Comments for "Cap and Trade" for Dummies

"Cap and Trade" for Dummies

Sat, 27 Jun 2009 12:09:25 -0600

Let's say Company A creates forty million tons of the dreaded Cee-Owe-Two, which the EPA recently reclassified from "essential plant nutrient" to "fearsome greenhouse toxin."Now let's say Company B creates *no* Cee-Owe-Two, other than that which is produced by the human beings in its employ during the normal process of *breathing.*Congress now declares that any Cee-Owe-Two produced in excess of, let's say, twenty million tons is heinous and unforgiveable *unless* the offender purchases Carbon Offsets. You need to disregard the fact that the company which *trades* in Carbon Offsets is owned by Al Gore, okay? It's immaterial. Really. Honest, it is....

Comment from BillT on 2009-06-30

Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:45:55 -0600

Translation: She managed to wade through the cover sheet...

Comment from fdcol63 on 2009-06-30

Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:57:57 -0600

But rest assured ....... Carol Browner has read "significant portions" of the bill. LOL

Comment from BillT on 2009-06-30

Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:27:58 -0600

Cricket, nobody knows for sure what's in the bill -- not only has no one read the entire 1,000+ pages, but, because of last-minute additions and "new language," there are 300 pages of insertions that have yet to be made. The bottom line is, the bill in it's current form not only hasn't been read, but it's technically unreadable.

But they're voting on it anyway. Some wag could have inserted a paragraph mandating that all citizens of Chinese ancestry adopt a Papuan free-tailed fruit bat no later than July 31, 2010, and in 13 months, there'll be a mass incarceration of everybody named Lee -- because, yanno, they disobeyed the *law*...

Comment from Cricket on 2009-06-29

Mon, 29 Jun 2009 18:39:35 -0600

"I heard today that in order to sell your house, you are going to have to have some government chump with a check list, to see that your house is up to EPA standards, window, appliances and so on...anything they don't like, they won't issue you the "permit" to sell your house, until it's fixed. This will be law as soon as Obama signs it, if the senate is stupid enough to pass this fiasco!!!! I haven't looked at it, but apparently it's in the bill!!!!"

Sent to my inbox. Any truthiness to that statement? As if the economy wasn't in a bind as it is. What utter nonsense.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-06-29

Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:27:14 -0600

Ssssshhhh! That's the good stuff. And it's been quiet back there for *weeks*!

Comment from BillT on 2009-06-29

Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:07:53 -0600

Yup. Eclectic *and* ecumenical -- that's us!

Bring up *eccentric* and I'll blab about where you *really* stashed that cask of Amontillado...

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-06-29

Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:38:06 -0600

Heh. Gosh, thanks, Windy! Up until this moment, I never would have guessed a discussion of Cap and Trade would bring the sale of Indulgences and the Reformation into the light and be relevant!

Comment from Windy Wilson on 2009-06-29

Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:41:44 -0600

And the Germans voted for this AFTER they converted to Euros at 1 Mark :1Euro when they agreed to 2 Marks :1 Euro?

Besides, instead of calling them Carbon Credits, or Gutschein, (good shine?) I vote we call them Pixie Points, which has the advantage of alliteration, or Monkey Points, which Eddie Murphy said was what they should call percentage points of the gross in a movie contract. I'd even support this last if it turned out we had to pay Murphy a percent for using a phrase he invented.

I can only assume that Americans support these anti-scientific ideas because they think, "I don't produce any excess Carbon Dioxide (besides my breath, that is", so it won't hurt me if some people pay more for carbon." Just wait until their customers stop buying because of this added major expense.
The thing that really chaps my saddle is that the same people who are advocating selling Carbon Credits criticize the Catholic Church for allowing the sale of indulgences back in the 16th Century.
"Dear Pot, Yes, I am Black, signed Kettle"

Comment from darkriders on 2009-06-29

Mon, 29 Jun 2009 00:51:31 -0600

unfortunately, Bill., most of the Germans here are still sound asleep concerning this. And still voting for the Greens and new Left in now in larger numbers :p (which might be partially explained that by the fact that the SPD and the CDU are also pushing Kyoto and happy to see us joining them in this folly).
A very few of them woke up and took notice when it was learned that after jacking the prices and rejacking the prices to pay for the cost of the "gutscheine" carbon certificates the Power companys hier in Deutschland (which are basically four regional monopolies with some State ownership) were getting almost all their gutscheine for free from the Government. So passing on the cost of nothing to the consumer ought to be nothing, right? Meanwhile most have gone back to sleep or are in a tizzy about how we have destroyed their wonderful economy.
About the only locals I can stomach talking politics with are my old neighbors who remember the War and the Cold War. Most of the younger ones are beyond comprehension.
Sad that we are now going to follow their path in this scheme.
many thanks, I remain at your service,
Gene, a cashier-wight wandering about Patrick-Henry's Village

Comment from jsallison on 2009-06-28

Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:17:59 -0600

Time to get in on the ground floor! After all the hemming and hawing over CO2 is past, it'll be time to start creating profit opportunities with the biggest contributor to 'climate change' that isn't spelled s-u-n. I'm talking water vapor. Do you sweat in the Oklahoma sun in summer? Does it evaporate? Well, if we get in on this early Joe & Jill Public will have to purchase evaporation credits to continue their current habits, and they'll have to purchase them from us! Woohoo! Send your dollar now...

Comment from Cricket on 2009-06-28

Sun, 28 Jun 2009 14:15:17 -0600

I am forming a dummy corporation right now.
The Engineer said something about @ss gas...oh geez...just show up and let Gaia do the rest.

I want me a piece of that. How will AlGore know which companies aren't on the take? I would serioulsy form a subsidiary or some type of holding company to get that money back.

Comment from AW1 Tim on 2009-06-28

Sun, 28 Jun 2009 11:47:02 -0600

BillT,

Roger that. Weather can and will mess things up. I'm jaded a bit, having both lost people I knew due to such things as forgetting to note the highest terrain versus your flight level when IFR, and also having to go in as part of a team to recover remains from accident sites.

respects,

Comment from BillT on 2009-06-28

Sun, 28 Jun 2009 11:28:44 -0600

Personally, I consider such actions as flying into known mountains as proof of Darwin's Law.

I consider this one the result of bad luck. The weather slammed down on him while he was flying a medevac at night -- and that's killed more pilots than you'd believe in *level* terrain.

And this was *before* the use of NVGs became damn-near mandatory for night flight. There are units over here that just plain will not fly unless the ambient light is *just* right. And the terrain, except to the northeast, is *flat*...

Comment from AW1 Tim on 2009-06-28

Sun, 28 Jun 2009 11:08:45 -0600

BillT,

         Complacency is the one factor that exists outside of all other variables, including self-importance and letter extension post surname.... :)

         Personally, I consider such actions as flying into known mountains as proof of Darwin's Law.

         As to the rescinding or nullification of treaties being unconstitutional, when did the constitutionality of anything become a stumbling block for Congress or President? The entire Cap & Trade program, TARP, and the "porkulous bill" are all blatantly unconstitutional, but no one seems to give a bucket of warm spit about that.

Comment from BillT on 2009-06-28

Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:13:57 -0600

Yeah, except subtracting *anything* from a typical pol's IQ will invariably result in an imaginary number.

Speaking of Good Ol' Boys, back in the '80s, I had a mush-mouth Sur'n bitterly-clinging-to-NASCAR bud with a Ph.D. in Astrophysics and four active patents to his credit who ran afoul of a Korean mountain at night. We had two ASWOTC instructors who *badly* underestimated him based solely on his speechification...

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-06-28

Sun, 28 Jun 2009 07:35:36 -0600

C'mon, Bill. You just said a demonstrated knowledgeof Elementary Science would be better...

Everybody knows that our elected officials are smart, most of 'em geniuses (just have to read their bios, exceptin' the Good Ol' Boys® who play the "Aw, shucks, I ain't so smart" schtick) and Know What's Best. Why else would we have elected them? Heh.

You're not taking into account all the variables, needful if you are going to try to make a value-added attack on the subject that will actually affect the outcome...

You forgot the negative modifiers. Practical IQ= IQ - Ego x Political Bubble Factor x Media Bubble Factor²

Comment from BillT on 2009-06-28

Sun, 28 Jun 2009 04:40:14 -0600

International treaties are automatically eternal and part of the US constitution under the constitution.

That didn't stop Jimmeh Cottuh from donating the Panama Canal Zone to the Panamanians -- who, in a burst of international good will, turned over operational authority to the Red Chinese.

A flat out tax would be better.

A demonstrated knowledge of Elementary Science -- even at an eighth grade level -- would be better. Unfortunately, that assumes the average Congresscritter has an IQ larger than my shoe size...

Comment from Argent on 2009-06-28

Sun, 28 Jun 2009 03:04:45 -0600

Sounds a bit like our carbon trading system proposed here.

Fishmugger is right. Products and services prices won't alter much because prices are more determined by what customers will pay not costs. The result will instead be a strong push to cost cut some other way, reduced profitablity and/or corporate collapses. And where do those people go? Why into new jobs created by the vibrant economy of course

I have not read the details of this cap and trade but if as described it will prove a serious distortion the the market. A flat out tax would be better.

Comment from J.T. Wenting on 2009-06-28

Sun, 28 Jun 2009 00:22:37 -0600

" I'm stocking up on stuff, but I am waiting to see what happens in the 2010 elections. The one thing about "Cap & Trade" is it can be overturned by another congress. It is also owned lock, stock and barrel by the Leftists."

2 flaws:
1) you assume there will be elections and that IF they are held the outcome will matter one iota (it won't).
2) as soon as Obama signs Kyoto Cap and Trade will be part of the US constitution and cannot be overturned. International treaties are automatically eternal and part of the US constitution under the constitution.

Companies moving offshore will no doubt be covered by having foreign produced CO2 taxed in the US to importers and distributors (including the cost of transport of the goods to the US).

Comment from AW1 Tim on 2009-06-27

Sat, 27 Jun 2009 21:05:34 -0600

heh,

     No need to collect any brass. All you need is some newsprint and cotton thread. :)

     Also, it's a very "green" solution. No cleaning chemicals, just hot water, clean rags, and some sweet oil to wipe it down with afterwards.

     I wonder about the carbon-tax it will incur, however.......

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-06-27

Sat, 27 Jun 2009 20:26:00 -0600

Tim always believes in old solutions are the best solutions.

Comment from xformed on 2009-06-27

Sat, 27 Jun 2009 19:01:13 -0600

AW1: Not a .58 "alternative?"

Comment from BillT on 2009-06-27

Sat, 27 Jun 2009 14:51:52 -0600

The one thing about "Cap & Trade" is it can be overturned by another congress.

Which should prove interesting -- it'll certainly be a test of principles. Evidently, the original House version was stripped of all the pork before the Senate found it acceptable for its august contemplation. And, after a suitably circumspect time of contemplation, said Senate decided it had insufficient political advantage as it was written, and re-inserted the pork as "new language"....

Comment from AW1 Tim on 2009-06-27

Sat, 27 Jun 2009 14:23:37 -0600

   I'm stocking up on stuff, but I am waiting to see what happens in the 2010 elections. The one thing about "Cap & Trade" is it can be overturned by another congress. It is also owned lock, stock and barrel by the Leftists.

   If it isn't overturned, then it's time to contemplate other responses.

Comment from Fishmugger on 2009-06-27

Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:32:24 -0600

"Company A passes the increased cost of doing business along to the consumer."

Not Necessarily true...the product would have to be vital like water, power or food. If not, Company A will move offshore to any other country and Company A employees will loose their jobs.

All the things Company A employees bought from Company B will be scaled way back because they're out of work...and Company B employees will loose jobs.

So much stuff will not be bought and sold due to so many plant closings, that taxes will not be generated to pay for all the government agencies created to monitor this grand experiment. None of those people will loose their jobs because they work for the government, so our debt will skyrocket.

And...93% of all CO2 is generated naturally. Look it up please, Find out the facts. For starters plants don't generate Oxygen at night...they generate CO2. Then there is decomposition from dead leaves and plants...more CO2....and many other sources not least of which is burping cows, so there goes our steaks but we're going to need milk.

I'm taking my supply of bottled water and my guns and moving to a red state and plant a vegetable garden. The mobs are going to get nasty.