We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:02:27 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification AFSis asked me a question in email last night. She was going to add this into the H&I Fires post, but I thought it should stand alone. Here's her question: John, I tried to pose a question on H&I tonight, but my signon wouldn't work. I'm going to bed and will be offline until tomorrow night. Here's my question: Why do people learn to use guns? What is the appeal of target practice if you're not practicing to actually shoot something other than the target? My contention is that guns were invented as lethal weapons (after all, I can't... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:52:43 -0600 Ok John I get it. I'm not sure AFSis is looking for that kind of answer though. OH yeah I'm with you on the because factor alright. There's an old German trick; Warum? Darum. AFSis I'm going to go out on a wing here and say I think it's possible something about guns repulses you. It seems illogical given this blog environment but hey it sort of reads across the text. Is that true? If so remember not all have this feeling so for them it's not about looking for a reason to overcome the repulsion. The hurdle, if you like, is far smaller. The following is even more subjective guesswork. I present it though because i think it might clarify what AFSis is requesting. At least I hope i have interpreted it correctly. AFSis if you're looking for the initiator like the very first reason it was touched/shot it's probably something simple like why one uses scissors or the fridge. We pick up and try many objects as a matter of discovery. Probably they were available. They see dad do it and are curious or if they are older perhaps they see it as useful for whatever purpose. Then once it's experienced well we keep using it because it proved it's usefulness etc. With bangsticks the competitiveness and the power of it would be appealing as well. Any of you other guys have a take on this? I'm too gun clueless to be clear enough. I guess it's possible John doesn't even remember his very first reason, I doubt I would have. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69825 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69825 Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:59:31 -0600 As to the refined question "why did you learn to shoot?" I'm probably in the same boat as several others who commented. I learned to shoot with supervised bb gun and occasional .22 rifle sessions around age 5 or 6. At nine, I was (again supervised) participating in dove shoots. At ten, I was shooting competitively. I learned to shoot because, in the culture I grew up in, that's what a significant percentage of the kids did. I was too young to really analyze it. As things turned out, I really enjoy it and have some talent for it. That's not true for everyone, I have two cousins who had similar introductions- one loves to shoot and competes on a national level in a couple of shotgun sports, I doubt the other has picked up a gun in the last five years. He knows how to handle one, but it isn't his cup of tea. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69809 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69809 Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:12:30 -0600 Part of the problem is, I'm thinking, is that many of us saw "Why do people learn to use guns?" and "Why do you like to shoot?" as a form of chicken and egg question, depending on how you came to it, which isn't what you were after. To better refine it, and keep it a "me" question to maintain parallelism, it should read, "Why did you learn to use guns?" and "Why do you like to shoot?" And you don't want an answer to number 2, though many of the readers see the answer to number 2 as answering number 1, as well, hence the mutual frustration, exemplified in Jim B's response of "With all due respect, I believe that if you ask "why do you shoot" No answer can explain it." Why did I learn to use a gun. Because - wait, can't use that term, it's verboten. My answer is, "I like guns. I am fascinated by the technology and variety. Therefore, I learned to shoot them." Which, in one way or another, I said. The history aspect developed in parallel. I still have the feeling you are searching for something else in the answer, when it just isn't there. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69804 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69804 Fri, 15 Feb 2008 10:37:55 -0600 OH- Trias... THANK YOU for backing me up on the "because isn't a good answer" deal. Like I said, I don't accept that answer from anyone, on any topic. There is ALWAYS a reason. Re. your question about what interests me. Sure, I have lots of interests- but I've never had an interest in learning how to kill anything- even a target. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69800 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69800 Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:34:30 -0600 John, You told me why you LIKE guns- and I appreciate that. Most of what you said, I already knew from previous posts and conversations. My original question was "Why do people learn to use guns". It was not "Why do you like to shoot". I also asked "What is the appeal of target practice if you're not practicing to actually shoot something other than the target". That question was answered repeatedly, but my first question was rarely answered. Call it symantics if you want, but I was trying to figure out why people first picked up a gun and learned how to use it. I have a friend who was robbed at gunpoint and beaten. I know why she learned- to defend herself against any future attacks and because even if she could have gotten the gun away from the guy, she wouldn't have known how to use it. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69798 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69798 Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:30:21 -0600 I have *always* had a fascination with firearms. I got my first gun, a M1873 Springfield Trapdoor, when I was 15, as part of a family distribution of guns from the old family hardware store. All the males in the family got one. I still have it, natch. I'm into the variety of weapons I own because I'm into the history of it all, military and technological. These artifacts were there. As participants, so to speak, at events we only read about. I love to shoot them. Just for the sport of fitting myself to the tool (and adjusting the adjustable parts of the tool to me) for the purpose of hitting that elusive "x" in the center of the target. The combination of accounting for all the variables - the ammunition, the sights, the shooter, the micro-weather between the muzzle and the target. I'm into the guns and the shooting for the history, the technology, and the test - can I hit what I aim at, and with anything you hand me (which is also a soldierly combat skill, in truth). Because I wanted to. Simply put. I like guns, so I wanted to know how to use them. Sandman6 said "I shoot because guns go boom, bang, and ratatatatat. This makes me smile." You can sign me up for that, too. Which is just another facet of what I said above. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69796 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69796 Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:01:05 -0600 I call bull John. 'because' is inadequate. It's a way of evasion. One could do anything 'because' and the missing info is not given. Like why did you kill mum? Oh because. Or why did you donate your life savings to starving kids? oh because. It doesn't have to be your defensive "That secretly, deep inside, I revel in the thought that I have the power to kill?" But it's not just because. Actually it's the answer I get out of the kids sometimes. You have to dig to get the truth. Not that the truth is always bad. One cannot dig a John of Arghhh across a blog however. Still the question has been answered widely enough imo. I completely understand John's connection to old wars via the bangsticks of the age. That's like realism collecting. I guess i could understand the challenge/skills but I'd have to feel connected to the usefulness of said skills and I think that's a weak point for me. I don't understand AFSis either, have you never had any interest in guns? No games? no toys? no movies? TV shows? I am not a gun user probably never will be but I can't say I don't understand the attraction at all. Not that I really understand it well. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69771 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69771 Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:32:20 -0600 Ferrari costs, don't bother cause you can't afford one.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69750 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69750 Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:05:49 -0600 As a non-gun user, I don't see the attraction. I was a gun non-user for many, many years and was very attracted to guns and shooting. So don't accept that statement. Why was I attracted to guns? And why did I recently start shooting? Because shooting looked like fun. And it is fun for me. Obviously, it doesn't appear to look like fun to AFSister, as she doesn't "see the attraction." That's fine. But what sense does it make to debate and demand reasons for something that folks have already said very plainly is fun? Just as well argue about why someone likes one color more than other colors.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69740 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69740 Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:55:00 -0600 What? I didn't give that kind of answer, too? As for my 'defensiveness,' Pogue nailed that one, too. Exasperation would have been a more accurate description. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69728 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69728 Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:35:25 -0600 Actually Pogue, you gave me an excellent answer. So did Boq, Jeff, and Bloodspite. You gave me the reasons you learned to shoot, and why you continue to shoot. That's the kind of thing I was looking for. The only answer to any question I have a hard time accepting is "because"- doesn't matter what the question is, who asks it, or who answers it. There's a reason for everything, not just "because". http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69726 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69726 Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:54:28 -0600 Hey AFSis - I thought you asked why we shoot, and I answered that (for me). As far as why did I start? Easy - it looked fun. Same reason I tried a lot of things. Some I enjoyed and kept doing, some I didn't. I don't think anyone is getting defensive, but you are kind of coming off like "I don't accept that answer" to honest attempts to respond to your question. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69723 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69723 Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:08:55 -0600 I shoot because guns go boom, bang, and ratatatatat. This makes me smile. I'm kidding, of course. All my life, I've been around handguns, rifles, etc. I can even remember how easy it was to teach me about firearms safety. My grandfather went and bought a canteloupe, set it on a stump behind their house, backed off three steps, and hit it with a blast from his old Savage. He then looked me in the eye and told me "If you ever fool with firearms, that's what your head will look like. Treat every weapon with respect, and always assume that a weapon is loaded." I fired my first rifle at age 6, which was my grandfather's old .22 that I'm about 80% sure is still locked away in the big safe at my parents' house. Don't know why it wouldn't be. I fired my first shotgun, an old side by side .410 that my Dad bought off a friend of his for maybe $20, at the age of (ten???) Memory's a little hazy on that one. My first handgun was some piece of junk .380 that my Mom got somewhere. She's never been as badly into firearms as my Dad, my brothers, and myself. I'll admit, I haven't always been smart when it comes to weapons. Remind me sometime to tell the story of me, Dad, and his model 629 S&W. Hint: I was 14, 5'7", and all of 100 pounds soaking wet. I own weapons. Unfortunately, I don't currently have any of them with me, they're still in Georgia, but I know they're being taken care of. I have two 12-gauge shotguns, a Mossberg 500, and a Winchester 870. I have two rifles, a .300 WinMag and a .30-30 Winchester Model 94. I only have one handgun, a Glock 27 (if you haven't shot the .40 Smith, please do.....). I hunt in Michigan. I love it there, and yes, I eat what I hunt. I don't hunt for a trophy. I hunt for food. Venison, to me, is the best meat that God ever put on this earth. And if I can't use all the meat, I am more than willing to donate it to a less fortunate family. I shoot because I love it. It relaxes me, like someone said earlier, it makes the world go away until it's just you, the rifle, and the round. (Well, in my case, except for the .223.....I ain't never been good with that. Put something north of .30 in my hands, and then we're golden.) I shoot because I enjoy it, I shoot because I love it, and I shoot because the 2nd Amendment of the United States Constitution says I can. Hopefully, I didn't ramble too bad during this. It's just my $.02 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69721 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69721 Thu, 14 Feb 2008 04:11:41 -0600 AFSis, Dad was on the California Highway Patrol (state police) for 31 years and I can remember when they switched from revolvers to semi-auto pistols as well as when they got Ruger mini-14s and then switched to AR-15s. That's why we had guns in the house and why he had them for work. Now about the whole original purpose idea. Yes, I know it and have thought about it. But I don't dwell on it. I think the best analogy I can come up with is a civilian nuclear power reactor and the people who operate it. They all know that the original reason the atom was split was to make a terrible weapon. They put that same power to use to turn on a porch light. They don't dwell on the original purpose, only their reason for doing so. I'll give you a standing offer - Any time you're coming to Las Vegas, drop me a line and I'll be happy to take you out with my quiet, virtually recoil free .22 and we can go put holes in paper, cans, and anything non-living for fun. If you like it, great! If not, maybe I'll have provided some insight ;-) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69720 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69720 Thu, 14 Feb 2008 02:29:06 -0600 I haven't read the above, so this may be a duplicate: I shoot stuff because I just like things that go bang, and I really do like the potential lethality of it all. I love to shoot stuff, and the bigger and noisier the better. I've fired everything from an old luger to an M60A1 Main gun (and drove the tank for 2 months of tank gunnery), done M60mg doorgunner practice on a huey one time, hung 4.2in and 81mm mortar rounds, fired real and subcaliber LAWs, thrown grenades (that may not count), clacked of real claymore mines, fired M2 50cal and the machine guns on a tank, and so on. I've stood beside or sat on or near scores of firing tanks and got lots of pics (see the www.canted.com gallery), stood next people sending TOWs being sent down range, fired a 106 recoiless once, watched Cobras and A10 shoot up targets nearby with rockets and guns, watched napalm dropped in Hawaii, and all sorts of arty stuff get fired from Hawaii to Ft. Hood Graf. Bottom line, I really like things that go BOOM, and the bigger the boom the more it turns me on. Like John, however, I do not hunt or aim guns at living things. I have also been fortunate enough to never have to shoot at a person, and I've only ever been shot at once that I know of (for doing something I shouldn't have been doing in a place I shouldn't have been)--good thing the bad guys were crappy shots (or were being nice). For all that, however, I really do like being competant enough and comfortable enough with weapons to be able to defend myself if ever I need to. I don't want to shoot another person, but i sure want to be able to if I need to. That's the reason I have allowed my daughter to shoot things since she was around 8 (one of her uncles who lives in more open country could stock an arsenal with all manner of small arms, so whenever we go there, she gets to go out to the Gin to shoot. I don't ever want her to have to shoot someone, but I sure as the devil want her to be able to. What I find interesting too is that she sees nothing wrong with hunting "as long as you eat what you shoot, Dad." Good for her. As for me, I want to fire a howitzer someday, a 155, or better yet, and MLRS!!! And I'm still hoping to be near a shuttle sometime when it takes off, cause I figure that's got to be the biggest boom going. Short of that, I wanna hear another one of those MOABs go up, like the one thy fired off in Florida when I was there. We all heard it at Ft. Walton beach, my wife heard it 30 miles North in Crestview! It was dropped somewhere between.... Oh and as for the man-shaped targets, well why not? People don't come in black and white stripped circles.. :-) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69715 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69715 Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:07:05 -0600 Initially, historical interest led me to muzzleloader shooting, then flintlock muzzleloader. Which led to my oldest daughter (and later her brother) joining in competitive shooting. (And making friends with some very fine folk in the process.) Then, too, good firearms can be lovely machines, and the historical aspects arise again. Spending a morning and part of the afternoon trying to put small holes very close together can be extremely relaxing. And the company tends to be pleasant, putting a little icing on the cake. Haven't done any hunting, yet; but it's a possibility for the future, too. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69713 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69713 Thu, 14 Feb 2008 00:01:59 -0600 Yes. I have thought about what a gun was built for and used for. It's original iteration being the tool of large forces to invade or defend, resulting in death. I usually think about why I should own one above and beyond the skill and challenge as being a necessity for defense against hostiles, starting with any and all who would attack this country. I then think about it in terms of self defense as it became to be used thereafter and in terms of hunting though I never did enjoy that (one quail hunt was enough for me, thank you). The difference is, what you intend or want to do with it, as has been noted. Do I want to have to pick up a gun and defend against invading forces? Do I hope for it? Nope to either, but I would if I have to. I think a lot of people see it in those terms. I don't believe that a free people who are responsible for maintaining that freedom should rely on diplomacy or a few forces (percentage wise) to defend it. If we are not willing to do it, who will? In regards to self defense, the difference is whether you go looking for trouble or try to avoid it. even owning a gun doesn't make you super man. bullets don't bounce off. thus, like 99% of America with guns I do all the things a non-gun toting person does which is to not go into areas that I believe are dangerous if I can avoid them. Keep aware of my surroundings at all times but most specifically when I am alone, in less traveled areas (like parking lots at work after hours) or areas that are not well lit, etc, ec, etc I don't go around thinking "I got a gun. Let some punk try to rob me. I can kill him." That is just stupid. It's not the first thing on my mind at any point. The first thing is actually how I can avoid the situation all the time. I don't know about the rest of the people on this comment section, but I certainly never imagined the gun made me immortal or empowered me to be an idiot with my life or to take someone else's because I can. the last is for criminals. Once you've carried a gun and shot a gun, the idea that it can kill IS with you at all times. But, the idea becomes subconscious and you simply do things that maintain safety through the same subconscious and conscious efforts. But, I suppose that may be the difference between those who respect the power of the gun and those that don't. Finally, the defensiveness about your repeated question comes from the usual reasons. Most people that keep asking that question have a deep seated fear that people with guns ARE CRAZY and either are mesmerized by the power to kill or are all idiots who are likely to kill you either by accident or purpose. But, you got honest answers here. What people think about the gun is exactly what they wrote. They are neither made crazy, idiots or killers by owning a gun. As I once wrote to a fellow who thought all gun people were crazy and potential killers: Cain killed Able with a rock. when you see the rock lying in your yard, is your first instinct to fear it as a weapon? Or pick it up and hit somebody with it? People are who they are. They only "change" when they own a gun if they weren't who they thought they were in the first place. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69712 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69712 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:55:52 -0600 I am always bothered when people confuse the purpose of a gun with an intented use. The purpose of all guns is to put a projectile (bullet) at location X (where YOU aim). Anything beyond that is a use of the gun. To use a bad analogy what you said in other words is: cars and alcohol were only invented so you can drive drunk and kill people, that's the only reason to learn to drive. Why I shoot? The Zen of it, one trigger pull at a time. It takes huge metal concentration to put the bullet where you want it. Try it, try hitting a target at 25 yards and see if your head can be disorganized and unconcentrated. You will need clear focus and to quiet your body to get it done. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69711 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69711 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:20:19 -0600 I have a photo of myself, taken in 1970, wearing a sailor suit, riding my wheeled plastic duck and aiming my double barreled popgun at something that is out of the frame. I was still a couple of months short of 3 yrs old. I would say that's proof that I have always been into guns. I was probably 5 or 6 when I fired my first .22. Pat http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69710 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69710 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:02:02 -0600 What is my point... what is my concern? I'm not a gun user. I am not anti-gun. I am pro-gun ownership. But... not being a gun user, I posed a question: What made you want to learn how to shoot a gun? Answers have ranged from "it's relaxing and fun" to "Might as well have asked why I breath". So I have to wonder if many of the commenters have ever thought about the original purpose of guns, which is to kill. Pure and simple. Obviously, some have, but not all. And yes, I do realize that intent matters, and yes, I do believe that you can learn how to fire a gun without the desire to kill a person. As a non-gun user, I don't see the attraction. I don't know why anyone would want to learn how to use a gun, or perfect that skill, for any reason other than killing or defense. And apparently, asking why did you learn how to fire a gun makes everyone around here quite defensive about that decision. Defensive postures indicate you feel threatened by my question- which is all the more reason to explore your answer. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69709 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69709 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:54:22 -0600 Just because. Really. I mean you can parse the crap out of it. I like guns, just for the fact they are what they are. Therefore, I want to shoot them. What do you want? That secretly, deep inside, I revel in the thought that I have the power to kill? Sorry to disappoint you. It just ain't there. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69708 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69708 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:22:53 -0600 AFSis - Most of us well know we have acquired a skill capable of killing. Hunting is killing, after all. Meat eaters who buy their meat at the supermarket simply outsource the details. They are as complicit in the killing as the wielder of the knife, killing gun, or neck wringer. Heck, the meat eaters have created a market that causes most of the animals harvested to live very brief lives in very artificial circumstances. Not true of hunters. Many martial arts produce the same possibilities. Many skills are easily adaptable, you appear to think that we simply don't think about it and don't care about it. I think you're really very wrong in that perception, but perhaps I'm misreading something. Just what is your point/concern? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69707 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69707 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:16:44 -0600 Kim, I could get all sarcastic back at you.. but I won't. Why did you learn to shoot? I have a pretty good idea of why you like to shoot. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69706 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69706 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:59:23 -0600 breathe.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69705 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69705 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:53:33 -0600 Jeff, why did you Dad need guns for work? Police? Military? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69703 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69703 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:06:36 -0600 The initial reason I learned to shoot is just because it's fun. Dad took me out for my first time in the Arizona desert with a derringer and a coke can. A couple of years later I got an air rifle which was great for cans in the back yard. After that, it was the occasional trip to the range with Dad and his pistols (31 years on the California Highway Patrol) and shooting black powder, shotguns, and .22s in scout camp every year. I think Dad taught me and my brother and sister to shoot because he had guns in the house due to his work. If he hadn't it would have been Grandpa because he enjoyed shooting and hunting all around. I continued shooting after the first trips because I just thought it was fun to put rounds on target. I now own the .22 that was passed down to me from Grandpa and it's a fun little rifle! I've thought about hunting a couple of times, but I really don't see the point for me - I like beef, pork, poultry and fish. So yeah - it's been all about targets and fun my whole life. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69702 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69702 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:34:25 -0600 God - Do I hate hornets. They wouldn't let me pick ripe guavas from the trees in peace. Ripe Red Juicy ones would invariably be hanging right next to a dozen high-strung, little beasties; all packed tightly around their paper nest. When I turned 8, Pepe (my gramps) pulled out the old Coleman Pellet Rifle from the closed. The same rifle that my uncle had used back in the 50's. First thing he did was teach me the basics of shooting, plinking cans down 20 yards away. I quickly got the hang of it, and learnt to enjoy the calming feeling of putting that bit of lead dead center on Mr Goya's Beans. The hornets on the other hand, were an exercise on adrenaline rush. Step into the Guava Grove, smash and run for dear life. Solarcaine is good for stings, I soon leaned. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69701 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69701 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:02:54 -0600 OK. Kat has an excellent reason to learn about guns - if they're going to be around, you'd better teach the kids to respect them and how to handle them properly. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69700 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69700 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:58:43 -0600 Boq..at least you had a .22. We used to throw rocks at the nests behind the barn and then ran. Obviously, you "lost" if you got stung. Man, I could run fast when i was young. I personally learned to shoot because, first, my dad was a police officer who always had his gun hanging in his belt on the back of a chair or laying on the table to clean, so he taught us to handle the gun, to clean it and to shoot it so that we would not think it was an object of mystery. I took it further because I simply wanted to know and quickly learned to enjoy developing some skill. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69699 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69699 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:49:10 -0600 mmmmmm Cidra.... beautiful place, Boq! John, I don't understand the "just because" answer. I know that's your answer, but I don't accept that answer for anything. There's ALWAYS a reason, no matter what. There has to be something more to it, even if it's "Dad was doing it, so I wanted to try too", or "Guns give you power, and I wanted power over something- anything." http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69698 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69698 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:45:56 -0600 Because at the tender age of 8, AFS, I learnt that it was fun to take down hornet nests at a distance, with my trusty old double-cylindered .22 Cal. Coleman Pelet Rifle. Piss of them hornets and run like hell. This all happened at Gramps' old farm in Cidra - BTW http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69696 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69696 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:19:29 -0600 Because I wanted to. Simply put. I like guns, so I wanted to know how to use them. Not because I wanted to kill anything. Just because. Literally. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69694 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69694 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:17:27 -0600 OK... but why did you LEARN to shoot? Something made you all decide "I need to learn how to shoot a gun". What was it? I know why you like it, and I'm not ignorant enough to think that firing a gun makes you a murderer, but why did you learn in the first place? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69693 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69693 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:04:14 -0600 I don't shoot much any more, basically twice a year when our club takes assorted olde gunnes out for exercise. Still, I love, err LIKE guns and horde all I can. Think Castle size addiction here. (In fact some of my overflow now adorn the Castle!) Digging round in a big box an hour ago, I just rediscovered my first gun, a Stevens 14 1/2 Little Scout .22 rifle. Still got it! I had great fun with guns in school shooting at paper targets on the rifle team through High School and College. I often wished we had enough room to add 50 feet of culvert out the basement for an indoor range, but alas, the neighbors would complain about burrowing under the fence into their yard! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69689 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69689 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:08:17 -0600 Because there were those pesky Persians just across the water. And the Thebans. The Spartans... and let's not even get *into* the damned dirty Macedonians hanging up north. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69684 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69684 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:40:35 -0600 "... guns were invented as lethal weapons ..." is the main point and the one most non-gun fanciers latch onto quickly. Unfortunately, one can cast about and find similar problems with much of modern sport. The original sports featured in the modern Olympics are derived from military training activities. Cheers http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69683 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69683 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:37:44 -0600 And let me add: Because an awful lot of people want to keep me from doing so. Now if you'll excuse me, there's a bunch of folks telling me that I shouldn't put my head in this cement mixer.... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69680 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69680 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:57:04 -0600 For the same reason I have practiced with and keep a fire extinguisher. Practice is mildly entertaining, and sure there's a sense of accomplishment when I achieve a nice, tight grouping, but it's expensive and then there's the cleaning.... So mostly, it's that I want to be able to shoot well if I ever have to shoot. Simple as that. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69677 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69677 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:52:37 -0600 Those of you who double-posted - no worries. It's the famous "Castle Echo" and there is a little routine that runs around and cleans it all up. Thank you for not posting and posting and posting and posting and posting and posting and posting. that happens too, the the little cleaner daemon gets mad at me... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69673 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69673 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:23:40 -0600 Krusty the Clown has a point on the most important uses of guns for sure, but above & beyond that. I shoot for recreation & yes to relax. I live in the country & can shoot a couple shots or shoot all day from my yard where as pool requires another person & more organized game settings which is not my idea of relaxing usually. In my area modern Deer hunting began in the 60's as a bucks only sport. Naturally hunters would ask size, where & when it was killed . It became a matter of pride to kill a deer with larger rack early in the season. This has been good for the deer population to kill bucks only or prefering to kill bucks so ill say nothing against trophy hunting. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69672 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69672 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 13:17:03 -0600 I shoot for the same reasons that people like to do things like snowboarding, kyaking, or playing basketball, it's something I enjoy doing. However, snowboards, kyaks, and basketballs are worthless when it comes to defending yourself and others from violent attackers. A gun is not. So for me shooting is both a enjoyable passtime and a necessary skill for self defense. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69671 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69671 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:57:24 -0600 you can always come up here and go for deer. I can probably arrange permission to hunt our 80, plus another 240 acres that adjoin. Don't tempt me with treats like that. You'll end up seeing me more than you want ;) ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69667 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69667 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:39:40 -0600 Host, Please delete (one of) that double post and apologies. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69666 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69666 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:37:59 -0600 I think there is a bit more to shooting for a lot of people than just working on a skill. I think folks have a certain affinity for things that go "bang", like fireworks or explosions that are in a controlled environment. Watch the guys on Mythbusters (and the people watching the show) laugh when they blow something up. Learning a bit about guns and getting some proficiency at controlling them seems to spark a pretty primal sense of fun in a lot of people. Then there's the discipline and skill involved. As to trophy hunting, done right, a trophy hunter is a person who limits himself to taking only a particular animal that is not only a mature, but usually old and therefore extra-wary. Basically, someone who limits himself, but, rather than choosing to use a weapon with a shorter range, or only hunt in a particular manner (not that he might not do both of these as well) but by only taking very large or unusual examples of the species hunted. Unfortunately, that is not the picture the phrase usually connotes and the class of hunters denigrated by the guys who substitute money and sometimes lack of ethics for patience and skill, confused by the idea that the end (a big dead critter) is the point, rather than the journey. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69664 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69664 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:32:27 -0600 Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69663 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69663 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:22:42 -0600 My family came to America in the early 1600s. Relatives fought in the Revolutionary War. All four of my great grandfathers fought in the Civil War, two for the North, and two for the South. One died a prisoner. Another was one of three survivors of Co. E, Third Iowa Volunteers. At age eight, my father gave me a pellet gun, a Sheridan with a rifled barrel. With practice, I got so I could put two pellets in the same hole in the target reliably. At age twelve, my father gave me a .22 for my birthday. I won an open shooting contest at the local range, bringing home a Thanksgiving Turkey that my mom didn't want, getting her all mad at me. It went to charity. In the Army, I fired third in my battalion in basic. I have pointed a gun at someone while under orders on active duty. Now I spend a lot of time in the mountains at a second home. I've had bears in my kitchen four times. My daughter is eleven, so I keep a high-powered rifle in an unlocked and loaded condition in my home. When people ask why, I show them the tooth marks the bear left in the milk carton. So far, the bears haven't tried for my daughter or myself, so I've just called the Sheriff. He pops them with a rubber round from his 12 Gauge, and they go away. But they can't be trusted, and we are a part of their historical food group. I'll be damned if I'll be lunch. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69661 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69661 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:13:29 -0600 I shoot because it truly is a blast to combine all of the required skills & to see the hit on the target where you want it to land. It is also to practice a skill I hope never need to use - the ability to defend my family from any predators who decide to attack my family while out & about or even to break into my home to take either the life or the freedom of any member of my family. Such a predator will have no chance of committing their evil deed in my home. This is the home of sheepdogs, not the sheep that they prefer for their standard pray. Anyone who tells you that you can ban evil by banning guns has not learned the lesson of history. Look at the UK or the city of Washington DC for just a couple of examples of places where handguns are banned but murder & crime has skyrocketed. Evil exists & always will. You can decide to be a sheep & hope that predators never pick you, or you can be prepared for the worst but hope for the best. As for me & my house - we hope for the best but prepare for the worst. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69660 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69660 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:13:28 -0600 http://www.midkiff.us/index.php?i=Why%20Shooting.txt Thanks, questions like this really get me thinking! ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69659 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69659 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:13:21 -0600 Shooting is one of the few sport hobbies at which women have an advantage instead of a disadvantage. At the beginning stages women have a lower center of mass for greater steadiness of platform, and at the higher stages a woman's heartbeat is not as destabilizing to the body on average as is a man's. It is also a hobby based on discipline, relaxation, and steadiness, and you can decide for yourself if women have more of that than men. I think we can all stand to get some of that. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69658 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69658 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:06:30 -0600 Or is there?]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69656 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69656 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:03:02 -0600 I have two very different motivations depending on what kind of shooting I'm doing. Recreational shooting is very zen like. In particular my wife and I shoot NRA High Power competition which involves rifle shooting with irons sights out to 1000 yards, though usually we only shoot out to 600 yards. The amount of discipline and concentration involved make a competition week or weekend take complete control of your being - breath control, heartbeat, postion, technique, breaking the perfect shot - you can't do it if you're thinking about work, or the last shot, or anything other than the "now". I don't even compete with the other shooters, I compete against myself. A weekend match is like a vacation because of the complete disconnect from the rest of the world. I can't claim to be a hunter though we did go out and whack a couple of deer a few years ago. We ate venison for a year and thoroughly enjoyed it. Two small deer kept the two of us in meat for a year so economically it was a big gain, and morally I don't have a problem with it, indeed there's probably an arguement to be made that everyone who eats meat ought to be willing to kill it them selves (at least once.) As a deployable National Guard NCO and as a responsible citizen I also train. I train to be able to accurately engage a threat - whether it be an enemy soldier, a terrorist or a criminal threatening the life of my family or myself. Not only am I responsible for the final resting spot of every round I fire, I'm responsible for the decision to fire it in the first place. I do not take these responsibilities lightly. While I enjoy the training, it is deadly serious in its purpose. The satisfaction is derived from use a tool well and as intended here. (I'm referring to the training aspect.) Finally, as a collector, though now where near as deserving that title as our good host, the best answer I've ever heard to the question of "Why do you need all those guns?" is "Why do you need all those shoes?" :-) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69654 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69654 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:52:28 -0600 Oh - and did I mention: that to me, the smell of conflagrating double base propellants, make for great aroma therapy. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69648 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69648 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:32:36 -0600 Like so many others, I’ve always had a fascination with guns. I read a biography of Annie Oakley when I was in second grade, and I wanted to be her—I thought she was really cool! I like the way guns look, and I like how they feel in my hand. The wood and steel are aesthetically pleasing to me. Many of them are works of art in their own rights. I like knives, too, for the same reasons, but I’m too clumsy for knives.  I am not athletic, though my four brothers and sisters always were. I am also known as a nice person and I’m smallish and physically non-threatening—I don’t think anyone has ever been scared of me, including my children! I like it that I can excel at something that my brothers and sisters didn’t, and that I could be threatening if I had to. I like the power of them, and I like the noise they make. I like to go the range after a frustrating work day and just shoot things. I have no interest in shooting living things—a target is perfectly fine. I do like the bad guy targets, and I recently got some zombie targets online that are fun. Beyond that, I don’t know why I like guns. I just do. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69647 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69647 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:24:35 -0600 That's right, give them the love and respect they need. Learn how do they operate; for if you do, the won't be prone to bite the hand that feeds them. Regular belly-rubs with emulsions and ointments makes them real happy too. And when shooting, don't be rough with them. The gentle touch works best. Get into a comfortable stance, and become one with your target. Don't command your firearm to put its projectiles at a certain spot downrange; just convince your firearm that that is the best thing for them to do. Everything now comes naturally. Regulate your breathing; block out all ambient noise, and listen to your heart-beat. Only when shooter, firearm, and target are one in the same, gently pull-back on your index finger. REPORT - For an instant, all three become one. Ahhh - No wonder shooting is so relaxing!]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69646 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69646 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:18:17 -0600 Bloodspite - you can always come up here and go for deer. I can probably arrange permission to hunt our 80, plus another 240 acres that adjoin. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69643 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69643 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:01:46 -0600 I've always enjoyed shooting. Ever since I was a kid and Dad or one of the neighborhood dads would take me shooting, mostly plinking. I was never particularly good at it, but never bad either. In all my army years, I enjoyed shooting. What can I say, the noise, the tracers, the dust kicking up. I never had a particular desire to shoot anyone, and as for combat, the shooting was really a small portion of what good soldiers are doing, ie: manuever, communication, controling your soldiers, just keeping track of what was going on.That type of shooting was just part of the job. Shooting for shootings sake is relaxing and fun. Back in the old days, you used to be able to find a place near most towns where you could just go and shoot, not a range, but a dump or quarry. Burning off a couple hundred rounds of .22 or .223 with friends was a pleasant way to spend an afternoon. AFSIS may not believe it, but the thougt of shooting at people has no appeal to me. But I seem to have a pathological hatred of Coke cans. I've shot enough of them in my time. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69642 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69642 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:57:52 -0600 I've been an avid sportsmen since I was old enough to climb in to a deer stand by myself. My first gun was a Stevens Savage .20 single shot. I progressed from there to a Winchester Model 94 .30-30, an excellent deer gun for the mountains and laurels of North Georgia. My personal favorite now is a Stevens .30-06. Hunting has led me to be a conservationist of sorts. Long story. However I have not hunted since moving to the mid-west due to the lack of public lands to hunt and me not knowing anyone or where I can hunt save for my own families property in Georgia. 15 hour drive makes a weekend in a deer stand a tough sale. I was raised on firearms, and as a kid we used to skeet shoot, and target practice. When mmy grandfather would send us in the woods, as rounds are costly, he would give us a certain number of bullets. Come back with the same number or something to show for it. he reloaded all of our practice rounds himself. Now I use target practice as a way to strengthen my hands. It's hard for me to shoot now with a set of hands that could make martini mixers envious, but I do fair. Fair enough that I know I could do what I had to if I had to so to speak. I also do it to relax. It's a good excuse to get outside, breath some fresh air, and enjoy a pretty day. Shooting is one of your most degradeable skills, and mine has went very south since leaving the service, but its not as bad as it coud be. It's also a way for me to educate my daughter on what firearms are and for her to not take them lightly. One thing I don't want her to be is afraid of them, but I do want her to respect them. It's a fine line, but one my grandfather and father instilled well in me I think. I'd like to pass that and a love for the outdoors on to her, while I'm still able. And I want to know that when i can't deliver, I never have to worry about my wife or daughter and the protection they can provide for themselves. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69640 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69640 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:26:45 -0600 Lets see, why would anyone want to drive an automobile unless they just wanted to get to a particular destination. That is what they were invented to be -- transportation. Why would you want to drive one around a circular track as you aren't actually going anywhere. Archery is another example. The point is that each of these inventions require skill to operate. One doesn't just pick up a weapon, or start up a car the first time and instantly become an expert. The joy is in developing and obtaining, and exercising the skill. People just find pleasure in being able to do things. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69639 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69639 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:26:41 -0600 Gotta admit, golf has no pull for me. I've played, twice, and realized it was going to take too much time I didn't want to slice out from other things to get competent at it. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69637 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69637 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:14:21 -0600 It's much more difficult to shoot as a civilian up here in the Frozen White North, so the only shooting I've done was in uniform. But for me, I loved it in the same way I love taking a basketball out on the driveway and shooting freethrows until I can go ten-for-ten, or jumpers from the corner. I've done a bit of archery, a bit of trap (again, not in Canada). I'm one of those people who will do drills on a billiard table or with a dart-board for fun. When I'm camping, I've even thrown knives for accuracy. Hell, my son and I try to make smiley-faces on the side of the house with snowballs. If you don't inherently understand that drive for accuracy, perfection, control in what you can project, I'm not sure it can be explained to you. Oh, do you golf? Have you ever stood in the same spot, like on a driving range, and tried to hit a specific target again and again? Or putted from a fixed place to see how many you could drain? Same attraction for me. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69636 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69636 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:07:20 -0600 I'm just a dilettante in this, but I found shooting captivating because of the instant-feedback factor. Putting holes in inanimate objects is very satisfying, and making minute adjustments in technique has big payoffs. And I'm competitive, so it was all very inspirational. :D http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69635 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69635 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:57:51 -0600 I've come closer to killing humans and animals in my car. Oh...and I like the power aspect of being able to control a controlled explosion sending a projectile down range at 2638ft/sec. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69634 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/why_guns_why_sh.html#comment-69634 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:55:58 -0600