We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html Tue, 23 Sep 2008 16:56:26 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification [Kat] Since I'm home sick, I have time to read and write about some subjects here. Ry linked to an article called "What Have We Learned?" At first, I was kind of going along with the guy about not learning important lessons from history and that, yes, globalization has a way of turning shared experiences on their heads as well as bringing out all sorts of crackpots and petty grievances that can effect a nation state. People are no longer solely dependent on a national history or identity, but can choose from many different ideas and data points. We know... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:36:11 -0600 http://www.historyonthenet.com/WW1/causes.htm Contrary to your view, I think it's clear that all of those smaller wars were serious enough to compel European nations to form these alliances in an attempt to protect themselves from future such wars. But as is often the case, Murphy's Law and the Law of Unintended Consequences prevailed. Instead of just another of the smaller wars ensuing, these alliance structures ultimately created the conditions that led to the continent-wide campaign that killed millions.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72202 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72202 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:10:55 -0600 Sorry, fdcol63, you are correct; I should have been more specific. Yes, I was referring to the Napoleonic wars. Armies numbered in the hundreds of thousands, and occasionally topped the million mark if counting both sides. Casualties numbered in the hundreds of thousands. For example, the Grande Armee entered Russia with 650,000 men, but escaped with only 40,000. By those metrics, the above wars hardly count. True, the troop counts were not inconsequential, but all of the first three mentioned were of short duration and limited damage. The Franco-Austrian war lasted about 2 1/2 months (April 29 - July 11 1859), the Austro-Prussian is also known as the Seven Weeks War, and the Franco-Prussian war only 10 months. In fact, the latter war (begun July 19, 1870) was in effect over after the Battle of Sedan (September 2, 1870) so that part of the war which actually decided anything was over in 6 weeks. The Prussians lost c. 28,000 dead out of c. 128,000 casualties for the entire 10 months. The bloodiest battle was Gravelotte, where the Prussians lost 4,500 dead and 15,000 wounded, out of 146,000 men. By comparison, Meade lost 23,000 out of 82,000 at Gettysburg. So, while the 1870 was was not inconsequential, there was arguably not much immediate impact for most Europeans. I would say that the French remember the suppression of the Commune in 1871 far more vividly than their combat losses to the Prussians. I must conclude that none of these wars made much of an impression on the general populace, with the exception of France, wherein a deep thirst for revenge (or revanche) against Germany was introduced. It never seemed to occur to the froggies that they might be beaten again. I would even so far as to say that most Frenchmen were quite eager to kick Prussian buttocks in 1914. Finally: yes, the military leaders, at least, should have paid attention to the results of the Balkan wars; but hey, it's the Balkans, right? Who cares what happens to those losers? {/snerk} Seriously, I can't think of a single military leader in the West who paid any attention to those wars, much less took away any lessons, especially in the use of machine guns. Bottom line: none of those wars introduced any sort of serious comprehension of what real war was like in the hearts of Europeans, which made the shock of reality even worse when it did hit. Some historians, such as H. Stuart Hughes would say that the first world war had a far greater emotional impact on Europeans than the second, even though the latter caused far more widespread death and destruction. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72195 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72195 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:53:01 -0600 No wars in Asia, Africa and Europe because millions haven't died??? They didn't need to invade their neighbors, they were quite busy internally. How many Chinese died since Mao took over in 1949? How many Africans died since 1960?? Biafra, Congo, Angola, Algeria (France), Chad, Ruwanda, Ethiopia, Ivory Coast, Liberia and other places I have trouble spelling. Then there is the old Soviet Union. Not counting the millions of people that didn't die all over the world because of them; how many died internally? According to how one classifies a war and in a discussion with my daughter; I tried to add up all the places in the world where people are killing people...I stopped at 30. Over 20 had something to do with religion...OK Muslims. Yup...no wars here. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72162 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72162 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:44:53 -0600 Maybe he would have been better to say "great war", with millions killed? Maybe, more succinctly, it would be the last war where the gallants rode off on chargers. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72161 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72161 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:11:11 -0600 ... I would make is that Europe entered the Great War in a gay and feckless manner (the last real war having occurred a century before) ... Not to be pedantic, but I'm a little confused by this. Which "last real war" a century before are you talking about? This sounds like you're saying Europe hadn't seen a real war since the Napoleonic Wars, but my reading of history is much different: 1859: Franco-Austrian War (or Austro-Sardinian War) 1866: Austro-Prussian War 1870-1871: Franco-Prussian War 1912-1913: Balkan Wars Not to mention others on the fringes, like the Crimean War, Greek War of Independence, or all their colonial wars. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72160 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72160 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:23:52 -0600 I would make is that Europe entered the Great War in a gay and feckless manner (the last real war having occurred a century before), and the Second World War just reinforced the learned trauma, after having completely pooch-screwed the first war. Mmm..yes, though we eventually did enter WWI to some great "hurrahs", we also did so with some serious debate and previous demand to stay out of it. SAme with WWII. We don't exactly run into war these days with some sort of "gay and feckless" joy of sending the troops off. Nor bringing them back for that matter.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72153 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72153 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 00:51:48 -0600 [Sorry. Your comment has been deleted by the neo-con, Jewish Kabal. Feel my power.] [Ah, the estimable Mr. Dingleberry. Again stealing bandwidth for his off-topic diatribes, he makes his quarterly visit. For all the blogs he visits to dump his junk upon, he has a grand total of 3,418 visits when I checked. Clearly, his message resonates with the masses, and his marketing skillz are legendary!] http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72152 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72152 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 00:49:26 -0600 truly be oppressed, as opposed to Tim Robbins/Susan Sarandon oppressed. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72148 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72148 Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:56:11 -0600 "Most Americans have been fortunate enough to live in blissful ignorance of its true significance." I pray that we keep this so, by fighting the wars they help create on THEIR land, not our own.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72125 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72125 Thu, 17 Apr 2008 13:05:34 -0600 American liberal fantasies of European sophistication, diplomatic prowess, and pacifistic maturity. What rubbish. The truth is more "Steynian": Europeans were able to call on the United States to save them from their self-created horrors in WW1 and WW2. We rebuilt their infrastructure with the Marshall Plan, and then we stayed and provided the defensive umbrella that safeguarded them during the Cold War from the Communists who American liberals also wanted to emulate. During the 2 world wars, entire generations were lost, leaving "old" Europe with nothing more than immature and inexperienced adolescents running their societies, free to spend their own money creating socialistic Utopian and pacifistic Fantasylands while Uncle Sam paid for the security from the Soviet Bear. Their present focus on "pacifism" is a result not of their alleged "sophistication", "maturity", or diplomatic "prowess", but rather their current inability to defend themselves militarily as a result of their almost complete reliance on the United States for the past 60-odd years. Quite frankly, I don't think we need to be lectured by American liberals on the "superiority" of those who created 2 world wars, the horrors of the Holocaust, the atrocities of Serbia / Bosnia / Kosovo, and the present disintegration of their cultures and civil rights by unassimilated Muslim immigrants. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72123 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/04/ipb_hash_what_h.html#comment-72123 Thu, 17 Apr 2008 13:03:03 -0600