We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2010 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:00:11 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2010 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification [Kat] I'm surprised we haven't linked this before, but I am finding the back and forth over Buchanan's book extremely interesting. It starts with a predictable book by Buchanan: Churchill, Hitler and "The Unnecessary War’: How Britain Lost Its Empire and the West Lost the World I haven't read the book, but I understand the premise is what is in the title. Pretty much, Buchanan insisting that decades of bad decision making by western nations, wars of aggression (by the west!), ending with a very tough Treaty of Versailles in 1918 is what leads to the rise of Hitler and... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html Wed, 18 Jun 2008 00:40:35 -0600 "It's Kevin Frei's *name*. Take my word for it." Hookay, I withdraw my counter-snark regarding a perceived snark. The rest of my comments stand. And, as we all love quotes... "I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it". B.S. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74489 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74489 Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:28:47 -0600 Kevin (G) - while you have been and no doubt will be snarked in this space (that's how you know you're loved, right?) I assure you that "Kevin Frei" is not a snark. It's Kevin Frei's *name*. Take my word for it. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74482 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74482 Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:47:38 -0600 this issue over this Hanson bloke. I will also make the observation, that this author, so smug in his knowledge makes this glaring and factually false statement (among others) while touting his credentials. "When I last looked the United States had not expanded its war on radical Islam by invading democratic India." India? Hindus-R-Us? Perhaps the 'historian ' should take a lesson in basic social geography 101. If he just made an oopsie, and meant Pakistan... well, evidence seems to show that we are 'invading' that Muslim country in our war on radical Islam. Though, I thought it was a war on terror, not a war against a religion... hmmmm. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74480 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74480 Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:32:44 -0600 http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson061608.html June 16, 2008 Reply to Patrick J. Buchanan Pseudo-Historian, Very Real Dissimulator by Victor Davis Hanson PajamasMedia.com ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74462 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74462 Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:49:34 -0600 Roosevelt was a Democrat! Roosevelt was a Democrat! Roosevelt was a Democrat! usw. Cheers http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74440 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74440 Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:12:48 -0600 Regarding evil and picking fights in which to destroy it... While it is true that we didn't know about the Nazi holocaust until after the war in Europe was well underway... We DID know that Stalin and his thugs in the USSR were actively implementing a multi-million person pogrom in all the Russias. Hell, the NYT pulitzer prize winning reporter Walter Duranty knew of the State sanctioned and implemented famine in the Ukraine in the 30's that deliberately starved to death millions. But he covered it up. That is, he lied and yes, millions died. We, or rather, our government KNEW of this holocaust, this evil. Yet did nothing but lavish praise on the Kremlin. So, bang the war drums to invade the USSR or not? It didn't work out so well the first time, White and Green armies notwithstanding. Hitler was indisputably evil, Stalin was even worse. Guess which one our Prez admired and affectionately called "Uncle Joe"? Hindsight in history is a benefit that those actually making the history seldom enjoy. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74432 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74432 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 23:16:18 -0600 Time had HItler as man of the year, twice! Nobody believed as we do now, with hindsight, back then. And let us not forget that to do so FDR would've had to convince all but his closest friends to go down a path that would run up an insane level of debt, get hundreds of thousands killed or maimed, and on his say so. That's a pretty tall order, and sans Pearl impossible because he was already doing everything legally possible, including abusing neutrality in the worst way, to affect the outcome. Even with the Holocaust I doubt you'd get the entire nation to throw down sans PH. The isolationism that was the national gestalt was utterly against it. Just about everything was against the US getting involved directly before Pearl. If one does not accept that I posit one is not playing in reality. I now choose to flay you alive and hang your hide on a bramble the next time you grab the last Belgian ale out of the fridge... Yipe! (Sticks a 50 in the fridge while slinking away quietly) ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74431 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74431 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:10:18 -0600 Bill...I can't see hotmail from work. I'm lucky they let this site pass through the filters. On the subject of what we could or could not do, I think it all revolves around what we were willing to recognize first and how early. Obviously, it would have meant starting to get on a ramped up war footing in '36 instead of '39 or '40 when we finally declared a national emergency and started drafting men. There is no doubt, everything would have had to come together at the right time. But, there is also no doubt, if we could start doing it in '39 we could have started in '36. As in all things, it's what we wanted to do when, not whether we could. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74425 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74425 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:46:48 -0600 ...maybe we should have gone aggro on them much earlier because they were evil. We would have gotten our butts kicked, but good. In 1940, the Wehrmacht was the most battle-hardened modern army on the face of the planet. Not only were *we* still training with broomsticks, the only way we could have sent troops across the Atlantic would have been via the Cunard Lines == in steerage.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74424 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74424 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:31:31 -0600 Saying that simply because it is evil that we must go absolutely aggro on their tuckusses? That's conditional, and always is. We didn't go to war with the Nazi Reich because they were evil(hell, we partnered with the equally evil USSR against the NR), but for a host of other factors. I know the propoganda says otherwise, but it wasn't because they were evil. Pardon me, but 40 million people (direct casualties) later, maybe we should have gone aggro on them much earlier because they were evil. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74422 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74422 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:18:20 -0600 Blame Unka Bill! Blame! He's the one who had to be a smart aleck! I didn't *have* to be, I *chose* to be. Just as I now choose to flay you alive and hang your hide on a bramble the next time you grab the last Belgian ale out of the fridge...]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74421 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74421 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:18:16 -0600 PS...Thanks for fixing my spelling John. I was driving to work thinking about "uber" v. "unter" only to discover it was fixed by the time I got here. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74420 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74420 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:09:44 -0600 Heh. Sends the Hand of Vecna out after Ry. Don't make me get the Orb. Or the Eye. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74415 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74415 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:50:28 -0600 I'd say there's a division between the rationality of ones methods and ones goal or philosophy. Exactly, Soob. To bust into a corny, but easily gotten available, means of doing this we can look at the Dungeons and Dragons plane of character alignments(at least the 1st ed one). Good and evil exist independent of law or chaos. Chaotics being unpredictable, waaaay zany, overly emotive, and irrational. Lawfuls being very calculating and rational. Whether one uses that prediliction toward chaos/lawfulness for good or evil is independent of being irrational or rational. "And, I'd opine, the ruling theocracy are much more interested in continuing to be the ruling theocracy than they are in reducing themselves and their country to radioactive ash. Exactly. Which is why actions otehr than invasion are possible, and by that I mean things other than just another round of economic sanctions. Sigh. Get an Instalanche today and look what we're sinking to... beets. (points toward Iraq) Blame Unka Bill! Blame! He's the one who had to be a smart aleck! Unka Bill! He's the one you want to use the Ruler Of Argghhh! on the knuckles of. (scampers for cover(3/4, +2 to AC) and concelament(1/2, 20% chance of miss even if you make your roll)). ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74410 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74410 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:30:54 -0600 Great post and discussion. I'd say there's a division between the rationality of ones methods and ones goal or philosophy. Expansionist imperialism is rational. Seeking the dream of the perfect race through genocide is not. I cringe a bit when people invoke Hitler when discussing Ahmadinejad and Iran. While they share a common bond in blatant anti-semitism the two could not be different. Hitler built and ruled an empire. Ahm blusters and snorts and generally makes a fool of himself but he doesn't rule an empire or even Iran. He's a convenient mouthpiece and political tool used by the ruling theocracy. And, I'd opine, the ruling theocracy are much more interested in continuing to be the ruling theocracy than they are in reducing themselves and their country to radioactive ash. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74407 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74407 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:07:50 -0600 Sigh. Get an Instalanche today and look what we're sinking to... beets. But yes, we're still at war with beets. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74405 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74405 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:56:15 -0600 Did Bill Buckley ever find out? That could be the reason John's not getting invites to post at The Corner... I dunno. Did Buckley know we're at war with beets too? It could be the beets thing. Wait, we're still at war with beets, right? ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74404 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74404 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:45:36 -0600 hell, we partnered with the equally evil USSR against the NR Did Bill Buckley ever find out? That could be the reason John's not getting invites to post at The Corner...]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74402 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74402 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:36:47 -0600 Thanks for the link, Kevin; now I don't have to read the book. Cheers http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74399 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74399 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:46:23 -0600 Can't call something evil? Never said that, and I think one should always be clear as to why and whom one calls evil. Saying that simply because it is evil that we must go absolutely aggro on their tuckusses? That's conditional, and always is. We didn't go to war with the Nazi Reich because they were evil(hell, we partnered with the equally evil USSR against the NR), but for a host of other factors. I know the propoganda says otherwise, but it wasn't because they were evil. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74396 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74396 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:21:20 -0600 I haven't brought it up because I don't want to spend the time reading the damn book. I have a life and six other fargin' books to read. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74395 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74395 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:19:42 -0600 LOL..Ry..not to push your buttons, but I thought I couldn't say "evil". ;) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74393 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74393 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:31:32 -0600 I have to step in and play Inigo Montoya. Rational actor doesn't mean what is implied here. Rational actor comes from game theory and is defined as a person/group with a set of stated goals whose actions coincide with said goals. That. Is. It. Hitler was extremely a rational actor. He was also exceedingly evil. The two are mutually exclusive. Being evil does not make one irrational, it just makes one someone who deserves a bullet in the brainpan. (Just a tip, Kat, there've been times when the US has loudly told the world what we were going to do, what our plans are, and dared them to stop us. Iraq is just the latest example. Axis of Evil? Yup. That isn't irrational. It may be stupid, but it isn't irrational unless one is striving for secrecy in these things.). Hitler, evil? Si. Irrational? Non. Stupid at times(moving the Panzers away from Hoth in the AGC for example), evil as hell, but not irrational. I'm not a Buchanan sympathizer, he embarrasses me as a Catholic often, and haven't read any of the reviews or the book. Just speaking to the abuse of language. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74392 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74392 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:29:41 -0600 http://buchanan.org/blog/2008/06/pjb-the-good-war-and-the-terrible-peace/ ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74391 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74391 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:13:55 -0600 Excellent analysis, Kat. I think one of GatewayPundit's commenters got it right: Buchanan is a 1930s-style isolationist with all that entails. He'd have felt right at home among Charles Coughlin's congregation. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74374 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/06/madmen_at_the_h.html#comment-74374 Wed, 18 Jun 2008 06:27:11 -0600