We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html Tue, 23 Sep 2008 16:57:53 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification [Kat] It was interesting to read FbL's post Monday and the responses. While you might be tired of hearing about the Vets for Freedom stop in Kansas City, for me, it gave me several experiences to draw from and an opportunity to expand my own education on things military and war. One of those experiences was meeting a pacifist. No, he wasn't there to protest. In truth, the meeting was extremely ironic because he was a local book seller who was providing the books, House to House, for Bellavia to sign. The book is subtitled as "an epic memoir of... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html Wed, 02 Apr 2008 00:30:07 -0600 Actually, Trias, I think you did it rather well. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71521 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71521 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 15:31:03 -0600 Interesting post. The uncle and the father should have opened your eyes a little. You saw there some who don't fit 'hero' for you yet were in the military. While more are of the kind you appreciate not all are. I think disconnection is one of the things that makes it hard for the soldier to return to civilian life and also one of the things spawning these anti war movements. The US seems more connected but here the disconnect is near absolute. It's also mostly driven not by citizens but by the military. The few physical locations (which most don't even know about) are off limits. The official word form the military is rare curt press releases and personal contact is rare because there are few in the military here and they don't talk to civilians. And how many civilians would bother to hear them anyway? So it's hardly surprising no one has a clue about them. Indeed my father was in the military but I've learnt more about what goes on from this blog than my sum total in Australia. So what do you have then? A bunch of men with guns that are apparently trained to kill people because the government said so. You know of the ones who i identified as having been in the military here my whole life it is a sum total of 4 people and every single one was a dubious character. If i hadn't braved this blog world I've prolly still think as shallowly and negatively as I used to about the soldier, much like many over here do if they think about them at all. It's not hard to see where the mistrust comes from. Nor is it hard to see why the appreciation isn't there. You can't appreciate things you don't know. Maybe the disconnect is good. After all we here don't really get very excited when one of our Soldiers die. Sadly it's because few care. But politically it might be a winner hmm? There is a lot of talk of military partners being family. I can understand the closeness that can result from living together esp under high stress and keeping each other alive would make for strong bonds. But I don't feel comfortable with the family word. I admit I'm not real keen on mine for reasons one should use one's brains for but to me a family that isn't there when you need them isn't worth very much. And really these wounded how many of them have had this kind of family there for them? And if family left their brother/son etc to a support system like yours? Well not a very nice family if you ask me. I could be wrong there of course. I sure hope so but it doesn't appear to gel. Perhaps you all help each other and visit etc. I just hear of too many of them adrift to feel comfortable with this 'family' concept. Your kind of 'pacifists' are better read to mean anti-war not anti-violence. And most aren't even that, they are more reasonably said to be anti establishment. Which means anti-war because the establishment wants the war. Given the right circumstances violence and war will pop right out of them. Of course real pacifists do exist too. personally I think they are closer to apathists. or however you would spell it. Ok I will shuddup now. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71520 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71520 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 15:24:25 -0600 Yes, Kat, the Left is still all about the valiant struggle of the people against the vile "military-industrial complex." They love that term, and "progressive" as they are, they'll never give it up. Never! I don't really have a big problem with people being pacifists. That's their prerogative, and I think true pacifists are rare. Problem is, too many self-proclaimed pacifists are really just itching for a violent anti-war protest. I think they really don't see themselves for what they are. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71518 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71518 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 12:36:09 -0600 I have a couple of clients who are military contractors. Business has been VERY good these past few years... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71517 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71517 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 12:20:19 -0600 Yes. My favorite mercenary. ;) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71513 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71513 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 11:26:30 -0600 And don't forget me. I'm one of those mercenary bastids, too. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71511 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71511 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:08:45 -0600 don't forget food, construction, etc http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71504 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71504 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:07:41 -0600 I'm sure that when this guy, and others like him, say "Military-Industrial Complex", they're specifically talking about large contractors who make weapons systems like Raytheon, General Dynamics, Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, Hughes, Sikorsky, etc. etc. They never think about all the other smaller, often "Mom & Pop" businesses that are subcontracted by these larger corporations: the farmers, textile workers, metalsmiths, mill workers, factory employees, etc etc etc, and the impact they have on the economy as a whole and to our tax base. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71503 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71503 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 08:53:59 -0600 Maj Mike. hahaha. You know, I didn't even think about it until you wrote that comment. So true. I'm sure he doesn't see himself as part of the "military-industrial complex", but how ironic that he actually was, at least, "profiting". http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71498 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71498 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 07:53:47 -0600 sounds to me as if this book seller will be profiting quite well from this war... mayhap he should stop selling books.. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71497 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71497 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 07:39:09 -0600 Then again, we weren't that far off in what we wanted for the world: peace. We just have different ideas on how we're going to get there. Indeed. We believe in the concept that "Peace Through Strength" will deter those who wish us harm or will allow us to end the conflict if deterrence fails. They believe that we can always talk through our problems if only we understood each other better, never grasping that conflict often occurs when we do, in fact, understand the other side's intent to harm us all too well.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71494 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/the_pacifist_an.html#comment-71494 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 07:14:58 -0600