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Pouring avgas on the VA dust-up fire.

By Bill on March 19, 2009 | | Comments (43)
Reference the VA dustup, the following was posted by a fellow VHPA member on our VietVet forum:
During a group session today the subject of VA Disability Benefits came up.

Of the 5 of us in the room, only 2 of us were combat vets, one a WWII POW (of the Japanese), and myself. The other 3 were;

1. Served in Korea, '69, served time in jail for AWOL, drug sales, abuse, etc. General Discharge. This guy is getting 60% Non-Service Connected Pension

2. Navy '55-'59, Europe, Pacific. Getting 100% [Non-Service Connected] Disability.

3. 22 years Air National Guard, '54-'76, getting 140% Disability.

The VA councilor, then told me she has a guy she sees, Vietnam Area [Era] Vet who deserted to Canada, was caught and sent to prison, and because they were not nice to him he filed, and got 100% PTSD Disability.

Am I doing something wrong here?

The writer has been battling the VA for forty years for compensation for *Service-Connected* Disabilities.

Discuss among yourselves.



 

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43 Comments

By John of Argghhh! on March 19, 2009 3:03 PM
Unfortunately, Bill.  This is an *old* story.

Long fights against a bewildering system.
 
By BillT on March 19, 2009 3:44 PM
Wrong lesson.

Teaching point is that two Bad Actors are collecting something they're not entitled to and one four-year troop is collecting full benefits for *non-service* disabilities.

Additional teaching point thrown in gratis: based just on the stats I've seen, I'd be willing to place a sizeable wager that there are probably more non-vets receiving VA treatment than genuine ones.

For starters, according to the 2000 census, there are about a million of us Viet-vets left alive.

According to the same census, there are almost fourteen million people out there who said they served in Vietnam. Not served *during* the Vietnam War -- served *in* Vietnam.

So, my inner Student of Human Nature figgers that, of those thirteen million lying sacks of sh*t, there are *at least* ten percent milking the VA...

 
By Cannoneer No. 4 on March 19, 2009 4:01 PM
Somebody calling themselves Locutisprime wrote something recently that may be of interest:

What Price What Value Service
 
By htom on March 19, 2009 4:08 PM
BillT -- probably true. The mindset of the vet is to help his buddies, the mindset of the scammer is to help himself to anything available. The mindset of the VA bean counters ... do they even have minds to set? ... is to think that those approaching are scammers. The more scammers they find, the more convinced they are that the next guy is one. There was considerable resistance at the VA hospital to the idea that I had epilepsy at all, until the day I was walking down the hall with two doctors, and had a series of seizures that convinced them otherwise. Then, now convinced there was actually something wrong with me, they found and confirmed the problem within days. Jarhead stupid, I declined the 30% disability, but the American Legion lawyers helping me insisted that I at least keep the 0% service connection. Since that wouldn't cost anyone else anything, I agreed.
 
By BloodSpite on March 19, 2009 5:28 PM
I was medical out for my hips. Initially I figured I would never file for my disability. Then while in New York in 2001 while in the throe's of a divorce I tried to file. I was approved for my Disability. 10% for 1 shattered hip and the second one cracked on a military operation during a airborne operation. In May of 2007. 6 Years I filled out paperwork. 6 Years I hum drummed about. Sure I probably could have gotten a lawyer, but my heart after I got settled from the divorce, was never really in it. Still. 6 Years? For something that I was discharged for and is listed on my DD-214 by Chapter? Further Still the amazement for 10%. I speak to guys regularly who have 10% because they have bad knee's from running. I had 2 full hip replacement surgeries! Either way, without trying to sound like a whiner, I have it now. Yay me. I'm not going to push for me because A: I can work. and B: There are people in the system who need that money more than I do and the budget for the VA has never been all that and a bag of chips. It just boggles me the way they decide who qualifies, who doesn't, and the never ending bureaucracy of it all.
 
By Lisa on March 19, 2009 8:17 PM
Ok, I work for the VA, and I'll vouch for this---the majority of our vets aren't SC for anything---except for the one I found SC for an STD--sexually transmitted disease!!!---and several female vets SC for an hysterectomy.  We give priority care for SC disabilities, but I have to tell you that the majority of our "disabled" vets aren't.......they function quite well until it comes time for a c&p eval.

Before you fry me as a cynic----I want the system revised so that my disabled vets are given a higher priority for care, and so we stop spending money on deadbeat wanna-be's and spend the money on those who earned it.....
 
By Pogue on March 19, 2009 9:23 PM
There's a lot of people that milk the system for everything they can.  There's also a lot of people who should be in the system that are too proud or too self reliant.  My cousin (RVN 67-68 USMC) had lots of medical problems from documented Agent Orange exposure.  My wife finally talked him into putting in a claim last year, which got him 100%.  They had him approved and payed up in a couple of months, which was good news since he was already terminal at that point.  He passed away last year.  Another friend of mine had issues related to being blown up in a mortar attack at one of the fire bases supporting Khe San.  Has only just recently put in a claim.  I think it really hurt him to do so.  In my opinion combat related conditions should be pri one, service related pri two (and we really need to revaluate what service related is) anything else should be space available.  The people working the system are just stealing from wounded vets in my book.
 
By Argent on March 19, 2009 10:48 PM
To get VA benefits do you have to reasonably prove you have, in fact served.  Bill kinda suggests otherwise so I'm wondering what the missing link is.

So those that serve get permanent cover beyond their service related issues?  This could be seen as part of the incentive package I guess.  Over here 4 years service for a lifetime of free private style health care is likely a good deal.

I take it running to Canada or going AWOL doesn't cut off these benefits?
 
By John of Argghhh! on March 19, 2009 11:01 PM

Argent - if you get a less-than-honorable discharge, you can apply after a period of time to have the discharge upgraded.  If you appeal is successful (and unless you have severed heads hanging from your belt, or are currently sitting in prison, it oft-times *is* successfull) you can get your discharge upgraded to Honorable and restore your eligibility for benefits.

Additionally, there was a fire at the central records repository that allowed some guys to claim unprovable service, because their records were possibly destroyed.

Fraud is also possible.  It's not hard to falsify the old DD214s and other documents (witness Rathergate) and if the VA doesn't push the issue but accepts the documents at face value (and, given how slow things *already* are...) you can cheat your way into the system.

Pogue - what changes d'you propose regarding "service-connected"?

 
By BillT on March 20, 2009 6:28 AM
Before you fry me as a cynic----

Anyone attempting to fry you as a cynic will have to walk through me, first.

And I have backup if they wait until Orange finally kills me...
 
By Lisa on March 20, 2009 7:32 AM
I'd like to see my combat vets walk in and get care.  NOW.  Dental, psych, optometry, whatever they need without a wait.  Top of the line, you walk in, you get seen.....

I'd like to see the limits that we have on dental care removed so that ANY service-connected vet can get dental care, not 100% or rated unemployable. 

I'd like to see the service-connection changed to reflect something that actually causes a disability in real life....for example, I've had my plumbing yanked and it was a blessing, not a disability.....and unless you're claiming an STD from sexual trauma, you aren't service-connected.......

Not that I begrudge any of my vets care.  I love them all, even the grumpy ones who grab body parts and get indignant when I tell them NO....but some have given more, and should, in return, receive more.
 
By Pogue on March 20, 2009 9:35 AM
'Pogue - what changes d'you propose regarding "service-connected"?'

Nothing spectacular, but stuff like injuries sustained in a drunken off duty softball game come to mind, most off duty accidents (unless it occurred as the result of a report to duty call), STDs and hysterectomies (unless as a result of service - sexual assult/POW are obvious examples here).  Preexisting conditions.  Basically in my world service related needs to be documented at the time of discovery. The screening system is in place, but it get stretched quite a bit. 

The VA also needs to declare an end date to people saying their records were destroyed in the fire as well.
 
By John of Argghhh! on March 20, 2009 9:53 AM
Well, if the drunken off-duty softball game didn't generate a line-of-duty investigation, your argument is with the Army, not the VA.

STDs should also generate a LOD (at least back in the old days) as a self-inflicted wound.

Pre-existing conditions are also the responsibility of the Army, in the accession physical.  The VA is supposed to use the accesssion physical in the assessment process.  But remember - pre-existing conditions which are exacerbated as a result of service are covered, under the law.  The issue there becomes one of "it wasn't bad enough to stop you from accepting me" but it's bad enough now that it has an impact because I beat myself physically in ways I wouldn't have otherwise.

Sounds more like your gripe lies with the Army.

This completely sets aside the issue of the guys who are faking things.  Heh. Lucky for me, with this crowd, all my stuff shows up in ways that are hard to fake, like blood work, urine samples, sleep studies, x-rays, etc.
 
By BillT on March 20, 2009 10:10 AM
*grin*

No STD.

And a lot of *my* stuff is visible. Which is why I wear long-sleeved shirts...
 
By Pogue on March 20, 2009 11:15 AM
No, actually my gripe is with people that game the system.  I know the Army does plenty of LOD investigations, but there's also a lot of stuff that is so minor that no one bothers.  If down the road someone adopts a "prove it wasn't line of duty" position, particularly if they don't mind lying to their senator/congressman and presto - service related disability.  Nor do I blame the VA in general - they do what congress tells them to due and get a lot of unjustified heat because of it.   I know recently the VA was directed to put all the OEF/OIF claims at the top of the list. Sounds great, except that just pushed you and Bill and a whole lot of other people who have given as much or more and have been working within the system back.  Frankly the Viet Nam Vets continue to get screwed.  I think the care for the OIF/OEF and to a lesser degree the Gulf War I vets has been a lot better that what the Viet Nam guys have been and still are getting.  That said, there are a lot of Viet Nam era  vets gaming the system as well.

A step sideways here...  Bill, your Viet Nam vet numbers in the other thread - I was wondering if the method of counting was changed.  I remember the when I was in in the '70's there was a distinction between "Viet Nam Veteran" - essentially someone who qualified for the VNSM  and "Viet Nam Era Veteran" who included anyone who was in the service during that period (something like 1961 to 1975 - I forget the exact dates).   Somewhere along the line Viet Nam Veteran came to include Viet Nam Era as far as EEO programs go at least - that throws a lot more people into the category.

Pogue - Air Force brat, Viet Nam Era Navy vet, Operation Iraqi Freedom Army vet, and still counting.  (No VA medical claims, but I ain't letting any of that educational money get away from me...)
 
By Oldloadr on March 20, 2009 12:19 PM
Pogue - I'm with you. I spent every penny of my Viet Nam GI Bill, although the VA fought me a few times, even on that, but I got a Masters out of it.  My fellow retirees and I considered the GI Bill to be deferred compensation for services already rendered, not a government benefit, like food stamps (although I've heard some congresscritters equate the 2).

BTW, I served 24 years and got no rating, part is my fault for not pursuing but since I was fighting the VA over part of my educational benefits, I stopped fighting the disability rating game. 

Anyway, I agree that there needs to be improvement.  My suggestion is (in this age of computers and marvelously complex databases) whenever a Military doctor diagnoses a condition that is compensable, that should go into a VA database so the veteran doesn't have to jump through hoops after discharge/retirement.  Any thoughts on this out there?
 
By BillT on March 20, 2009 1:25 PM
I remember the when I was in in the '70's there was a distinction between "Viet Nam Veteran" - essentially someone who qualified for the VNSM and "Viet Nam Era Veteran"...

The distinction is still there, for statistical purposes only, but everybody was poured into the same "Vietnam Era" mixing bowl for EEO purposes, which saved more than a few VietVets from being removed from job considerations -- I know a couple of guys who were only hired after they claimed they'd never been to Vietnam.

We've done a 180 -- now it's so fashionable to be a VietVet that guys who weren't even *born* before we pulled out are claiming to have fought at Khe Sanh and Hue.
 
By Oldloadr on March 20, 2009 1:40 PM
BillT - Maybe they should have included that type of fraud in the Stolen Valor Act...

I guess the VFW is the only organization that still draws the distinction.  I am a Viet Nam era vet, but I was in tech school (AIT for you grunts out there) when Saigon fell.   I didn't get into the VFW until 1994 when I completed my 1st Southern Watch tour.
 
By BillT on March 20, 2009 2:21 PM
Good point, Oldloadr. It'd have the additional salutory effect of keeping VA funding going to the folks who actually deserve it...

 
By Pogue on March 20, 2009 3:12 PM
- now it's so fashionable to be a VietVet that guys who weren't even *born* before we pulled out are claiming to have fought at Khe Sanh and Hue.

Yeah, and have you noticed they were all Marine Snipers, Navy SEALS or  SOG?

 
By fdcol63 on March 20, 2009 3:27 PM

Full Metal Jacket was so real, man, it was like being there!  The memory is seared, seared, in our brains.  LOL

 
By Lamigra on March 20, 2009 5:07 PM
I could tell you where I was and what I was doing, but then I'd have to kill you.
 
By BillT on March 20, 2009 5:50 PM
Heh.

Standard helicopter pilot reply to *that* line is, "You idiot -- I was the one who put you there *and* pulled you out!"
 
By Grumpy on March 20, 2009 6:04 PM
This has been a very interesting thread.  First, Lisa, you absolutely blew my mind with SC/STD's. Now, this is what some people call, "Up Front and Personal Warfare".
 
By Cricket on March 21, 2009 9:01 AM
I think any time you go to the mattresses with the VA you should get a combat medal or ribbon.  Not to mention an increase in the percentage aka 'annoyance fee.'  It depends on the board, the medical doctor who writes it up, etc.
 
By BillT on March 21, 2009 11:25 AM
Ummmmmm -- for the benefit of our readers who aren't fluent with American idioms, "going to the mattresses with -- " does *not* mean the same thing as "hopping into bed with --"...
 
By Grumpy on March 21, 2009 6:53 PM
Awwwww, you take all the fun out of it, BillT. There is an old saying, "If it looks too good to be true, it probably is!" Simply put, *forget it!* If I figure correctly, she could give you a neck adjustment. When she's done, you'll be able to look down your own backbone. (Hint: Not a good thing.)

There is a point that Cricket brings up is a very valid issue. She writes, "It depends on the board, the medical doctor who writes it up, etc." I had a major issue with grand mal seizures that previously put me into a coma. My primary healthcare provider was a retired Military doctor. The first thing he asked me to do was to go home and dig up all of my Military Discharge paperwork, originals, no copies. He then, wanted me to come back and hand it to him and let him read it. Conclusion, none of this makes sense to me and they expect you to understand it. He wanted me to obtain all of my Military Medical Records, from all sources. All he wanted from me was a letter authorizing him to obtain my records. Once he did this, he was able to knit together what had happened, now he could make sense of it. It was finally determined, I had contracted "Central Nervous System Rubella", which attacked my spinal chord and brain. this caused my brain to swell up and blow out both eardrums and on my right side, the two tiny bones within the ear. My civilian doctor had films showing the absence. This very same doctor made a copy of everything including the Military Medical Records, my Military Discharge papers and his findings. In the cover letter, the civilian doctor writes to the VA and tells them that he is keeping a copy of all documents. This would include a document sent with paperwork to the VA, showing discrepancies between my Military Medical Records and my Military Discharge Paperwork. Military Medical Records and Military Discharge Paperwork are considered a part of the "Maintained Federal Record".

If they haven't changed it The Privacy Act states, The United States Government shall not maintain an inaccurate record, which causes an adverse impact on any benefit.

In conclusion, it was never our goal to use the Privacy Act, in fact there were other benefits that were offered to me. I just didn't feel right about it. I talked with the civilian doctor, the funny thing was his answer, "Listen to your body, it'll tell you." He was right. There are a small group of disabled vets, we all work together to solve our problems. We all live within a couple of blocks of each other.

As I look at Cricket's comment, she's right on the mark.

V/R Grumpy
 
By BillT on March 22, 2009 12:51 AM
The Lady Cricket's astuteness record is impeccable.

*And* she can cook...
 
By Lamigra on March 22, 2009 5:03 PM
Bill sed:  "And I have backup if they wait until Orange finally kills me... "

Bill, I've got yer six, carry on my man.

 
By Lamigra on March 22, 2009 5:13 PM
"STDs should also generate a LOD (at least back in the old days) as a self-inflicted wound."

3d Inf Div, 1986, Div Arty, I saw an SFC get challenged on his eligibility for the "Special Weapons Program" (read:  Nukes").  His medical records showed that he had been treated for STD's several times...15 years before, when he was a 20 year old PFC in VietNam.  Go figger.....



 
By Lamigra on March 22, 2009 5:21 PM
"Standard helicopter pilot reply to *that* line is, "You idiot -- I was the one who put you there *and* pulled you out!""

Yep, but I've known a few of your guys (3ID Aviation Brigade, 1987-1990), and you've _all_ got CRS and most have a healthy serving of CRAFT...present company excepted, of course!!!

 
By Lamigra on March 22, 2009 5:36 PM
Grumpy sed "It was finally determined, I had contracted "Central Nervous System Rubella", which attacked my spinal chord and brain. this caused my brain to swell up and blow out both eardrums and on my right side, the two tiny bones within the ear."

Jeeze Louise, no _wonder_ they call you Grumpy!

I already had significant loss of hearing on both sides when I had what I was told was a "stroke to the left ear" in October of 2000.  I lost all hearing on the left side, except for the _constant_ ringing _on_the_left_side_.

Some people, right after that, thought I was ignoring them, or was PO'd for some unknown reason, until they realized that I just _could_not_ hear them, if they were off to my left.  To this day I have to make sure my SWWBO is on my right, so I can hear her.

Oh, and monodirectional hearing is a "beach" when I can hear someone calling my name and have to start spinning like a top to locate the source.

 
By Argent on March 22, 2009 7:39 PM
The ringing is called tinnitus, I've had that since birth.

no no no you put em to the left so you *can't* hear em.
 
By Grumpy on March 22, 2009 8:05 PM
@Lamigra, the real kicker was the fact,  I was being treated for a head cold, severe headaches and severe earaches. In reality, I had encephalitis (brain swelling), when my ear drums blew, according to the doctors, my ears were draining a blood plus spinal fluid mix. But after the event, it was the first time I could sleep in a long time. But I didn't dare, until after the examination by the doctors. After they tried to clean me up and when they were finished, then they told me I could go to sleep. I went to bed and went into a very deep sleep and my body's internal temperature was above the lethal range. In fact, according to the Glascow Scale, I went into a deep coma for days. But after I started to wake up, the two doctor who worked on me were Marine Corps. Colonels. They were the first ones to fully understand and put on isolation gear. When I was fully functional or as functional as I was going to be, they both visited. It was their duty to tell me I would be medically discharged.

By The way, the issues of ringing in your ears and monodirectional hearing are real problems. People are clueless, until they are required to deal with it.

By the way, let me get my glasses, so I can hear you.
 
By Grumpy on March 22, 2009 8:11 PM
Argent, are you trying to cause trouble? Are you talking about defective hearing or selective hearing?  
 
By Argent on March 22, 2009 8:17 PM
Grumpy, I have very bad hearing from birth (unknown if congenital because there's no history) which is known by many in the Castle because I blogged on it years ago.  The first bit is about defective hearing.  The second bit is me being a smartarse on selective hearing.
 
By John of Argghhh! on March 22, 2009 8:21 PM
Grumpy - what Argent meant to say was... "Yes."
 
By Argent on March 22, 2009 8:36 PM
A one word answer in a blog?  That would break the Ry compact of wordy lull you to sleep before stricking method.
 
By Grumpy on March 22, 2009 9:44 PM
John, *Thank you*, for the clarity.
 
By Mae on March 22, 2009 9:52 PM
All the "male" comments on this entire blog are not only informative but lively reading.  G-d how I love men, that wonderful breed apart!
 
By John of Argghhh! on March 22, 2009 10:53 PM
Hah!  Grumpy, at times you do snark *so* well...
 
By BillT on March 23, 2009 5:54 AM
Yep, but I've known a few of your guys (3ID Aviation Brigade, 1987-1990)

Hey, LaMigra -- remember the termite-riddled hangars with the dry-rotted catwalks at Hunter-Stewart? I got yelled at by an O-6 for writing 'em up on an ARMS inspection as an unacceptable hazard and recommending they be used to give the CFR guys practice in extinguishing structural fires...
 
By Grumpy on March 23, 2009 6:23 PM
Argent, For your information, I do understand the difference between defective and selective hearing. Presently, I have 60% hearing in one ear and 0% in the other. The doctors and specialists warned me to not even consider amplification. I'm also an epileptic, who can have all of the variations of seizures. I remember back in 1999, the doctors were trying to find the right cocktail to control them. There was a conference call on how to deal with this issue, it was decided to add one medication to the cocktail. But instead of reducing the seizures, it caused them in new areas of the brain. My body began to shut down and I wound up in the VA Hospital. They did an outstanding job. The first thing they did was remove the new medication. My body had to work this stuff out of my system. As things improved, the older doctor said, "It's time you and I had a long talk." I already had some breakfast, tasted great! Doc, brought the best cup of coffee, we talked about life and approach to life with changes. Many times, we don't go to the docs because of the possibilities of change. I've been fortunate enough to have a better life because I had a better understanding of my brain and seizures. My seizures can be triggered by sensory input, this is the reason for no amplification.

Because of the suggestion of the VA doctors, he made some suggestion to get a microwave and an internet compatible computer. Because I could no longer travel, I could travel on the internet.

Because of this, I have been fortunate enough to meet this crowd.

To all, *Thank You!*