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Why Not Ossetian Independence?

AFSis and a few others, I imagine, are wondering why the Republic of Georgia would fight to keep a recalcitrant little spit of land?  Even to the point of taking on a much bigger adversary to keep it.  It is a good question.  Another good question is why would Russia want it?  In fact, by recognizing South Ossetia as joined to North Ossetia, a Russian territory, it brings that territory into Russia proper and gives them a territory where they can "legally" station thousands of more troops than they currently have under a "peace keeping" agreement.  What good are those troops?

First, we need a map.  A relief map with an indication of transportation hubs and water ways:


 
Historically, national borders have been drawn based on geographic markers: mountains, rivers, lakes, seas, etc, etc, etc.  Sometimes they are based on political/ethnic realities, though, that has not always been the case in the last several hundred years as empires have come and gone.  Mostly, these take in consideration important national needs such as defensible territory, raw materials, natural resources, water, transportation, ability to import or export goods for trade, etc. 

The viability of a nation depends on the existence of these valuable points and the ability to maintain their integrity.  If any nation is capable of threatening any of those necessities, a nation can become powerless; a subject or client nation of the threatening nation. 

The Caucasian Mountains to the north of Georgia have, for centuries, presented a natural defense against invasion.  In fact, the red line coming from the north, through North Ossetia into South Ossetia and Georgia proper, represents some of the few roads that can be transited through the Caucasus.  Further, it goes through the Roki Tunnel and, if controlled by the sovereign nation, is called a "choke point" and renders attacks difficult.  In the case of the current conflict, Georgia was unable or unwilling to cut off the Roki Tunnel and allowed Russian troops and armor to enter.

I say "unwilling" because they may have been trying to avoid confrontation with Russia that would have immediately grown much wider and fiercer if they had directly and purposefully killed Russian troops in the beginning of the conflict.  That is purely speculation and makes little sense if they were aware of the probability of Russian interference with armor massed on the other side of the territory.  Most likely, they were simply unable to reach the tunnel in time to cut it off. 

The red line road ends at Ts'khinvali, the nominal capitol of South Ossetia.  South Ossetia reaches down like a finger that effectively cuts Georgia in half.



It's a small spit of land, but important in its geographic location to the rest of Georgia.  The blue line represents the second half of this major roadway that runs out of South Ossetia all the way down to Gori.  The parallel black line is a major railhead.  Both could be used by foreign forces to quickly move on Gori that sits on four major transportation and resource hubs.  (Current reports indicate that Russia is moving on Gori right now)


These include the major highway that connects the Georgian capitol of Tblisi in the east with the western half of the country that contains all of the sea ports where most of Georgia's food and other products are imported and exported.  The black line that runs parallel with the red roadway running east and west is the major rail road that also transports goods or (troops to defend the country).  It also sits on the river, another transportation node and a vital national resource that, if cut off, cuts off fresh water for one end of the nation or another.  Finally, not represented here, is the major BTC oil pipeline that runs from Azerbiajan through Georgia to Poti on the coast and down through Turkey. 

Controlling Gori would leave only one major southern road way to transport troops and goods.  This would easily be harassed and cut off by an invading force.  Particularly, an invading force with a decent air force that could bomb that road into oblivion and cut off western Georgia with definitive finality.  Of course, Russia has also already bombed two air ports outside of Tblisi and several military air bases, cutting off any aid from air cargo making the southern road THE transportation connection for Georgia and very risky to transit.

With Russian ships blockading the western sea ports on the Black Sea, Azerbaijan to the east shaking in their boots, Iran a nominal Russian ally (that was recently promised, again, by Russia to fuel their nuclear plant at Bashir; conveniently), land locked Armenia to the south, that leaves any relief for Georgia coming through Turkey.  That's a big "if" Turkey wants to become involved. 

Turkey could, if they felt that Russia was sufficiently threatening an economic resource like the BTC pipeline that runs through Georgia, past Gori and down into Turkey.  That pipeline transports 1.2 million bpd of oil and could significantly impact not only Turkey, but Europe and other nations.  The pipeline out of Poti on the Black Sea only transports about 115,000 bpd and, while damaging some supply, doesn't necessarily put more of a crimp in the oil supply than a slow day in Iraq.  Russia has already shut that port down.  However, the amount of oil through the BTC and the nations it flows to and from is one reason that Russia has been somewhat circumspect in bombing the BTC pipeline to Turkey.  That would effectively expand the war to Turkey and possibly force other nations to become involved.

Of course, there are reports that the PKK (Kurdish separatists) have bombed the BTC pipeline inside Turkey, already damaging the flow.  This may either be direct coordination with Russia or simply the PKK taking advantage of the situation to harm Turkey.  It wouldn't make sense for Russia to coordinate with this group to do so because it would bring Turkey into play and they cannot really want that to occur.  Turkey controls the Bosporus Straits which is the only entry and exit to the Black Sea.  If Turkey felt threatened, they could render the Russian Black Sea fleet a useless, easy target by blockading the straits and effectively capturing the fleet inside the Black Sea (There is a list of conflicts involving Turkey and Russia where Turkey had done just that including the Crimean War and World War I). 

For those who wonder, aside from the Middle East mess, this is exactly why the US may have been pushing the EU to admit Turkey; why Turkey may have hesitated - wanting to remain able to make its own decisions outside of EU issues; and why the EU may have balked, for all it's pounding fists about Turkey's alleged human rights issues.  It only takes a few months of incredibly high natural gas prices in the middle of winter, threatening to cut off supplies through the Ukraine, to make Europe tremble. 

It's a delicate dance that Russia must do and Russia is more a blacksmith with a hammer than a tiptoeing ballerina. 

Returning to the original question: Why didn't Georgia just give up South Ossetia?  Does their "right" to secession trump Georgian sovereignty and national geographic integrity?  Would it have been easier and avoided this conflict? 

The answer is "no" to all of the above.  Had Georgia simply given South Ossetia to Russia (which is really what would happen for all the talk of joining North and South Ossetia), the Russian fist would have been right down the middle of Georgia and given Russia effective control of the territory.  All without a fight from Georgia.  That would have made the Georgian government a non-entity immediately and Russia the controlling power.  Georgia would no longer be free. 

Would anyone in the United States have stood still for their government to do such a thing here?  

Regardless of the much sped up conflict, had Georgia given South Ossetia to Russia, Russia would have immediately put a much larger military force inside Ossetia for "protection" instead of the smaller "peace keeping force" they had there as cover.  They would have put many more air assets in the territory and these would have been within ten minutes of Gori and twenty of Tblisi.  For all the reasons listed above that represents Russia's current strategy, that made South Ossetia's secession untenable and Russia's presence a gun to the Georgian's heads. 

The Russians have been massing forces on Georgia's northern border for over a month.  Essentially, they have been conducting "military maneuvers" that mirrored the maneuvers that the US and Georgia were training on together last month.  Ostensibly, to prepare Georgian military for action in Iraq.  However, that seems rather simple with a little hindsight applied.  Likely we and the Georgians have known that Russia was planning some sort of action.  The larger US military contingent left over a week ago, right before the "separatists" began earnest shelling of Georgian positions.  A likely ruse to provide Russia with an excuse to bring in more troops.  

Many are saying that the Georgians fell into Russia's trap by sending in large forces against the rebels and giving Russia an excuse to attack.  However, Russia was coming one way or the other.  Georgia had two choices:  1) Roll over and let Russia in without a fight, losing their sovereignty; or, 2) take a risk by a pre-emptive strike that would have cut off the Roki Tunnel and Ts'khinvili, limiting the Russians to air strikes and a sea blockade they would have been hard pressed to sustain with international out cry, Ukrainian rejection of their fleet and Turkey possibly getting antsy.  Not to mention, had Georgia handed Russia a defeat at the Roki Tunnel and captured their "peace keepers", Russia would have been militarily humiliated again and might have kept them from entertaining any future ideas of taking Georgia or other former Soviet Republics.  It's a risk that Georgia had little choice but to take and they have effectively lost. 

Georgia offered a ceasefire and Russia has chosen to ignore it, insisting that Saakashvili has to step down, calling him a "war criminal" and "fascist".  They say they will not negotiate with him because of that, but it is very likely that it is an excuse to allow Russia to break Georgia completely and factually make Georgia a Russian satellite instead of nominally.  

The question is not really why Georgia didn't just surrender in the first place, but "Now what?"





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The best (perhaps the only) tactical/strategic discussion I've seen yet on the Russo-Georgian conflict. I get a bit more understanding of why South Ossetia matters to the Georgians - a mountain range between them and Russia. The Russians, however, have... Read More

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Somebody takes out the Roki Tunnel.  Maybe somebody with stealth bombers and Massive Ordnance Penetrators.

Or we  sit around singing Kumbaya hoping for change.

Here's you another map.  You do good work with maps.

 
So, they are bombing all along the transit routes. Not unexpected.  but leaving open the south.  That means they are either fearing Turkish unease or the Georgians have put up an acceptional air defense in the area. 
 
Thanks, Kat!
That is exactly what I've been trying to find out.  Having no intimate knowlege of Georgia or its resources, I wasn't sure what made SO so important to Georgia.  Knowing more about the tunnel and the geographic landscape of SO helps me (and others, I'm sure) understand the full impact of SO to the region.

And now that Russia is blocking the ports, and bombing other parts of the country, I am not comfortable with their offensive at all.  The Russians started out saying this was defensive, but once they crossed out of SO and blocked the ports, they've turned it into an offensive move.  It's got to stop.
 
Russia, like China, is pretty much the same whoever is in power. The names may change but the game still goes by the same rules as it has for hundreds of years. The Russian leader can be called  czar, commissar or president but they still wield the same power.
Russia also wants more protection. Like a homeless man putting on several coats, Russia tries to surround itself with multiple layers of protection.
Whatever the immediate issues you have to take all the above into consideration as well.
 
As I was saying... I agree with the entire piece, including the comment about stealth taking out the tunnel. My commentary suggested that the Georgians did not place sufficient importance on closing the tunnel. I also suggest that the Georgian strike was intended to be similar to many of our ops in Iraq.

Whatever their original intent, they screwed up. Now it's up to us, and Turkey and the Ukraine, to be inventive and innovative.
 
It is quite clear that the Georgians lost operational surprise. The Russians were rolling in major units on the first day. They were just waiting for a fig leaf to give them some diplomatic cover. If the Georgians had managed to achieve surprise, they may well have secured the Roki tunnel. Without it, it was a doomed adventure.
 
To: AFSister and Kat 

Sis, you raise an essential question, "...why is it so important for Georgia to keep this recalcitrant spit of land?" Your question is extremely important. This small section is essentially a dividing line, if the Georgian government allowed this, it would essentially divide the country into two small enclaves. The irony of all of this is this, the first attacks were cyber attacks. About this group who wants to maintain their Russian status, here's my opinion. I believe they should be permitted to maintain their status with Russia, IN Russia. If you are going to stay in Georgia, live within its laws. If you want to live within the "protection" and under the authority of Russia move there.

But under no circumstances, do you change the political boundaries.
 
welllllll, grumpy, that's where it gets a wee bit tricky there a bit also....

see, they weren't really really all that Georgian in the first place.  Not that when they were Russian, they were really really that much Russian...   way back then, even the Russians let them be a semi-autonomous "okrug"...

(darn tough thing throughout history: trying to get Caucasus mountain folk to assimilate)
 
Keep in mind, this is not just about Georgia.
The fall of Georgia followed by the takeover of Armenia blocks NATO involvement in Azerbaijan and the five "stans".  No intervention route.

This is the first move in re-claiming eight of the 19 countries that the Russian Empire lost with the fall of the USSR.  (I do not include Belorus in the 19, they are defacto Russian territory already...)
 
Mike, you make a good point.  We are all stubborn at some point. But at some point, they should try to assimilate with the people of Georgia or Russia. But don't stay as an isolated tribe. We have all learned to "pick our battles," As you well know, there are times, when status quo is just not an acceptable option. When we look at the players, we will not find any clean vs dirty hands in this picture. We must realize there is plenty of dirt to go around.
 
The Soviets purposely settled ethinic Russians there in order to dispel any Georgian nationalism.  Putin took advantage of this fact to cause trouble - granting them "Russian" citizenship, encouraging trouble, then invading to protect Russian citizens.  
 
Just for the record, which seems to be a bit smudgy here from all the anti-Russian heat, the 'separatist' areas were considered autonomous regions under the Warsaw Pact/Soviet Union, and a lot of this grew out of Georgia's insistence after the collapse of the WP that those previously autonomous regions surrender their autonomy to Georgia. In this case then, Grumpy, I'd say it was Georgia you are talking about "But under no circumstances, do you change the political boundaries." Not that I agree with your sentiment of course--political boundaries are changed all the time for scads of valid reasons --but I don't see this as any different than Georgia wanting to be separate from Russia. All of which leads me to wonder why everyone is ok with Georgia wanting control of South Ossetia, but not with Russia wanting control of Georgia (aside from it being important to us strategically an' all)

And on another contrarian note, as has been seen by now, the tunnel really doesn't matter much all, and it never did. Aside from the fact that the Russians CAN do airborne and air-mobile operations, they just moved a large number of troops into the country from the west, effectively preventing Georgia from doing much of anything after that, even if it had managed to capture the tunnel.

Also, re: Turkey, I don’t believe for a second it is going to fight Russia on Georgia's behalf (why should it) because I don't think there is much chance Turkey would risk having the Blue Stream pipeline cut off, while at the same time creating an opportunity for the Kurds to come at them from the other side. To say nothing of the fact that the ruling party of Turkey is pretty heavily focused on the tension between it and the military right now, and is unlikely to chance having the military in an even more prominent role just now (although the distraction might actually give the governing AK Party time to consolidate its power, so who knows...)

And finally, I want to add that what I find most interesting about all of this discourse, not only here, but in the news and elsewhere, is that no one really cares about Georgia as an independent democracy (except maybe, possibly Kat), only as a strategic asset of the U.S. and the West. I've read about pipelines, oil prices, and on and on, but hardly anyone has really talked about the civilians caught up in this, or whether the so-called separatists might actually have a legitimate dispute with Georgia, or even if there is a remote possibility that Russia is not entirely in the wrong here. Yeah, certainly they were ready to pounce, but Georgia started this, and given Sakaashvili's non-stop attempts to manipulate the west into a war that needn't have even happened, I'm not sure he didn't just make one huge miscalculation, maybe gambling that Russia would not do anything with Putin in China, and etc., and that the west would come running to his aid if Russia did jump. Ooops.

All of which reinforces what I wrote in my other posts--that Georgia as an independent nation really doesn't matter, and that we only really care about the uninterrupted flow of oil from the 'stans, regardless of whose flag flies over the capital. Consider this then: Would anyone really care if Russia owned Georgia if Russia agreed to the unimpeded, non-obstructed flow of oil, natural gas, etc., across Georgia. I don't think so, regardless of the lip service we pay to supporting democracies and so on.

Just thinking out loud, if you will.

V/R
SangerM
P.S. One more thing, in Russia (and the other Slavic states), there is a big difference between Citizenship and Nationality, This is too much to go into right now, but 1) it's not as easy as trying to "assimilate with the people of Georgia or Russia" (which sentiment, BTW, begs all sorts of questions about our own independent tribes, eh?) because the resistance is strong in both directions, and 2) Uncle Joe (and his successors) forcefully resettled or killed millions of people both before and after WWII; however, South Ossetia was semi-autonomous under the Soviet Union, and the people there would not have tolerated a great many Russians the way the Baltic states did. Also, those people were most likely not granted Russian citizenship just to cause trouble, but because they were Russians. In Russia citizenship means little more than having a set of ID papers, whereas nationality matters regardless of what country you live in--and the Russian would have protected those people regardless of what their citizenship papers read. That's why there are such hard feelings in the Baltics. Anyway, I know this is abbreviated and a bit disjointed, but I did want to point out that nothing about this is as simple as many people here seem to think. Wheels within wheels, everyone. And then some.....
 
dang, now i gotta pull out my old textbooks and figure out the Russkie word for "anschluss"..
 
SangerM

Ok, so you're going to have to take my word for it... But, I do care about Georgia as na independent free nation. I do care about it' people being free and independent if that's what they want.

I think the point that some authors are trying to make is that they care about the people being free and independent, but their are also strategic reasons (important ones) for backing Georgia.

Best,

Jim C
 
SangerM, I respect your loyalty to your nation. But the American People have MANY questions. This is not just about oil, it is about a much larger question, what about the People of Russia and the People of Georgia? The Government and the people want to join The North Atlantic Treaty Organization as an INDEPENDENT NATION, INDEPENDENT OF RUSSIAN CONTROL, MILITARY FORCES (THEY SHOULD GET AND STAY OUT!) AND ANY OTHER INVOLVEMENT. I REPEAT, I BELIEVE THE "RUSSIAN CITIZENS" IN THE SOVEREIGN NATION OF GEORGIA, HAVE A CHOICE. THEY SHOULD EITHER BECOME GEORGIAN CITIZENS OR MOVE TO RUSSIA.  This is, in my opinion, the reason for this whole incident.
 
Hey, my point all along on THe Chief's post was that we(meaning even us interested amateurs who hang out here) don't know enough to have a defenitive idea of what's going on.  I know what Sanger does for a living.  IR may not be his main bag, but it isn't something he only dabbles in or reads about in his free time.  If he says something, I'd give it a lot of weight.  Not accept it outright, but when you start collecting your thoughts/info I'd put a lot of weight on what he says.  The conglomerate idea may go totally against him in the end, but he's not just talking to hear himself. 

I don't know if Russia is right.  THey *could* be.  Even with a multi-week build up they could be right.  Not even in the possible but not probable sense.  It's probable.  I won't hazard a guess on percentages or confidence values, but it is probable. 

We don't know enough.  We might find that it is in our best interests (say what you mean, do you what you say) to do something, but there's a lot to figure out and we're dealing with a waterhose level flow of info when dealing with a situation that probably pumps out sewer pipe volumes of info.  A little here, a little there, it adds up, but it isn't the whole picture, or enough to say with Guttneburg bible hitting the table certainty or QED.  We don't know.

People die.  It sucks.  BUt as John said on the other thread how far are we willing to escelate this?  What's it actually worth to the US?  It's the @55hole doctrine.  You've got a bad situation and whichever option you choose you screw someone in the @55.  Who and how many matters(practicing what I preach, Kat.  If you're gonna poke people in the chest don't be surprised when people poke back.).  Whoever makes this call is sentencing people to die.  I'm glad it isn't my call.  But, hey, if someone wants to make that call I'm sure the PTB would love to have someone make it for them. 
 
Russia builds up forces just on the other side of the Caucasus for six weeks, provides them with enough supplies and ammunition for large scale and continuous bombardment for three days and moves in two divisions through the Roki and across the Caucasus into Abkhazia?  That is not an accident

Yes, he was waiting, possibly planning to move more troops into the area under one guise or another. 

I agree, I believe, that Georgia fired the first shot.  however, I also believe that Saakashvili saw the Russians on the other side of the Caucasus and decided to pull a pre-emptive strike in order to cut them off.  he just didn't make it.  Is that right or wrong?  Well, was S. Ossetia Georgian territory or not?

My problem with the idea that Russia was right in any way is some bizarre de facto acceptance that S. Ossetia belonged to Russia already. 
 
 Kat: Congratulations on a superb analysis of the strategic importance of South Ossetia to Georgia. You are correct on all points. Control over SO is just as critical to Georgia as control over the West Bank is to Israel (recall that for 35 mi north of Tel Aviv Israel is only 7-10 mi wide). Also, one should keep in mind that Turkey is not exactly a friendly nation as far as Georgia is concerned: over the past few hundred years, Georgia spent more time under the control of the Ottoman Turkey and Persia than it did under Russia, and the Turkish and Persian rule was far, FAR more brutal than Russian. Turkey did not forget about the Georgian pogroms in XIXth and XXth centuries against its small Turkish population, including the bloody deportation of all ethnic Turks from Georgia to Central Asia in 1944 by Joseph Stalin (Dzhugashvili). a Georgian. Turkey already controls economically the entire Georgian autonomous region of Ajaria, which is Muslim, and would be more than happy to annex it if a convenient opportunity presented itself. Turks would also be happy to avenge the suffering of their bretheren in the hands of Georgians. They would have done all this years ago if it was not for their NATO obligations, desire to join the EU, and the fear that Russia (yes, Russia!) would come to Georgia's aid as it did in early XIXth century. I would not be surprised if someone in Turkish govt was phoning Moscow now and proposing a partition of Georgia along the lines of their respective geopolitical interests. 
 
Ok, so is yelling now the order of the day? :-)

I pretty much respect what you believe, Grumpy, but I have a lot of qualms about the details. First of all, NATO is an artificial construct that should have seen its charter changed or voided before the turn of the century, except that it serves U.S. strategic purposes to have some control over the militaries (and arsenals) of Europe as well as the right to 'put the bite' on the other members when it's convenient for us. That said, NATO is not some kind of democratic holy-grail, and to be perfectly honest, it would just flat piss me off if the US got sucked into a war with Russia because Georgia were to be mistakenly allowed to join NATO. And yes, I believe it would be a big mistake, just as I believe it was a mistake to include Ukraine and Belarus in NATO. I mean really, who had to go into Kosovo and Serbia? The REST of NATO? Please! NATO means U.S. when it really matters.

Anyway, first let me say that I am not an apologist for Russia, though it may seem so, but I am also not blind to the flaws in free-market democracies either. More than a few of the worst kinds of dictators have been 'freely' elected, as you know, and the free market hasn't been nearly as kind to all people equally, even to Americans. More to the point, all the hyper ventilating and cold-war boogie-man nonsense aside, the fact is that the U.S., Russia, China, and lately India are playing a grown-up's game with much greater finesse and determination and much higher stakes than most other countries are capable of mustering and which most people simply do not perceive, let alone understand. There is also a reason France is still a power player, and the same goes for Germany and Britain, though less so. It is all about power. The power to control one's world, to make others do as one wants, and so on, and power comes in many flavors and strengths.

The simple fact is that we have been rubbing Russia's nose in its troubles for some time because we have the power to do so, but I am not the least surprised at this incursion into Georgia. I am more surprised there hasn't been considerable push-back from Russia on a number of other issues, like the missile shield. And as to all that, you can say what you want, but I know in my heart and my head that if Russia were to be placing a ring of countries around the United States, over whose Armies and Arsenals it had even a minimal amount of control (as we do over NATO), the American people would be up in arms! The Cuban missile crisis would be nothing compared to the furor here if we were in Russia's place and Russia were in ours.

As to independence and all that, let Georgia join the EU if it wants to be a free and independent country. As for NATO membership, I vote no, now and forever, if only because it serves no purpose for the U.S. but it does antagonize a country that shouldn't be taken for granted or dismissed nearly so easily as so many people seem to do. Russia is not a one-dimensional 'mobster' country, and the people running it are neither children nor neophytes in the power politics game, though they do seem so sometimes.

....

And finally, Grumpy, I just have to ask, since you seem so firmly devoted to the rights of the Georgians, what about American Indians? Should they become fully-fledged citizens of the United States (abandoning tribal sovereignty), or should they just go back where they came from? Or should we give them total sovereignty over their lands? I know this is not quite the same thing, but it's not too terribly different at the core. You are talking about South Ossetia being a part of the sovereign nation of Georgia, but that's not the case and hasn't been for a very long time, so far as I know. More to the point, what if Mexico were to start killing Americans citizens who live in American enclaves in Mexico (and there are many)? Would the U.S. stand by and allow it? Would we just talk to Mexico about it? Would we abandon the Americans, telling them tough, they chose to live there? Again, it's not the same thing, but it is similar enough to make the point.

Anyway, given Russia's offer to return to the pre-invasion borders, I guess everyone's gonna be able to go back to focusing on the other hot-spots du-jour for a while, though it looks like Georgia is still trying to hold out for something better. We'll see....


BTW, Jim C, I understand your point, and I concede the truth of it; however, I tend to look at free and independent as not necessarily the ultimate good that everyone else does. I haven't time or given it sufficient thought to be more articulate, but basically, it comes down to granularity for me. At what point is free and independent realistic and useful to the human race and at what point is it not. For example, Malta, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, Mauritius, and others are pretty cool little places (I've been to some of them), but does the world really need them? Do the small numbers of people they enclose really need to be sovereign nations? Does the Hole See? And if one believes that even the tiniest countries have the right to exist in the Westphalian sense, then how can that same person find what the South Ossetians or the Basques or the Kurds doing 'wrong.' See what I mean by granularity? At what point does a discrete group of people get to have its own nation. And of course, it follows closely with the notion that maybe any one of the U.S. States has the same right to be independent and free, given that our Founders actually did mean 'State' in the 'sovereign nation' sense when they wrote the Declaration of Independence!

V/R
SangerM
 
Just saw in the headlines: apparently, Saakashvili ordered a few days ago that all Russian citizens be prevented from leaving Georgia. Held as hostages??? Alright, Mr. Saakashvili, here's my respectful opinion as an Israeli: Russians have so far done precisely what Israel would have done to any country that dared attack it: surgically disrupt your military supply routes and destroy the positions from which your army shelled the Ossetian capital. Now that you have ordered Russian tourists held as hostages (if it is confirmed that this is indeed so), Russians would be perfectly within their right to do what Israel would have done to any terrorist leader... What an idiot.
 

Frankly, the question about who is a state and what is a state and whether there is some right or wrong to be determined by any political system within that state is kind of bogus. 

it would be nice if peoples banded together and created democracies that they freely associated with and that they had considered together the logistical, geographic and resources necessary to make a defensible and sustainable state.  But, that implies a large amount of free space and movements so vast or continuous that there is no stability in the world's politics or economies.  Which means far greater numbers of wars on a smaller and smaller world.

I don't support that at all, though I support, within their contiguous borders, any country or people that would be a democracy. 

People tend to think that you have to be either a realist or an idealist and that there can be no marriage or compromise between them.  That is ridiculously shallow. 

the first priority of any state is to insure their own survival.  After that it is to insure the survival of their allies as assistance and buffers between other potential enemies.  After that, it is to develop and support potential allies.  In Georgia, the survival of the free state meant the rejection of Russian forces controlling any territory past the Caucasus.  End of story.  After that, Georgia is neither free nor defensible.

In which case, as a free country AND ally of the United States, of course I consider it to be right to retain their territory.  I should believe otherwise because?

 

 
SangerM,

Thank you, You did exactly what I wanted. I would be a fool to not expect some sharp YELLING ;-)

There is an old saying that goes something like this, "You want your friends close, but you want your enemies closer. You want them so close, that you are inside their heads. You want to think their thoughts before they think them."

I'M YELLING! I WAS WRONG, I KNEW YOU WERE NOT AN APOLOGIST FOR RUSSIA, AT THE TIME I WROTE IT!  Let's just talk, I'm starting to be a pain in the ass to myself. You took great pleasure in setting this "GRUMPY OLD VET" right. I took pleasure in seeing how you did it. In your "yelling", you revealed yourself.

You are quite correct, both Countries have made, are making, and will make bad choices. But it is also equally true for both Countries for good choices. Systems of government are only like tools in carpenter's toolbox. The important thing is the carpenter or our leaders.

We can disagree, without being disagreeable.

V/R
Grumpy
 
Nice analysis, Kat.
 
Well, Sanger, had they cut off the Roki Tunnel, they would have had to commit fewer troops there and could have faced more westward towards Abkhazia, effectively penning any ground troops to one small area and access road and railroad.

The superior air power would have been a problem and, even penning the ground troops in, the russian air force could have threatened  Tblisi, Gori, etc and the Russian Navy still would have been a problem for blockade. 

I think that Russia was going to assert its power one way or the other and Saakashvili was simply desparate.
 
He shouldn't have taken the bait, assuming he did.

Certainly not with almost half? his army in Iraq. Should have tried to sign a mutual defense pact with America, at least. Let the Russians invade. Then again, maybe he thought the Americans would sell him down the river. And maybe he was right to go it alone cause he couldn't depend on his allies.


 
In which case, as a free country AND ally of the United States, of course I consider it to be right to retain their territory. I should believe otherwise because?

People might know Sergey, he's from Russia. He believes the same things as BillT's pal, mostly.

The thing is, the Russian version of humanitarianism and war fighting is almost diametrically opposite the US's. The US would rather take casualties going house to house in Fallujah, than just nuke the place. The Russians tried to go house to house, were destroyed, so they sat back and used artillery to make the rubble bounce in Chechnya. That's one way to do it. Also a good to way to create insurgents and terrorists, but still.

Whichever path Georgia takes, whether Russian or America, depends upon which they think will work. And so far, Russia's brutality is working and America's little hearts and minds crack ain't.



 
SangerM;
You ask, "Does the Hole See?"  Does it see what? 

Holy Sea, Batman!  It's the Swiss Guard!  
 
Brian H >  You ask, "Does the Hole See?" Does it see what?  Holy Sea, Batman! It's the Swiss Guard!

ha ha ha   I HATE spell checkers that don't think for me!!!  So much for the contextual spell checking in Office 2007!  And I have no idea what I must have typed that got corrected, it's not like holy is a hard word an all...

Once again, as eyore says 'thanks for noticin'

(not)

:-)
 
The appologists are out in force.  Who says that Georgia stopped ethnic Russians from leaving OSS or Georgia proper.  Do we know the reason the Georgians moved into Os. Some say there was provocation.

The Russian efforts look like something the Germans did before the move into Poland. The Russian media sounds like a parody of news reporting.

Despite the massive Russian disinformation effort, the truth is getting out to the world.   It is a pity the likes of the assassinated Anna Polotskaya are no longer available to let the Russian people know what the butchers of Chechnya  are doing in Georgia. 


 
Davod: In re: to the so-called butchers of Chechnya, I have only one word to say:  Beslan!

 
Belsan was four years or more after the Butchers raised Grozny in Chechnya.  Might I suggest that the cause and effect are reversed?