for the &ldquo;real Army.&rdquo;<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Certainly, the real Army could not be like the units in which we had served.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>After 7 years I finally called it quits.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>I was tired of working for &ldquo;ticket punching&rdquo; officers and senior NCOs for whom I had little or no respect.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Were there good people in the military?<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Of course, but they were fighting against a system that seemed to be on bureaucratic auto-pilot.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>There was a recruitment angle in all this.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>After 1975 almost all the services (the Marines, as always, were the exception) seemed to pitch the military as anything but a warfighting organization.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Join the Navy, Army, Air Force to get an education, for the bonus, get a start in a future career in the civilian world, etc.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>About the only time you ran across anything hinting at warfare was in the barracks humor of the day.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>&ldquo;Join the Army, travel to interesting places, meeting interesting people, kill them.&rdquo;<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>It was in this atmosphere that the debate over the terms &ldquo;warrior&rdquo; and &ldquo;soldier&rdquo; took place.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>It had nothing whatsoever to do with &ldquo;tribal warrior culture&rdquo; or ancient Celts versus the Romans.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>It was about getting the word &ldquo;war&rdquo; back into the professional culture of the US Armed Forces.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>During my time in the Army I can remember very few officers or NCOs that really inspired me about the military.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>One of the exceptional individuals was a warrant officer that was assigned to the military intelligence in which I served in Vietnam near Bien Hoa.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>It was rumored that he was on his 5th or 6th tour in Vietnam.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Anyway, it was February 1972 and we expecting the Tet Offensive of 1972.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>(It turned out to be the Easter Offensive of 1972, which is an interesting story in itself that would be relevant here, but is too long to tell.)<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>So this warrant officer, whose name I can no longer recall, called all the junior enlisted together.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>After giving us a talk about the reality of the girls some of the guys were &ldquo;dating,&rdquo; Warrant Officer X proceeded to describe to us the reality of close quarter combat, as he had served in that same unit in that same location during the Tet Offensive of 1968.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>He ended his talk with a little speech.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>&ldquo;Let me tell you what your job in the Army is.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Your job is NOT to brag about how many drawer feet of classified material you are in charge of, NOT to brag about the clearances you have that others don&rsquo;t have, NOT to brag about how many generals you have briefed.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Your job is to help the private on point fight, win and survive the battle.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>The supply sergeant&rsquo;s job is to help the private on point fight, win and survive the battle.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>The PFC handing out ping pong paddles at special services, his job is to help the private on point fight, win and survive the battle.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>In fact, everybody&rsquo;s job in the Army from the Secretary of the Army and the Chief of Staff of the Army down to the private&rsquo;s platoon sergeant and platoon leader is to help the private on point fight, win and survive the battle.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>DON&rsquo;T YOU EVER FORGET IT.&rdquo;<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>I never have forgotten that.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>More than a decade later when I was in charge of training many of the new analysts coming into DIA, I would give them the same speech changing only that the private on point includes that pilot flying into harm&rsquo;s way, the naval craft sailing into harm&rsquo;s way and the Marine on point.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>I would then carefully observe the students&rsquo; reactions.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Sadly, the normal reaction was a puzzled look that seemed to express, &ldquo;What kind of fanatic is he?&rdquo;<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span></p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>The &ldquo;warrior&rdquo; versus &ldquo;soldier&rdquo; debate was in its essence a recognition that the spirit of that warrant officer in Vietnam needed to be re-instilled somehow into the professional culture of the Army, in particular, but also all the other services.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>That was what was meant by the &ldquo;warrior spirit.&rdquo;<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>It was not some allusion to &ldquo;warriorism&rdquo; in tribal cultures long dead and gone.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>It was a response to a very real crisis in which the Army and other services had taken a very wrong track and needed to get back on the right track.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span></p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>Is this debate still relevant today?<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>One would think that with the US Armed Forces committed to fighting on two fronts against some of the nastiest and most dangerous enemies that US has ever faced would be enough to inspire the &ldquo;warrior spirit.&rdquo;<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Sadly, I think that it is not so.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Certainly, as late as the 1990s after the first Gulf War, I continued to see the same bureaucratic mind-sets that I had seen before.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Here are just two examples among many that I could give.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>I watched a flag rank officer serving in intelligence at a social event telling junior officers (meaning lower than flag rank) of his service that the importance of his position in the military intelligence community was &ldquo;to protect the interests&rdquo; of his service.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Not to protect the interests of the USA, not to tell the truth regardless of consequences, not to protect servicemen and women in harm&rsquo;s way.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>TO PROTECT THE INTERESTS OF HIS SERVICE.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>I was disgusted.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>He was promoted.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>In another case I had written a report where I had quite justifiably criticized an office.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>A Special Forces officer asked to read my report.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>He had once been my boss and I let me have a copy.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>As I was leaving work one day, we met while walking to the parking lot.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>I asked him whether he had read the report.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>He said yes, then proceeded to ask whether I expected to get another assignment like that.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>I asked what he meant.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>He said, &ldquo;After writing a report like that, you&rsquo;ll never be given another assignment like that.&rdquo;<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>In other words, I had rocked the boat, and a SPECIAL FORCES officer of all people was telling me that I shouldn&rsquo;t rock the boat.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>In a 33 year career I could go on with example after example, but you get the point. &nbsp;As when I left the Army, I retired because I could no longer stand the bureaucracy. &nbsp;I loved my job, when I was permitted to do it, but I hated the constant battle with the bureaucracy.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>So what about the culture of the Army and the Armed Forces today?<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Personally, I am certain that the Armed Forces of the United States of America are the most professional military organization the world has ever seen.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Certainly, the response of the Armed Forces to the needs of the Soldiers, Marines, Sailors and Airmen in the field is better now than at any other time in the storied history of these Armed Forces.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Yet, the insidious nature of bureaucratic thinking, politics, and petty personal issues is now and always will be a threat to the true professionalism the Armed Forces requires.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Everyone in every service everywhere everyday needs to be constantly reminded that the essence of his or her job is ultimately to close with the enemy and destroy his will to resist by whatever force is required.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>That is the reality of warfare.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>That is why the military exists.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>I have no problem whatsoever with the term &ldquo;warrior-soldier.&rdquo;</p>]]>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 23:30:18 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Cortillaen on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[<blockquote>
Cortillean, you don't grasp the distinction posited by Major Orris, I doubt repetition will help.
</blockquote>Insulting my grasp of the arguments hardly strengthens your position.&nbsp; Contrary to your claim, I &quot;grasp the distinction&quot; full well.&nbsp; I simply don't agree that it is the correct one to be made.&nbsp; Boil the whole use of &quot;warrior&quot; in the military and you get esprit de corps on the inside and marketing on the outside.&nbsp; In both cases, the historical implications of the term are utterly useless.&nbsp; What matters is how most people perceive it.&nbsp; I won't accuse you of failing to grasp my point, but I will repeat it:&nbsp; As long as the popular concept of &quot;warrior&quot; is as I've outlined, its use is a net plus.&nbsp; Arguing that it can be used another way is a waste of time.<br />
<br />
If Mikey's point is to elaborate on his concept of &quot;warrior&quot; and &quot;soldier&quot;, that's fine, though repetitive.&nbsp; I was operating under the assumption that the two examples were support rather than repetition, in which case&nbsp;the point is&nbsp;indeed circular in regards to &quot;warrior&quot;, amounting to &quot;I say&nbsp;warrior =&nbsp;X,&nbsp;therefore warrior = X&quot;.&nbsp; The most it does is provide anecdotal evidence that &quot;Soldier&quot; involves discipline, something I was not arguing against.<br />
<br />
You can repeat it all you want, but I see no evidence beyond &quot;I say so&quot;s to support the &quot;warrior = individualist/undisciplined/etc&quot; concept.&nbsp; Even so, I'll even grant &quot;warrior&quot; being improper for internal discussion, given that I simply don't have the experience to argue for or against that proposition, but that usage does not appear to be the main concern here.&nbsp; To be relevant to the issue, you have to show that popular usage of the word also&nbsp;relies on&nbsp;the concept you propose rather than mine.&nbsp; If it doesn't, all the historical meanings in the world are pointless. This isn't the Constitution, to be examined in the context of meanings of the past.&nbsp; Like it or not, marketing cares nothing for historical meanings or any meanings at all save those in the target audience's minds.<br />
<br />
Beyond definitions and other sources considering the words synonyms, I've offered the issue of &quot;bushi&quot;, a term including those so strictly following your &quot;external discipline&quot; that they would disembowel themselves for certain offenses, being translated as both &quot;warrior&quot; and &quot;soldier&quot;.&nbsp; That speaks directly against the idea of &quot;warrior&quot; being undisciplined in popular consideration.&nbsp; What do you have suggesting that people consider &quot;warrior&quot; to imply a lack of discipline?]]>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 23:13:42 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Casey on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[Cortillean, you don't grasp the distinction posited by Major Orris, I doubt repetition will help.<br />
<br />
For what it's worth, the Major's definition is precisely congruent to what Jerry Pournelle has been writing about for several decades. A warrior fights because of the desire for glory, booty, or for himself. A soldier fights because of a sense of responsiblity. derived from citizenship. <br />
<br />
I would say part of the dissonance exists because you insist on using dictionary terms, while the Major, Professor Pournelle, and those who agree with them derive their usage from history and the study of cultures. The use of the term &quot;savages&quot; may confused things a bit; I&nbsp;would prefer tribesman myself, since that more directly refers to the tribal mentality warriors hold. Another way to differentiate would be saying:&nbsp;tribesman is to warrior as soldier is to citizen. Yet another way would be comparing warriors to teenagers, and soldiers to adults.<br />
<br />
And, Cortillean, I think you miss Mike's point, which was <em>not</em> circular. A soldier enjoys self-discipline, or at least accepts the responsibility of adhering to a set of rational principles such as the Soldiers Creed. On the other hand, a warrior -if disciplined at all- resentfully suffers&nbsp; externally-enforced discipline; they are rules enforced by an external authority, as compared to the internal moral choice of the soldier.<br />
<br />
John: I would be hesitant to highlight any special status for the Afghan tribes. In fact, I would say that they've been left alone most of the time just because once you conquer Afghanistan, <em>there's nothing to do with it</em>. Think about it; you are now lord and master of, well, a bunch of mountains in the middle of nowhere, and it's difficult just to get there in the first place. What's the point? <br />
<br />
I am reminded of P.J. O'Rourke's visit to the former Yugoslavia (<em>All the Trouble In The World</em>, IIRC), when he exclaims about the local collective obssession with being top dog:&nbsp;&quot;Don't you people get it?&nbsp;Even if you win, <em>all you've got is Yugoslavia</em>! It's not like you invaded France, or something.&quot;<br />
<br />
<br />]]>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:46:11 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Mikey NTH on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[Cortillean:&nbsp; Neither I nor my brother are arguing with dictionary definitions.&nbsp; The argument is conceptual - what is a warrior and what is a soldier.&nbsp; In all of the military history that I have read soldiers, disciplined, able to take adversity and reverse, and continue to fight were always superior overall to warriors.&nbsp; No band of mere warriors could have handled Roarke's Drift, or Guadalcanal, or Bastogne, or the Ia Drang valley<br />
<br />
Historically, warriors are 'summer soldiers and sunshine patriots'.&nbsp; The confusion, I think, is conflating 'warrior' with 'fighting spirit', or 'esprit de corps'.&nbsp; That kind of fighting spirit can be shown by any brave man, but soldiers can show that same fighting, aggressive spirit, and soldiers can show the discipline that is more than courage.<br />
<br />
Fighting spirit, combined with discipline.&nbsp; Hook may have been a scrapper, a fighter, but it was the Queen's Army that made him a soldier.]]>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 20:13:41 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Cortillaen on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[Mikey, I don't mean to be combattive, but do you have anything to support your claims of complete distinction between and definitions of &quot;warrior&quot; and &quot;soldier&quot;?&nbsp; I see only the claims and a pair of situations that have provide only circular support (if any at all).&nbsp; How do you address the fact that multiple contemporary dictionaries contain one word in the definition of the other, that the words are considered synonyms in a number of thesauri, and that &quot;bushi&quot; is translated into both interchangeably?]]>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:53:02 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from jsallison on 2009-09-03</title>
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                Being a soldier was good enough for me, though if you caught me off guard I&apos;d describe myself as a cavalryman.  Most of the company and field grades I knew that got all gooey over the warrior thing were the sort that I suspicioned were out to get me and mine killed en route to that c&amp;gsc slot.
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            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:45:05 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Mikey NTH on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[I wish to state that I am Maj. Orris' brother.&nbsp; Just to be clear.]]>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:43:18 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Mikey NTH on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[The terms 'warrior' and 'soldier' have distinct meanings.&nbsp; A soldier can be a warrior, but a warrior cannot be a soldier.&nbsp; A soldier has to have discipline, to do what is ordered, to go where he is ordered, without deciding he isn't going to do or go where he is ordered.&nbsp; The discipline goes beyond blood, clan, or tribe.&nbsp; It goes to an institution.<br />
<br />
A unit of cavalry charges, they break the lines, and before them is the baggage train of the enemy.&nbsp; The trumpets sound to regather the cavalry, reform it, and bring it back.&nbsp; Warriors ignore that and go for the loot; soldiers reform and return to their lines, ready to charge again.<br />
<br />
At Roarke's Drift, the British had a mixed force of line infantry, engineers, hospital staff, and other rear-area personnel.&nbsp; Did they behave as warriors, or as soldiers when facing that Zulu Impi?&nbsp; The retreat to the redoubt was not something a band of warriors could ever have pulled off, let alone building that redoubt under non-charismatic leaders.&nbsp; At the call of the trumpet disciplined soldiers pulled back not in rout but withdrew in order and resumed their places.<br />
<br />
Any brave man can be a warrior, but it takes a brave and disciplined man to be a soldier.]]>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:21:08 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Grumpy on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[@John, I actually sent my post a little while ago. I started, had an emergency, which commanded my full attention, I came back and then finished it.<br />
<br />
I found myself, thinking about your post 3 SEP 09, 3:43PM. You make the line of separation, not at scrappiness, but at &quot;group discipline of soldiers.&quot;<br />
<br />
You write, &quot;But perhaps, over time, the most successful 'warrior' society has been the tribes of Afghanistan, which have driven off numerous armies.<br />
<br />
Therein lies a cautionary tale.&quot;<br />
<br />
I notice you do not talk of the &quot;Nation of Afghanistan&quot;, but the &quot;Tribes of Afghanistan&quot; or the &quot;Cemetery of Empires&quot;. The whole region is actually tribal and not structured nations. They have &quot;home turf advantage&quot;, no minor thing.<br />
<br />
&quot;Cautionary tale = expectations?&quot;&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;]]>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:18:36 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Cortillaen on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[There isn't really much point arguing this issue further&nbsp;when it's very plain that &quot;warrior&quot; and &quot;soldier&quot; are being used with at least two distinct meanings.&nbsp; It's kinda like a game of chess in which each player thinks the pieces move different ways.&nbsp; Calling your opponent for an illegal&nbsp;move (usage of a word, in this metaphor) does no good when, in his mind, that move is perfectly valid.<br />
<br />
My contentions are&nbsp;that the usage of &quot;warrior&quot;&nbsp;by the military&nbsp;is totally different from that used to refer to savages, past or present, and&nbsp;that &quot;soldier&quot; encompasses people who don't take the job any differently than working in some corporate office.&nbsp; From those, I derive my argument that &quot;warrior&quot; is being used to differentiate between said people and those who demand excellence and victory.&nbsp; We can disagree on any or all parts of that line of reasoning, but the argument/discussion can't go beyond definitions until universally (for those on this site, anyway) accepted definitions are hammered out.&nbsp; You can't play the game until both people agree on how all the pieces work.<br />
<br />
If we're using historical examples, consider the Japanese term &quot;bushi&quot;.&nbsp; It is usually translated as &quot;warrior&quot;, but it&nbsp;refers primarily&nbsp;to&nbsp;the military caste, soldiers, rather than individualistic and/or&nbsp;selfish&nbsp;fighters.&nbsp; The limitations of the English language allow the word &quot;warrior&quot; to be used in reference to both groups, hence the disconnect.<br />
<br />
I'd also like to address two more issues brought up by Major Orris.&nbsp; First:<blockquote>
But this mantra that only &quot;warriors&quot; fight and that one would be insulted to be called a &quot;Soldier&quot; shows that this is a problem already.
</blockquote>I seem to recall someone posting something to that general effect, though I can't find it now, but I'm not seeing much evidence that considering &quot;soldier&quot; an insult is in any way a mantra.&nbsp; In fact, I imagine most servicemen and women would strongly disagree.&nbsp; I certainly do.&nbsp; Like I said, my view of military usage of &quot;warrior&quot; is that it is an addition to &quot;soldier&quot;, much like a medal.&nbsp; Hypothetically speaking,&nbsp;a soldier with the Medal of Honor wouldn't be offended to be called a &quot;soldier&quot;.&nbsp; Also being a Medal of Honor Recipient is simply something above and beyond that, a distinction that sets him apart from &quot;just soldiers&quot;.&nbsp; Likewise, a &quot;Warrior-Soldier&quot; would not be offended by being addressed as the latter since the former is an addition thereon.&nbsp; Of course, all of this is based on my definitions of &quot;soldier&quot; and &quot;warrior&quot;, not the ones Major Orris and&nbsp;others are using, which goes back to my main point.<br />
<br />
The second issue is the Marines.&nbsp; I'm not really sure the whole &quot;warrior vs. soldier/marine&quot; deal is viable in the context of the Marines, simply because of what they are and how they are viewed.&nbsp; My observation that there are soldiers who view their job as &quot;just another job&quot;, part of the basis for my argument, does not apply to a group viewed, internally and externally, as wholly composed of the elite, of &quot;warriors&quot; (my definition).<br />
<br />
In the end, &quot;warrior&quot; is a buzzword.&nbsp; Given that most people do not take common usage of the word in the historical sense (read: savages), it's not a bad buzzword, either.&nbsp; This rather seems like making a mountain out of a molehill due to focusing entirely on a less-than-common meaning of the word.&nbsp; I see no problem with the word used simply as advertising, and, if it motivates more people to serve, and some people to serve better than they otherwise would, all the better. Being overly sensitive and taking the word in a way it was clearly not meant doesn't really do anyone any good, does it?]]>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:59:46 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Grumpy on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[Let me see if I remember this correctly, &quot;The amateurs discuss tactics, the professionals discuss logistics.&quot; To put it a different way, someone comes up to you and sarcastically calls you a rectal sphincter muscle. This is my comparison to this debate. My question back to the other person becomes this, what are you like, when yours is not functioning normally? That muscle becomes the center of your functional world. I think we all know words matter, but now, we see contextual functioning also matters equally. If we take a group of warriors and put them into battle without the necessary logistics, what do we have? We have a group of *unhappy warriors, a really bad mix.*]]>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:51:29 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[One reason I posted this is because I'm proud to have been, and technically still am, a soldier.<br />
<br />
Vice a warrior.<br />
<br />
Doesn't mean a soldier doesn't fight with the same level of scrappiness as a warrior - but warriors rarely fight witht the group discipline of soldiers.<br />
<br />
Which is one reason the Miniconjou and Sans Arc don't run Montana and Wyoming, and that the Mahdi is a footnote in Briitsh colonial history.<br />
<br />
But, perhaps, over time, the most successful &quot;warrior&quot; society has been the tribes of Afghanistan, which have driven off numerous armies.<br />
<br />
Therein lies a cautionary tale.<br />
<br />]]>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:43:43 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from M. Orris on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[I expect my supply NCO to do his assigned MOS (supply) as well as being able to fight - as being a soldier that's what is expected.<br />
<br />
Perhaps, the simplest way to address this is looking at the Marines.&nbsp; The Marines are fond of saying, &quot;Every Marine a Riflemen.&quot;&nbsp; Which means that regardless of your MOS you are expected as a Marine to be aggressive and to be able to close with and destroy the enemy.&nbsp; Period.&nbsp; Because USMC recruiting has always hammered home that a Marine is a fighter regardless of MOS.<br />
<br />
Words matter for they convey ideas.&nbsp; Do we classify the tribal militias in Afghanistan or Somalia as &quot;soldiers&quot;?&nbsp; No, they are &quot;warriors&quot; in the truest historcial and practical sense of the word.&nbsp; Read the accounts of the French and Indian&nbsp;Wars and how neither the British or French could really control their&nbsp;Indian &quot;warriors&quot; because they&nbsp;did what they wanted to do - such as blunder, massacre, or simply leave when they felt like it.&nbsp; So mercenary applies because&nbsp;such an outlook is about&nbsp;getting what you want&nbsp;and then saying, bye-bye.&nbsp; <br />
<br />
But this mantra that only &quot;warriors&quot; fight and that one would be insulted to be called a&nbsp; &quot;Soldier&quot; shows that this is a problem already.&nbsp; Would any Marine be insulted if they were referred to being only just a Marine?&nbsp; I doubt it very much because they have been taught to be proud of being a Marine and all that it represents.&nbsp; We would be well advised to do the same to the word Soldier as the USMC has done, consistantly I might add, with the word Marine.&nbsp; <br />
<br />]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92935</link>
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            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 14:46:10 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Cortillaen on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[Seems a certain... well, &quot;certain&quot; got dropped when I fixed another typo pre-post.&nbsp; That should read, &quot;... and I'm <em>certain</em> anyone...&quot;<br />]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92931</link>
            <guid>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92931</guid>
            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:48:43 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from AFSister on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[I'm inclined to agree with you, Cortillean, and I believe that is the intent of the Army's emphasis of&nbsp;the new&nbsp;&quot;Warrior Ethos&quot; instead of the &quot;Soldier's Creed&quot;.]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92929</link>
            <guid>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92929</guid>
            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:37:43 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from BillT on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[I remember when &quot;Warrior&quot; first became a buzzword back in The Day. Some Bright Light from HQNJARNG called us into a horseshoe formation during a weekend drill, then brought an infantry E-6 all pumped up and cammied up in to recite an &quot;I Am A Warrior&quot; spiel in stentorian tones.<br />
<br />
He started out well, then he noticed all the combat patches. To his credit, he only gulped once, and made a strong finish. The Bright Light then took the opportunity to explain to us, in excruciating detail, what being a Warrior was all about, exhorting us to be true Warriors should the occasion arise for us to go forth and Fight Outnumbered And Win! against the Atheistic Hordes of Godless Communism.<br />
<br />
It made a nice break from planning how to best kill tanks and survive the triple-A, missiles, and MiGs long enough to re-arm and refuel before going out to do it again...]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92928</link>
            <guid>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92928</guid>
            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:19:08 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Cortillaen on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[I think Major Orris actually has the comparison backwards based on a rather unusual interpretation of the word &quot;warrior&quot;. I certainly wouldn't ever conflate &quot;warrior&quot; and &quot;mercenary&quot;. To me, at least, a warrior is one who fights to win, above all else. They may be fighting for honor, glory, or loot, but winning is the goal, and they're willing to do whatever it takes to achieve that goal. In short, &quot;warrior&quot; is the mindset of unyielding pursuit of victory. On the other hand, &quot;soldier&quot; is a profession, a job, and I'm anyone who's been in the service knows someone who is/was a &quot;soldier&quot;, but most certainly is not their out of pursuit of excellence, victory, or even duty. Military organizations wanted something to differentiate between &quot;soldiers&quot; who simply do a job because it's their job and those who excel at the job due to their demand for excellence from themselves. &quot;Warrior&quot;, as described above, was the perfect word for the task.<br />
<br />
Just my two cents, which ended up a lot more concise than I expected...]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92927</link>
            <guid>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92927</guid>
            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:15:14 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Saker on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[An Army infantry officer told me recently &quot;we want to instill the warrior ethos in everyone&quot; (he meant &quot;even people like you, who are going into a non-combat MOS&quot;) Unless I am mistaken, that ethos is: I will always place the mission first /&nbsp; I&nbsp;will never accept defeat / I&nbsp;will never quit / I will never leave a fallen comrade.<br />
<br />
That sounds closer to the author's definition of a soldier than a warrior... I&nbsp;agree with SK that word definitions shift over time, and I&nbsp;also agree with the author that the word &quot;warrior&quot; was selected for its coolness factor in recruiting.<br />]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92922</link>
            <guid>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92922</guid>
            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:59:14 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from SK on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[Words definitely matter, just ask an attorney :-)&nbsp; I found the differences stated and the comments really interesting. Having a collection of old books, including dictionaries, I often find the meanings are&nbsp;altered over the years. Just to see what the differences might be, I looked up soldier and warrior in a 50 yr old dictionary, also Webster's btw.<br />
<br />
Back then:<br />
<br />
Soldier: <br />
1. a man engaged in military service; specifically, a man enlisted for service in an army.<br />
2. an enlisted man, as distinguished from one holding a warrant or commission.<br />
3. a man of much military experience or skill<br />
<br />
Warrior:<br />
1. to make war<br />
2. a man experienced or engaged in warfare; a fighting man]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92919</link>
            <guid>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92919</guid>
            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:40:25 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from 11B40 on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[&nbsp;Greetings:<br />
<br />
During my military service, part of the folk wisdom was &quot;there are soldiers that march and there are soldiers that fight&quot;. &nbsp;My impression is that the author, Major Orris, besides demonstrating his rhetorical skills, is trying to address that philosophical question. &nbsp;<br />
<br />
During the Viet Nam conflict, it was commonly accepted that there were 8-9 support troops for each one in the combat arms. &nbsp;That would be one aspect of discrimination. &nbsp;Those who close with and destroy the enemy would be ranked closer to the warrior end of any soldier-warrior continuum. &nbsp;But that doesn't preclude some/any support troop having the mentality to expand into that end of the business.<br />
<br />
If one accepts the soldiering population as subject to a bell curve distribution along the the soldier-warrior dimension, as a failed psychologist like myself is wont to do, it's not unreasonable to posit that almost all soldiers have some aspects of both. &nbsp;During my (draft-induced) military service I would some time think to myself, &quot;How did this guy end up in the infantry&quot;. &nbsp;Thankfully, we had a mortar platoon where the most non-warrior riflemen could make some contribution (humping mortar rounds) while completing their sojourn. &nbsp;But, even within our rifle platoons, one could see that some troopers were more willing and able to make war than others.<br />
<br />
With the arrival of the &quot;volunteer&quot; military, there may well have been a bell curve shift toward the warrior end of the spectrum, but I think that there will still be some overall distribution between those with the desire to be in the military and those with the desire to make war. &nbsp;And that latter attitude, to me, is the essence of the warrior. &nbsp;So, to me, the Major's treatise comes across as somewhere between spin-ish and sophomoric. &nbsp;You know, like that, &quot;How many angels can dance on the head of a pin&quot; thing.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92918</link>
            <guid>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92918</guid>
            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:39:10 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from USMC Steve on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[By the definition he has up there, and they are correct from what I have observed, he is just about spot on.&nbsp; Everyone in the Army should strive to be a soldier,&nbsp;because that is what they are supposed to be.&nbsp;&nbsp;And just being in the Army does not&nbsp;necessarily make one a Soldier.&nbsp; That is also a&nbsp;frame or state of mind.&nbsp;&nbsp;<br />
<br />
While Webster has that as a definition, he is wrong in actual application.&nbsp; Look at just about every culture that ever had &quot;warriors&quot; including&nbsp;American indians.&nbsp; They were&nbsp;just about exactly what was described above.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; And they also tend to be present in more primitive tribal societies as well.]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92908</link>
            <guid>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92908</guid>
            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 10:53:34 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from AFSister on 2009-09-03</title>
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                <![CDATA[Personally, I think the dude is being petty and is reading WAY too much into &quot;Warrior-Soldier of the Week&quot;.<br />
<br />
He said he didn't want or need his supply sergeant to be a warrior- just a soldier.&nbsp; I'd take offense to that if I were that supply sergeant.&nbsp; EVERY person in our military is a warrior of sorts.&nbsp; At some point, guys on special forces units are supply sergeants running the &quot;beans and bullets brigade&quot; for the team in the field.&nbsp; Doesn't mean they are less of a soldier- or a warrior.<br />
<br />
When we belittle the job being done by non-infantry, we widen the gap between the &quot;warrior&quot; and the &quot;soldier&quot;.&nbsp; <br />
<br />
I would also suggest that you examine the Webster's definition of warrior, which reads:<br />
1. a person engaged or experienced in warfare; soldier. <br />
2. a person who shows or has shown great vigor, courage, or aggressiveness, as in politics or athletics. <br />]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92904</link>
            <guid>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/09/warrior_versus.html#comment-92904</guid>
            <pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 10:14:24 -0600</pubDate>
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