Comments for Lessons learned... or not?

Lessons learned... or not?

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 07:55:29 -0600

Reader and frequent commenter JimB (he of Scoresby fame) sent me a few pictures, with some text.A walk down memory lane. Remember how the early M16 muzzle brake used to snag on everything in the jungle? Remember how troops used to break the prongs off using the muzzle brake to open (break the wires) around C-Rat cases?Indeed, I do. It's also mentioned in Chapter 14 of Stevens' and Ezell's book The Black Rifle. I was also an Army brat and I listened when the dads around me were talking.Jim agrees we could use a new rifle. I agree we could...

Comment from Old Quartermaster on 2009-06-22

Mon, 22 Jun 2009 01:36:15 -0600

Steve,

Having been a quartermaster in that time frame I can relate. The last skipper we had while I was on board used to have the quartermasters shoot. He would issue the command, "Quartermaster, standby to repel boarders." The two Garands would come off the bulkhead and two of us would take turns shooting into the pond and the other shooting at the splash. The ammo was WWII or Korean vintage and there were always a few failure to fire rounds that wound up under the bridge wing gratings.

One morning at San Clemente we had an accidental discharge of the 5 inch 54 into the center of the illegally anchored fishing fleet at Pyramid cove. We didn't have to wait for the range safety boat to chase them away that morning. Fortunately, no one was injured.

Comment from R Jewell on 2009-06-21

Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:17:36 -0600

"most likely to go to the prom"......most likely to go straight to VN after training is what I meant by it, Argent.

Comment from Justthisguy on 2009-06-21

Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:17:51 -0600

If you people had just adopted a decent 7mm cartridge back in the last century of the last millenium, this would not be (so much of) a problem. As a 7mm crank, I would like to point out...

[Jtg giggles, smells finger, is distracted by shiny object]

Comment from Steve Skubinna on 2009-06-21

Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:24:46 -0600

The first service rifle I shot was a Garand. Nope, I'm not that old, I was a Navy brat at the time. My dad was CO of a destroyer in the early seventies, and the Navy, always the last to change over small arms (until very recently anyway), had arms lockers afloat filled with Garands and BARs and Tommy guns. The XO was one of the few Navy guys at the time interested in small arms marksmanship, and had a practice of drawing an M1 whenever the ship fired the main battery (5 in 38 cal). He'd have the gunners mates toss a few of the casings over the side and plink at them.

My dad would sometimes take me out of school for the day if his ship was doing something interesting in the SOCAL OPAREA. This day they were shooting at San Clemente Island, the XO was on the wing shooting, he asked me if I wanted to shoot, looked over at dad and asked "Captain?" Dad said sure, and I got to put a few clips into the water, actually managing to hit the same ocean the casings were floating in.

Lordy, what a day! Later, when his ship deployed to Vietnam, I got to ride her as far as Pearl, standing bridge watches with the Quartermasters (navigators to you Army types). Later, all my classmates were pissed because my "how I spent my summer vacation" paper eclipsed theirs.

Today I have two Garands... wish I could have one of those old BARs and Tommy guns from back then, as well.

Comment from Argent on 2009-06-21

Sun, 21 Jun 2009 05:10:22 -0600

I bet it makes a good bottle opener too. Is innovation flow into these weapons in short supply?

What does "most likely to go to the Prom" mean?

I am getting an invalid certificate from the PEO link.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-06-20

Sat, 20 Jun 2009 13:24:56 -0600

For everyone's benefit - the weapon has already been cleared, bolt removed, and the bolt head and extractor removed.

So, next...

Rest the firing pin point on a hardwood surface (or anything to protect the end of the pin and that won't itself be damaged by the pressure you're about to put on it) and press down on the bolt and safety until the cocking piece clears the firing pin nut.

Then unscrew the firing pin nut.

Separate the cocking piece and safety from the firing pin, and you can then remove the pin and spring from the bolt..

Reassembly is in reverse.

Make sure you align the flat on the cocking piece with the flat on the firing pin.

Lemme know how it works out

Comment from eric on 2009-06-20

Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:57:05 -0600

Hi John

I have the bolt out of the rifle (screw and washer are out). The front end of the bolt is apart from the main body of the bolt. Now I am looking at the end of the bolt. There is a screw/nut there, next to the safety lever, that I want unscrewed. With the 71/84 it's simple, but with the 1871 it look likes it's impossible for normal users (only for arsenal experts with special tools).

Comment from R Jewell on 2009-06-19

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 22:00:11 -0600

My basic training at Benning in '68 was with the M-14.

Then just prior to graduation about 15 of us were called out of formation.......Tagged by 1SG as "most likely to go to the Prom", we got a couple of days with the 16. That was the last time I saw the "wire cutter" model.

Comment from BillT on 2009-06-19

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:43:30 -0600

Whatever happened to that death ray BCR was working on? I heard BATF was chewing the wallpaper because they couldn't decide whether the "continuous beam" setting qualified it as an automatic weapon...

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-06-19

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:14:04 -0600

Pogue - there are no "government arsenals" doing that kind of development, and haven't been since Springfield was shut down by MacNamara.

There is only PEO-Soldier and the Marine equivalent, along with guys at SOCOM, who develop requirements and passes them to industry for development.

There's another side to this is that the basic technology is very mature, and thus isn't subject to a whole lot of tinkering at the edges - though we still may find someone who comes up with a huge conceptual breakthrough.

But with all the high-tech widgetry the Army wants on it's rifles, I don't see too many garage Armorers tinkering their way through steerable munitions.

Metal Storm (anyone heard anything about them lately?) being something along the lines of an exception there.

Plus, all the weapons being developed for the military, aside from sniping and pistols, have very little sales potential outside of the military and well-heeled law enforcement. So the incentive for the little guy is all that tweaking we're seeing in calibers, mostly based on AR-style receivers, and fiddling with alternatives on the gas system, in weapons that can be sold to regular joes.

And the semi-auto versions of the military weapons are running in the $2-5K realm, so the market isn't all that huge there, either.

Comment from Fishmugger on 2009-06-19

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:11:24 -0600

Back before I had to shave everyday, the Air Force issued us the AR-15 to make little holes in paper targets. They took away our M2 Carbines which negated my 30 cal ball point pen target enhancer and we had to really shoot after that.

We thought the AR was nice to shoot squirrels from the back porch or zip a few crows but we really didn't think it would actually hurt anybody...and that's the reason they gave it to us.

It didn't feel like a gun, it didn't sound like a gun, and there was no wood. It never dawned on us that the next generation would become the peacemaker to the world. Well...after they fixed all the upgrades the Army thought they needed.

Comment from Pogue on 2009-06-19

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:02:53 -0600

BATFE regulations pretty much discourage any bicycle shop inventors these days, so I don't think we'll be seeing another John Browning any time soon, the government arsenals might produce a John Garand, but they would probably choke him with paperwork. FN is pretty much the only game in town anymore.

Comment from Heartless Libertarian on 2009-06-19

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:42:51 -0600

There is that guy who made that seriously space-gun looking SMG that was on the cover of Small Arms Review a few months back. I forget the name, but it has a very unusual mechanism where the bolt travels back and down.

They're supposedly working on a rifle-caliber version.

Other than that, it's mostly incremental - designs like the Masada (which borrowed liberally from the M16) and the RobArm XCR.

Even the Grendel and 6.8 SPC were constrained by the need to fit in an AR-framed weapon.

Personally, I still think necking down the old 7.62x45 Czech round to 6.5 would be pretty close to ideal.

Comment from JimC on 2009-06-19

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:49:02 -0600

John,

Is there a modern John Browning or even a Eugene Stoner clone out there?

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-06-19

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:30:44 -0600

Eric - you are correct, I believe, in terms of firearms innovation, at least on those that make it past the military filters.

I believe there is also a real belief on the part of the smaller makers that they can't get past Colt, FN, etc, so they don't even bother trying.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-06-19

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:26:54 -0600

Are you wanting to get the bolt out of the receiver, or disassemble the bolt proper?

Backing out the screw on the right side of the receiver should allow you to remove the bolt.

Disassembling the bolt itself, I'll have to go home and look at mine, rather than try to talk you through it from memory.

Comment from 11B40 on 2009-06-19

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:23:08 -0600

Greetings:

I spent my time with the M-16 in '68 & '69. I was with the 1st Cav and we spent most of our time out in the bush due to the joys of airmobility. About a month into my tour, I picked up a CARB-15 and relocated the front end onto my M-16 stock. It was sweet in the bush and adequate in open areas.

What really ticked me off was the scarcity of the 30-round magazines. Some of our guys actually had them sent from home.

Comment from BillT on 2009-06-19

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:15:42 -0600

I qualified with the M-1. Using AP, which our dorkwad Assistant-4 insisted meant "All-Purpose"...

When I brought his attention to the black tips, he said that was a protective coating to enable the bullet to travel farther. I'm firmly convinced the SOB found a career in procurement during the 1970-1990 timeframe...

Comment from eric on 2009-06-19

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:57:05 -0600

Oh oh, rifle discussions among yanks! That could become ugly. Anyone remember the British EM2? The US is now with the 6.8 spc and 6.5 grendel where the Brits were in '51 and is it just me or are the real rifle innovations coming from outside of the US? Apart from Barrett all I really see is m16 clones.

Now to a real rifle:

How do you dismantle a Mauser 1871 bolt? I am cleaning mine right now and I wanted to unscrew the nut (?) at the end of the bolt next to the safety lever. Like you do with a Mauser 71/84. That's not possible on a 1871.

I vaguely remembered someone around here had a few old rifles himself. Any thougths on the bolt?

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-06-19

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:09:20 -0600

Gee, Jim, you don't memorize everything I write, eh?

I used M14's in ROTC, too - we got them from the 128th FA in Columbia.

As for the spell checker - can you see the box within the comment box - there at the top of the box? The one that has MS standard formatting commands in it? If you can, the spell check is at the end of the top line.

If you can't - we need to talk what browser and settings you are using.

Comment from JimC on 2009-06-19

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:58:28 -0600

Being a tad older than you John, my first experience was with the M-14 in ROTC. The M-14 is what we qualified on. My first experiences with the M-16 were with the M-16 original production models at summer camp at the Benning School for Boys and like most everyone else I knew then I wanted the M-14's back. Marine General Lew Walt wrote eloquently on the subject. Yes, you could break C ration wire with it because I have done it.

I suspect your analysis of the our current battle rifle as the best compromise is accurate. It is probably a collection of best compromises. I don't know of any reputation for excellence belonging to the rifle or its carbine derivatives. But, they are accurate enough at the necessary ranges and can certainly put out a significant stream of lead. The service of the M-16 family of rifles and carbines has been long and honorable but it is time to retire them.

BTW, the combox needs a spell checker.

Comment from BillT on 2009-06-19

Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:00:35 -0600

Oh, man -- are those prongs ever *begging* to cut wire or what?