Comments for Epic Fail leads to a fascinating history lesson

Epic Fail leads to a fascinating history lesson

2009-01-24T14:48:16Z

That this sucks, there is no doubt. And it's an Epic Fail.

Click the photograph or this link to visit the website where this and many other interesting photographs of the Alaska Territorial Guard may be found.

On to the story. As Cannoneer #4 put it in email: Octagenarian Veterans getting messed with, PA epic fail.

True enough.

But as I read it thus far, the Army is correct, which puts them on the horns of a dilemma, doesn't it? Especially since they're correct now but were apparently incorrect before...

Once they determine they screwed up, they're legally bound to stop the payments - and I don't know what your experience in the system is - but any time I was responsible for cash, once you figured out the problem, if you *didn't* stop the payments, then whoever allowed the payments to continue could be held personally accountable for the dollars expended. At least they didn't compound the error by demanding recoupment of the payments, so *someone* in HRC (Human Resources Command - what a wimp nomenclature. PERSCOM, Personnel Command, was just fine, y'know?) was awake at the switch and knew they'd just been handed a shite sandwich.

Looks to me like this is being handled as it should be, under the law (as I understand it). Since the failure is in the wording of the legislation and the Army's initial read of it, the solution is legislative as well, if the intent of Congress was to provide retirement benefits, not just veteran's benefits. Not the same thing. I know, I get both.

But as always, the little guy is the one grinding in the gears of the bureaucrat's machine.

Heh. Bunch of 80 year old Alaskan veterans who provided unpaid service get jerked around by the system, in ways that have a significant day-to-day impact.

Timothy Geithner, who couldn't be bothered to pay taxes on remuneration he recieved for paid service on his part... gets a new job with vast powers involving money.

Oh, the two things are not directly related. Nonetheless,...

Karma is not balanced here.

Here are some related links - I really recommend the story at Stonekettle Station - which gives great background on the Alaska Territorial Guard.

Territorial Guard never should have received retirement, Army says

Army cuts off retirement pay for members of World War II Alaska militia

Army ends retirement payments to Alaska Territorial Guard members

Army cuts off pay for WWII Alaska militia veterans

Alaska Territorial Guard Members Receive Official Discharge

Comment from Justthisguy on 2009-01-26

2009-01-27T00:28:14Z

The Bundesrepublik got some good PR by looking up all of the surviving Askaris who had fought for them in East Africa under Von Lettow-Vorbeck, and making sure that each got a pension, not long ago. Oh, if only L-59 had not had to turn back! Sorry, I'm a sucker for any story with Zeppelins in it. They are SO cool and wonderful, and SO impractical, it just warms my cockles.

Comment from Rod Thorsen on 2009-01-26

2009-01-26T19:47:28Z

The movie's not to be taken serious and in to many ways it's typical hollywood anti-Vietnam war. It does have a great cast and is just bizarre in style. Entertaining enough. The captured VW makes it for me.

www.imdb.com/title/tt0064137/

Comment from Josh on 2009-01-26

2009-01-26T18:08:52Z

Never seen it, should I add it to my Netflix list?

Comment from Rod Thorsen on 2009-01-25

2009-01-25T21:09:46Z

Josh - Love the VW, anyone remember the movie Castle Keep with Burt Lancaster? Just try sinking one of those.

Comment from Cannoneer No. 4 on 2009-01-25

2009-01-25T19:14:09Z

All students of history written by winners or losers should critically consider the bias and agenda of the historian. History is a weapon in the Culture War, and the version recorded in the contemporary media becomes the research material the historian relies upon. National narratives, the raison d'etre for defending it, are subject to manipulation.

Is there an imminent threat? Are the people who see it paranoid delusional wingnuts? Are the people who don't see it clueless, helpless sheep placidly awaiting their slaughter?

History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. The Obama administration is a limerick of the first Cinton administration. I don't really want to hear the Waco verse.

Comment from Cannoneer No. 4 on 2009-01-25

2009-01-25T18:46:21Z

The American Home Guard: The State Militia in the Twentieth Century‎

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-01-25

2009-01-25T18:36:59Z

Snerk. C'mon, #4. Now you're basically saying that any history not written by a loser is suspect.

Or, more accurately, any history not conforming to my views and beliefs is suspect.

Sigh.

That there have been good militias is indisputable.

But they tended to be better when there was an imminent threat. The militias declined in the early years of the Republic when the threat of angry natives receded.

They tend to enjoy a renaissance in times of perceived peril.

They tend to revert (especially unpaid ones) to fancy uniform social clubs in times of ease.

And that's not just history as written by the Regulars, #4.

And the demonization of the term militia was aided or abetted by the quality and behavior of those elements (that made the news) so beloved of the Clintonian era, the good ones out there notwithstanding.

Comment from Cannoneer No. 4 on 2009-01-25

2009-01-25T17:46:59Z

Who writes the history books, John?

10-4 on badge collectors or dilettantes. Those types are not unknown in the NG, or any other military or paramiltary group. Hell, I was a badge collector 40 years ago. I wore mine on a green sash.

The Regulars have always despised the Militia, like Airborne hates on legs. The ARNG is by law the Organized Militia, but it is in reality a federally funded, equipped, trained Reserve Component of the Total Force that Washington suffers the states to employ for internal emergencies if they aren't otherwise occupied overseas. If they are, their states are just SOL. That's what happened in Alaska. Happened to all states during the World Wars, which is why State Guards and Defense Forces outside of Federal control came about.

The demonization of the word "militia" by the Clinton Administration, the Brady Bunch, Southern Poverty Law Center and fellow travellers adversely effects our attitudes, behaviors and objective reasoning to this day.

How 'bout Sheriff's Posse Emergency Auxiliary Response as the new euphemism?

Comment from Argent on 2009-01-25

2009-01-25T15:02:30Z

Any purposeless group is riddled with problems. There has to be a driving focus otherwise the individual desires will exploit or pull the group apart.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-01-25

2009-01-25T13:46:19Z

#4 - decentralized, unorganized militias, absent a unifying threat or imminent purpose (CAP and volunteer fire departments come to mind) don't have a very good history, as they tend to get taken over and run by people who are badge collectors or dilettantes, who drive away the dedicated ones.

The unreliability of state militias is one reason why... the National Guard was formed.

I don't see the underlying structural problem as having improved any.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-01-25

2009-01-25T13:32:18Z

Rod - If the mistake is that they volunteered decades ago and therefore can now be marginalized, the *usual* pattern, over the centuries with the Federal Gov't is exactly the opposite. Wait until there are few left, then otstentatiously open up a small account for them.

The Bonus Army forcing the creation of the VA was a break in the tradition, resumed, with the "atomic veterans," and the guys who were exposed to chemical weapons (that one just recently underway), Agent Orange, and, of course, Gulf War Syndrome.

One can understand why the pushback on Agent Orange and GWS, it really does take a while to establish a good data baseline upon which to then hinge significant sums of downstream money, but even when you accept that logic, it's hard to get around the guys and gals caught in the gearing.

All of which is one reason many of us have been fighting quietly (and the MSM, grant them this, regardless of what you believe their motivations to be), along with the truly caring professional medical staff of the DoD and VA, to gain and maintain awareness of TBI, as it's not one of the injuries (though it was there, it just got lumped in there with combat fatigue/PTSD) because we've got troops suriving combat events that in the past were usually fatal, and therefore the VA and DoD medical systems weren't set up to deal with them and had little historical data to work from. And, being ponderous bureaucracies, were slow to detect and adapt, since those systems (especially the VA) and the budget process that sustain them, are essentially reactive, not proactive, in nature.

Comment from Cannoneer No. 4 on 2009-01-25

2009-01-25T06:25:04Z

Yeah, Rod, I was approached to join the GSDF. I declined the honor. An unarmed militia is no militia at all. SDF's have great untapped potential for Homeland Security, but between the lawfare over liability and the professionals' fear of competition from unpaid amateurs, most states aren't doing much. TXSG seems to be an exception.

Maybe local emergency response needs to be decentralized below state level. County Home Guard irregular MP companies, engineer companies, aid stations, CBRNE detection and survey teams, etc. Resilient communities have the makings of their own Homeland Defense organic to the population.

We recently saw the New York Unorganized Naval Miltia in action on the Hudson River.

Comment from Rod Thorsen on 2009-01-25

2009-01-25T06:21:11Z

Thanks again

Was the Territorial Governor appointed by the Federal government or elected into office locally? I only ask this due to percieved juristiction. Once compensation is freely offered (even to volunteers) and given, after the fact, should it then be unilaterally withdrawn and why. If mistakenly offered and then withdrawn for one group, what is the differance with other groups that it was given to and then not withdrawn from. If the mistake is that they volunteered decades ago and therefore can now be marginalized, what does that say about volunteering now. Will this apply to all cases. I don't know what it would be or how would this play with other other groups that did/are recieving simular compensation. If it's just a paperwork thing, well and good, easy to fix. After all we pay those folks way too much already.

Arrrgh!!! I'm a recovering Californian, I'm a recovering Californian, I'm a recovering Californian, just keep repeating that to myself, mabbe no one will notice.

Hey!! There's some Farmer in these new books too!!!

Comment from Cannoneer No. 4 on 2009-01-24

2009-01-25T05:32:35Z

Rod, the ATG wasn't "called up," volunteers were recruited by agents of the Territorial Governor with, if I understand correctly, no expectation of pay.

I don't know what the command relationship with the federal armed forces was. Major Marston was sent by General Buckner's HQ to be the Territorial Governor's military aide.

www.akhistorycourse.org/articles/article.php?artID=172

Comment from Rod Thorsen on 2009-01-24

2009-01-25T04:34:44Z

Cannoneer, thanks for the update. I'm likey missing something, but if these folks are called up and are under federal command and control, doesn't that count for something other then grabbing ones ankles? Given prior examples, of course.

Comment from Rod Thorsen on 2009-01-24

2009-01-25T03:16:49Z

As for State Defence Forces go, and I'm speaking as a former Canadian (tho once subject of the Crown, always subject of the Crown, actually gladly) and as a recovering Californian. I was once approached by the AG of Kern County to join the California State Militia (google it, http://californiamilitia.com/index.html), the real state sponsered and controlled one, not the the MSM version of such things. Alaska has one also and if I were younger and in better shape I'd go for it, it's actually active in SAR, etc. I was told that, as an actual veteran, I would be an officer (yeah right, I'm one of the folks thats happy to have those other folks around to deal with that kinda stuff). All time and expenses to be mine until called up. Keep in mind this was during "Moonbeams" term in office. I'd considered it until I found out what the mission was to be, if needed (the whole issue of a federal employee with a state commitment like this was not an issue to me, I'm just not that complicated).

The mission was to turn Camp Roberts into an internment facility during times of civil unrest. By having the CSM staff this facility, the California National Guard would be free to roam the streets, as needed.

Comment from Grumpy on 2009-01-24

2009-01-25T00:52:24Z

@Armorer, Cannoneer #4 and I may not agree on everything, on this, we agree. This was a total PA failure, not just for those octogenarians, but for our future Military. How you view this, depends a great deal on your position, standing upright or bent over grabbing your ankles. The latter always receive everything, but benefits. You know what they say about paybacks. Remember one thing, those old pharts are creative, they know more ways to get it done.

As always, "Grumpy"

Comment from Rod Thorsen on 2009-01-24

2009-01-24T23:57:52Z

Thanks John.

Sarah has stepped up, that's how I first heard of this. And, yeh, when it becomes public falling back on the wordage is always the default.

I do have confidence this will be resolved to the good. I believe the Phillipine Scouts to be the example I couldn't quite remember. Thanks again.

I also recognize that others are more involved in the details of such things then I, thank God for that. Certainatly more currant also.

Now, in a vain attempt to distract, the kind mail man (not quite PC, should the title be person person?) just delivered the entire 10 issure set of Beyond Fantasy fiction from '53 and '54. Nothing gets one through a long, dark winter like some vintage pulp science fiction. Classic Sturgeon, Knight, Bixby, Asimov, Bloch, Dick, et al. Just doesn't get any better.

Comment from Cannoneer No. 4 on 2009-01-24

2009-01-24T23:39:55Z

Turn a loose of my comment in your approval queue.

Comment from Cannoneer No. 4 on 2009-01-24

2009-01-24T23:33:33Z

Found this on Google Books -- The Tundra Army: Patriots of Arctic Alaska

The War Department had federalized the Alaska National Guard and sent them to Washington State before Pearl Harbor, so when the war started Alaska had lots to defend and not many defenders. So far as I can tell from googling, the ATG was never mustered in to Federal service and was never in a pay status. There were apparently 21 staff officers of the ATG getting paid by somebody, (Army Finance I suspect, if these staff officers were detached from the Army) but the Territorial Guards joined up with no expectation of drawing pay.

What appears from my very distant observation post to be a push by Alaska politicians to get veteran's benefits for a very small and rapidly dwindling group of local heroes has turned into a charlie foxtrot. Better to have never paid them a dime than to put them on the pay roll only to cut them off like that.

Maybe this whole sad story will raise awareness among the rams in the flock concerned with Homeland Security that their National Guard may not always be around. Thus the need for State Defense Forces.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-01-24

2009-01-24T22:59:46Z

First up - no, I don't think this is someone using the Army to do some cheap payback at Palin.

If nothing else, it gives Governor Palin a chance to be a hero, along with the Codel.

I think this is exactly what it looks like - during a review, someone said, "Hey, this says VA, not DoD. That means we don't have the authority to pay it." And once you get something like that, in writing, as I noted before, paying it even if you want to pay it can start to be *your* problem, as you illegally disburse money, you are personally liable.

It's all great and good for everybody to say "C'mon, do the right thing!" when you aren't on the hook for potentially tens of thousands.

The recognition of the error on the part of the Army lies in the not asking for recoupment.

I've not got all the details - and the devil is in the details. Discharges verify the termination of honorable service - and lay the basis for VA benefits, which are paid (including some forms of pension, such as for the Phillipine Scouts) by the VA, not the Services. It sounds like they got the verbiage wrong in the law.

In fact, this whole thing could be the result of someone doing *exactly* what you guys are suggesting should be done - someone said, "This is clearly what they meant, even if they didn't say it right" and started the payments.

Then, some years later someone else comes along and says, "Hey, waitaminnit! The wording is wrong and we don't have the authority to pay!"

And, again, the Octogenarians are the ones caught in the gears.

Comment from Rod Thorsen on 2009-01-24

2009-01-24T22:29:03Z

Armorer, I just reread your original post. My comment about the interpretation and application of laws did not apply to you, my apologies if it sounded like it did. The point I was hoping to make was that paying these folks for their service is the right thing to do, even if techniclly illegal (still not sure about that given their official discharges). Someone in the past made that connection to ensure they got retirment pay. Now someone has gone through some effort to find otherwise, for a very small savings.

To paraphase, I don't recall who, if obeying laws is the moral thing to do, sometimes one's morals must be put aside to do what's right.

Comment from Rod Thorsen on 2009-01-24

2009-01-24T22:01:59Z

I first heard about the retirement pay issue with the Alaska Territorial Guard yesterday when the local news told the story. The big part of that is Sarah's working to change these laws to get them paid again. IIRC other groups have been in simular situations and the laws were changed for the good. Perhaps someone here can clarify my, admittedly, rather limited memory on this.

The application of laws too often depend on who is doing the interpretation and what the desired results might be.

As an aside and not to sound too conspiricy minded, I'd been wondering since the results of our national election, if there would be some sort of strike back at Sarah and Alaska.

Comment from BillT on 2009-01-24

2009-01-24T21:33:36Z

Loved the Bug. Only car engine I was ever able to pick up and walk away with without struggling to keep my footing...

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-01-24

2009-01-24T21:16:52Z

Six of us just picked it up and carried it over to the pond.

Comment from BillT on 2009-01-24

2009-01-24T20:48:06Z

We disassembled our RA's Bug and re-assembled it on the roof of the gym.

Took eight of us four friggin' hours...

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2009-01-24

2009-01-24T20:35:35Z

That looks like the RA's VeeDub after I and my fellow football players were done with it...

Comment from Josh on 2009-01-24

2009-01-24T19:58:08Z

Now where was that...oh here it is!

Comment from BillT on 2009-01-24

2009-01-24T19:23:03Z

Why isn't there more violence in Congress like there was in the 19th century?

Because the all men know the womyn can beat the crap out of them and all the womyn are afraid that if they do, Teddy Kennedy will be assigned as their driver...

Comment from Josh on 2009-01-24

2009-01-24T19:09:03Z

Congress needs to stop dicking around with useless garbage and do something useful, like fixing this NOW.

I think we need to institute some rule where we get to horsewhip our representatives for dereliction of duty, like ignoring this kind of thing. Why isn't there more violence in Congress like there was in the 19th century?

Comment from Attila of Argghhh! on 2009-01-24

2009-01-24T19:05:51Z

Classic case of what's correct over what's right. The Army will always go for what's correct and, alas, in my experience, it will even go for what's incorrect as long as it negatively affects someone it doesn't like (in this case it's not animosity, fortunately, just bureaucratic buffoonery)...which is why we have civilian elected officials to make sure it does what's right. I'm fairly certain the Alaskan congressional delegation wil unf**k this most rikki tik.

It's also why we have Army bloggers with BS flag unfurled and ready to be waved at this nonsense.