Comments for The Medal of Posthumous Honor

The Medal of Posthumous Honor

Tue, 03 Feb 2009 07:42:33 -0600

The Medal of Honor is a perplexing thing - trying to scry out the why's and wherefore's of who gets one. Among our allies in the Long War, the Brits, the Aussies, and the Kiwis all have something in common - they have living recipients of the Victoria Cross, awarded for actions that occured during their participation in the Long War. The Victoria Cross is the Commonwealth equivalent to the Medal of Honor. The United States has none.

Comment from Tim on 2009-02-04

Wed, 04 Feb 2009 07:33:21 -0600

The only thing I can think of to differentiate SSG Atkins from some of the others is that they jumped on grenades that were sure to detonate, while SSG Atkins was trying to stop the enemy from setting off his suicide vest. No less heroic, but maybe the the tiny difference in the probability of an explosion was enough for the board. I think we're doing our country a major disservice by not awarding The Medal to some of of our heroes who managed to survive their battles.

Comment from fdcol63 on 2009-02-04

Wed, 04 Feb 2009 06:45:26 -0600

"It reminds me of Matyrdom actually."

I agree, Argent.

Comment from Argent on 2009-02-04

Wed, 04 Feb 2009 01:30:31 -0600

I think John you were asking the wrong person. That reply is a stonewall. This issue says bad things about integrity to me and the failure to clarify deepens that.

I see two driving forces.

1) Dead people don't inconvenience or embarass either the Government or the Military. I'm thinking here more in political or bad behaviour lines.

2) There's a diseased cultural undercurrent of respecting heroes for their death rather than their deeds. The 'ultimate sacrifice' worshippers. It reminds me of Matyrdom actually.

Comment from Heartless Libertarian on 2009-02-03

Tue, 03 Feb 2009 21:08:11 -0600

Just to stir the pot a bit...one of my classmates at my functional area school had just finished an Iraq tour on the 1st Cav Division staff. He said that he knew of at least 6-8 MOH nominations that came through that division in their 12 months. If you figure that their tour was typical, with 3 divisions in theater for most of the war, and 4 since early 2007, that figures to 20-25 nominations per year from 2004-2006, and around 30 per year from 2007-present (I won't guess at 2003). Call it 100-120 nominations, rough guess, for just Iraq since 2004. Oh, and that's just for Army and Marine divisions - it doesn't include SOF types).

So, at best (I know at least one MOH awarded came from OEF), that means 4% of the (guesstimated) MOH nominations for Iraq resulted in an actual award.

Anyone know the success rate of nominations for other wars in the last 100 years?

Oh, and for the record, I think SSG Bellavia may very well hav sabotaged his nomination by running for Congress.

Comment from Justthisguy on 2009-02-03

Tue, 03 Feb 2009 19:47:46 -0600

Pogue, I too feel that way about the Legion of Merit. It seems to be what they give you if you are a semi-high-ranking person who gets not exactly fired, more "kicked upstairs" so that you won't feel so bad and won't make trouble.

Comment from Justthisguy on 2009-02-03

Tue, 03 Feb 2009 19:40:39 -0600

I think of that guy who died of old age recently, who got a MoH for throwing himself on not just one, but two grenades at Iwo Jima. Afterwards, he went home and finished high school.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-02-03

Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:27:06 -0600

Yet, we don't see a flood of Holders out trashing the government do we? And one would expect the Vietnam generation to have some Holders with some grudges.

Again, if you guys are correct, and I don't yet accept that - shame on them.

Comment from J.T. Wenting on 2009-02-03

Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:23:41 -0600

I think fdcol63 hit the nail on the head. Dead man don't talk, they don't appear on television to say things you don't want said about an unpopular administration (as this current one is bound to turn out to be, and the previous one was at least portrayed to be).
MoH holders have a mystique about them, people listen when they talk. That's not the kind of person you want leading a protest march against the government, or even writing a letter to the editor of a major newspaper stating they feel the government is going the wrong with with their trillion dollar pork-bill (and no doubt the military would be punished by more severe cuts than the 11% they're already loosing were that to happen).

So we're not talking "the wrong side of the law", just the wrong side of some congresscritter or cabinet parrot who holds the keys to the DoD budget.
Something that might of course end up being against the law if things in the US go as I fully expect them to go over the next few months to a year.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-02-03

Tue, 03 Feb 2009 12:56:59 -0600

From the Holders I know, there's a funny thing about the Medal. It owns you, you don't own it. It can be a bit transformative in that regard.

There aren't that many Medal holders who've found themselves on the wrong side of the law after getting their Medals. And when they do, it tends not to be a big deal.

If, as Frank and others suggest, that's a logic being applied - Shame On Them Who Think That Way. Not Frank, but people who are concerned about future behavior in Medal recipients.

Comment from fdcol63 on 2009-02-03

Tue, 03 Feb 2009 12:53:55 -0600

Dead heroes are less apt to embarrass in the future.

Comment from fdcol63 on 2009-02-03

Tue, 03 Feb 2009 12:49:26 -0600

IMHO, some in the upper echelons of the vetting and awarding process may worry more about future conduct than the heroism for which the award is warranted.

Comment from olga on 2009-02-03

Tue, 03 Feb 2009 12:48:53 -0600

"I found them to be distingquishable'", "The devil is in the details"...
I say this is a BS. Rafael Peralta was denied his MOH for being 'too wounded' to make a conscious decision and SSG Atkins' sacrifice had what wrong 'detail'?? Did not let the guy with a suicide vest go in a first place so the guy did not have to detonate his vest??

On the 'post-humous' issue, I agree with you, John. There is something going on here, I just can't put my finger on it. I do not believe that the issue of surviving should negate the level of bravery and sacrifice accorded to the person who covers a live grenade/suicide vest with his own body to save his buddies and other innocent people...

Comment from htom on 2009-02-03

Tue, 03 Feb 2009 12:30:11 -0600

Regardless of my level of trust, it looks like discrimination against the living.

Comment from XBradTC on 2009-02-03

Tue, 03 Feb 2009 11:28:11 -0600

The Secretary's answer could hardly have been anything else. The recommendation process and deliberations are shrouded in secrecy, to an extent that the CIA should emulate.

But I agree with the concern that there is in place a de facto policy that the Medal of Honor will not be presented to a living recipient. I have my own suspicions why this is so.

Comment from JimC on 2009-02-03

Tue, 03 Feb 2009 09:56:39 -0600

John,

You pose the 64 thousand dollar question and I did not find Secretary Geren particularly convincing probably because his answer is basically, "Trust me."

Comment from AFSister on 2009-02-03

Tue, 03 Feb 2009 09:29:02 -0600

As you said, John, the devil is in the details... but I *still* don't get it. Both McGinnis and Atkins knowingly fell on explosives to save the lives of those around them. One gets the MoH; one gets DSC. I can understand the controversy around the last DSC award with similar circumstances (the one where the soldier was already severely wounded when he fell on the grenade). We've had private discussions about that, so I get that one. This one... I don't get.

I hope that your question, and Duncan Hunter's questions, will provide answers and results. Our guys are out there performing incredibly heroic acts, and they're not being honored the way they should. This needs to be fixed.

Comment from Pogue on 2009-02-03

Tue, 03 Feb 2009 09:20:50 -0600

It seems like the whole awards thing has gotten strange - The Bonze Star is now a wartime Meritorious Service Medal, the Silver Star seems to be hanging in there, but for anything below that you need to look for the "V" device. I never did figure out what the Legion of Merit is supposed to be for... Still, for me the medal I'm proudest of is my GWOTE. It may not rate very high, but it means something to me.