Comments for Close Station and March Order, Gitmo.

Close Station and March Order, Gitmo.

Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:35:33 -0600

CSMO. Close Station, March Order. That's artillery-speak for prepare to move to a new position, and President Obama has issued a CSMO directive regarding the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay. Allow me to offer the reasons that my neck of the woods, Fort Leavenworth, isn't an optimal choice to be the next battery postion for the detainees. A little history. Fort Leavenworth, Kansas was established in 1827, making it the oldest continuously operating Army installation west of the Mississippi River. The county seat, Leavenworth, is the “First City” of Kansas incorporating in 1854, and Leavenworth County was established in 1855. This was a rough-and-tumble place back during the "Bleeding Kansas" era pre-dating the Civil War, but we worked through it. Back in the day, as home to the “First City” of Kansas, the leadership of Leavenworth county was offered a choice – they could have the new state university, or they could have the new state prison. Finding the thought of ruffian college students too odious to bear, they opted the for the prison. So, Lawrence got what became Kansas University, and Leavenworth County got the Lansing Correctional Facility. That simple decision has come to shape the destiny of Leavenworth the city and county. Prison City, USA. That's us.

Comment from Josh on 2009-02-16

Mon, 16 Feb 2009 01:35:55 -0600

Well, we *are* renters, and the landlord did try to evict us, sorta. We counter-sued with better lawyers and biggers guns, and won. As far as the Cuban gov't is concerned, we're squatters. We're hoping for a new landlord.

As far as we're concerned, they're just criminals who broke into the house, shot the landlord, and turned it into a crackhouse, and they want us out of the garage.

Of course..."we" doesn't really include the federal government anymore...because the federal government is now being run by the crackheads.

And ONLY I mean "crackheads" metaphorically. Really, that's all it is. Honest.

Comment from BloodSpite on 2009-02-15

Sun, 15 Feb 2009 23:13:35 -0600

Several years ago my Uncle told me a joke about a state who wanted to do away with their in state execution referendum and reduce overcrowding in their prison population at the same time. I think, given the situation, that this is an excellent time to take his plan in to consideration. You build a 10 story prison. 800 feet wide, by 800 feet deep. All the outside walls are cells. All the interior blocks are operations, administration, and security. There are only 2 doors. One at the bottom, and one at the top. As a prisoner comes in they move all the prisoners up one cell. The prisoner in the last cell gets tossed off the roof.

Comment from ry on 2009-02-15

Sun, 15 Feb 2009 17:30:09 -0600

Okay, send it to where people called for it to be closed. Do you then parcel out the prisoners to NYC, Atlanta, Chicago, SF, Detroit, Denver, Vail,.....

Political payback sounds fun, but let's be smart. Alcatraz makes some sense because of the difficulty of getting to and back from the island it sits on. But, being a major metro with 4 major airports(SFO, Oakland, SJ, and Sacramento) within an hour's drive the hostage scenario that makes Leavenworth a non starter just got made huger. But I think that's Doc's point: increase the casualty count of the idjits who opposed the Iraq war; whereas mine is how do we minimize the problem.

Johnston atoll seems to much like GITMO to fly imo. Same for sending them to Guam or American Samoa or other non-State territories. Pick a place and build, baby build.

Comment from doc75 on 2009-02-15

Sun, 15 Feb 2009 15:35:00 -0600

The people who asked for GITMO to close should have to bear the burden. Alcatraz is in the heart of the Bay Area and Nancy Pelosi's district. If they want GITMO to close, they can deal with the prisoners. End of story.

Comment from Argent on 2009-02-15

Sun, 15 Feb 2009 13:50:10 -0600

Yay two converts we'll get those extra vowels in colour and favourite yet!

I usually prefer my flesh unadulterated unless it's a tad chewy. Irish style stew is nice with beer. Actually I've been meaning to try a vegemite slathered roast and see how it turns out. The plan Bill is to have copious amounts. You'd never use your last one on a marinade.

Comment from BillT on 2009-02-15

Sun, 15 Feb 2009 09:23:52 -0600

Try these, then, although the "Vegemite and Beer Marinated Steaks" seems like a waste of beer...

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-02-15

Sun, 15 Feb 2009 08:13:46 -0600

I like vegemite.

Comment from Argent on 2009-02-15

Sun, 15 Feb 2009 00:37:16 -0600

Can't say I listen to him properly no. I suppose I should pay more attention. I had no idea he ruled out sending them to another country. Volunteer huh.. like my grandfather volunteered to the nazis i suppose. Fosters costs too much to import from Canada. We can Australianise them with copious amounts of vegemite until they discover it's torture to non natives.

I think the Armorer's only employment of irony is an artillery strike.

Comment from ry on 2009-02-15

Sun, 15 Feb 2009 00:16:58 -0600

ARe you employing that irony thing again, Armorer? It's too late for me to get that. if'n you is. Be blunt. ;)

Comment from ry on 2009-02-15

Sun, 15 Feb 2009 00:13:44 -0600

Argent, you've actually read what The One has said, right? The Executive ORders? This quasi-extraterritorial thing simply isn't going to fly. The Powers That (Currently) Be are insensed over renditions(and renditions have only really meant sending prisoners to places where the legal barriers are much lower, you don't rendition to Canada for instance). So, with those two frowned upon, there's only one place for them to go---bonafide US territory.

Are you saying AUS is going to volunteer to take these Jokers? hey, fine, you can have them. Just give them all the surplus Fosters. (What? ARgent says it's not really beer!)

Comment from Argent on 2009-02-14

Sat, 14 Feb 2009 23:42:58 -0600

Humpff Pelosi probably pukes and blanches everytime she passes a mirror.

Why are you all assuming they'll go to the US of A?

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-02-14

Sat, 14 Feb 2009 23:32:34 -0600

A lot of the arguments against Leavenworth apply to SF, too.

Remote. Middle of nowhere. Clear fields of fire...

Comment from ry on 2009-02-14

Sat, 14 Feb 2009 22:46:46 -0600

You know, Fuzz, all the arguments made for not putting it in KS applies to not putting it in the SD area too. Hell, Miramar isn't nearly the boonies and neither is Pendleton(and Pendleton gets penetrated by illegals periodically).

Alcatraz makes some sense, sorta, except the refitting would be intense; and Pelosi already puked and blanched over that idea.

Comment from Cricket on 2009-02-14

Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:38:52 -0600

What about Alcatraz Island? With pig sharks to swim around the bay? I am so sure the peaceniks would just love that...I just read Bloodspite's post to see if I was the only one...great minds, etc.
San Francisco, the city by the bay across from Berkeley...

heh.

Comment from Boquisucio on 2009-02-14

Sat, 14 Feb 2009 17:52:59 -0600

Quitting Rosie Roads, was a BIG mistake for the US Navy. You never know when their ships will ever need another Coaling Station.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-02-14

Sat, 14 Feb 2009 16:20:09 -0600

Well, we *are* renters, and the landlord did try to evict us, sorta. We counter-sued with better lawyers and biggers guns, and won. As far as the Cuban gov't is concerned, we're squatters. We're hoping for a new landlord.

And if we *did* give it back, I would take back or remove all the improvements we made.

Unless, of course, we find a new management congenial - and I suspect we won't give it back if for no other reason than to not have it become an instant Russian naval base.

Comment from Josh on 2009-02-14

Sat, 14 Feb 2009 14:55:58 -0600

Maybe this is just me thinking as a capitalist, but why should we give Castro something for nothing? If he wants it back badly enough, he should give us something we want. Maybe it's a boatload of cigars...maybe it's ending the policy of imprisoning people for their politics...I dunno...

Or maybe it's just me thinking as a rabid anti-communist or a guy who lives in South Florida and feels like Cuba is just a little too close for comfort for a Marxist revolutionary state, especially considering that this guy (not these people or this state, I mean this guy) was willing to point nukes at us when he had the chance. Either way, Castro is the enemy, so why give gifts to the enemy?

Comment from FbL on 2009-02-14

Sat, 14 Feb 2009 09:42:18 -0600

My consolation is that if it's Pendleton or Miramar, both are too far away for anything short of a nuclear/dirty explosion or a bio agent to directly impact me.

I'll just pretend I don't know anybody on either base.... *sigh*

John, I know they're all NIMBY arguments, but I saw them as Not In the U.S. Backyard arguments. *double sigh*

I'm trying to do the "Respect the office" thing, but I am beginning to develop some very pointed opinions of certain people's intellectual skills...

Comment from BloodSpite on 2009-02-14

Sat, 14 Feb 2009 08:38:03 -0600

..... Apparently I really needed to make my point none it seems. heh. Sorry about that

Comment from BloodSpite on 2009-02-14

Sat, 14 Feb 2009 08:24:58 -0600

Perhaps I've lost my mind, but if we are forced to bring those *ahem* unfortunate souls here to the mainland...I propose we reactivate Alcatraz.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-02-14

Sat, 14 Feb 2009 07:51:45 -0600

Josh, at this point in time, why not give it back? If we need a naval base in the Caribbean for strategic purposes, well, we *closed* the ones we had in Puerto Rico and St. Thomas. At least those two islands were ours, and the it would be US citizens deriving benefit.

Gitmo is maintained for political purposes (to include periodically pacifying Puerto Rican governments of varying politics by removing the military presence from PR) and it's functions, aside from JTF-Gitmo, could be relocated to other places. Having been to St. Thomas, they could use some help - though I'm' not sure the island could actually support re-establishing a base there, since the residents have put a good chunk of the former sub-base to their own purposes.

But I bet they'd find a way, given the economic structure of the island.

Comment from Josh on 2009-02-14

Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:54:59 -0600

I like the idea of storing them in an atoll in the Pacific, I think it's arguably a better prison than Guantanamo Bay. A desert wasteland ringed by mountains in the West would be nice too.

However, I've got another nagging suspicion about this whole thing.

Aside from the whole nonsense about processing the inmates through the civilian legal system, I am worried that closing the Guantanamo Bay detention center may be the first step required in giving Guantanamo Bay back to Castro. I know this might sound paranoid and crazy, but think about it this way: You are Barack Hussein Obama. You have absolutely no problems with hardline communists. In fact, Fidel Castro demonstrates himself to be a man with the same ideals and goals as you. He even implements excellent "green" policies, forcing the stupid and wasteful populace to conserve resources by shutting off their water and electricity at night. You would love to convince America to follow in Cuba's footsteps. At least for now, you would very much enjoy to improve relations with Fidel Castro. However, you still have a few square miles of his island walled off and pack with Marines pointing guns over the fence at his troops, and they're not there by any agreement that Fidel is happy about. Hmmm, it sure would improve relations and make Fidel really happy, and willing to work with us (not sure on WHAT, but there must be SOMETHING, I mean he's a very successful leader after all) if you extended an olive branch by handing over those few square miles and getting our imperialist Marines off of his island, right?

Sure, maybe I'm hopelessly paranoid. Maybe I'm a raving mad anticommunist (okay, definitely). Maybe I have an unrealistically dim view of Barack Hussein Obama. But do you honestly think that the man who ran for President on the basis of making friends with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad wouldn't even consider this?

Comment from Rod Thorsen on 2009-02-14

Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:52:46 -0600

How 'bout just sending them to Berkely CA? With any luck, they'll be so enthrolled with adoring attention and new, OK, things to do that they'll forget all about the promised virgins.

Comment from Parrothead Jeff on 2009-02-13

Fri, 13 Feb 2009 23:07:16 -0600

OK, some may not like it, but I think I've got a wonderful place to put these guys.

Nevada.

More specifically, the Nellis Range.

I'd like to put 'em at Groom Lake, Tonopah Test Range, or the Nevada Test Site, but there'd be too many problems with that. So if those places are out of the running, I'd say a brand new site a ways north of Rachel. Someplace like this: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=rachel,+nv&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=38.092988,92.8125&ie=UTF8&ll=38.808948,-116.38813&spn=0.073303,0.181274&t=h&z=13

I've been out to Rachel and a few other places in Nevada. There ain't much there. The site in Google Maps I just linked to would do nicely, I think. Remote. Blazing hot in summer. Freezing in the winter. Big mountains all around. Oh, did I mention it's remote?

I wouldn't build a single road into the place. I'd air drop the tractors and such, build an airstip for C-130s and C-17s, and treat it like Gitmo West. Once the facility was completed, I'd put in an "Area 51" security system with the remote cameras, seismic sensors, and roving patrols.

I'd love to see the protestors try to get in there. I'd also like to see some sort of "rescue party" try to get in. It wouldn't happen.

Of course, I also have no problem with storing nuclear waste at Yucca Mountain...

Comment from H H on 2009-02-13

Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:15:59 -0600

I was USAF, attended the DB 1987 through 1997. Got a civilian unhappy because he had to come in the last day of the year to out-process me. The only person he had to release that whole week and he was wanting to stay at home on unofficial vacation. I was also part of the work stoppage-minor prison riot- back in 92 or 93. It has been so long I don't even remember which year it happened. Now, I work, pay bills and hope Obama fails in pretty much everything he attempts. I knew guys in prison who did less that his appointees have gotten away with.

Comment from Neffi on 2009-02-13

Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:04:23 -0600

H H- did you go to the DB from FT Hood (2nd AD) in '78? Cuz I knew someone with your initials who did...

Comment from John (not the armorer) on 2009-02-13

Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:24:50 -0600

Maybe some of The One's nefarious acquaintances from Chicago could assist with "taking care of" the prisoners.

Rezko has friends who can help.

Comment from H H on 2009-02-13

Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:47:28 -0600

Apologies for double post.

Comment from H H on 2009-02-13

Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:37:11 -0600

Ex DB graduate here. The old DB used to average one escape every two years or so while I was housed there. The idiots figured out how to escape but not what to do after that so they got caught pretty quickly. Professional terrorists would find it a breeze to disappear once they got outside the walls. We once had a NCO who had taught the E & E course for the Army get sent to the DB and the staff freaked over his presence. Please imagine having a few hundred hard core death worshippers housed at Ft Leavenworth.
Would the locals be allowed concealed carry for protection and civil security?
Ancient Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times."

Comment from Marvin on 2009-02-13

Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:36:20 -0600

Gitmo is the best place to hold these folks.
Now, there is a nice little island prison in SF Bay, pretty much escape proof......

Comment from ry on 2009-02-13

Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:17:03 -0600

Many birds with one stone. Why not build a whole brand new facility in the middle of nowhere to suit? It's 'shovel ready' and all that. Obama wants to build infrastructure and put people to work, well, here's something that requires roads, sewer, buildings, electrical, and the whole nine yards. I suggest Montana. Not because I dislike Montana, on the contrary I was a few minutes from going to college in Hellena some years back. I like the place. But it's also not densely populated, is fairly remote over most of the area, and hence doesn't therefor offer much in the way of places to hide in plain sight.

Never happen(slinks away before the barrage of beer steins, shot glasses, and other drinking paraphenalia hits and the boos start)

Comment from Heartless Libertarian on 2009-02-13

Fri, 13 Feb 2009 16:47:35 -0600

I was thinking that Fort Greely would be a great place, but Johnston Atoll works well for me, too.

Comment from RetRsvMike on 2009-02-13

Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:19:23 -0600

well, my original idea back in the late fall of '01 was to use Johnston Atoll, so there's always that option still on the table.

Comment from Boquisucio on 2009-02-13

Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:54:22 -0600

Well you know Prince George's County, being Rep. Steny Hoyer's home county (and Michael Steele's too BTW), I'm sure that will do just find, if Leavenworth gets its chunk of the pie. God knows that Hoyer pumps plenty of pork down that way.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-02-13

Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:54:12 -0600

I don't think so, Argent. They gave themselves plenty of time to get it done, and the Congress can block a decision simply by refusing to allow funds to be spent on it.

We'll see.

Comment from Argent on 2009-02-13

Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:03:10 -0600

I beleive with those orders the decision on where they will go has already been made.