previous post next post  

Instead of a Whatziss, a Whyziss

Alrighty then - two weeks ago we had this Whatziss, the Czech RPG-7 sub-caliber trainer.

The Arsenal of Argghhh!'s RPG-7, with the Czech PG-7 sub-caliber trainer loaded.

Here's a picture of the Arsenal's RPG-7 with the PG-7 sub-caliber trainer inserted.  Note this is the basic RPG-7 - not an RPG-7V, which is more common.  The RPG-7V has the provision for the telescopic sight, though it's not always fitted.  The original RPG-7 was just an evolutionary step up from the RPG-2 - in terms of a bigger warhead with a greater range, and adjustable iron sights, vice fixed.  The markings on the trigger group of the Castle's RPG (which is deactivated, though I'm considering applying to reactivate it so that I can use the trainer in it) are not the ones you commonly find on Soviet RPGs, which has led to speculation that the one we hold at Castle Argghhh! (which came out of captured stocks sold by Israel) may be one of the early prototypes.  But, we don't know, that's just speculation from the experts who've examined it.   It could also just be from an unknown maker in some Pact nation.  It's not Chinese.

Now that we know what it is... let's address the "why's" of those features that led you down the primrose path  - the 'eccentric' nature (that is, off-center) of what looked like a splined shaft and bearing, which in fact was a rifled barrel held in place by a fixed collar.

So, here's a few views of the trainer to refresh your memory.  Now that you know what it is - the question becomes, "Whyziss?"

Business end of the PG-7 sub-caliber trainer.

A view without the collar.

Why is it made the way it is?

24 Comments


 John,

   My guess would be allow the sub-calibre training round to more closely emulate the flight characteristics of the actual RPG.

   The slower RPG will have a more parabolic flight path than the higher-velocity training round, and so you want to see the training round hit where the RPG is supposed to.

   Anyway, that's my 2-cent's worth :)
 
My best guesses

a)

1) Yellow because that's an easily seen 'training' colour
2) Barrel (and 'gun') to provide an emulation of the force and shock of using the real RPG for training familairisation purposes
3) Bolts in order to allow the angle to match the direction of force in the real RPG
4) Paint to ensure the angle isn't played with by the hoi polloi
5) the collar, ring etc is for structural reasons.

b) it's cheap.

 
Hmmm. Does anyone else notice that the nosepiece is off-center? The whole grenade appears off-center in the launching tube, but the fiddly-bit inside of the nosepiece-fuze ring seems off-center as well.

Whyzzat?
 
"Why is it made the way it is?"

Boresighting.
 
The hole in the warhead is centered on the bore.  The collar and the barrel are off-center.
 
To allow the point of impact of the 7.62 x 39 round to duplicate as closely as possible the point of impact of the RPG.

As for the rifling, I cannot imagine why they'd rifle anything like that, and I'd give a dollar to see the round after it exits that muzzle.
 
Og, do you need my Paypal address?  8^ )  Of course, I'll have to dig up some military ball ammo.  The bulk of the 7.62x39 I have at the moment is soft-points, which will make recovering a useful-for-inspection round a bit trickier.
 
Oh, and by the way - should any *users* of this thing drop by, I'd love some disassembly instructions.  I've figured out how to do everything except remove the bolt.
 
hey, I'd send it in an envelope it it would help. The rifling is cut far too deep for that caliber by far, and I'm trying to understand the reasons for it. I'd also like to see if the rifling is cut to the same depth through the bore, or if it has deeper grooves toward the muzzle. Based on the proportions I can see, it looks as if the groove diameter is about .020 more than the land diameter, which is excessive. More than excessive. insane, in fact.

the normal land/groove for a 7.62 round is 308 groove diameter and .300 bore diameter (land diameter)
 
My guess is the offset bore allows a point of impact that is in the same vicinity as the grenade - since the grenade is fin and spin stabilized the point of impact isn't going to be the same as borsight.  I'm going out on a limb here, but the deep groves could be to allow sufficient blowby to reduce the velocity of the 7.62 X39 round, again to better simulate the POI of the grenade.  We would develop a special training round for this...  (Remember that nasty subcaliber device for the 155?)
 
The 14.5mm trainer.  If Sarco ever gets permission to import 'em...
 
Which manual are you using to to take down your RPG?
 
We're not trying to take down the RPG - what little of that there is to do I know how to do.  I'm referring to the sub-caliber device. If you missed that discussion, click on the first link in this article.

The sub-caliber trainer mimics a rocket.
 
It's cruciform rifling, copied from a rare Puckle gun. Round bullets for Christians, square bullets for Infidels, cruciform for anyone else.
 
Yes, yes. More to the point - where do all these RPG rounds come from? Malicious Folks are firing them off in large numbers all over ME/Central Asia. These rounds don't grow on trees. There must be factories somewhere producing them. And they are just like any other round of ammo. They must get broke, corroded, etc. I cannot believe that all the rounds being fired off by the Malicious Folks have been in store since the Good Ole Bad Ole Cold War. Why don't we find the factories making RPG rounds. Make 'em an offer they can't refuse...

Completely missing the Whatziss/Whyziss point, I know, but fascinated to know who the RPG minters de jour are. I want to add them to my mailing list.
 
Tripper - many of the rockets we find in the Iraq and Afstan theaters are of Soviet, Chinese, or Iranian origin.  Many of the russian/Soviet rockets may have come from stockpiles in Syria, Iraq, or elsewhere in the world.

Most of the new manufacture rockets (as far as I know) have a Chinese or Iranian origin.
 
I'm coming in from left field here and saying that it's built that way to induce some type of spin to stabilize flight path.  EIther that or is pertaining to the airfoil nature of the rocket and which direction the 'lift' works.  By putting it off kilter and down, at least in your photo it's down, you could over come a downward force somewhat. 

But that's me.  Now how do I put the *good tequila* back into the catapult suspension? 
 
"The 14.5mm trainer. If Sarco ever gets permission to import 'em... "

Uh-huh...  Then you'll want to get the DEWAT M109, then you'll want to REWAT it so you can set up the reduced range and use all your reduced range FDC stuff,  then you'll be saying, "You know, I've got enough land for a 5 Green Bag..."  Before you know it you'll be upsetting the neighbors.  :p

 
Pogue: Dream-killing bastard.
 
I'd just like to know where you get all this neat stuff!

I mean, used to be we could just pick 'em up on the side of the road next to the unfortunate whose tried to fire it at us, but what about one (suitibly demiled) to mount on the wall behind the bar?

"Whyziss?" - Making room for the "gun" part of the trainer?  Positioning it flight of the training round to replicate the flight of the war shot?  (The SMAWs spotter rifle operated under the same idea - duplicating the flight path of the main rocket...)
 
I would guess the deep lands are to permit blowby and reduce the muzzle velocity so the trajectory better replicated the normal RPG munition.  We used to have a 9mm tracer sub cal device for the AT-4.
 
Of course, what JW *meant* to say was deep grooves...
 
OK< dude, come clean before I lose the rest of my mind.
 
But, Og, I've got *tests* to run this weekend...