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  <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2012://1/tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1.9667-</id>
  <updated>2012-01-06T18:26:22Z</updated>
  <title>Comments for Okay, back to that &quot;Bright, shiny&quot; object that generated so much commentary.</title>
  <subtitle>We&apos;re the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost.  All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT,  and KA 2003-2010</subtitle>
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  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1.9667</id>
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    <link rel="service.edit" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/cgi-bin/mt41/mt-atom.cgi/weblog/blog_id=1/entry_id=9667" title="Okay, back to that &quot;Bright, shiny&quot; object that generated so much commentary." />
    <published>2008-08-28T14:01:23Z</published>
    <updated>2008-08-28T19:06:02Z</updated>
    <title>Okay, back to that &quot;Bright, shiny&quot; object that generated so much commentary.</title>
    <summary><![CDATA[If you need to refresh yourself - click here.

That was fun.&nbsp; You guys would be *soooo* easy to interrogate.&nbsp; Just let the silence linger, questions unanswered, and you guys spill your guts.]]></summary>
    <author>
      <name>The Armorer</name>
      <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    
    <category term="Tanks and AFVs" />
    
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      <![CDATA[<p>If you need to refresh yourself - <a href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/08/ooo_bright_shin.html">click here.</a><br /><br />That was fun.&nbsp; You guys would be *soooo* easy to interrogate.&nbsp; Just let the silence linger, questions unanswered, and you guys spill your guts.<br /><br />Blake actually got it early on - the field expedient pintle mount for the .50 cal on the commander's cupola.<br /><br />I have yet to run across a tanker who liked that arrangement - on the M48 or the M60.&nbsp; The weapon wasn't flexible enough - especially for fighting in urban areas - it was unreliable due to how it was mounted, and the mounting method made it hard to clear - and the lack of room reduced the amount of ammo you could have... and the cupola was crowded.<br /><br />The Marines of the era agreed - here's a pic of a Marine M48 during the fighting in Hue.<br /><br /><img alt="M48 w Marines outer wall of Hue citadel 1968" src="http://www.fototime.com/99292D05EF88151/orig.jpg" /></p><p>The M48 was a redesign incorporating many of the lessons learned from the M46 and M47 series tanks, with production starting in 1952 and running through 1959.&nbsp; Some of the lessons.&nbsp; Not all, certainly.<br /><br />They were still powered by gasoline engines, and the early versions had a range of only 70 miles.&nbsp; They didn't get diesels until 1968.&nbsp; Heh. Lit up like a barbecue and had no legs, to boot. According to the info I found while poking about, in the addition to the Marine users, the 1/77th Armor, the owner of the tank in the original post, operated near the DMZ, with two other Army battalions using the tank in Vietnam - 2/34 Armor in the Delta and 1/69 Armor in the Central Highlands. They were appreciated by the infantry, and 1/69 AR actually had a tank-on-tank fight with PT-76's at Ben Het.<br /><br />The M48 was designed to fight WWIII&nbsp;in Europe. &nbsp;When they were first deployed, the M48-A3 had a state-of-the-art fire control system - well, for the 60's anyway.&nbsp; It was a mechanical fire control computer - you determined your range-to-target with a&nbsp;stereoscopic range finder (those protrusions on the side of the turret), which used a split image - like old SLR cameras.&nbsp;Turning a hand-crank on the range finder would&nbsp;move mirrors that were housed in those projections on the turret&nbsp;- the farther apart you could get those, the more accurate your range is)&nbsp;&nbsp;until the double-image in the range finder merged into one image.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Since you know your base distance (that between the mirrors), you can now do a little trig based on the mirror angles to determine a range.&nbsp;&nbsp;Range was displayed on a range indicator, and also fed to the ballistic computer by a rotating shaft and gear system. The ballistic computer was a collection of gears and cams-- <a href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2006/07/bringing_the_rodgers_home.html">like the computer in the USS John Rodgers</a>&nbsp;(if rather smaller!)&nbsp;--which had a handle so that the gunner could select the type of ammunition that was to be fired. Each type round has a different muzzle velocity, and therefore the computer has a different cam for each round. The computer would take the range data, merge it with the velocity data, and via a set of rotating shafts, supply this information to the gun's super-elevation mechanism, resulting in the gun being elevated above the gunners line of sight sufficiently for the round to overcome the downward pull of gravity on its way to the target, all while the Gunner was still visually locked onto the target.&nbsp;<br /><br />The precision of this &nbsp;fire control system was pretty much wasted in Vietnam - where most engagements were the tank equivalent of hand-to-hand, which led to some adaptations in how vehicles were crewed.&nbsp;&nbsp;In Vietnam it was fairly common to take the gunner out of the turret and put him on the back deck with an M16 or M79 grenade launcher&nbsp;for close-in protection. This also afforded him some protection from mines, and indeed the tank commander and loader often rode on the turret roof or the hatch lips when mines were expected - though if you had to hit a mine while riding in a vehicle, the M48 was a much better choice than the other options&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;As the pictures show, apparently most M48's in Vietnam had the commander's .50 cal. mounted on top of the cupola on that field expedient pintle. This location gave a better field of fire, was faster to reload, and less prone to jamming than when the M2 was placed on its side inside the armored cupola. I'm thinking the TC still felt pretty nekkid shooting the .50.&nbsp;</p><p>The Germans still had some M48s (muchly upgraded) in service when&nbsp;I was in Germany in the early 80's, serving with their reserve forces, and they can still be found around the world.<br /><br />I've got one more post about the&nbsp;M48, when I get around to it.<br /><br />H/t to <a href="http://ftp.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m48.htm">FAS </a>for the description of the fire control system.</p>]]>
      
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  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1.9667-comment:77620</id>
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    <title>Comment from Blake Kirk on 2008-08-30</title>
    <author>
        <name>Blake Kirk</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[Murphy's Law of War #&nbsp;34:&nbsp;&nbsp; Antennas attract projectiles.<br />
<br />
Corollary the First:&nbsp; The larger or more numerous the antennas, the larger and more numerous will be the projectiles they attract.<br />
<br />
Corollary the Second:&nbsp; Do not walk next to the poor schmuck who is humping the radio.<br />]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-08-30T13:01:34Z</published>
    <updated>2008-08-30T13:01:34Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1.9667-comment:77608</id>
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    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2008-08-29</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh!</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        <![CDATA[Yeah, I always felt inconspicuous on a battlefield where I was in&nbsp;the only vehicle with 4 antennae...]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-08-30T00:27:44Z</published>
    <updated>2008-08-30T00:27:44Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1.9667-comment:77604</id>
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    <title>Comment from Hunter on 2008-08-29</title>
    <author>
        <name>Hunter</name>
        <uri>http://hhh</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://hhh">
        The Engineers used the M48 chassis for some of the AVLB (Armored Vehicle Launched Bridge)systems. A naked chassis, without a turret, and two hatches side by side behind the driver&apos;s hatch.
When used that way, the only armament on board was a couple of grease guns (M3)or maybe an M16/M203 combo.
We were still fielding the M48 AVLB and the M60 AVLB at the same time as late as 1987-88, in Germany.
As always, on the battlefield, stay away from the strange stuff, for it shall attract all the wrong kind of attention.


    </content>
    <published>2008-08-29T23:45:12Z</published>
    <updated>2008-08-29T23:45:12Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1.9667-comment:77547</id>
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    <title>Comment from Cannoneer No. 4 on 2008-08-29</title>
    <author>
        <name>Cannoneer No. 4</name>
        <uri>http://cannoneerno4.wordpress.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://cannoneerno4.wordpress.com">
        <![CDATA[They were fielding M60 and M60A1 &nbsp;MBT's in Germany while making do with M48's in Vietnam.&nbsp; Gas-burners were LOUD!!&nbsp; In the late '70's&nbsp;the tanks were diesel but the M88 recovery vehicles were still gas.&nbsp; A feller could get his eybrows singed off trying to hook up a tow bar.&nbsp; We weren't as fanatical about hearing conservation as we should have been, either.&nbsp; <br />
<br />
Blake touched on it, but I want to point out that the M85 MG was a totally different gun from the M2HB and linked ammo for one was not usable for the other.&nbsp; Same round, different link.&nbsp; The M85 carried its ammo in a coil around and inside the cupola and when your storage bin was empty you had to stop and replenish from your banana boxes on the turret floor.&nbsp; I have pulled three or four charging handles clean off.&nbsp; They were just steel cable with a plastic handle.&nbsp; The M85 could be fired buttoned up, and it had an optic sight reticule, which if you could figure out would put on you target in 5 rounds.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-08-29T10:27:29Z</published>
    <updated>2008-08-29T10:27:29Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1.9667-comment:77529</id>
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    <title>Comment from The Armorer on 2008-08-28</title>
    <author>
        <name>The Armorer</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        I hate it when you&apos;re right, John.
    </content>
    <published>2008-08-29T00:06:22Z</published>
    <updated>2008-08-29T00:06:22Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1.9667-comment:77527</id>
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    <title>Comment from J.M. Heinrichs on 2008-08-28</title>
    <author>
        <name>J.M. Heinrichs</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[&nbsp;'Coincidence' rangefinder, not 'stereoscopic' ... the Leopard 1 had a stereoscopic rangefinder which was more accurate but required much practice, and stereo vision.<br />
<br />
Cheers]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-08-28T22:32:57Z</published>
    <updated>2008-08-28T22:32:57Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1.9667-comment:77526</id>
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    <title>Comment from RetRsvMike on 2008-08-28</title>
    <author>
        <name>RetRsvMike</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[i'm not so sure that's the name of place, so much as it was probably a sign put up by the poor dumb sappers in an attempt to convey information regarding the fordability...<br />
<br />
&quot;Can When Lo&quot;<br />]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-08-28T21:27:15Z</published>
    <updated>2008-08-28T21:27:15Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1.9667-comment:77525</id>
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    <title>Comment from Blake Kirk on 2008-08-28</title>
    <author>
        <name>Blake Kirk</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[I've seen the &quot;fire-control-computer&quot; (which is actually a mechanical integrator,)&nbsp;on board the USS <em>Alabama</em> in Mobile.&nbsp; It's about the size of four washing machines jammed together.&nbsp; <br />
<br />
As long as you have the time to work the bugs out in advance, there's no reason why one cannot achieve reasonable first-round accuracy with a mechanical system.&nbsp; Especially if one assumes from the outset, as the Navy does, that they will observe and adjust as required to put effective fire on the target.&nbsp; The big advantage that the US&nbsp;had in WW2 was that they (the battleships, at least,)&nbsp;had radars fitted to the main battery directors that could visualize the fall of the rounds in relation to the target.&nbsp; It made a big difference when <em>Washington</em> and <em>South Dakota </em>were engaging&nbsp;&nbsp;<em>Kirishima</em> and her escorts off Savo Island in November of 1942.]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-08-28T19:19:46Z</published>
    <updated>2008-08-28T19:19:46Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1.9667-comment:77523</id>
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    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2008-08-28</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh!</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        <![CDATA[Heh.&nbsp; &quot;Welcome Home, Bill.&quot;]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-08-28T18:57:40Z</published>
    <updated>2008-08-28T18:57:40Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1.9667-comment:77521</id>
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    <title>Comment from BillT on 2008-08-28</title>
    <author>
        <name>BillT</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        <![CDATA[Yeah, but *we* had to fact-check the caption for ya, didn't we?<br />
<br />
Can Lo. <br />
<br />
Hah. And again, hah.<br />]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-08-28T18:08:11Z</published>
    <updated>2008-08-28T18:08:11Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1.9667-comment:77518</id>
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    <title>Comment from RetRsvMike on 2008-08-28</title>
    <author>
        <name>RetRsvMike</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[two and a half turns on the knob gets ya to 1200 meters for battlesight....<br />
<br />
each one (on the M60A1) was just a wee bit different in the turn count, so you had to spend some time on the boresight line getting your fine motor skills tuned into each particular one if you ever had to jump turrets (ick! going down range to qual in somebody ELSE's turret!)...<br />
<br />
ah, me heart goes pitter pat when ya durka durka me like that!<br />]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-08-28T17:59:14Z</published>
    <updated>2008-08-28T17:59:14Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1.9667-comment:77512</id>
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    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2008-08-28</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh!</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        <![CDATA[Heh.&nbsp; I was going to spare everybody the details of the Rodgers, seeing as how I'd stunned them with with the M48.<br />
<br />
Some of our readers have a low tolerance for what they call &quot;durka-durka&quot; talk...]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-08-28T16:48:32Z</published>
    <updated>2008-08-28T16:48:32Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1.9667-comment:77510</id>
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    <title>Comment from XBradTC on 2008-08-28</title>
    <author>
        <name>XBradTC</name>
        <uri>http://xbradtc.wordpress.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://xbradtc.wordpress.com">
        <![CDATA[I'm sure you've read Donn Starry's &quot;Armor in Vietnam&quot; and suspect that was your reference for some of this. <br />
<br />
Couple of quick notes, the reason why the fire control computer was so much smaller than the John Rodgers was because it solved only one variable, range, while the computer for the destroyer solved for range, range rate, bearing rate (ie, leading the target) altitude (for anti-aircraft fire), coriolis effect and a bunch of other variables. <br />]]>
    </content>
    <published>2008-08-28T16:29:06Z</published>
    <updated>2008-08-28T16:29:06Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
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