When Ideology Meets Reality or What It Takes To Lead A Nation

[Kat]

Well off the track of discussing border security, but shortly to return, in the post on voting for McCain to keep from being subjugated by the Obamanation (pun intended), Kevin of the Paulians appears and expresses his very deep distrust of Senator McCain and his refusal to support him. The Princess of Crabbiness, defending her man (she's partial to sailors and other see going fellows), jumps in and notes Obama's stance on Palestine and Israel. In short, Obama thinks the Israelis are meanies and the Palestinians have been suffering unbearably so he will withdraw any restrictions on aid that the Bush Administration has put in place.

Kevin whips out his Paulian Constitutionalism and states that Israel has a right to exist, but should defend itself without our assistance, being a big boy state and all. Also, that we should not be paying any money to the Palestinians for anything. An idea that I could nearly agree on. The Palestinians, of course.

[continued in flash traffic]

Kevin of the Paulians then proceeds to ask where in the constitution does it say that the government has any right to take our money and pay it to other nations? Even for defense and alliances, I might add.

Of course, I believe that falls under Article I, the president's powers to negotiate treaties (which can and have historically included money) and Article II wherein the house raises the funds through taxes and authorizes them for expenses such as "defense" and "general welfare".

Kevin of the Paulians reaches back into ye old archives and proceeds to quote various founders regarding the purpose of the constitution, the establishment of "enumerated powers" limiting the powers of the government and various gentlemen insisting that they could not raise taxes and spend it on things like French refugees as their constituency would not approve of having their money spent that way.

My answer, in short, was to point out that the French refugees were likely monarchists and, regardless of the monarchy's assistance in our own revolution, we were highly unlikely to give aid to a group of people who most resembled our late oppressors. That, and tax money was fairly limited, needing much to be spent on a navy that we could barely decide to raise along with, gasp and shockingly, "tribute" to the Barbary Pirates to protect our commerce.

I believe that most people don't know that we actually did conclude a number of treaties and paid multiple tribute payments to these Barbary states before, during and after the Marines marched on Tripoli. It was a matter of expediency. In fact, what occured was entirely dependent on whether the Barbary state held up its end of the bargain (which it rarely did and we paid several times up to a million dollars - what is that in modern money?).

Even Jefferson and Madison, two whom Paul quotes, took part in, negotiated, authorized and paid these payments. It was only at those times that they were finally tired of it and felt they had not choice that Madison, many years later, presided over our Trip to Tripoli, the dethroning of a king and the installation of another only a few short months after having concluded a rather hefty treaty and tribute to Algiers.

Here is where ideology meets reality meets history meets modern day diplomacy and security. For all the talk about ideology and certain principles, when these men whom we revere were tasked with leading this country and defending it, the reality of nationhood set in and tempered ideology to action that turned out to be pragmatic. Several countries received treaties and money and others, not so complacent, got the gun boats and the Marines.

Ideology may be the guide of leaders and movements, but to actually lead requires some form of pragmatism. Leaders who lead through ideology alone are bound to fail spectacularly or even lead their nation to ruin. I'd invoke Hitler here, but I'd hate to have Godwin hammered on me.

Democracy, as our founders discovered, was exactly about having ideas and principles, but compromising enough to form a nation, govern it and defend it.

Frankly, I think Kevin is lucky that his candidate didn't get the nomination. He can continue to believe in his purity and his idealism without ever having it tested nor defending its failures. I'm sure Kevin doesn't see it that way so I'll leave that with a "good luck next election".

Amongst all the issues that I have with the Obamanation, maybe that is the one underlying them all. With all his ideology riding on the "hope" band wagon that there is a place for reasonable discussion even with unreasonable men, what will Obama do when he's faced with the multitudes of real problems that face the leader of a nation? What happens when Chavez decides to shut down the oil or Iran goes Nuclear or North Korea ejects the inspectors for the thirtieth time? NATO refuses to give more forces to Afghanistan? China decides to place members of its military in Sudan and Ethiopia among the many oil and natural gas sites holds necessary to its survival?

Or, terrorists blow up the major Al Aqsa oil refinery in Saudi Arabia? Or Pakistan falls to the Islamists? Or Iranians kidnap American soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan? Or another massive attack occurs on these United States?

There are many things that Obamanation and hope are good for, but hope does not heat the home or buy the gas for delivery of food and maintaining our defense forces. I think that this is the weakest part of the Obamanation platform and the most dangerous.

Obama simply does not have the experience nor any real idea beyond ideology to do so. Obama may be able to speak like a Baptist Minister at a revival, but he does not have what it takes to lead a nation.

12 Comments

Kevin of the Paulians then proceeds to ask where in the constitution does it say that the government has any right to take our money and pay it to other nations? Even for defense and alliances, I might add. Article I, Section 8, clause 18. The "necessary and proper" clause, more cynically known as the "elastic clause," which is often forgotten by strict-constructionists. It's been abused far beyond reason over the last seventy-five years, but things like foreign aid and tribute are exactly what the elastic clause was meant for. If a treaty calls for payment of monies to a foreign government, then Congress can appropriate money for that purpose under the elastic clause. I also notice that under the strict wording of Article II, Section 2, there are no limits placed on the President's treaty-making powers. It appears that a treaty can say anything, and as long as the President signs and the Senate approves, that treaty becomes enforceable law. One can assume that no treaty can violate the Constitution itself by, say, signing away our civil rights -- and I believe the Supreme Court has declared several treaties unconstitutional for just such reasons -- but still that's an interpretation placed on the Constitution, not the literal wording itself. On to your main point, Kat: Amongst all the issues that I have with the Obamanation, maybe that is the one underlying them all. With all his ideology riding on the "hope" band wagon that there is a place for reasonable discussion even with unreasonable men, what will Obama do when he's faced with the multitudes of real problems that face the leader of a nation? I agree. I oppose Obama for several reasons, not least of which is that on domestic policy he's a flaming socialist, but this question is at least as serious and possibly even more so. Obama is a classic idealist. What will happen when that idealism has a head-on collision with reality? Some people adjust to reality by modulating their idealism. Others continue with the same idealistic attitude, hoping somehow that by "setting a good example" or some such rot, they'll miraculously convince reality to change to match their ideals. I've never known the second way to have much chance of success. I don't know which way Obama would follow, but I believe he'd take the second road, down which lies disaster.
 
So, wolfwalker, you see Obama as more Wilsonian than anything else? That's who your post brings to mind. A relatively minor nit to pick re: Godwin's Rule. It is a purely informal Usenet assumption that the first invoker of Godwin's Rule loses the argument, and has no bearing on the discussion in question. What Godwin's Rule actually states is that a Usenet (or internet, now) discussion goes on, the probability of a comparison to Hitler or Nazis approaches 1. Intelligent discussants understand that legitimate citations of the NSDAP are still valid. :) So invoke away! Actually, Hitler is an excellent cite during discussions about whether war heroes make better national leaders. Both Hitler and Mussolini were wounded in action and decorated for bravery during WW1. Both were undoubtedly "war heroes" as the term is commonly used today, but both turned out to be terrible national leaders. QED. I got a lot of "rolls eyes" reactions from folks back in '04 when I brought this up with respect to John Kerry. Ironically enough, it works just as well with respect to McCain. That is, being a fighter jock or decorated war hero is no guarantee that he'll be a good president.
 
Casey, Whatever your point, there is NO comparing Kerry and McCain. Kerry was not anything but a poseur, ever.
 
Actually, Casey, the person Obama most reminds me of is a certain Sister Edith Keeler. And there's a large part of me that fears the real consequences of letting him into the White House would be similar to the fictional alternate timeline from "City on the Edge of Forever."
 
Well, frankly, Mccain's military status doesn't do a thing for me beyond let's me know his history. KNowing some military types, I can honestly say that military background does not make one a good leader automatically, not even the acquisition of bars, leaves, eagles or stars. So, I can honestly say I am not attracted to his candidacy due to his military career or even his time as a POW, though it informs me somewhat of his character. In fact, I imagine that the stubborness that the conservatives attribute to his inability to move in their direction was very likely the stubborness that kept him sane and alive to arrive out of Hanoi Hilton. I might like that about the guy even if it means he might stubbornly hold on to ideas and directions that I disagree with. I think he's a fighter, if somewhat older, seasoned and, maybe, a little weary. Still..that 80 year old ex-marine didn't go down in the face of two robbers. mr. McCain ought to be able to stick it to one pansy revivalist preacher.
 
"mr. McCain ought to be able to stick it to one pansy "revivalist preacher." Yes, just like McCain stuck it to the US taxpayer as a member of the Keating 5. Or how McCain stuck it to the 1st Ammendment with McCain-Feingold. And of course, how he attempted to stick it to the whole of the US his amnesty program with McCain-Kennedy.... Never mind how he will stick it to 'bomb, bomb, bomb Iran' or sure show those danged buggers in the middle East, even if it takes 100 years or more.... No thanks.
 
...the person Obama most reminds me of is a certain Sister Edith Keeler. Better than who he reminds *me* of, more and more each day -- Jimmeh Cottuh. Same flaming idealism, same espousal of the ideas that brought us double-digit inflation, same attitude toward the Near East/Middle East. Let's stick him in a rowboat and launch a cottontail at him to see how he reacts...
 
Good post with excellent historial examples. I've quoted you and linked to you here.
 
My Darling Chief, I came to the exact same conclusion on the Obama/Carter thing in the other post. Try this one: Suck-a-bee as a character in Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale". When he starts in on changing the Constitution to comply with the Bible......my blood runs cold. Kat - While you are correct that I am extremely partial to Sailors, that is not how McCain won my heart. It is not his military background or his time as a POW. I take from those just what you take. Military experience does not make you a leader, but joining the military does in most instances denote a love of country and a willingness to accept responsibility. In McCain's case in particular, I have not heard one "off" note from those who actually served with him. So, in my mind, McCain is a proven leader of men in the Princess of Crabbiness' favorite flavor...excuse me, branch of the military. All that is well and good. If faced with two equally qualilfied candidates, I would lean toward the one with military experience. But that is not what we have here. We have three Seantors and an extra from "Deliverence". Of the three Senators, McCain is head and shoulders above Clinton and Obama for experience. Still, one might overlook experience if one wanted the "change" the Democrats are screaming for. So, once again we are back to triage. What is your single most important issue? Big picture - national security and the threat of radical Islamic terrorists. When I look at the candidates for President I see quite clearly that there is only one who can deliver on my number one issue. McCain is the one person in this election cycle who has the back of the favorite Naval Consort as he paddles around the NAG. It's as simple as that. Washington insider/outsider. Reagan republican/Rockefeller republican. Liberal/Conservative. Young/old. None of that matters. You can work out every issue under the sun, immigration, judicial nominees, 2nd amendment issues, the economy, civil rights, our standing in the world......everything......as long as the CINC keeps us in one piece. As long as the POTUS provides for the common defense. You might want Duncan Hunter or Mitt Romney or a resurrected Ronald Reagan or maybe even the real JFK. But you have to let go of that and look at this cold hard reality. Clinton Obama McCain McCain is the only one who can deliver what you really need.
 
Maggie, that well may be true, but does that invalidate my original thesis? While one may certainly posit Kerry as a "poseur," does that change the critic with respect to McCain? I can empathize with Kevin to a point; at which point I feel compelled to point out that McCain's "100 year" comment relates back to America's current commitments, including a 60 years (plus!) establishment in Korea, Great Britain, Germany, and Japan. Does anyone here want to claim that the countries mentioned above are in any way repressive or non-democratic? Perhaps fifty years from now Iraq will stand in the same circle... Before one dismisses this proposal, let me remind the reader that (at this point) sixty years ago Germany and Japan were reactionary totalitarian dictatorships, while Korea spent three decades after the Korean War developing her (him?)-self into a free and democratic society. wolfie: I would hope to disagree. I don't think Obama is that dumb, although it is quite possible I am wrong. ;) Certainly FDR gained the presidency with nearly as weak a record (Assistant Secretary to the Navy, and Lieutenant Governor of New York). Perhaps he will gain wisdom. I have to disagree with BillT that Obama is the next "Jimmeh;" that honor should be directed to Mike Huckabee. To be honest, my (nearly) worst nightmare is that McCain names Huckabee as his running mate. That combination would most likely force me to vote Democratic this November...
 
the Huckster is only being booted around is to placate the "true conservatives". I'm looking for him to choose someone with a little less baggage that will make McCain look conservative. maybe even Giuliani to grab up some of the center folks. or, what would be super cool, is if he reached out for a real conservative woman like the governor of Alaska. Not super well known, but has a solid record and could compete with the whole "breaking the gender and/or race" ceiling. She would be good at pulling the conservatives in because she would strengthen his anti-earmarks, small government position
 
McCain choosing Huckabee as a running mate would have me checking flight times on Aer Lingus in preparation for my next career move.....shepherdess. I can not even comtemplate such a horrifying turn of events. Therefore, I will deal with it as I do when such problems arise and tell you "No, that won't happen." and just push forward. LOL It's worked for the last 46 years, I see no reason to stop now. I would prefer McCain pick Romney. I like Guiliani well enough but I don't see which voters Rudi gets McCain that he can't get for himself. Kat - I am a political junkie and even I don't know who the governor of Alaska is.....