Comments for An interesting discussion that might drag in some lurkers...

An interesting discussion that might drag in some lurkers...

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 08:54:50 -0600

Morbuck 54, a new (and perhaps not long-term) reader had this to say on the "Lions and tigers and Soldier's Oh my!" post: I just wandered in, and I realize that this blog is essentially by and for military people. But I got to say that spreading your message to us non-military types is not helped by all the acronyms. Yes, you spell out the names, and that makes it clearer. And yes, in the end, I unders and your basic point. But I'm feeling like it gave me more of a headache than it was really worth. I don't really understand your world - and I'll venture to say that I try harder than most people. But I'll also venture to say that you don't understand mine. Perhaps this is one of the downsides to an all volunteer professional military.

Comment from BillT on 2008-10-06

Mon, 06 Oct 2008 23:55:30 -0600

Took me forever to find out that "LOL" meant "Laugh Out Loud."

Didden have a frame of reference, since I don't, usually...

Comment from Cortillaen on 2008-10-06

Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:04:22 -0600

Speaking as a soon-to-be AFROTC (Air Force Reserve Officer Training Course) cadet (bloody "special student" status...), the problems I've had with acronyms are mostly resolved by simply being in the environment for a while. It's a usage thing: The more often your brain has to recall what a specific series of letters means, the easier it becomes. The only real problems I've run into are with a few obscure/arcane ones and the occasional acronym with multiple meanings (ie. POC being both Point-of-Contact and Professional Officer Course; heh, even ROTC's got its own bits of jargon), but a quick email tends to iron the kinks out, especially with a great commander, whom I fully intend to continue tapping for advice and literature suggestions even now that he's retired.

Still, I remember how little I could follow in my first couple of months, and I'm trying to put everything I can find into a single file for ease of searching, so if anyone has any more lists, especially branch-specific, I'd appreciate it. If I ever get it to the point of distribution to other cadets, I'll make sure people get referenced. ;-)

Comment from Leslie on 2008-10-06

Mon, 06 Oct 2008 17:59:26 -0600

Strange vocabulary is in all of our different worlds. When I talk about my livestock to city people, they don't have a clue what I am saying. I may as well be speaking a foreign language (Yikes - I am!)

Comment from XBradTC on 2008-10-06

Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:45:25 -0600

EricJ, much like IT, even within the same service, there are bits of jargon that are very specific. Light infantry guys speak a language that Bradley guys don't understand and who the heck knows what those Stryker guys are talking about... Then there are the geographical differences. There's an argot for Germany, Korea, guys in Colorado speak with a different flavor than the Texas folks, and the Hawaiians have their own specific dialect...

Comment from Joe Amelang on 2008-10-06

Mon, 06 Oct 2008 09:03:31 -0600

As I sit here at USACGSC..... What bugs me about Morbuck54's comment was his assertion that we live in 2 different worlds. Does he think that the all volunteer force was imported from some other planet? Perhaps he should stick around a little longer and see that we are his brothers and sisters, neighbors and friends. We just have, or had, a different calling. Besides, acronyms are fun.....
BSA.....
Boy Scouts of America
British Sterling Auto
Basic Sight Assembly

The last instance of BSA is the main component of the ISU that sits on top of the M2/3 IFV.... but y'all knew that already.

Comment from EricJ on 2008-10-06

Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:49:18 -0600

Milspeak has its own flavor and an earthy honesty I appreciate. I just look stuff up.

What I can't understand is how anyone remembers all of them--even those within the same service. I work in IT. I gave up long ago. Each specialty within IT has developed its own set of acronyms--many using the same letters.

My memory for that sort of thing (and for names) just plain $*cks. Dale Carnegie didn't help. My poor attempt to use mnemonics is some of the best unintentional comedy you have ever heard. I have blurted them out and destroyed meetings that way. Now that I'm over 40, I blame it on age.

Comment from BillT on 2008-10-05

Sun, 05 Oct 2008 14:37:36 -0600

Yeah, flag stands were something else we were authorized but never got.

So we made our own out of scrap 2x4s.*

*2x4: noun, common usage. Refers to finished lumber (generally white pine) nominally 2" in depth and 4" in width -- length most commonly 96".

*heh*

Comment from The Armorer on 2008-10-05

Sun, 05 Oct 2008 13:38:28 -0600

Upon review - the flag stands! Thief! Thief! ;^)

Comment from XBradTC on 2008-10-05

Sun, 05 Oct 2008 11:39:20 -0600

Flag on the play, XBrad - use of unexplained acronyms, TO&E. Loss of 5 yards, repeat the down!

Well, since I already posted on what a TO&E is on my blog, I wasn't going to repeat everything. I want your readers to come to my place, after all. I think maybe I'll throw the red flag and get an instant replay review. :)

Comment from FbL on 2008-10-05

Sun, 05 Oct 2008 08:30:28 -0600

If, however, you want to communicate with civilians that are inclined to be curious about the military, you might want to make it easier to understand.

Absolutely, that's why I said we need to be more careful about defining acronyms and jargon. But it seemed to me the complaint was not that acronyms/jargon weren't explained, but that it took too much effort to read. And on that latter count I don't have much sympathy. He wasn't saying it was like a secret club, he was saying it was tiring to read the very explanations themselves.

Comment from Fishmugger on 2008-10-05

Sun, 05 Oct 2008 07:23:06 -0600

Brad,

My friend's nephew is a Wolfhound on his second tour in Iraq. The second very much different then the first; but we'll never read about it. His comander kept everyone updated via emails; a very cool feature today.

I think the proper nomenclature is the 27th of the 25th, 27th Infantry Regiment, 25th Infantry Division, Schofield Barracks, Hawaii. Not bad duty for a kid from CT; neat pick up from his re-up bonus for his surfboard. Mahowlo Broda.

Comment from jon spencer on 2008-10-05

Sun, 05 Oct 2008 07:13:53 -0600

Correction in my post, replace hand with had.
Coffee has not kicked in yet.

Comment from BillT on 2008-10-05

Sun, 05 Oct 2008 07:10:47 -0600

Hah. In the Guard, TO&E was known as the Wish List.

Authorized: 100% (but not funded)

On Hand: 75% (or less)

Comment from jon spencer on 2008-10-05

Sun, 05 Oct 2008 07:03:51 -0600

What is needed is a set of "Military for Dummies" books, one for each service.
I have said this before, maybe not on this blog.
This could be contracted out and paid for by the pentagon.
Then one could thump reporters on the head with a copy when they call a APC a tank or a FFG a battleship or any other simple / deliberate mistakes.
Every services recruiting office should had out copies like candy.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2008-10-05

Sun, 05 Oct 2008 06:11:03 -0600

Flag on the play, XBrad - use of unexplained acronyms, TO&E. Loss of 5 yards, repeat the down!

Table of Organization and Equipment, the list of positions and the gear with which the incumbents perform the tasks.

Comment from XBradTC on 2008-10-05

Sun, 05 Oct 2008 01:10:31 -0600

...famous like the Wolfhounds...

Fishmugger says the magic words... NO FEAR ON EARTH BABY!!!

Hang in there. One of these years, I'll get around to the Marines TO&E. It ain't as bad as you might think.

Comment from Russ on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 23:30:14 -0600

Kaboom had a list in his sidebar of common acronyms that helped bridge the knowledge gap.
FBL, your point about Google is all well and good if you want to be a private club where the initiates must learn a new language to join. If, however, you want to communicate with civilians that are inclined to be curious about the military, you might want to make it easier to understand. The choice depends on your target audience.
It's like reading Dr. Thomas Sowell's early work, full of wisdom but it takes way to long to read due to needing a dictionary for every fifth word. I am busy, so if you are trying to communicate with me, (civilians), you need to make translation easy.

Comment from Fishmugger on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 22:07:32 -0600

Ha...I sell for a middleware software house and if you want acronyms try taking what a technogeek just told you and explain it to a cutomer. SGL db for the ERP in GMP or GAMP or even GAAMP which is the same but different.

It's the "in clear" stuff I have fun with even after reading Clancy, Coyle, Coontz, Bond etc. How many people in a squad, squads to a platoon, platoons to a company, companies to a Battalion. And if you're a Cav unit its troops, and then tanks to a platoon or guns to a battery. And the difference between a Mech unit and light Infantry. And Regiments are no longer in Vogue unless it was famous like the Wolfhounds. And as a former Air Force E-5 (3 years, 8 months, 4 days) I don't even try to figure out the Marine TO. And (sorry Maggie) trying to tell the difference between a Burke Class Destroyer and an Agregeous Class one is beyond me.

But if you study the NFL, or NHL or whatever, you enjoy it more if you know what's going on. And I know they took that Red line out of the middle of the rink...I think. It just takes a little effort...and its worth it.

Comment from FbL on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 22:03:28 -0600

I want to find the mom of a soldier, or uncle or what have you, that doesn't understand half of what they hear. I want to be a translator.

Very cool, XBradTC!

Comment from XBradTC on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 19:27:49 -0600

I lucked out, John. Didn't have to pay Argent a dime. He was dumb enough to advertise for me without asking for pay up front.
The real reason my jargonation is so low was, as a grunt, I hate writing big words.
One of your readers sent me a long email asking about how best to interact on milblogs. She had some bad experiences with people telling her "it's a service thing, you wouldn't get it" which to me, kind of defeats the whole point of a milblog. I've got an audience of mostly military types, which is funny, because, as much as I love 'em, they aren't the target audience. I want to find the mom of a soldier, or uncle or what have you, that doesn't understand half of what they hear. I want to be a translator.

Comment from Maggie on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 18:51:49 -0600

FbL - Very nice!!!

Comment from RetRsvMike on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 17:14:01 -0600

JP 1-02, DOD Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms, 12 April 2001, as amended through 26 August 2008

google it, download it, consult it. you'll get the hang of it.

(JP stands for Joint Publication, DOD is Department of Defense)

Comment from GaMongrel on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:51:01 -0600

I've loved your blog Jonah - been reading it off and on for years(?)... lurking...

It's the military. It's always been full of acronyms. Well, at least in modern history. Who really wants to type or say the multi-syllabic long hand for MRLS when MRLS works just fine... or ELF... or HOTAS?

And who in business wants to type out EBITDA?

Bottom line, you've provided us civvies with a forum with which to sponge up on information and perspectives provided from someone who's been there. And if we have a question and can't google or wiki "it" to discover the acronym, we should do our part and speak up.

Maybe, to be more user friendly, when using an acronym include a hyperlink to a page further describing what you're talking about. Maybe a wikipedia or the like? Not to mention that seeing is believing. Quality footage or photos are always a plus. =)

Thanks for all you do here.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:19:13 -0600

HH! Long time, no comment, fella.

If you ever feel like doing up a post on the subject, I'll be happy to publish it!

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:15:35 -0600

Gad, Brad, how much did you pay Argent for the ad? ;^ )

Argent - someday, when one of us wins the lottery, you'll have to come visit, and we'll cure you of that "After all I don't have bangsticks to play with at home and have never come across one before." problem, as we've happily done for others.

Comment from HH on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:14:15 -0600

I unfortunately possess personal knowledge of a lesser known aspect of the military anacronym sets. Inmate at USDB years ago. United States Disciplinary Barracks, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Even the inmates have their own set of terms. Rarely useful for anyone else, but it exists.

Comment from FbL on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 15:03:10 -0600

As near as I can tell, the complaint is not that acronyms are not explained, but that the very use and explanation of the acronyms is burdensome to the reader.

As someone who just over four years ago didn't know anyone in the military, didn't (still don't) read military fiction, and was what I call "a total civilian," I will attempt to be polite...

Spelling out acronyms the first time they appear is something we should probably be more careful about when we write. However... it takes about 60 seconds with Google to either find the acronym itself (search: military NORTHCOM) or one of the many sites out there that translate standard military acronyms (search: miltiary acronym dicitionary). You can even find detailed acronym dictionaries for each service branch.

But as others have said, it's more than just acronyms. Although some services (Navy) are more challenging than others, all the services have a non-acronym vocabulary that must be learned. And so to even with what I've learned, I find I must at times rely on coxtent up to 30 percent of the time for understanding when I'm in a conversation comprised of professionals in a single service branch.

So if you want to learn something new, you're gonna have to stretch your brain a little. If you're intelligent enough to write that coherent and articulate note that started this post, you're intelligent enough to use the tools you've been given to learn something new--context, effort, Google, and polite requests when you're confused.

How the hell do you think I went in four years from totally ignorant civilian to someone who has had military wives tell me, "You know more acronyms/buzzwords than I do!"

Comment from BillT on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 14:56:58 -0600

Once I started adding comments, of course, the warm reception here cleared away that concern.

And bein' *hawt* didn't hurt, either...

Comment from Argent on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 14:31:01 -0600

I fully understand where you are coming from but really this is easy to convert to a general complaint about jargon. Whereever professionals delve they develop a jargon whether we talk about navy, marine, neurosurgury, aerospace, chemical engineering or what have you. That involves all those odd meanings, acronyms etc. It's simply a form of making the language more efficient internally with the drawback of external confusion.

Your point on spreading the message to non-military types is important. Some military blogs are keen to do just that and have to be mindful of their jargon otherwise the message just won't make it through. It's hard for some of them on this matter because it's their comfort zone and they are proud of their military service, and jargon is part of the whole deal. And of course they often hang out with other jargon users reinforcing its use.

It's fair to say I've been on here a while now and I still don't get parts of what they go on about, like when they talk about weaponry details but of course I have picked up a fair bit over time. One of the keys is interest really, one picks up any language better on an interested basis. So really one reason I don't get the weaponry details is lack of interest and that relates to the What's-in-it-for-me syndrome because I can't relate any use out of such. After all I don't have bangsticks to play with at home and have never come across one before.

However, it can be useful to understand some of these details. I came to the Castle for a fairly particular reason and I guess that could be summed up as challenging my beliefs and understanding the philosophy here. You can't do that without understanding at least some of the terminology.

There's two places that spring to my mind which help.

XBradTC runs a fairly informative blog with a much lower jargon hurdle.

There's also a few direct jargon sites. Like this marine one. Failing that you can just ask what the such and such means.

Actually, now that I think about English isn't much more than one big bag of jargon.

Comment from Maggie on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 13:39:15 -0600

"But I'm feeling like it gave me more of a headache than it was really worth"

*comment deleted for Rulez violation*

Further, there is nothing wrong with Navy jargon. I understand them. They understand me.

Comment from Barb on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 13:02:53 -0600

While I never served in the military, and haven't worked in any military associated civilian jobs, I don't find the acronym usage frustrating - especially since the guys here and many of the other milblogs I enjoy take the time to add definitions (and often context). I compensate in another way - by reading a smattering of military fiction. Perhaps some of that reading gave me enough basis to avoid the initial glazed-eyes impact, or maybe it's just a difference in motivation.

I will say that I read the occasional post here, and at Mudville Gazette and Blackfive, long before I started commenting. Largely because I felt that I was unqualified to insert my opinion. Once I started adding comments, of course, the warm reception here cleared away that concern :-)

Comment from jordan on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 12:51:40 -0600

I'd agree that it would behoove more civilians to become conversant in military terminology and culture, and appreciate the point that military members have experiences across the spectrum of disciplines in the civilian world, in addition to their military experience. This gives them a unique vantage point, as they participate in and understand both worlds, whereas civilians' lack of military knowledge can lead to all sorts of trouble. I don't think it's the nature of a "professional, all volunteer army" that is the reason for this, however. If you wanted to dig deep, you'd probably find that the problem is that major parts of civilian society have removed themselves from a greater understanding of the military, to their own detriment. Further, every field and career discipline has it's own "language" and acronyms in this day and age, whether you're a doctor, reporter, or accountant. The military exists to defend, fight and win. So, no surprise, it's culture, even the more frivolous aspects, follow from that imperative. The various acronym systems arise from the need for brevity in communications for speed or to reduce the chances of interception, or to reinforce clairity and simplicity to lower the risk of misinterpretation or mistakes. Military acronyms serve a necessary purpose -- a critical and practical one inseparable from the military's reason for existence -- and that should be the first lesson in Acronyms 101.

Comment from Boquisucio on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 12:25:07 -0600

Hey Unkabill, I'll gladly spread around some smatterings; just as long as they are not confused with leavings or casting os my fellow Latins.

Comment from jim b on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 12:22:32 -0600

The military is obviously wrong for having a "Code Tawk" language. We should speak in plain street english for those who never wanted to join.

For example the FDC should be called "Dem dooods in dat tent with them maps and stuff who calculate (can I say calculate?) shooting stuff for the big guns.

It is not to be confused with the "COC" which is as we all know "Dat otter tent where dem dooods give instructions and directions (can I use those words?) to them other dooods who are movin and shootin.

So I propose that Morbuck put himself in charge of decoding all military terms so we can all know what they mean.

Comment from fdcol63 on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 12:15:30 -0600

The DicNavAb

Sounds likes some kind of really "comprehensive" exercise machine. LOL

Comment from XBradTC on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 12:03:07 -0600

The Navy is so bad about jargonation, that the Naval Institute Press has to publish a work called The Dictionary of Naval Abbreviations, or, as the cover of the book says, The DicNavAb.

Comment from bad cat robot on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 10:53:16 -0600

what we need is a handy milspeak de-Acronymifier. It would take up all the Internet's electrons if everything were spelled out fully and explained each time, yet a way for civilians to check the details if confused would be useful. An automatic highlighting script, that links known acronyms to the definition? Something like Babelfish? It should be possible, and that way the jargon writers don't have to slow down.

Comment from AW1 Tim on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 10:32:12 -0600

Oh heck,

   It's even worse for the non-Navy types, since Navalese requires an entirely new dictionary for "regular" nomenclature, not just the acronyms. I was fortunate in coming from a long line of Navy men and so had some small abilityies with the vernacular. It was still a bit of a challenge at forst, however.

   Nowadays, the reverse is true. I find myself saying "I'm going topside" instead of "upstairs". Or talking about polishing the brightwork, turning on the overhead lamps, etc. Hard habit to break. :)

   As to Bill's comments, I agree. I can converse on all factors of ASW (anti-submarine warfare) or the evolving concepts of tactical doctrine between 1846 through the 1861 and 1872 Army Regulations, the employment of direct-fire artillery, the logistical needs of an 1861-1865 Army Corps, Medical Corps organisation and the field use of medical assets between 1846 through the 1st World War, The changing music scene in the US from the blues of the early 20th century through the blending of blues, gospel, country, and the rise of rock, the ancient musical scales and conepts (Greek and Roman), Shakespeare's History Plays, Classical Greek and Roman literature, The campaigns of Alexander, the works of Procopius, and other sorts of conversation starters :)

    You'll find a surprising level of education and intellect within military circles. It's what you get from an all volunteer force.

     Respects,

Comment from XBradTC on 2008-10-04

Sat, 04 Oct 2008 10:22:20 -0600

Morbuck, I don't know what John's "mission statement" is, but one of the reasons I started my blog was specifically to build a readership of civilians who didn't understand the military or the language of it. If you have any specific questions, please don't hesitate to click over and ask a question. I flatter myself to think that one of my few talents is to translate military to civilian.

Drop me a line at xbradtc at yahoo.com and I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have.