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        <title>Comments for The Information Operations Continue</title>
        <description>We&apos;re the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost.  All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT,  and KA 2003-2010</description>
        <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/05/the_information.html</link>
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            <title>The Information Operations Continue</title>
            <description><![CDATA[A subject of some contention around here, the use of WP.&nbsp; Over at Armchair Generalist, too. Since he's a Chem Warfare geek, he's usually worth reading on the subject, and has the further advantage of being a readable lefty!CJTF-101 is continuing the dueling info ops on the subject, with this press release about the Taliban using WP on Coalition Forces.&nbsp; They are a little disingenuous at the end, however, regarding use and purpose.Insurgents continue white phosphorus attacksBAGRAM, Afghanistan (May 19, 2009) - Today, militants continued to attack International Security Assistance Force personnel using white phosphorus munitions. In Gayan District, Paktika...]]></description>
            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/05/the_information.html</link>
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            <pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 07:53:35 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from ry on 2009-05-21</title>
            <description>
                <![CDATA[I&nbsp;don't think there is a win possible there, in IO&nbsp;realm.&nbsp; Like I said, they're already predisposed to discount whatever we say, and not without good reason in some instances(while being total crocs of shiite in others).<br />
<br />
That's a result of 30 years of stuff(like, supporting the Shah and SAVAK) and requires, pulling numbers out of the air, some long period of time, say, 2x as long, to redevelop a 'good name'.&nbsp; It's not just a mil thing either.&nbsp; It's a phenomenon we see with things like the effects of the Peace Corps.&nbsp; Sure, as long as they're on the ground the locals love them.&nbsp; PC leaves, and then the locals go back because of some other action.&nbsp; Same with missionaries.&nbsp; Mormonism sees this a lot.&nbsp; Get thick on the ground and foriegners love 'em.&nbsp; Get thin on the ground and the hatred and calls of cult pop up.<br />
<br />
So, what wins?&nbsp; Persistance.&nbsp; 20 years is too short a time to win anything, imo.&nbsp; Persistnece and the willingness to foot the cost of doing it the right way.&nbsp; Which is bloody and filled with heart ache.&nbsp; But haste makes waste.&nbsp; We gotta get thick on the ground in realms other than Grunts in Injun Country.&nbsp; That's gotta be persistent(thanks a lot, SD hosers).&nbsp; We gotta put a sock in the mouths of the 'we can do whatever/it ain't torture' crowd-----they ain't helping, either, 'cause, as you say loud and often, perception is reality.&nbsp; <br />
<br />
Ultimately, a rebranding.&nbsp; Which means some of us gotta get thicker skins as we own up to what we've done wrong over the last 200 years or so.&nbsp; Be bigger people mostly would go a long way.&nbsp; Context matters, and the interplay of various factors matters too.&nbsp; (there ain't no such thing as a vacuum in social constructs)&nbsp; So, if I had to sum up(fat chance o' that) I'd say we win by:a) accepting the long (and very bloody to us) view, b) developing a persistent soft power side to match our Leviathan(stares at the Int'l relations hosers who opt out of going over seas) c)&nbsp; get thicker skins and bigger consciences, not in the touchy feely way, so we don't keep screwing things up(Casey should've been hung after My Lai, kinda thing, since he was guilty as sin) since interplay is so hard to predict so you ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS walk the straight and narrow. &nbsp;<br />
<br />
Yeah, I know, C is kinda hard.&nbsp; I feel for the Patano's.&nbsp; But what's more important?&nbsp; Winning the war or the good name and career of one man?&nbsp; Tough call.&nbsp; But from where I sit, if tossing Patanos under the bus ends the war faster, well, sorry dude(and your family, and his kids).&nbsp; Life ain't fair.&nbsp; (And, no, I ain't proud I can be so callous. &nbsp; It makes me worry that I can be, actually .) &nbsp;&nbsp; <br />
<br />
ANything short of that is cutting too many corners.&nbsp; Some jobs are just too big for one lifetime to accomplish.&nbsp; Hard for a man to accept that all he is doing is adding one drop to the deluge that will wash it all clean, but that's how it is.&nbsp; <br />
<br />
Persistence.&nbsp; Honor.&nbsp; BEING&nbsp;the good guys instead of simply ASSERTING it. &nbsp;That's the way forward.&nbsp; No slick moves.&nbsp; No 5 year media strategy.&nbsp; We simply become what we claim we are top to bottom, stem to stern.&nbsp; Do THAT&nbsp;long enough and opinion will change.&nbsp; It's just littered with a lot of bodies along the way.&nbsp; <br />]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/05/the_information.html#comment-89024</link>
            <guid>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/05/the_information.html#comment-89024</guid>
            <pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 22:12:35 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-05-20</title>
            <description>
                What does win, Ry?
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/05/the_information.html#comment-88965</link>
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            <pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 21:51:16 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from ry on 2009-05-20</title>
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                <![CDATA[As I see it, we aren't in disagreement over mehod to reach the decision but only in outcome, homey.&nbsp; <br />
<br />
THough, I like the idea of persistent overhead surv. I'm not sure it wins....decisively.&nbsp; There'll always be calls that we faked it.&nbsp; The folks in the middle seem to want to believe any old thing about us(it's safer in the short term if'n they do).&nbsp; I like it, but in the IO&nbsp;realm I'm not sure it wins. &nbsp;<br />]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/05/the_information.html#comment-88964</link>
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            <pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 20:55:30 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-05-20</title>
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                <![CDATA[Shades of Korea and Vietnam, for that matter.<br />
<br />
Some loitering UAS footage might not be a bad idea, too.]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/05/the_information.html#comment-88954</link>
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            <pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 11:26:27 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Cannoneer No. 4 on 2009-05-20</title>
            <description>
                <![CDATA[Strategy Page had a related post 17 May titled <em>Missing The Good Old Days<br />
<blockquote>
But the biggest problem with this incident was the locals lying for money (and to avoid Taliban retribution). Often, when a smart bomb gets dropped in an isolated location (which describes most of Afghanistan), and there is any chance of civilian casualties, the locals immediately make a fuss about seeking to find who was hurt or killed. The village elders insist that outsiders stay away during this trying time. Even the foreign soldiers and Afghan police are put off (after the search for Taliban bodies, documents and equipment is completed). Being good Moslems, they bury the dead before sunset of the same day. The next day, the elders will claim as many civilian dead, killed by smart bombs, as they think they can get away with. Sometimes, additional graves get a dead goat or other animal, so the proper stench permeates the mound of earth. Digging up graves is also against Islamic law, so the elders know the foreign troops have to take their word for it. The elders also know that the foreign troops, depending on nationality, will pay $1,000-$5,000 compensation per dead civilian. Not only is there a big payday, but the Taliban appreciate the bad publicity directed at the foreigners, and usually show their appreciation by cutting this village or valley some slack in the future. <br />
<br />
&nbsp;
</blockquote></em>It is easy to scam Americans.&nbsp; &quot;Civilian casualties&quot; are more than an IO, they're a business.<br />
<br />
It is particularly galling to hear Karzai pontificate on the subject.<br />
<br />
Time to put some indig fingers on the pickle switches and let <em>them</em> take the rap.<br />
<em><br />
</em>]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/05/the_information.html#comment-88953</link>
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            <pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 11:22:11 -0600</pubDate>
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            <title>Comment from Cannoneer No. 4 on 2009-05-20</title>
            <description>
                <![CDATA[FWIW, ABC take -- <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7601482&amp;page=1" rel="nofollow">After Gunfire, U.S., Taliban Swing PR Cudgel</a><br />
<br />
Found that in a Tweet from <a href="http://twitter.com/gregjulian" rel="nofollow">gregjulian</a>, USF-A PAO.]]>
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            <link>http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/05/the_information.html#comment-88950</link>
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            <pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 10:09:06 -0600</pubDate>
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