Comments for How long until the usual suspects...

How long until the usual suspects...

2009-04-09T04:35:04Z

...decry the dangerous actions of the crew? Probably along the lines of "They have just made it more dangerous for the next ship and the pirates will be angry and violent."

April 08, 2009
Associated Press

WASHINGTON - A U.S. official says the crew of an American-flagged vessel hijacked off the coast of Somalia has retaken control of the ship and has one pirate in custody.

The official said the status of the other pirates is unknown but they were reported to "be in the water." The official spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter.

The shipping company, Maersk, has scheduled a noon press conference in Norfolk, Va.

Read the rest here.

Good on ya fellas. "In the water..." I like that.

Comment from Maggie on 2009-04-12

2009-04-12T15:13:22Z

Josh the point of the anology is that in order to be effective you need a multi-pronged approach to the problem. But then, I think you know that.

It is viscerally satisfying to smash and burn. I understand that. But it's a waste of time and money unless you have a plan to prevent future attacks.

I want CAPT Phillips back, alive. I place great value on a single human life. CAPT Phillips does too because he deliberately placed himself in that position to save his crew.

If smashing them would gaurentee CAPT Phillips safe return I would be all for it. But it is risky. The French have shown us that.

If smashing them would stop future attacks I would be all for it. But it won't. The French have shown us that too.

We need to change the whole dynamic in that area, which means enforcing all the laws of the sea (and no this is not to advocate LOST, I am not a fan). We need to be fair to all the parties involved. Somalia is a failed state where well over half the population is illiterate and starving. We have to step up and take a mature stand. Yes there should be punishment, but it should be measured. this isn't Israel and the Palestinians.

If we pull back and act rationally and not out of wrath, we can actually have a positive outcome here. But if we just start playing "whack a mole" the problem will not be solved.

Comment from Josh on 2009-04-11

2009-04-12T00:55:29Z

The problem with the cockroach analogy is that cockroaches aren't people and the pirates are.

When you step on a cockroach or lay down poison traps, you're not doing it because the roaches' actions are wrong or because you need to punish them. You don't condemn bugs for being bugs, they're not responsible for their actions. You just kill them because that's the most convenient way to get rid of them. These pirates are people who consciously chose to be criminals and they are responsible for their actions.

Comment from LittleRed1 on 2009-04-11

2009-04-11T23:37:48Z

Add in the probability that the ransom monies collected go to finance the Al-Quaeda allied groups in Somalia in their fight against other clans, the Kenyans and the Ethiopians, and it's a very effective racket. Trash dumping (yes, too mild, I know) and overfishing aside, there are other complications that suggest an application of firepower may well be necessary sooner or later.
I'd be curious to find out if the Somali men from Minnesota are connected to the clans that practice piracy, or if they are only involved in land warfare.

Comment from Justthisguy on 2009-04-11

2009-04-11T20:33:52Z

Umm, make yer ships obviously defensible enough that they don't try? And if they do try, and you catch'em, well, public cervical traction?

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-04-11

2009-04-11T14:32:46Z

Josh - I'll be back for you. - Be afraid, Josh. Be very afraid.

I'll toss my hat in this ring.

1. I think the fact the pirates are converging (if that's still true) on the hostage drama with their other ships... well, that's an opportunity, not a problem. It's potentially a problem for Captain Phillips, certainly, but it's an opportunity for the international forces present, as well. Risk goes with the territory.

2. I'm sympathetic to Maggie's position. We alone, given other committments and current situations, may not have the resources to deal with the underlying causes, but ignoring them completely is to continue to treat the symptoms, not the cause. It is exactly the approach gun-banners use - treat the symptom, not the cause. Then wonder why the underlying issue doesn't go away. We can at least exert oursevles diplomatically to try to remediate and ameliorate the conditions that make piracy seem a good option - included in that is to make it riskier and less profitable, but finding some way to establish some rule of law in the region would be useful. For internal *and* external actors. Hang the illegal dumpers from the same yardarms the pirates dangle from.

3. It may not be doable, and sharp pointy suppression may end up being the only tool we have. But grown-ups will progress from simple "Hulk Smash!" solutions to more full-spectrum solutions if they're within the realm of possibility.

And clearly, having tried and failed in Somalia before, we know it's a tough nut. But the fact that it's a running sore should be impetus to try other methods to solve it.

And those measures may needs be kinetic, but just like surgery is not the only option for cancer, so too the point of the sword is probably not the only option for piracy.

Comment from Maggie on 2009-04-11

2009-04-11T14:07:56Z

Casey - I am saying you will never be rid of all gangbangers until you solve the problems from which it grows. That does not condone or excuse gangbangers, it just puts the actions in context.

I'm also saying that you don't need to care, but you aren't going to solve the problem unless you acknowledge that it's bigger than catching a couple of people out in the water.

Disclaimer: I am not equating black/poor/illiterate people with cockroaches. This is just an example.

That said - If you saw roaches in a dirty apartment and you slammed, whacked, sprayed, bombed them to your heart's content.....would you solve the problem?

No, the United States did not actively participate in the dumping or the fishing, but come on! Would you excuse any other authority figure who witnessed a crime and let it go? Well that's what we are saying in the Horn of Africa. We are patrolling and attempting to enforce an internationally agreed upon rule set....all the while knowing our allies have been violating those rule sets. You can't have it both ways. You can't say "We didn't hurt you, we just stood by silently." and expect anything from them.

I can't believe that anyone doesn't see it.

Josh - I'll be back for you. I have to go shower and dress and take my sister to drop off her car for servicing.

Comment from Josh on 2009-04-11

2009-04-11T09:06:12Z

Maggie -

Are you saying somehow that the United States collectively conspired to overfish and pollute Somalia's coastal waters? I'm not talking about just one American corporation, but rather the whole populace and government of the United States.

Or are you saying that America, as a world power, was responsible for keeping Somalia's waters pristine, and for failing that, our entire civilian maritime population is subject to theft and murder?

Comment from Casey on 2009-04-10

2009-04-11T04:56:42Z

Maggie, to be honest, I don't give a fat rat's rear end. As far as I know, the United States is responsible for neither the dumping (first I've heard of this issue) nor over-fishing near that country. Not only that, does the fact that a ship flying under the flag of country "X" is thereby fair game, even if they had nothing to do with the issues you claim?

Sorry, not buying it. That's about the same level as (say) claiming that a 16-year-old gangbanger is justified in knocking over a liquor store, or mugging people, because his mom got knocked up at 15, his baby-daddy is a pusher, and society neglected him.

...Ok. The current administration probably would say that, but they're idiots anyway. {/snerk}

The only side of the story I need to know about is that a cluster of barbarians are committing piracy on the high seas. Why they do so is irrelevant.

Comment from Maggie on 2009-04-10

2009-04-11T04:28:01Z

No Josh, I am saying we can't leave human beings in stinking cesspools and then get all hoity-toity about how they handle it. You can't let them sit and rot and then be all shocked and affronted when they start to take the law into their own hands. That *is* how this started. We knew about the illegal dumping. We knew about the illegal fishing. For pity's sake that Thai/Indian trawler that was hijacked last year was most likely illegal fisherman, not innocent bystanders. You can't allow all that injustice and then say to these people - "Oh wait, *our* people are innocent and you can't touch them." Or better yet........."Fear us."

You know Josh, that's not what American might is supposed to be about. Yes, we are the greatest military power on the face of the earth. But we are also supposed to be the most just. We are also supposed to be the greatest force for good in the history of mankind.

I am not condoning piracy.

I am not questioning the awesome power of the United States Navy.

I am saying some people need to get off their high horse in regard to the matter of piracy. There are two sides to every story. This piracy didn't come out of a vacuum. Yes, CAPT Phillips needs to be rescued. Yes, this particular episode needs a quick resolution. But it is just that.....an episode......an episode in a much larger story.

For the rest of America that is now watching because of CAPT Phillips, this is a teaching moment. We shouldn't waste it in swagger and bluster.

The Maersk Alabama is not the first, nor will it be the last ship captured. Most people don't even know that up until the French took back that yacht today.....there were 14 other flipping ships under Somali pirate control to my knowledge.

Let's get past this myopic discussion (as much as I pray for CAPT Phillips safe return) and look at the bigger picture and come up with a solution that recognizes there are no angels and there are no devils.

Comment from Josh on 2009-04-10

2009-04-10T21:01:38Z

Maggie -

Are you saying that this piracy is some sort of impassioned protest against the injustices of the world by the Somali people?

I don't buy that for a second.

Comment from Maggie on 2009-04-10

2009-04-10T15:32:49Z

Or maybe we should send about 30 Oliver Hazard Perrys and 20 Arleigh Burkes to the area and start putting the fear of god -- no, that's not right, the fear of the United States Navy -- in these people.

All I have to say about that Josh is -
If the so-called civilized world is going to turn their back on Somalia; if they are going to leave Somalis victim of the illegal dumping of medical and possibly nuclear waste; if they are going to leave them vulnerable to other, more powerful countries violating their territorial waters after they've overfished their own....and expect them to just take....but respect some sort of Pax Americana......
as Chief Brody said "You're gonna to need a bigger boat,"

Comment from Cannoneer No. 4 on 2009-04-09

2009-04-09T21:57:49Z

Homeland Security just sent out a memo specifying that Somali pirates are to be referred to as "seafaring freelance wealth redistributors."

Instead of hanging them from the yard arm, bring them back to Washington to serve as cadre for the Potomac Flotilla of the Democratische Partei Kraftfahrkorps Motorbootseinheiten Civilian National Security Force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded as the Coast Guard and Navy.

Comment from Josh on 2009-04-09

2009-04-09T17:08:09Z

While I understand the crew was expecting to be clear of the pirate water being outside the normal AO and several hundred miles off the coast. And I understand the trouble with arming these vessels with guns. But why do ships not have a large stash of heavy tossable items, seeing as a vessel like this sits 40-50 feet above the water a few lengths of pipe/rebar/etc should disable the puny chase boats used by the criminals.

They could always mount a huge bubbling cauldron of molten lead on hinges welded to the gunwales...

Comment from Josh on 2009-04-09

2009-04-09T17:04:46Z

Ahh, my dear I think every Sailor knows what they *want* to do with a pirate. But that's not always the smartest route. What the Navy is doing now - standing by, negotiating, keeping things calm, putting a team aboard the Maersk Alabama so they can continue their journey - that is what should be done.

I don't know. Maybe.

Or maybe we should send about 30 Oliver Hazard Perrys and 20 Arleigh Burkes to the area and start putting the fear of god -- no, that's not right, the fear of the United States Navy -- in these people. After the last time the Navy did that, didn't we have about two centuries without much serious trouble from pirates? Maybe if we do it again, we'll be okay until the 23rd century. And at that point, Captain Picard can take care of business.

Comment from Dave on 2009-04-09

2009-04-09T17:03:47Z

Comment from Maggie on 2009-04-09

2009-04-09T16:35:45Z

Every Navy man and now woman knows what to do with a pirate.

Comment from Old QM3 on 2009-04-09

2009-04-09T05:25:12Z

Every Navy man and now woman knows what to do with a pirate. It is just the PC crowd in in the government that is too gutless to let them do it.

Comment from Josh on 2009-04-08

2009-04-09T04:53:32Z

Probably lots of crappy, cowardly, moral relativist, politically correct reasons why we don't. Also the fact that, up until now, they had not encountered American ships (unless I missed a report on such?) And the U.S.N. doesn't necessarily protect the world's shipping - just America's.

Comment from Casey on 2009-04-08

2009-04-09T03:27:48Z

Ok, I'll play the (dumb) straight man here, and ask: why don't we just hunt these bastiches down?

Yes, I know, technically that's a violation of Somali sovereignty, but considering that there isn't really a legitimate sovereign government in existence there, why honor an absurd fiction?

Comment from steve cpo usnr ret on 2009-04-08

2009-04-08T23:23:45Z

Over the side with them. Catch up on the ethics, etc., later.

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2009-04-08T21:22:05Z

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Comment from KCSteve on 2009-04-08

2009-04-08T20:55:28Z

I've been wondering if there's a treaty we signed way back when that allows our ships to be armed if they are in pirate waters.

That would definitely cause some consternation.

Comment from Saker on 2009-04-08

2009-04-08T20:07:11Z

The third mate makes me smile: "We're really busy right now, but you can call back in an hour or two."

I hope they get their crewman back...

Comment from Maggie on 2009-04-08

2009-04-08T20:00:45Z

The USS Bainbridge DDG-96 is on the way to wrap this up and get CAPT Phillips back. Unless the Somalis decide the food is enough of a bribe. I think that's a very appropriate ship to handle this. After all Bainbridge was a merchant mariner himself before his service in the US Navy and CO of USS Constitution during the War of 1812.

Comment from JimC on 2009-04-08

2009-04-08T19:52:58Z

O.K. Let's ask the questions -- Was this a Q ship? Were some of the too numerous crew SEALS or Blackwater baddies? Why wasn't a U.S. Navy warship, at least, just over the horizon? Why weren't FA-18's nearby to blow the baddies out of the water? just askin'.

Comment from Josh on 2009-04-08

2009-04-08T19:49:51Z

When I heard the news it was like "hummm, didn't we do the whole 'kick the pirates butt' thing a while back?"

Threads wanders off humming '.....to the shores of Tripoli...."

Apparently pirates have short memories...they forget the lessons of 200 years ago.

Oh well, that's a better record than most criminals.

Comment from Karla (threadbndr) on 2009-04-08

2009-04-08T19:28:43Z

When I heard the news it was like "hummm, didn't we do the whole 'kick the pirates butt' thing a while back?"

Threads wanders off humming '.....to the shores of Tripoli...."

Comment from fdcol63 on 2009-04-08

2009-04-08T19:12:00Z

Excellent work! I hope these are shark-infested waters, and that their guest is being "kindly asked" to provide any and all helpful information on his other friends on shore.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-04-08

2009-04-08T18:35:23Z

Chuck - a Q-ship, then, if probably unintentionally so. Good.

Comment from Chuck Simmins on 2009-04-08

2009-04-08T17:52:57Z

This is one of the ships that the Navy uses for contract work. I suspect the sailors are not your average Bengali or Filipino sailors.

Comment from Chris H. on 2009-04-08

2009-04-08T17:28:40Z

Go maritime sheepdogs...pour encourager les autres.

r/
Chris

Comment from Josh on 2009-04-08

2009-04-08T17:15:07Z

Huzzah!

Comment from Saker on 2009-04-08

2009-04-08T16:46:03Z

This absolutely makes my day. I have been following the pirates escapades for months, and I love it when they get their butts kicked. It doesnt happen often enough.

Also, I am guilty of a wee bit of national pride, since I believe that was the first U.S. flagged ship that they have attacked. :)