Comments for Exploring the territory between rocks and hard places...

Exploring the territory between rocks and hard places...

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 09:52:19 -0600

This is an interesting article and illustrative of what I think is a very different atmosphere in the US today.

Comment from Cannoneer No. 4 on 2009-03-04

Wed, 04 Mar 2009 07:18:33 -0600

With the ascent to power of our new Commander-in-Chief and his Attorney General, those of us old enough to have been politically aware in those days remember Waco, Elian Gonzalez, Oklahoma City, Wayne Lapierre's "Jack Booted Thugs" and Bush 41's histrionics over that.

For you to construe from the above sentence that I am or was "in favor" of OKC indicates to me that you have allowed your drama queeniness to becloud your comprehension, ry.

And why bother to explain anything to you? You'll just get fed up.

I remember Ruby Ridge, ry. H-S Precision won't let me forget.

Comment from Cannonshop on 2009-03-04

Wed, 04 Mar 2009 05:46:18 -0600

"Some goob sold a national audience on this and had nutjobs calling in from CA to bring protestors. That does not speak well of avg US intelligence. "

DUH-they elected Obama, didn't they?

Comment from ry on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 22:13:30 -0600

Okay, so some people smelled the BS. A lot didn't. (NOw that I finished the last half of the article) The people in proximity knew what was up and didn't sweat it. I still don't see how Dusty gets from the report of the exercise to man the ramparts without stealing an intellectual base too many. I don't follow and wouldn't mind having it laid out a little plainer. A little more fleshed out it might not sound like Hannity paranoia, but that's what I'm seeing right now. Paranoia. Not hedging of bets(as in the case of buying something so it's grandfathered when a law gets passed) but paranoia.

Some goob sold a national audience on this and had nutjobs calling in from CA to bring protestors. That does not speak well of avg US intelligence.

Comment from ry on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 22:07:17 -0600

I quit when I got fed up. It sounds like so much of the 'America under seige' shiite I get so fed up with. Maybe it was a mistake, but I'm seeing so much of it from so many corners of late, but it seemed somewhat reasonable to quit reading the linked article.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 22:01:56 -0600

Um, Ry, did you *read* through the whole thing, or just quit when you got fed up?

Comment from Argent on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 21:55:56 -0600

I wonder you know. The second ammendment seems very much geared at countering government control. If you guys with bangsticks all fall in line when they knock on your door what then is the purpose of the second ammendment? In such a case the right to bears arms didn't add the value originally intended.

I also think that if it does come to that door knock the US is already lost because it means the majority of people are aligned to allow such a thing to happen and that means those values of America are already lost before the attempt to grab your guns.

Comment from ry on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 21:45:49 -0600

Actually, Dusty, I got halfway thru that and got fed up. This whole 'Red State America Under Seige' mentality is flat out stupid, and getting agrivating. A bunch of folks riled up listening to talk radio doesn't sound to me to be a sign of American intelligence. (I know some true MENSA types who listen to that stuff and come up with some VERY warped ideas of what the world looks like, and, yeah, that's an assumption I'm working with.)

Tempest in a teapot, actually. Guard unit asks for volunteers, right wing scaremonger(hey, his financial success is dependent upon making people scared and upset, kinda like Al Sharpton) totally blows it out of proportion and intentionally misrepresents it, and from this you get to 'they're gonna grab my guns! Man the ramparts!'? To steal a line from Jonah, you stole an intellectual base to many for me to follow, homes. And I disagree totally on this being evidence of Joe Schmoe being able to sniff out the BS, if it was it woulda been people doing a double take when they read the headline and looking for two more confirming reports. Instead we got knee jerk, and that is really starting to bug me.

I was happy when that MN Militia crap became passe. I dont wanna see it come back. That kind of paranoia is unhealthy.

I mean, really, we're gonna have our expression of Leftard paranoia, but instead of wanting to make new nations called Pacifica(to balance out Jesusland) we're going down the 'we'll wage war against the gun grabbers'? People gotta get a grip and turn off the Hannity.

Heh, and #4, you left out Ruby Ridge, homes. And, you're citing OKC, a moment of whackado 'Muricans lost in some serious paranoia as something in you're favor here? Okay, I don't get it. Please explain. That just seems bass ackwards to me.

Really, some of us need to stop acting like we're the peasants in Monty Python and the Holy Grail with the constant protestations of being oppressed.

Comment from Pogue on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 18:49:03 -0600

Also remember that the National Guard is a reflection of its community. The response to orders to cordon and search with the intent to confiscate weapons here would likely get a different response depending on the location.

Comment from Cannoneer No. 4 on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 18:20:06 -0600

:/)

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 17:38:29 -0600

#4, *you're* the informant?

8^ )

Comment from Cannoneer No. 4 on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 17:22:49 -0600

Back in the mid-70's, U.S. Army Special Forces used the Desoto National Forest as a training area and local Mississippians as auxiliaries in Unconventional Warfare training exercises. Mississippi Highway Patrol and Stone County Sheriff's Department were part of the Opposing Force. They even had a bear in the air with a searchlight.

Imagine doing that today. Nowadays we seem to hide our training at remote sites away from nosy citizens, and hire contractors to play the roles of auxiliaries or indigenous Host Nation personnel.

With the ascent to power of our new Commander-in-Chief and his Attorney General, those of us old enough to have been politically aware in those days remember Waco, Elian Gonzalez, Oklahoma City, Wayne Lapierre's "Jack Booted Thugs" and Bush 41's histrionics over that. Since those days, law enforcement at all levels has become even more militarized, with more fully automatic weapons, armored vehicles, very long range large caliber precision rifles, all financed through asset forfeiture and other spoils of the War on Drugs. And since those days we have trained up hundreds of thousands of door kickers who, viewed from an insurgent's perspective, were no slouches in jack booted thuggery themselves.

Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?

Be honest with yourself. They don't call it the painful truth for nothing.

And remember, the bloody-mindedest loud mouth at the meeting is always the FBI informant.

Comment from TWS on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 16:40:03 -0600

Funny, A friend and I were just having this conversation over the weekend. Neither of us had heard the story yet. Just because you're paranoid...

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 16:13:30 -0600

Heh. There really is some fractured history in that last comment...

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 16:12:05 -0600

Hey, yanno what they say about the difference between Missouri and Kansas... during the march west, when people hit the Missouri, the quitters stayed behind.

Keep your Redlegs, you scallywag! They gave the term a bad name...

As for sacking Lawrence, you can find your torches over by the barn. Jayhawks are still legal game birds at Castle Argghhh!

Comment from Kevin on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 16:01:26 -0600

"That said, the Kansas National Guard is welcome to set up a TOC at my place if they want to do a little "Defense of Eastern Kansas Against Those Damn Missourians" exercise."

Traitor!

Next you'll be worshipping at the alter of Colonel Lane.... (Crappy BBQ btw)

I'll inform Quantrill that a Jim Brown sycophant is in a (well-armed) residence next time Lawrence needs burning... which come to think of it... is just about every day.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 15:52:35 -0600

I didn't weigh in on that aspect... because I'm pondering a post on the subject.

One that will probably just get me in trouble. And not with the government.

Comment from BillT on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 15:48:10 -0600

But ask yourself why this thing sort of blew up in the Guard's face.

Infowars.com posted The Times Herald's article without permission, and although full credit was given, the Web site misled its visitors by changing the headline to say "Iowa National Guard to train for gun confiscation."

*That's* why it blew up in the Guard's face.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 15:37:44 -0600

I'm mostly with you, Dusty. I can imagine the outcry if we tried to do the Louisiana Maneuvers again.

That said, the Kansas National Guard is welcome to set up a TOC at my place if they want to do a little "Defense of Eastern Kansas Against Those Damn Missourians" exercise.

I suspect if they did a "cordon and search" exercise at my place it would turn into a historical weapons shoot. Which means they better bring some ammo with 'em. I've got the barbecue and brats.

I dunno what the rules are when they aren't in Federal status, but I'll be having a beer or two, as well.

Comment from Josh on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 14:56:56 -0600

It's a scary thought.

I wonder, how many REAL Republican governors (not including fake Republicans like Charlie Crist) would actually go along with it? Governors "will have to comply with federal law" as you say, but if they understand that the federal law violates the Constitution, and furthermore threatens the very freedom of our country, will they really go for it? Governors aren't part of the federal government, they don't have offices in DC or get their paychecks signed by the President's Treasury department. Even in these dark, centralized, authoritarian days, they still have a measure of independence from the Feds. I dare say Sarah Palin wouldn't order the Guard out to collect Alaskans' rifles.

Sadly, now that Jeb is gone, we here in Florida would have the Guardsmen breaking down the doors in no time. In a situation like that, what DO you do? I don't see any use in "making a stand" either, when it's just going to get you killed and reported as some sort of terrorist...and even if, somehow, you let loose on the authorities and fought them off, (maybe you live in a fortress with M2 HMG emplacements? I dunno...) so what? You've just gone and killed a bunch of American servicemen. Great, now we're doing our enemies' jobs for them. On the other hand, do you just hand over your firearms like a good little subject? Then what do you do when they ask for the rest of your rights? You've already given away the one that's supposed to help you secure the others, and more importantly, you've set the precedent anyway. So what's left? Bury your Mossberg in the back yard? Wait for better days, or until you can organize a massive demonstration with armed civil disobedience?

I'm really not sure what the right thing to do is, if the Obamessiah decides that the Constitution needs some Change.

Comment from JamesLee on 2009-03-03

Tue, 03 Mar 2009 11:44:02 -0600

Mostly on the disarming...

My personal opinion is that it's fairly obvious that President Obama would like nothing more than to make over this country into some sort of European Socialist Utopia. While very difficult at best to accomplish with our seperation of powers, it doesn't mean he won't try. And, disarming the population would be one of the first priorities in his mind.

I think, however, that he has already overreached, and the inevitable pushback is already beginning. You know, as I saw the election unfolding, I tried not to worry a lot, because, hey, how much damage can a fellow do in two years? (Two years being the point where the opposition picks up enough ground in Congress to at least put up a decent fight) Now I really wonder how much damage will be done. In the long run, we may get some sort of watered-down "assault weapons" legislation, but even that is looking like a slim possibility now. Especially with all the new gun owners out there now, thanks to Obama himself ironically.

All that being said, I strongly believe in the 2nd Amendment. And often recite the bumper stickers, Cold Dead Hands, Take my guns, but they will have to take the bullets first, etc. However, what would *I* do if law enforcement, not even counting heavily armed Gaurdsmen, showed up and wanted mine? The last thing I would ever *WANT* to do is use my firearms, if I actually had any, in that fashion. I'm also not crazy about the idea of going to prison. If I were to theoretically 'make a stand,' and such, you would be reading about a dead domestic terrorist who fired on law enforcement as they investigated an illegal weapons cache. So that's out too. No real choices, and none of them good.

Now, back in the real world, how many National Gaurdsmen, or police officers for that matter, would willingly and enthusiatically carry out orders like that? There would be a large number that would refuse, I'm sure. Maybe not enough to stop it, but enough to make a stink.

As for the exercise in Arcadia, well, I think it was probably an innocent enough exercise, with no ill will intended. Blown way out of proportion, which is Jones' specialty, as he is very good at taking bits of truth and stringing them together with amazing leaps of logic based on his own "truth." But, it is a bit of a 'hmmm' moment, giving us pause, food for thought, and What If exercises.