We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2010 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html Sat, 24 Mar 2012 15:20:22 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2012 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html Tue, 14 Apr 2009 07:21:53 -0600
The reason I said what I said on the blog wasn't aimed so much at you, but at the lurkers and visitors and googlers.

The post will be up on the web for years, possibly.  And italians will google in here. 

And they'll know that we have some greater understanding around here of their roles and sacrifices, wins and losses, than your simple comment, left unanswered, would indicate.  Many times, the discussions in comment threads are really aimed at the lurkers, or tweaked for those who show up months later, when the comments are closed to keep spam down.

I was just being polite to guests yet unmet.

You'd be surprised how many of them (with their own stereotypes about us) are touched that we have the faintest clue.

Don't let me in /pedantic mode scare you away!]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87411 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87411 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 07:11:43 -0600 ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87406 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87406 Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:48:00 -0600 Dear John of Argghhh!

I guess I should have typed in the sarcasm disclaimer.

I was only kidding. I'm sorry for any offense caused.

I've spent some time in the Emilia-Romagna region of Italy. The Italian solders, partisans and plain old citizens fought suffered and died against the Nazis. I stayed in the village of Villa Minozzo for some time and was told by some old citizens, with tears in their eyes, how the Germans hung people from the trees on the main street.
 
I also met some present day Italian troops in Bologna. They were as tough as nails.
]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87405 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87405 Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:41:35 -0600
John's correct.

The soldiers fought well. Much of the problems came from old military doctrine that didn't keep pace with modern weaponry, as well as senior officers that were well past their prime and deeply entrenched in their mindset into the mold of their fathers' and/or great grandfathers' war(s).

Specific to the Italians of WW2, insanely stupid political ideology and officers selected more for party loyalty than military/command ability added to the issue.
The best soldiers in the history of mankind wouldn't have done much better under such consistently incompetent leadership.

The Southern Front in Europe during WW1 was extremely bloody. The terrain in which it was fought was as much a threat to life as the fighting itself. There were units that broke and mutinied there, just as there were on the Western Front. The amazing thing is that there were so few to do such on both fronts.


Mr. Argghhh!

Thank you for these whatziss things. I'm one of those that get sucked in to trying to figure them out and learn much by the searching for answers.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87391 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87391 Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:01:42 -0600
The failure wasn't at the level of the soldier.

It was his officers and their political masters.

Poor troops = bad officers and/or crappy politicians.

If you think otherwise, I'll aver you don't have a clue on the subject.

As I've said often - wars are won at the small unit level.  They can be lost at any level.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87379 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87379 Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:32:24 -0600 ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87373 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87373 Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:02:07 -0600 Yes, and IIRC, the casualties due to cold and exposure alone in the mountain campaigns was considerable as conditions were deplorable due to the state of inclement wx uniform technology--yet the troops persevered with apparently relatively high morale. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87360 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87360 Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:21:17 -0600 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87348 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87348 Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:18:27 -0600 "I'll show you how an Italian dies!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabrizio_Quattrocchi]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87345 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87345 Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:33:10 -0600
Many of his officers, especially in WWII, less so. 

Even in WWII, the Brits *hated* running up against Italian artillery units - the Eyetie Redlegs stood to their guns and would duke it out with anyone in a direct fire battle and died hard.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87344 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87344 Wed, 15 Apr 2009 07:54:08 -0600 An Italian machine gun,

Never fired and only been dropped once!]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87336 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87336 Wed, 15 Apr 2009 06:57:33 -0600 ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87329 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87329 Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:40:58 -0600
So, a nice Nabiolo or Chianti anyone?
]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87322 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87322 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:10:15 -0600 HUZZAHHH!

Once Tom posted his answer, I immediately went to that page, and all its associated links.  As language is no barrier, I REALY am enjoying it.

Thanks Tom.

]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87276 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87276 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:11:58 -0600 ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87272 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87272 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:48:21 -0600 Oh yeah, it's black.

Evil.  Pure Evil.
]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87266 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87266 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:00:00 -0600 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87265 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87265 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:33:59 -0600 It was was loaded by metal feed strips of 25 rounds each...

Hah! So my Eyetalian MilSpeak isn't that rusty after all!

]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87264 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2009/04/the_whatziss_an_3.html#comment-87264 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:27:15 -0600