Senior Official Offers to Quit in Mumbai AttacksHow many US government officials, at any level, offered to resign after 9/11? Admittedly, our government doesn't have this as a cultural aspect, unlike the Brits, and, seemingly, the Indians, who's government was shaped by the Brits in ways different from ours.
MUMBAI, India — With an anguished Indian public angrily questioning government leaders in the wake of the deadly terror attacks on Mumbai, the leader of the state government offered to step down on Monday.
The chief minister of Maharashtra State, Vilasrao Deshmukh, a member of the governing Congress party, said at a press conference that he was accepting “moral responsibility” for the attacks. Party leaders were considering his offer to resign. Mumbai is the capital of Maharashtra State.
Earlier in the day, his deputy, R.R. Patil, officially stepped down. Mr. Patil’s departure and Mr. Deshmukh’s offer came a day after the country’s top domestic security official, Home Minister Shivraj Patil, resigned in disgrace over the failure to thwart or quickly contain the horrific attacks that left at least 188 dead.
But one also wonders, when reading this bit about student ethics, whether our moral relativism and (to me) excessive indulgence of self-esteem hasn't caused some real rot, too.
Students lie, cheat, steal, but say they're goodHeh. I dunno. A quick search (very quick, I'm headed to the airport shortly for a trip to visit alphabet agencies in the DC area this week) didn't produce much data for earlier generations of students on this topic, so it's hard to make a comparison among the generations, just as I'm probably guiltly of making a correlation is causation error in linking the two things. Still, culture matters.
David Crary, Ap National Writer – NEW YORK – In the past year, 30 percent of U.S. high school students have stolen from a store and 64 percent have cheated on a test, according to a new, large-scale survey suggesting that Americans are too apathetic about ethical standards.
Educators reacting to the findings questioned any suggestion that today's young people are less honest than previous generations, but several agreed that intensified pressures are prompting many students to cut corners.
"The competition is greater, the pressures on kids have increased dramatically," said Mel Riddle of the National Association of Secondary School Principals. "They have opportunities their predecessors didn't have (to cheat). The temptation is greater."
I'm the one calling for more General officer scalps, after all.
Michael Josephson, the institute's founder and president, said he was most dismayed by the findings about theft. The survey found that 35 percent of boys and 26 percent of girls — 30 percent overall — acknowledged stealing from a store within the past year. One-fifth said they stole something from a friend; 23 percent said they stole something from a parent or other relative.Hey, after all, oral sex isn't sex, not really. A President taught us that.
"What is the social cost of that — not to mention the implication for the next generation of mortgage brokers?" Josephson remarked in an interview. "In a society drenched with cynicism, young people can look at it and say 'Why shouldn't we? Everyone else does it.'"
Forty-two percent said they sometimes lie to save money — 49 percent of the boys and 36 percent of the girls.That one I'm guessing the IRS could confirm got passed directly from their parents...
Here's the really depressing part - and the source for my snark about excessive indulgence of self-esteem:
Despite such responses, 93 percent of the students said they were satisfied with their personal ethics and character, and 77 percent affirmed that "when it comes to doing what is right, I am better than most people I know.If that's how they view the world about them - well, perhaps we've got problems in River City. Of course, absent comparative data from previous generations, it's hard ot gauge the extent.
Now Nijmie Dzurinko, executive director of the Philadelphia Student Union, observed that the findings were not at all reflective of the inner-city students she works with.
"A lot of people like to blame society's problems on young people, without recognizing that young people aren't making the decisions about what's happening in society," said Dzurinko, 32. "They're very easy to scapegoat."And she's correct. If there's a problem, it's with the adults and the standards and examples they set. Hence the "oral sex" question, and the opener to this post.
Then there's Peter Anderson, principal of Andover High School in Massachusetts, as reported by David Crary of the AP.
"This generation is leading incredibly busy lives — involved in athletics, clubs, so many with part-time jobs, and — for seniors — an incredibly demanding and anxiety-producing college search."Heh. Gosh, I was a football player, wrestler, and track and field jock. I was on the speech and debate team. And I managed to find a school to attend, too. And, gosh, I worked in a nursery, hobby shop, restaurant, and a fast food joint, too, while in high school. But my parent's didn't let me work during the school year. And my jockish activities were tied to academic performance. And there is one thing I was really sure of - I didn't want to have any meetings at school where my parents were dragged in over an allegation of cheating. Oddly enough, my reaction to that wasn't one of... "So, I better not get caught, then!"
Heh. There isn't anything wrong with the kids that isn't a result of the environment we, as adults, have created for them. I would note that a significant number of parents have made that connection, too - hence the popularity of home schooling.
Which is a rational response to an individual situation, but one that leaves the larger picture unaltered.
So, how did we respond to 9/11? Well, let's see. The Director of the CIA got the Presdidential Medal of Freedom...
Okay - you may commence firing.
In Japan, he would have had the common decency to "fall on his sword".
I also think we are more open about our immorality these days. In the past all the vile activities of humanity were largely superfically hidden at a social level. It made for a less trustworthy more sinister time I think. Now it hangs out all all it's vulgar glory, all but encouraging more of it. I'm not really sure what's worse. I do think we have a lot of poor role models.
Blaming young people is a favourite of the older and indeed often more conservative. Scapegoats are always people less like you are.
I also feel someone should be deffending oral sex. I just don't know how to do that under the ROE's.
When I was in college, I majored in chemistry, but I also took, as an elective, a course that was required for some education majors. The course was interesting, the professor was fine, the workload was light, but the students were a mess.
They did not read the assignments before class. They could not find basic definitions in the text. They whined and argued and begged for hints about what would and would not be in the upcoming tests. They collectively flunked extremely easy quizzes, and then railed at me for "blowing the curve." These were juniors and seniors, reputedly some of the very best. They are now at an age where some of them are setting the tone and expectations for entire schools.
I think any of them would be indignant at the thought that they would teach kids to cheat, but I would expect that they might well do it, just the same.
Apparently, nobody in this country reads or teaches Josef Conrad's "Lord Jim" anymore.
Because in their eyes, they're *not* less honest -- Moral Relativity 101.
Despite such responses, 93 percent of the students said they were satisfied with their personal ethics and character, and 77 percent affirmed that "when it comes to doing what is right, I am better than most people I know."
Which either means that
a. we'd have *really* been rocked on our heels if they'd interviewed that other 23% or
b. there's a whole bunch of incipient sociopaths running around.
What was Xerxes' line in The 300 -- "I am kind..."?
Fishmugger, your attempts to continually hijack this thread to the low road earn you a hairy eyeball from the Charlotte Airport Gate C15...
I was deliberately vague - I suspect it's along the lines of how Argent thinks it might be, or 11B40, but still think (and am hoping some of you will go find data...) that setting of examples by adults, even at times to the point of hypocrisy, matters.
You can deal with issues of hypocrisy when they arise. Heh. In some respects, hypocrisy seems to be the only standard of behavior the Left has an interest in.
They'll loudly call for a right-winger to step down when caught in hypocritical circumstances - and usually, the right-winger accedes, that tool Larry Craig notwithstanding.
But their own... not so much.
They do understand power so much better than the Right.
And even if that standard existed, we should not be so judgmental as to deem one better than another, lest the "inferior" one suffer grave damage to his or her self-esteem.
Thus, we are all cheapened to make everyone "equal" and our incentive to excel and to achieve is destroyed.
Welcome to the Workers' Paradise. Death to the Bourgoisie! Vive la revolution!
Oh, and after Bush, being Left Behind. /snerk.
Yeah. I'm still waiting for the Dems to call for Rangel's resignation. <not holding breath>
I don't see the connection between a lack of morals in children and our not holding someone accountable to 9/11. America rewards cheaters above all as long as they succeed, and if they cheat enough they might even get a $700 billion check from the government. 9/11 or Mumbai's root causes are not solvable by any number of righteous government employees (well...maybe if they were all soldiers heh).
I'll agree someone needs to get to firing hordes of incompetent officials in Washington and elsewhere, but it should be for actual incompetence, not some imaginary benchmark of moral fiber, or because something bad happened on their watch.
said that there is a great chance of a correlation equals causation fallacy in my strawman.
A direct link between moral lapses and kid's ethics and the failure to hold people accountable for the failures of 9/11? Not in that sense.
But is it grasping too much to suggest that they are symptoms of a similar issue?
There's a few things that I wonder about US ethics. Keep in mind before you overreact I'm simply illustrating the very dregs of US ethics, it does have it's good side. One of them is commonly talked about and is also about role models. Namely your high profile people, in particular 'Hollywood'. It seems the more illegal and unethical the behaviour the less likely they will feel any consequences. The overriding message is that the US legal system is inferior and most particularly protects the wealthy and powerful. A point driven home by the existence of Guantanamo. Namely the US legal system is too weak to deal with these people. At least in the eyes of the government and military.
The second is also about high profile people. That is the incredible power of sex scandals in the US. It is like seeing the no sex please, we're British all over again. While embezzlement, theft and even murder can be cleanly gotten away with the merest hint a politician is gay or had an affair is enough to kill them off. Not only that, while places like Fannie Mae et al con and rort without repercussion causing real hardship to real people the US doesn't care till the train runs them over. Instead it discusses scandals. It's like mainstream us media, and even worse the Americans themselves, are tabloid.
I also wonder about the individualism. I know the group thing is not liked so much for commie connotations but really individualism can be taken too far. The idea it's morally ok to cheat, steal etc as long as no one finds out and it serves me. It's a vile ethic to cherish. It's a core of selfishness. I know not all Americans embrace such crud but far too many do. It's these Ambassadors who do harm to US image abroad every day.
Another one is the China-like saving face issue. At the top levels of government the emphasis is not on being effective it's on saving face when there's a disaster that in any way rubs the wrong way publicly. This is way broader than just the US and might well be impossible to fix. But the result is terrible. Denials or scapegoats are made and the idiots running the show retain the ability to continue their idiocy, usually doing nothing to confront the problem at hand.
Fdcol63 talks about moral relativism. It recalled to my mind my experience with school and university marking systems. Some of you may know this but I suspect many may not.
Most marking systems are completely relativistic. They are marked in absolute terms first though still relative to the test difficulty. Then they are usually moderated. Most of the time simply by shifting to an average position so that everyone shifts marks a bit up or down relative to the entire marking body which might just be a class, or a school or an entire region, such as a state or even the nation. Sometimes it's more complex and might include a softer approach to the disadvantaged schools in a region for example. Or sometimes other marks may be influential.
What's missing in all this relativism? The strive for improvement and excellence.
Ethics and morals, and we just put in one of the biggest liars of are time in at Secretary of State . "There shooting at me Hillary "and you think are children are concerned about liying and morals.Its just the opposite ,Lie, cheat , steal, and be rewarded. Thats the liberal mantra.
Spanky
Not much else to add, considering above posts. ;)
More disturbing, Argent, is the very real drive by some educators to remove the whole concept of "excellence" because it will make those unable or unwilling feel bad about themselves, because some people are simply unable to grasp the difference between competing and achieving.
It's a typical response from authories these days. Don't face the real problem, no instead try to put up barriers, rules and restrictions. It's cowardly and infuriating.
Almost always, it's more about the betrayal of trust and the emotional damage done to the other spouse, and the exposure of that unknowing spouse to dangerous health issues like STD's and the potential complication of an unwanted pregnancy / adoption / abortion that ultimately has profound effects on both spouses and their relationships with other family and friends.
What many apologists describe as nothing more than a "private sexual matter" is anything but.