Comments for Torture, continued.

Torture, continued.

Wed, 06 May 2009 06:54:00 -0600

"You can take that entendre in more than one way," he observed in a manner obtuse.I've been letting you all flail at it, but the post has fallen off of most people's radars, probably especially after I broke up the fight on the playground.So of course, *that's* when Cassandra decided to weigh in. Well, I'm not going to waste a good finger-wagging from Cassie, leaving it buried in the comments of a post no one's following any more. No, I'm going to be mean and conduct a bloggerboarding of Cassandra by dragging her comment out into the light of day,...

Comment from Grimmy on 2009-05-08

Fri, 08 May 2009 10:52:39 -0600

On the "groupthink" issue and that insanity of all opinions being co-equal.

There are some issues that are debatable. Those where the facts are not known, for example. In cases where the facts are known, and the pattern of those raising a stink are very overtly established, there's no debate. There's fight. And its a hard fight because it actually does matter. Life and death, bloodshed type matter. This aint about a classroom discussion where we can all agree to disagree and no harm from it. This is about folk letting themselves get turned out as useful idiots for a propaganda campaign that is not even trying to hide itself as anything other than a black propaganda campaign.

There is only one objective for those who started this torture meme. One objective only. That objective is to force the US into a position where it can NOT gain any intel from battlefield captures, or those taken up as hostile operatives. That is the ONLY objective.

Those that let themselves get bent over the bench and played due to the words used or the hyper emotional "testimonies" or the manufactured dissent of those who are born again enemy lovers, are bent over the bench and played. Useful idiots. It does not matter why, or what the useful idiot intends by his usefulness as an idiot. A useful idiot is what he is, regardless of motivation.

Beneath it all is a gross assumption of willful sadism, brutality, undiscipline and otherwise generally bad behavior by our uniformed and non-uniformed personnel involved in this, and, if honest, all other endeavors. There's no good faith in the arguments vomiting up the torture meme. There's no moral high ground in it. In fact, it is exactly the opposite. There is a distinct lack of moral fidelity in an attempt to join in with others in an effort to force the US to castrate its ability to safeguard itself and its citizenry. In most situations, I'd have zero hesitancy to approach such folk as I would any other enemy. Play on the side of the enemy in an effort to further what is only an objective of the enemy is to be enemy. Period. It ain't complicated except in the minds of those who can not pay attention to reality.

This is a subject that is no more open to debate than the issue of whether or not pressing your hand against a hotplate set on high would cause you pain.

Comment from Cricket on 2009-05-07

Thu, 07 May 2009 12:11:46 -0600

Surf's up!

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-05-07

Thu, 07 May 2009 11:10:04 -0600

And I still haven't figured out what your Whatzit is. I need to go back and see if anyone else has.

Darn this having a job thingy, anyway.

Comment from Argent on 2009-05-07

Thu, 07 May 2009 10:56:43 -0600

Lurkers are important to you.

GroupThink is not so simple, it's a balance always present. Always valuable, always dangerous. But it grows like a virus. It needs a strong hand to tone it to reasonable levels and I believe you are a strong hand. Which is why I'm here more often than elsewhere in the conservative landscape.

Oh you well know I deviate far from standard. What a life to be a lightning rod. Perhaps it's fun, perhaps it's tiresome but I can say I am enriched beyond many of your readers. You really don't learn as much from people who are inside the standard.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-05-07

Thu, 07 May 2009 07:23:49 -0600

Argent - our discussions here mirror the angst in general, don't they?

Isn't that itself notable? We're a self-selected group, but there is a rather large commonality of values among us, yet within that context we as a group are conflicted.

That, too, is informative, and in ways that TV soundbites are not.

I never expected to reach a consensus.

But I've learned something out of it - about people, about the issue. That's why I keep coming back to it.

As for the larger issue of groupthink - I've discovered over the last 6 years of hanging the shingle out there it's very difficult, oh, hell, it's impossible, to have a truly fully diverse place where all viewpoints are welcome.

Anything that goes much beyond a standard deviation from the median of the overall group is going to be a lightning rod, and too many people just can't break free from letting their tempers get the best of them when that happens.

Part of it stems from the fact that you've got to have pretty strong opinions to have the courage to toss them out there for people to look at, which means oft times that the discussion is not one of persuading your debate opponent, but rather of convincing the lurkers in the rafters.

And tossing red meat to your claque usually doesn't achieve that, it just makes the lurkers sigh and oft times go away, never to return.

In that respect, people do *me* a disservice when they engage in that level of behavior.

Hence the rules that keep this place calmer than it would be when we go after juicy targets, rather than the easy ones.

One of the reasons I usually don't put my own opinion out up front is that I've found it tends to stifle discussion. I'm more a moderator than a law-giver.

Comment from Argent on 2009-05-06

Wed, 06 May 2009 21:02:25 -0600

John I've given this some thought. I can't really discuss this or many other topics here. I do not play roles and the GroupThink is too strong.

However, perhaps I can help. Why do you keep bringing up this topic of torture? It's been at least 4 times now and each time the flow has been unsatisfactory to you. What precisely are you looking for? Perhaps you should show this to your readers then I think you will find a more useful result.

I can say that it's different to some other topics even the one you related it to of Abortion. You have not brought that topic to our face again and again, but torture you have. It's something specific about torture you want to discuss maybe? It's not the morality positioning as far as I can tell which would be the obvious topic. It's something else. Just ask it directly.

Comment from Boquisucio on 2009-05-06

Wed, 06 May 2009 12:33:25 -0600

BOQ is proud indeed Unkabill. Unlike today's highly engineered and filtered voices, Karen Carpenter had a true voice.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-05-06

Wed, 06 May 2009 11:22:50 -0600

I'm kinda surprised. Didn't your enlisted folk properly train you up?

Of course, I just got out of the way and then collected the medals.

Comment from Statues are Easy... on 2009-05-06

Wed, 06 May 2009 11:15:04 -0600

That was an awesome wielding of "crapweasel", Grimmy.

Comment from Grimmy on 2009-05-06

Wed, 06 May 2009 10:56:31 -0600

One thing I noted as I was reading... "Give the guy permission to use "crapweasel" and he runs with it!"

Call it personal initiative :)

I'm kinda surprised. Didn't your enlisted folk properly train you up?
How do you think Moses's folk started out with 10 easy to understand rules that quickly got turned into huge volumes of dos and do nots?

I am trying to do due diligence in the behave and be nice dept though.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-05-06

Wed, 06 May 2009 10:49:37 -0600

RE: PPS... but the misuse of "with out" vice without, was entirely your fault. The only grammar checker is fully organic.

One thing I noted as I was reading... "Give the guy permission to use "crapweasel" and he runs with it!"

Comment from Statues are Easy... on 2009-05-06

Wed, 06 May 2009 10:39:21 -0600

Grimmy, I've made all those arguments.

There is what we wish the law were, and what it actually says. The mental distress thing is stupid. Vague and ambiguous.

As I said, I happen to agree with you on the question of whether waterboarding is torture. But my opinion is not the law ;p More's the pity!

Comment from Grimmy on 2009-05-06

Wed, 06 May 2009 10:01:26 -0600

Crapweasels have taken to water-boarding each other at various anti-whatever demonstrations. They all survive with out harm, either physical, mental or emotional. They tend to do it wrong, in a way that can be dangerous, but that's because they're idiots.

Crapweasels who were previously briefed on the practices as part of their political office holder duties gave their blessings, yet now they caterwaul and cry for the cameras.

American servicemen and women have it done to them in training. I had it done to me. We all survived it without harm or injury. Hell, we even had a contest to see who could go the longest in best out of three goes. It ain't anywhere near the fright fest that so many try to make it out to be.

The first time is a bit scary, but after that it's simply annoying. It can wear a man's resolve down over time but does not cause permanent harm of any sort.

All this noise is being produced by the usual suspects who manufacture issues based on hysteria and misinformation.

This isn't anything like the Inquisition. This isn't the samey same as the holocaust (regardless of what Sen Dodd says).

Put this issue into proper context. What else has been attempted by the same usual suspects since this meme was invented? How many other efforts have been made to force a castration of our ability to gain humint or even be allowed to detain enemy prisoners?

This is NOT a separate issue. It is part of a pattern. It is part of a very slick black propaganda campaign with a goal aimed at forcing the US into a position where it can no longer wage war against our enemy, regardless of who that enemy happens to be.

This is also not at all about anything even close to approaching actual torture. In that regard, I do disagree with Cassandra. Just because something can be made to sound icky does not make that something an evil or illegal thing. Only appeals at the emotional level designed to invoke hysterical responses create the appearance of wrong regardless of actual fact.

As to "it's illegal so should be prosecuted" meme. Nope. Not even close to true. Everyone in appropriate positions of oversight, both political and judicial, were briefed on the practices and gave their blessings. If it can be revised into being illegal after that, what basis of good faith and confidence can remain for those in uniform on any issue what-so-ever. Why would anyone be stupid enough to continue with a military career when it becomes obvious that the rules can be rewritten and punishment made retroactive at a political whim?

Also, those of you capable of thinking this true, ask yourselves. Where will we be if this propaganda offensive wins? What possible means of gathering intel will our humint gleaners have if they are limited to simply asking and nothing more? You think that's hyperbole? Ask yourself now, what means or methods do our interrogators have now, when simply asking bears no actionable fruit? What is now under attack as means of gathering intel from known enemy combatants? What will be left if that attack wins?

There is no basis in true fact for the hysterical squalling and accusations of torture. The methods under attack by the propaganda campaign do NOT in any way approach the level of torture.

There is a time for debate and a time for fight. Losing track of what time it is happens to be a great way to get caught laying down when it is time to be standing up and taking position on the shield wall.

PS. Did I use crapweasel properly this time?
PPS or PSS or whatever it's supposed to be... any homonyms used improperly are the fault of spell checker.

Comment from Barb on 2009-05-06

Wed, 06 May 2009 08:56:06 -0600

It's not a slide, it's a foil. At least that's what I was raised on back in the good old days at TI. Slides were those funny little film things in cardboard frames.
Cass - you stated it well, I concur. The memos proved to me that the actions in the past should stand as they are, but I think the discussion of what our policy should be going forward is very valid.

Comment from BillT on 2009-05-06

Wed, 06 May 2009 08:52:43 -0600

Nope.

Can't *believe* how I double-lucked on that one! Boq will be proud...

Comment from Statues are Easy... on 2009-05-06

Wed, 06 May 2009 08:44:43 -0600

I see how you are. Oh yes, I see.

You tease me about "baited" and yet leave "I think it not unwise to leave some latitude in the statue" twisting in the wind???

I think I have the definitive definition of torture over at VC. This argument is o-vah...

Comment from BillT on 2009-05-06

Wed, 06 May 2009 08:29:06 -0600

"With bated breath" is the other rendition of, "with breath abated" -- and now that I've brought *rendition* up, Cassie can re-castigate me.

If she can avoid the "come hither" torture-stare...

Comment from NevadaDailySteve on 2009-05-06

Wed, 06 May 2009 08:27:49 -0600

I am sick to death of the torture question. The problem is that with any emotionally loaded issue there are those who refuse to acknowledge there are people with other valid opinions about a subject. They demonize those who don't agree with them. It happens on the right and on the left. It seems to me more of a problem of the left, but that might just be my conservative bias.

I think the problem is that if you define a strong word down so that you can use it against someone you have not strengthened your argument, you have weakened the word you use.

It's like saying that if some jerk leers at a woman it's the same as rape. No. It's offensive, it's wrong and it could get the leerer into hot water but it is not rape. Rape has a specific meaning and to try to stretch it to strenghten a weak case just weakens it further.

As someone said during the campaign, words matter. That's one reason I'm against the 'living Constitution' idea that so many in our judiciary have. There is a method in place to change the Constitution if the people feel it necessary. There is no need to 'interpret' it out of all recognition.

I agree that whatever the current administration thinks about whether a certain technique is torture they should step very carefully when thinking about bringing the former adminstration to the bar of justice, Obama, too will be a former president someday and I'm sure there are those who would have him prosecuted if they could.