Comments for Somethin's burnin'...

Somethin's burnin'...

Mon, 24 Aug 2009 07:14:08 -0600

A month or so ago I answered some basic questions about artillery that were posed by a reader. As the discussion wandered on in the comments, the statute of limitations for re-writing my Officer Efficiency Report or bringing charges for "failure to obey" (in this case, the rules set forth for disposing of excess powder increments) having passed, I related the following story... this time with illustrations by a Marine gun crew (who are doing it correctly, mind you... so the illustrations are, a touch misleading in *that* regard). Yeah, I know, I'm going to suffer the slings and arrows of snarkitude about that. Original comment in italics. Stupid Lieutenant Trick #98,785,401 Spend a day shooting Charge 5 White Bag. As in, over 100 rounds from that position. That leaves a *lot* of unused powder increments. Like, over 200 of them.

Comment from RetRsvMike on 2009-08-24

Mon, 24 Aug 2009 18:01:41 -0600

ah, Fred, you have asked the million memory question....

sorry i can't give ya the answer, but John's mention of metering, reliabilty, and safety safety safety pretty much covers the spectrum of the biggest categories of "why not"...

...for an interesting diversionary hour or week of internet browsing, start with WW II German torpedo liquid propellants, and run with it. (then imagine doing same on project deadline for an info paper back in the mid-late 80's before these here fancy internets).

Comment from og on 2009-08-24

Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:58:00 -0600

Jonesing for a whatsis here, boss. Not that the splodey pics are a bad thing.

Comment from Grumpy on 2009-08-24

Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:07:50 -0600

Creative problem resolution? Hopefully. I guess you kinda worry about those things that go *Boom* in the night. This is especially true if you are at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-08-24

Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:10:41 -0600

Well, my answer was a little incomplete above, too. Liquid propellant was under development for the Crusader system, but was not doing well, with problems revolving around accurate metering into the breech, system reliability, and safety concerns.

The difficulties in dealing with liquid propellant did lead to the development of a new charge system, the Modular Artillery Charge System, or MACS. The new modular charges should actually address the issue Tim raised, as there are no unused increments, and they've been optimized for mechanical handling by having semi-rigid combustible cases, which makes them far less likely to jam up an autoloader than the bagged charges.

Comment from Kevin on 2009-08-24

Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:06:38 -0600

I do not advocate, condone, suggest or have any knowledge of the hilarity and possible 3rd degree burns that might result, IF, a wayward kernel of greenbag found its way into a bar ashtray on a late, Friday night......

TG for statuate of limitations eh?

Comment from Fred on 2009-08-24

Mon, 24 Aug 2009 10:58:43 -0600

Whatever happened to the idea of feeding a gun liquid propellant? I haven't heard anything about that in a few years.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-08-24

Mon, 24 Aug 2009 10:42:04 -0600

Each charge, either white bag or green, is intended to cover a long range of range/trajectory options. You start with a full charge for full range and then remove powder and vary elevation to achieve lesser ranges.

Each charge comes packed in a sealed, weather-proof container. Once you open that container, the moisture in the air immediately begins to attack the powder, essentially, degrading the performance of the powder. The powder comes stacked on pallets, and the flow is essentially one-way from the factory to the gun. The powder cans are reused/recycled or disposed of locally, depending on the situation, whether wartime or peacetime, in the US or elsewhere, etc.

The powder is precisely made and measured, so that it performs predictably.

To reuse unused increments, you'd have to repack them to protect them from moisture, and repalletize the containers and ship them back through the logisitics system as hazmat, until it got to a facility that would be able to reprocess it... except.

Powder is packed and tracked by lot number - essentially batch numbers from specific production runs. This is done so that all powder from a lot is from the same mix of ingredients and was processed in the same environmental conditions.

On the firing point, you hope to get all your powder from the same lot - if not, you then group your powder lots by gun. You do this because the guns all have radar chronometers which measure muzzle velocity and determine the variation from standard - and different lots, in addition to gun-bore conditions, will produce different muzzle velocity variations, which have to be accounted for.

Now you're considering taking powder that has been exposed to environmental air and sent back to a facility, which is from potentially many different lots, to be blended together, repackaged, and resent.

Cheaper, safer, and simpler to just burn the unused powder.

Comment from Tim on 2009-08-24

Mon, 24 Aug 2009 10:23:34 -0600

OK, I'll bite. Why is there so much powder left over? Why isn't it saved for later use?

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-08-24

Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:24:42 -0600

Yeah, Mike - your story is also a good cautionary tale...

Pogue - the post is long enough without a crew-drill critique!

Comment from Pogue on 2009-08-24

Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:13:39 -0600

Nice pics, but I kind of cringe at seeing 4 exposed charges on the trail plus one in hand. We always kept our powder a little further away and in the shipping cans after they were cut. I guess the Marines use a different procedure. The pictures don't do justice to the amount of heat you feel even with a proper burn though... :-)

Comment from Mike L on 2009-08-24

Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:06:46 -0600

John - I suspect "most" Redlegs have abused the method. I certainly did - right over the hill from Range Control. Hard to believe how warm a 23 degrees below zero day can get; fast too!! ML