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  <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2012://1/tag:www.thedonovan.com,2009://1.10779-</id>
  <updated>2012-03-24T15:18:55Z</updated>
  <title>Comments for Castle Argghhh! Procurator (FWD)</title>
  <subtitle>We&apos;re the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost.  All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT,  and KA 2003-2010</subtitle>
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  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2009://1.10779</id>
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    <link rel="service.edit" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/cgi-bin/mt41/mt-atom.cgi/weblog/blog_id=1/entry_id=10779" title="Castle Argghhh! Procurator (FWD)" />
    <published>2009-05-19T13:00:18Z</published>
    <updated>2009-05-19T15:35:24Z</updated>
    <title>Castle Argghhh! Procurator (FWD)</title>
    <summary><![CDATA[As mentioned in an earlier post, Heartless Libertarian is deployed to Afghanistan with the CJTF-82.&nbsp; He's a righteous gun collector in his own right, and we sent him off with a warrant to procure while he was there.&nbsp; While the weapon that is the subject of this note isn't eligible for HL to send back, being a post-1898 rifle, it is indicative of the sorts of communication I&nbsp;hope to have a lot of while HL is off earning his merit badges.Pattern 14 versus M1917Any easy external way or ways to tell them apart?There's one on the wall here, and it's...]]></summary>
    <author>
      <name>The Armorer</name>
      <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    
    <category term="Gun Pics" />
    
    <category term="Gun Pr0n - A Naughty Expose&apos; of the fiddly bits" />
    
    <category term="Rifles" />
    
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com/">
      <![CDATA[As mentioned in an earlier post, Heartless Libertarian is deployed to Afghanistan with the CJTF-82.&nbsp; He's a righteous gun collector in his own right, and we sent him off with a warrant to procure while he was there.&nbsp; While the weapon that is the subject of this note isn't eligible for HL to send back, being a post-1898 rifle, it is indicative of the sorts of communication I&nbsp;hope to have a lot of while HL is off earning his merit badges.<br /><blockquote><div>Pattern 14 versus M1917<br /><br />Any easy external way or ways to tell them apart?<br /><br />There's one on the wall here, and it's mounted high enough up that I'd need a ladder to get a good look, but I know the data plate is hokey. It says both P14 and M1917, lists a bunch of manufacturers, then lists the caliber as .30-06 and mag capacity as 5.<br /><br />Ok, either it's .30-06 with a mag capacity of 6, or .303 and 5.<br /><br />Given where we are, I'd say it's most likely a P14, but I'm trying to be sure.<br /><br />&nbsp;</div></blockquote>Well, if they're hanging on a wall - and you can't reach 'em, that's a bit of a challenge.&nbsp; The Pattern 14 and the M1917 are essentially the same rifle, chambered in different calibers.&nbsp; The Pattern 14 is in .303 British, and was produced in the&nbsp;US for Great Britain during WWI.&nbsp; The M1917 is chambered for 30.06, and was produced for US forces during WWI.&nbsp; While the Springfield M1903 is the iconic rifle of the WWI Doughboy, he was far more likely to have carried a M1917 than a M1903, because many more M1917s were produced during the war itself.&nbsp; The rifle soldiered on into WWII, when we used them in training and sent more over to Great Britain (which had sold off theirs between the wars) for issue to the Home Guard.&nbsp; You'll also run into a lot of these rifles that have been sporterized, as the action is immensely strong and smooth, and lends itself to many different barrels and chamberings.<br /><br />So, if the rifle is hanging on a wall out of reach - then the points of comparison are the&nbsp;stocks.<br /><br />Quickest and simplest - AFAIK, all <a href="http://www.fototime.com/A1AC908028AF9D2/orig.jpg">Pattern 14s have unit disks inletted into the butt</a> - or at least the inletting for the disk.&nbsp; US M1917s do not.&nbsp; In all the linked photos, the Pattern 14 is the upper rifle.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.fototime.com/6330890B8682BFB/orig.jpg">Grasping grooves </a>- Early Pattern 14 rifles&nbsp;had 4 backward-slanting short, diagonal grooves.&nbsp; Those rifles also do not&nbsp;have recoil bolts under the receiver.&nbsp; You also find Pattern 14s with a single horizontal groove&nbsp;or none at all. None at all is more common in my experience. All US rifles have a single long horizontal groove.<br /><br />Volley-fire sights. I'm assuming it's hanging bolt-handle out (muzzle to the viewer's right). Look at the forward barrel band, where the sling swivel is - come back towards the receiver about two finger widths. If it looks like there's a bolt there, that stock has, or had, a volley fire sight, which would make it a Pattern 14.&nbsp; AFAIK, all Pattern 14 stocks were made to mount the volley fire sights.<br /><br />The last thing, and probably too hard to tell from where you say the rifle is hanging, <a href="http://www.fototime.com/A810ED8379E70CE/orig.jpg">but the stock recoil bolt under the receiver - on a Pattern 14 it looks like a smooth disk, on the M1917, it looks like it's a bolt requiring a special driver</a>, i.e., it looks like it would be tightened by a flat-tip screwdriver that has the center of the blade ground out to make two tines of a fork. There's a technical term for that, but since I haven't finished my first cup of coffee, it stubbornly refuses to kick loose from memory.<br /><br />Of course, you can put a M1917 action in a Pattern 14 stock and vice-versa, but absent getting your hands on the rifle, those are the easiest cues you have to work with.]]>
      
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  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2009://1.10779-comment:88939</id>
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    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-05-19</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh!</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        Gaijin, if you&apos;re over playing in a sandbox... tell us your stories!
    </content>
    <published>2009-05-19T18:22:18Z</published>
    <updated>2009-05-19T18:22:18Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2009://1.10779-comment:88935</id>
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    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-05-19</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh!</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        <![CDATA[Spanner!&nbsp; That's the bleepin' word!]]>
    </content>
    <published>2009-05-19T16:15:51Z</published>
    <updated>2009-05-19T16:15:51Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2009://1.10779-comment:88934</id>
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    <title>Comment from Neffi on 2009-05-19</title>
    <author>
        <name>Neffi</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        Spanner-bolt...
    </content>
    <published>2009-05-19T16:12:12Z</published>
    <updated>2009-05-19T16:12:12Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2009://1.10779-comment:88933</id>
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    <title>Comment from Old Gaijiin on 2009-05-19</title>
    <author>
        <name>Old Gaijiin</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        Hey - I got a ladder. I&apos;m back in the dust again as well, though we had a sprinkle today.
    </content>
    <published>2009-05-19T16:01:01Z</published>
    <updated>2009-05-19T16:01:01Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2009://1.10779-comment:88930</id>
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    <title>Comment from Disgruntled Major on 2009-05-19</title>
    <author>
        <name>Disgruntled Major</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[Yup...it's a Pattern 14.&nbsp; Disk and volleysight missing, but it's evident where they go.]]>
    </content>
    <published>2009-05-19T15:12:49Z</published>
    <updated>2009-05-19T15:12:49Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
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