...comes an insight into some of the problematic aspects of the Left's multi-culti paradise of the "ethnic salad" vice, the "mixing bowl" of assimilation, as viewed from the Right. Take away the stalking horses of the extremes of the view from left or right - just look at what Sanger had to say in a comment he put in one of the posts on the situation in Georgia - and how the cultural realities at play in his experience compare to the vision of the multi-culti paradise offered up by the PC crowd. There has been some snippage of his comment pared away as it related to the thread on which he posted it - while this, well, this is relevant to why *I'm* posting it where more of you will read it.
On to what Sanger had to say.
I learned years ago that we and the peoples of Europe (east and west) and of the middle east look at race, ethnicity, nationality, and citizenship in very different, and sometimes incomprehensible ways. This has been driven home to me more than once in very personal and disturbing ways, and a lot of that experience has been bound up in what I have been writing about. 6) I know for a variety of reasons that there are real problems within S. Ossetia that make everyone wish it would just go away, including a LOT of criminal activity and smuggling (of contraband and people), and all sorts of unsavory stuff that the world is better off without. So what was I about earlier?
My focus--what I've been arguing against, if you will--has been the vilification of Russia for responding to what I consider the stupid antics of the Georgians, and also to the cookie-cutter cold war rhetoric about the big evil Russians and the poor, defenseless Georgians. I Was also a bit put off at first by the mostly universal focus of others on the economic aspect of the Russian invasion, and especially on the cost of oil. I've said a lot about all of that, too much by now, but what I haven't really explained to my satisfaction is what I see as the primary root of the problem, and path of misunderstanding and arrogance that I believe is going to lead us into a war we don't really want, and won't be fighting for the same reasons. It boils down to history and ethnicity (or nationality, as some call it).
The people of Europe, and especially the Slavs, do not think of themselves as Germans, Frenchmen, Spaniards, Yugoslavs, Serbo-Croatians, Russians, Czechs and etc., unless they are historically, racially, and culturally so. The world may consider S. Ossetia part of Georgia, but the S. Ossetians consider themselves members of a discrete ethnicity, and they do not consider themselves Russians any more than they consider themselves Georgians. The so-called ethnic Russians in the various countries outside Russia are reviled not because they are of Russian ancestry, but because they consider themselves Russians first and citizens of whatever country they are living in second.
This is not easy to explain, and it was really hard to understand the first time I encountered it--it was like getting hit in the head with a brick. I was in Germany, attending Czech language courses in Munich. Being Jewish, I was invited to share the Friday night meal at the home of a married Jewish couple who taught Czech and Russian at the school. During the evening, I asked how it was that a Russian married a Czech, and was immediately and firmly set straight--they were both Jews, not Russian or Czech. I brushed that aside and said yeah, yeah, but that's just talk, since I'm a Jew too, but I am an American first. Oy, what a horrified response I got! It was NOT just talk to them.
They both pulled out their passports and both had JEW as nationality, not Russian or Czech! I was astounded! And I just cannot explain even now, how utterly appalled I was. Why would anyone, especially a Jew want a passport to say that instead of the country he is a citizen of?!? They, conversely, were appalled that I considered myself an American, not a Jew living in America. I told them that everyone here was like me (with the usual caveats, of course), and that just floored them. They said they'd never even considered that all the different races and religious entities in the U.S. wouldn't consider themselves as separate from being American. I could go on about this, but suffice to say the evening was long and not pleasant because these Jews actually felt I was an embarrassment to the 'race' because I chose to be American first.
I have a friend who is Serbian. He is one of the founders of the movement that overthrew Milosevic. He tried to explain to me what it meant to be Serbian once and while I don't recall all of it, I do recall that he said to be Serbian is to be Orthodox. You simply cannot be Serbian if you are not Orthodox, but being Orthodox does not automatically make you Serbian. Some people here may know that Serbs and Croats speak the same language, almost exactly, but one people, being Catholic, uses the Latin alphabet and the other, being Orthodox, uses the Cyrillic, which is mostly just the Greek alphabet. It's all religion, and there is no more real difference between the Croats and the Serbs than there is between the Tutsis and the Hutus in Rwanda (now there's a legacy for the Belgians to be proud of!).
We had a friend who was a Polish national. I could tell lots of tales about her, but I'll simply say that her hatred of Russia and all things Russian, and of all Russians was greater than anything I have ever experienced in the United States--AND she had never experienced any real trauma at the hands of the Russians. Her hatred was fed to her in her mother's milk, and it was soul-deep and implacable, born of centuries of animosity capped by WWII. I've known Russians who felt the same way about the Germans. Anyway, the point of all that is that regardless of what the Western powers have decided, the peoples of the region who consider themselves ethnic-somethings (and there are scores of these) do NOT consider themselves automatically bound to the nation of the majority.
As I said to Grumpy a few days ago, it is NOT just a simple matter of them getting with the program or leaving. To those people, as it was to the Jewish couple I met in Munich, one simply does NOT become a Georgian, a Russian, a Latvian, or any other nationality just because one lives within the borders of the country where those people are the majority. And moreover, the ethnic majority in all of those countries, including most of those in continental Western Europe even today do not consider the ethnic minorities to be full citizens, let alone their equals. If you think I'm making this up, ask people who've tried to be French (I've got a story about that), or German (yeah, like the Turks want to be Germans and the Germans would let them), and so on. And so, to end this for tonight, it comes to this for me (and this has been the focus of my thinking all along). I don't believe the Russians are any more in the wrong on this than the Georgians. I don't believe the U.S. has worked this out as well as it ought, and I think we're playing a strong game in a bad way. We are really rubbing Russia's nose in its lack of power right now, and though it may benefit us in the short term, I don't think our government has near the focus on the Russians that it ought to have, and it's going to cause big problems in the future.
Am I talking about appeasement? Not at all. I would however, really like to see our government not screw things up as often as it does because we think we understand the other side, and because we are once again confusing blatant self-interest with a do-gooder desire to make everyone else "free." Oh, and just for the fun of it, anyone else know what the names Togarma, Gog, and Magog represent? I'm not a believer, but this is where it all starts if you are.... :-) V/R SangerM
I've run into this once or twice myself - back in college, I was approached by what in retrospect had to be an IRA recruiter (money and such, not as a goon) because of my Irish surname, he seemed to just assume I was going to be a good Irish lad. He was seemingly confused by my point that... "I'm not Irish, I'm an American." He tried to argue differently, and my response was - "I'm still not Irish - I have Irish ancestors, sure, and English ones, and German ones, too. But me, I'm an American - and, for the record, if Ireland is such a great place... why are so many of us *from* Ireland, and not *in* Ireland?" Which of course gave him the opening he needed to talk about the damned oppressor Sassenach and their Protestant minions... but that's a different story.
Yet the grip of ethnicity is strong for many people. A reader of this space, feeder of copy, and occasional commenter, and retired officer of the United States Army, holds an Irish passport, and dreams of living there (admittedly Ireland is a much more attractive place to live now than it was back in the 70's...). This gentleman is also a staunch, and conservative Catholic, as well as having a closer tie to the Emerald Isle - IIRC, his mother was born there. It doesn't make him unfaithful to his oath or the US - but his attachment to Ireland is... foreign to me. And this from a guy who was born, and lived a fair number of years, in Europe.
What is happening in and around Russia and in and around Iraq, and in and around Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan, and all of sub-Saharan Africa is all wrapped up in Sanger's comment - the tribal/racial/ethnic aspects of the conflicts.
Yet, arguably, this is exactly what the multi-culti PC crowd wishes to establish in the US, and by governmental fiat, no less. Virtual tribal enclaves where privileges are doled out by sub-group membership status, vice the enforcement of rights belonging to all.
Yet, that which makes our approach to things different - in good ways, and in bad, yes, is that we provide a vehicle for upward mobility - if you are willing to relax your tight small-group bonds and develop larger, looser bonds to society as a whole - a new, broader group. And it worked pretty well, if in sometimes brutal and oft-times ham-handed fashion, as waves of immigrants arrived to start a new life and leave an old one behind. The first generations always have it tough, and many cling to their comfort zones and were kept in them, too ("No Irish!" signs, for example) by preceding waves who feared the competition and tried to rig the game - but over time, it works out, for most groups, as their children assimilate and move on. The huge elephant in the room of course being the involuntary immigrants - slaves and their descendants, a huge carbuncle on the experiment that is the United States, still in the process of resolution.
But the incentive to move out and move up was there, and in the end, most groups were uplifted. And the ones that weren't, couldn't, wouldn't, or were prevented by structural barriers - the attempts to lift up those groups, by according special status and privilege to them... all for good reason, heh, well, that's turned into an industry, now hasn't it? And defines our politics. And, I believe, takes us down a path that can lead to places we really rather would not go.
For all that's wrong with us (and there is so much more right than wrong) I wonder when Germany will nominate a 2nd generation Turk for Chancellor, seeing as how infatuated the media wishes us to believe they are with Senator Obama, or France a 2nd generation Algerian for President, or Great Britain elevate a 2nd generation Indian to the Prime Ministership?
Well, in truth, that may not be that far away, at least for France or England, but will come from a far different dynamic than the one that has lifted Senator Obama to his current pinnacle. It's funny, sometimes, how much pride other countries take when one of their ethnic descendants makes it big in US politics - makes it big in ways, and from dynamics, that are *not* present in the "auld country..."
so, from where i sit, SangerM hit the nail on the head, as did John. ain't America great!!
Sure, we assume everyone wants to live in a country where they are "free", where they can enjoy certain civil liberties, rights, and privileges due to their citizenship, where they can raise their children in an environment that's peaceful, wholesome, and nurturing, and where they can enjoy boundless economic opportunities.
However, America was founded and populated by independent and motivated people who did not like the status quo that existed in their homelands so much that they risked their own lives to seek these opportunities, oftentimes leaving their families and friends to do so with the likelihood that they'd never see them again even if they survived in the New World and found those opportunities.
The independence, courage, motivation, and ethos of those people stand in stark contrast to those who did not. They elected to remain, for whatever their reasons, back in their homelands, subject to whatever political, religious, or economic strife and repression that existed wherever they were.
This difference between US and THEM heavily impacts our relations with those in the Old World, and it influences whether or not the people we're trying to help become "free" can sustain that freedom afterwards.
BTW, John, good points and post. A lot of this ties in neatly with some of the stuff I've written about the benefits of immigration and so on. You'll see that soon. And of course, thanks for the compliment of being the fuel for further discourse. Really.
We're all paid the exact same wage!
As for the Munich couple, I was appalled by them having Jew on their passport almost as much because it made them targets as because they felt no allegiance to the country of their birth--not that Russia or Czechoslovakia really deserved their fealty, but even so.....
You know, I happened to be watching a re-run episode of Mad Men, which is an ok show, but I was jaw-dropping stunned by something one of the characters said, not because it was profound, but because until then I thought I was the only person who feels the way I do about Israel and about being Jewish. The woman, who is Jewish tells the main character that she is Jewish, not Israeli, and that she has no desire to visit there, and really doesn't feel any great affinity for the country. She then tells him it is enough for her that Israel exists, and that alone is what matters to her, that it exists....
Yes! That's it exactly! I was floored. Her words were my words, the same thing that I've been telling people for years.
It is the mirrored reverse, I think, of what John wrote about Ireland, which is the home of his ancestors. I have no desire whatsoever to be Israeli and no relationship to the place or anyone there beyond my genetics, but Israel's existence is what makes being an unfettered American possible for me. I suppose that sounds odd, but Israel has existed my entire life--and I am the first generation of Jew who can say such a thing--so I have never been burdened with the obligation, as my grandparents and parents were, to keep alive the nation of Jews in exile, to live as part of the great Diaspora.
And it is this, or maybe the essence of this, that I think many people see as the great Jewish conspiracy in America. Yes, Jews here want America to help Israel, but I suspect it's not nearly so much because Israel has influence here as it is that Jews here want to be free to be Americans who are Jews, not Jews who live in America. None of us (none that I know, anyway) wants to be like that couple in Munich, but without an Israel, we would never be free in our hearts to be otherwise. Israel matters to me, not because I want to go there or be an Israeli, but because I want to be a whole American.
Anyway, I don't know if that makes sense or if it makes me sound like a loon, but it's the best I can do for now to describe something that is as much a part of my makeup as anything else, and has been for decades.
V/R
SangerM