Comments for Up, Up, and Out - my turn to whack the Paul Kane piñata

Up, Up, and Out - my turn to whack the Paul Kane piñata

Thu, 23 Apr 2009 07:42:01 -0600

Bill and Dusty have whacked at it quite a bit already, maybe I'll be the one who knocks the candy loose.I decided to take a different approach - I emailed out to the Old Soldier network, and solicited the views of men who'd commanded in war from Korea through OEF/OIF, from company-level to brigade level, from peace time to peace keeping to major combat operations, conventional and unconventional. Men who'd commanded infantry, armor, aviation and artillery. I also asked one service support guy, but he declined to participate.Some were willing to be attributed and some weren't, so what follows is a...

Comment from Attila of Argghhh! on 2009-04-23

Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:50:04 -0600

lvncenturion,

I stand by my remarks as well. When you say the Air Force doesn't care and don't qualify it like you just tried to do, you tar everyone who wears the blue uniform with the same brush. Moreover, I know you didn't intend it, but by lauding one group of flyers in the 40s you inadvertently denigrated those who, for example, spent years in camps in Hanoi after going against the most concentrated anti-aircraft system ever devised...and that dwarfed anything the Germans ever conceived...in 50s technology airplanes, under Rules of Engagement that should have had the political establishment indicted and tried. And the sons and daughters of those heroes fly the skies of Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, etc., today. The warriors are still there and they spend lots of time WAAAAY behind enemy lines...tonight.

I'm glad you appreciate some of them even as you belittle the institution as a whole. But this is something we are used to.

Is there plenty wrong with the USAF? You betcha! But the sneer doesn't become you and I'll call you on it every time you try. It was my job as a Corps ALO then and it's my job as a retired milblogger now.

For your service, I salute you and I'd buy a round any time. Our Army is the best the human race has ever produced and the Air Force is populated from the same stock, as are sailors and Marines. Each, in their services, tries to do what they think is best for the country, despite what you may think. Are there aviation bigots out there? Yep. There are hundreds of idiots at ACC HQ alone that need to be taken out and slapped. Don't even get me started on the Pentagon. However, comma, are there Cav, Armor, Arty and straight-leg Infantry boneheads and bigots out there? Hmmm? And do they define the Army in my eyes? You tell me...but don't piss on my "Boys in Blue" and tell me it's raining. Fair enough?

Now, forgive me for not writing further this PM but I have a big plane to catch in about 5 hours (and have a really good seat up front, too) and I need to bag a few ZZZZs.

Cheers! (Really)

Comment from ry on 2009-04-23

Thu, 23 Apr 2009 21:12:45 -0600

A lot said that amounts to little.

What *is* the fight we should be setting up for? Does strategic values the AF attains by being either the fighter mafia or the bomber mafia matter? Or is it just a bunch of crap? I, for one, though I'm more loyal to the USN than any other Service, say, "Yes, indeedee, they do."

What would happen if we did give it over to the Army? Could it be that they would spend all their efforts on CAS while letting AirDom go, betting someone else(Navy) will pick it up?

Yeah, the current set up isn't perfect. Groundpounders are never happy with how fast(or lack of fast) support gets to them. 5 years ago it was complaints about how long it took lanyard pullers to get off their duffs. That's not saying that there isn't a problem, but seeing the context.

Getting rid of the AF is a DUMB idea. They may need to be brought kicking and screaming to take up other capabilities in earnest, at the cost of dominance in others, but that's not the same thing as getting rid of it. There's value in how the AF sees things and woud conduct and design a war plan. That would be lost entirely, and to our detriment as well.

That said, maybe we could get there by doing redesigns of the F-15 and F-16 instead of going F-35/22. Giving them the benefits of new materials and the like. Most of the work is already done, so it's bound to be cheaper than either the Lightning Dos or the Raptor. Which would leave more money for an A-10 replacement.

But Grunts are never happy. It's a soldiers' right to $itch, neh?

Comment from lvncenturion on 2009-04-23

Thu, 23 Apr 2009 20:51:27 -0600

A few comments from the foxhole of the "ignorant oaf":

First, I stand by my remarks. If the Air Force wants to be relevant into the future, and they need to be, then they should listen to those they pretend to support. As one who has enjoyed Air Force support on the borders of both Cambodia and Laos where no others dared to tread, I can attest to the value of brave pilots and their superb flying machines. I would not be writing these words otherwise.

But, the Air Force of today is not the Air Force of that era or the 8th Air Force of my father-in-laws era when he was piloting B-24's and B-17's over Festung Europa. Something has gone wrong, and while I cannot pretend to know all of the causes, I do detect the symptoms. Technophilia is a rampant American disease and it runs rampant amongst the Boys in Blue. Mastery of the machine is essential, of course, otherwise you become a greasy spot on the landscape. But, the institution must remember its mission and its purpose. Those who strap themselves into modern combat aircraft understand this and I do not point fingers in their direction. But, the Air Force as an institution does not reflect the attitude and dedication of its indivdual pilots. It just doesn't. I love to understand why, and stand ready to be enlightened.

Ignorant Oaf I may be, but I do know that I owe my life to pilots who were willing to risk theirs flying low level at low speed in the midst of radar directed AA fire to put ordnance practically in my rucksack so that I could disengage my recon team and live to fight another day. My cousin and his F-4G along with his backseater became one with the Canadian countryside one fateful day that was meant to be just another training exercise. My father-in-law at 90 is one of the few left who lifted off the Anglian countryside, assembled, and led their squadrons and groups into the belly of the beast. I understand, do you?

Comment from Natches Largo on 2009-04-23

Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:59:45 -0600

Many of you know me, but I cannot say everything that I want to say openly, and I will not say in hiding what I cannot say in the open. I know that's convoluted, but it basically means I won't say behind a fake name things I would be afraid or bound by duty not to say behind my real name.

That said, since my father always told me that if I can't say something positive, to say nothing, I'll just say this about my 7 years experience with and opinions of the Air Force: Go Army!

P.S. Given my experiences with quite a few active and retired mid-range AF Officers, I am absolutely truly afraid to be openly honest about anything negative. I have been lied to and about by military people I work for, and the guy in charge here told me to my face just two weeks ago that the truth doesn't matter. My new motto: Form over substance, go along to get along, don't trust anyone!

Comment from Grumpy on 2009-04-23

Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:20:40 -0600

John, As I look at what you are writing, you are talking about a very complex situation. But you and your group fail to bring into the discussion a question that requires an answer. The question is this, what is the overall context of the issue for all branches, not just the Air Force? We have two balanced views of warfare, "COIN" *AND* "FULL SPECTRUM". We live in this complex world and we need everybody at the table. Yes, we need the "warfighter" at the table. While we are at the table, we all need to talk about this Nation. Somewhere, in our thinking, we have deluded ourselves into the idea, "Freedom is Free". No, Dusty, I'm not talking about a draft, I came from that era. I'm talking about the teacher, who does their job well. The same is true for public safety, the trades, the professions, the geeks and the military, all of these people are paying the debt of freedom. There is a special group of people at this table, they are the character builders for the potential warfighter. They have one thing in common, they know they'll be required to let go. They are people like parents, teachers, coaches, friends and extended family members. But there is one very special warfighter, in their own right, they command the respect they truly deserve, the warfighter's spouse and family. Lastly, John, I want you to take a quick glance at the warfighter and take a mind's eye snapshot. Now you know the realm or region of the "Battle Space", Is he trained to fight in that particular "Battle Space"? Now, if we change the region, is it still true? Now, if change the realm, is it still true? This is the reason for "Full-Spectrum Warfare".

We need to fight smarter and not harder.

Politicians need to understand from all sides, both Houses, Parties and Branches, that we cannot solve everything.

As I look this, I see you writing from a limited group, command. As an enlisted Airman, we used the call the whole group, " A Major Pain in the Brass". The truth was they were all good people. We were just doing the things they couldn't do.

My *thanks and appreciation* to *all of you* and for your *courage* to put ideas out there for *old fools like me*.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-04-23

Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:48:51 -0600

You're never happy, Dusty. Always want the whole enchilada...

Comment from Attila of Argghhh! on 2009-04-23

Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:46:30 -0600

Reluctantly...

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-04-23

Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:44:41 -0600

Snerk. I *knew* Dusty would get exercised.

But, dude - they all want to *keep* you!

Comment from Attila of Argghhh! on 2009-04-23

Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:37:09 -0600

The Air Force certainly has a serious problem that they do not wish to address. They are not part of the present fight and have been working to marginalize themselves since before Vietnam when they decided that strategic airpower was their stock in trade and that support to ground forces was beneath their dignity. That's pretty much the standard Army Colonel line in my experience. Not all guys think like that but when they're frustrated, they either accuse you of cowardice (V Corps CoS) or lack of patriotism, i.e., all we care about is ourselves and screw the Army. True, the SAC mafia ruled before Vietnam but the fighter mafia took over and has run the place since this guy was probably a Captain. The "beneath their dignity" snark is pretty much what I expect from a knuckle-dragging ground pounder and I file it under "ignorant oaf."
They paid it lip service for years, failed to develop the airplanes, weapons systems, and command and control construct necessary to fight in a ground centric environment. I don't know what he means by a "ground-centric environment" unless he's talking about fighting on land. As far as the failure to develop jets and systems to fight in that environment, I'd refer him to A-10s, F-16s, F-4Gs, F-15Es, Predators with Hellfire, Mavericks, LGBs and lots of other things that, um, are designed to go after ground targets. The frustration with C2 is a two-way street...the USAF has a huge array of combat systems and combat power that when properly orchestrated and understood makes the ARMY ground commander's life a lot more pleasant. All BOTH sides have to do is make a little effort in understanding and thereby fully exploiting each other's strengths ands weaknesses. I offer him an enthusiastic "Amen!" if he says the USAF is as much to blame for not making the effort to understand the Army's side of the story but I saw a lot of eagerness to do so on the part of younger leaders when I was departing the service...and I saw it on the Army's side, too. That said, the latest backslide I can point to was in Afghanistan in the opening phases of the War there when a major operation went south because the Air Force wasn't even told about it until a few hours prior to departing the LD. Frankly, I fault BOTH the USAF support team embedded with the Army AND the Army commander for not rolling the air guys into his plan from the get-go. Their inflexible ATO process ensures that ground commanders will not have the air support that they need when they need it. To use a technical term, Bullshit. The ATO is a lot more flexible than you might think. Let me translate, i.e., what I hear when guys make the above statement, "I don't understand it, I don't want to understand it and because I won't, I say you're inflexible. So there." Fine. Whatever. Come get me when you are ready to fight a Joint fight. The Air Force doesn’t care. Their ridiculous stance on commissioned officers piloting anything that flies, including UAVs is untenable, you simply do not need that level of talent to provide competent human oversight of these automated machines. Arrogance is a hard habit to break and if the Air Force doesn’t break it, they will find themselves in a fix, and the country will be harmed as well. Wow. And you're calling ME arrogant? The old "unpatriotic" canard--we "don't care," you know better how to man our systems than we do, yada, yada, yada. You don't want to know some of the prejudices many blue-suiters hold about Army officers. They are totally unfair and dispicable, but they came from somewhere. Just knock off the "they don't care" nonsense, OK? Makes you look stupid.