We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2010 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:30:27 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2012 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification First - you really need to click this link and read Chuck's post that Fuzzybear linked to in the H&I. If ya do, this post will make more sense. [Enters the auld, broken-down soldier] Ruck up, Chuck. You're channeling any Post Commander, Army of the Plains. You're channeling LTC Henry Leavenworth. You're channeling Captain Eisenhower, BG MacArthur, Colonel Marshall. You're channeling the Lieutenant and his detail that were all that was left of the Continental Line. Guarding the stores at West Point. I was 11 when my Dad went to Vietnam. I was the son of a career soldier throughout... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:30:42 -0600 This was some fine writing and thinking... And I love the picture of the soldier at the top. Now THAT is one tough-looking American, init? Heh! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69719 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69719 Thu, 14 Feb 2008 02:02:58 -0600 From the day I was born to a Soldier, they have NEVER ceased to amaze me. I suspect that tradition will always endure. EXCELLENT POST! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69611 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69611 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:14:36 -0600 From the day I was born to a Soldier, they have NEVER ceased to amaze me. I suspect that tradition will always endure. EXCELLENT POST! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69610 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69610 Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:13:47 -0600 #4, Admiral Gallery wrote in his book about the capture of U-505, after describing his encounter with a captured German submariner, that "Good men will fight well for a bad cause." http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69603 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69603 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 23:14:17 -0600 Great post. Chuck's was also a great post. His showed the frustration we feel, your shows us how we deal with it. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69601 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69601 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:00:38 -0600 John, relative to your question about a comparrison and contrast to '69, I have conflicting thoughts myself. The draft was a fiasco. A male would be deferred from the draft if he was married. Children were not required. This would be, I believe, the same time you would watch the whole quality of family life / marriage decline. Guys were getting married for the wrong reasons. In many of the families, the issue was not sex, but more about keeping the guys out of the military. This was one of those "over there issues." Stop and think, if you obeyed the law, the Military and Veterans were screwed by the citizenry and even by the Gov't who ordered us to war." Your fight for VA Benefits would not be measured in years, but decades. Let's fast forward the clock to 9/11/2001. We must never forget this was the most pivotal point in our Nation's history. This would be even more important than Pearl Harbor. This was the first time CONUS was attacked by a foreign power. The amazing thing is the whole Military/Veterans community came together for the good of the Nation. Does this mean we all agree? NO! We can work together to build the Nation. The whole Nation needs to understand the ABSOLUTE NEED of the Nation for the Military. This is not just a suggestion, it is a "REQUIREMENT' from the U.S. Constitution. We need to build a Military. The WHOLE CITIZENRY of this Nation needs to find ways to make sacrifice for the National good. It does not need to be big things. It can be the accumulation of little things that could make a HUGE difference. As I look at this coming election, there is no body who stands out as a great leader, from either party. Grumpy http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69599 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69599 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:18:58 -0600 Heh. So, #4, you have *me* channeling Fehrenbach. Good company. I can live with that. Andrea - next Milblog Conference is going to be in conjunction with the next Blogworld Expo, in Vegas, in September. I'll be down your way in March, on business. Where are the good restaurants these days, out near OCF and Alafaya Trail? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69597 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69597 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:46:33 -0600 In a truly liberal society, centurions have no place. For centurions, when they put on the soldier, do not retain the citizen. They are never citizens to begin with. There was and is no danger of military domination of the nation. The Constitution gave Congress the power of life or death over the military, and they have always accepted the fact. The danger has been the other way around – the liberal society, in its heart, wants not only domination of the military, but acquiescence of the military toward the liberal view of life. Domination and control society should have. The record of military rule, from the burnished and lazy Praetorians to the juntas of Latin America, to the attempted fiasco of the Legion Etrangere, are pages of history singularly foul in odor. But acquiescence society may not have, if it wants an army worth a damn. By the very nature of its mission, the military must maintain a hard and illiberal view of life and the world. Society's purpose is to live; the military's is to stand ready, if need be, to die. Soldiers are rarely fit to rule – but they must be fit to fight. The military is in essence a tool, to be used by its society. If its society is good, it may hope to be used honorably, even if badly. If its society is criminal, it may be, like the Wehrmacht, unleashed upon a helpless world. But when the Wehrmacht dashed against the world, it was brought to ruin, not by a throng of amateurs, but by well-motivated, well-generaled Allied troops, who had learned their military lessons. Some men, of kind intention, are always dubious because the generals of the Wehrmacht and the men of West Point and V.M.I. and Leavenworth read the same books, sometimes hold the same view of life. Why not? German plumbers, American plumbers, use the same manuals, and look into the same kind of water. Proud Legions, This Kind of War -- T. R. Fehrenbach]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69596 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69596 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:29:13 -0600 Well said. Would love to see this posted at every military site. And make it required reading to all high school boys and girls about to make their mark in the world. BTW -- when is the next Milblogger's Conference? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69595 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69595 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:22:56 -0600 John, I didn't express myself well. By "then line" I didn't mean "little difference." I was thinking more of a small step to get from one condition to the other. There's a big difference between solid ground and vertical cliff. What I was alluding to is that line between solid and cliff. There is no matter of degree; just a line between having your footing and free-fall. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69593 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69593 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:06:33 -0600 There's a huge difference, I think. The draft (lack thereof) is one of the components. The other is the relative lack of casualties between this war and Vietnam. Of course, on the exacerbating side is the pervasive coverage and a polarizing Presidency. Which is reflective of the polity, too. Though I think the media environment overstates the case. But for the people who live in those bubbles, the media is the message. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69592 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69592 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:56:11 -0600 John, I can't answer your question (of course). But it occurs to me that those who lived through that time are perhaps reacting to the foundations they see are being currently laid; it seems sometimes that there is only a very thin line between our current situation and a repeat of the past. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69591 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69591 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:52:19 -0600 Grumpy - do you really think it's as bad now as it was in '69? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69590 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69590 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:44:34 -0600 John, I came from the Viet Nam Era. In fact, I got my draft notice while in Military Basic Training. This was 40 years ago, this month. In many ways it was so different, but equally so, in many ways, this is just the same old rerun. The sad thing is this, there are men out there, who are still fighting the Viet Nam War in the back portions of their minds. But as I look at this link from Chuck Z. from FbL, I see many things. What are they and what do they mean? 1. He's human, even an honorable human. 2. He is also an honorable Citizen of The United States of America. 3. He is a Wounded Warrior, who also happens to be a leader and a good one. He leads by example. This is true leadership, not politicial leadership. 4. He is a "fresh air breather". This is in contrast to the "air recyclers" of this Nation. What is an "air recycler?" This is a person with a "cranial-rectal insertion problem", past tense. They have a perfect insertion to the point of a perfect seal. Therefore, suction is accomplished, resulting in air-recycling. The breath of life never leaves them. WARNING, extraction at this point can be very messy, full of unknown surprises. Grumpy http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69587 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69587 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:53:05 -0600 Nah I got your jist John (Just in case it seemed like I was throwing rocks, I'm in a mood. Shoot me later) That being said I noted at Commissar's place a comment he made about the VRWC having lost its mojo. I have to agree to a point. While we are a multifaceted unit (I can't really claim membership but I consider myself part anyway) I think we have lost focus to an extent as of late. getting mired down in to lots of little fire fights while leaving the larger ones behind. Each going off in their own direction, while an advantage is a disadvantage as well. Dunno. I probably shouldn't dwell on this much more as the whole thing just brings my Chi down more heh :P http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69586 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69586 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:51:40 -0600 "Heh. Only a 'little less'?" Depends on the blog. :) There seems to be plenty of self-righteousness to go around. I like this one because it's minimal. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69585 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69585 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:48:43 -0600 I agree, April. Though in my case, it didn't so much change my mind as educate me and connect me with people (military personnel) I would likely have never met otherwise, increasing what had previously been only a theoretical appreciation on my part. And as Chuck and John lament, the dearth of strong connections between military and civilian is part of the problem these days. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69584 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69584 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:43:26 -0600 Heh. Only a 'little less'? Oy! We've got work to do! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69583 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69583 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:42:21 -0600 You make an excellent point when you mention the benefit of milblogging. It's a tool that can change minds--it changed mine. I've found that there is more rational thought, and understanding of international history in most of the milblogs than in most of the lefty blogs I've seen, and a little less self-righteousness. The Toledo incident surprised me--I'm from Ohio and never thought of Toledo as a particularly liberal city. Certainly the city could cordon off the area and post signage explaining that it's just an exercise. But I guess that wasn't really their point, was it... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69582 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69582 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:35:08 -0600 I wasn't dissing Chuck's frustration - I was just adding context to it. The fact that (as I see it) it is less bad now than it was then, doesn't mean we should sit idly by, skipping stones over the river. Nor was I suggesting such. Just in case someone thought I was. The soldiers Marching Down the Avenues in the 20's and 30's were the veterans of the Great War, which was a war that all American's participated in, at home and overseas. It is also the era of the Bonus Army, when the Regulars marched on the ragged veterans in Washington. The same thing is true for the great parades of the 50's and 60's - where the soldiers of both Great Wars marched, and the people watching them were people who had also participated. And the guys from Korea got to sneak into those parades. Since 1945, we've been in the era of No Great Wars. A good thing. All of our stuff has happened mostly out of sight, except as filtered through the media. And we've not had 16 million men under arms. We've had around 5 million at the height of the cold war, down to about to what, about 1.1 million or so now, on active duty? While the country has gone from 170 million to 300 million? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69581 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69581 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:15:17 -0600 I'd like to say something constructive, and supportive, but I feel Chucks angst. I think a lot of us do. I've always felt we MilBloggers have a responsibility of sorts to try to show the other side of the Military. The non-violent, parents, spouses, families, the dedication, the hope they instill, and the good works they do. I also think the upcoming election is further compounding the beat down feeling. Darwin said “It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” The days of the 20's and 30's when it was something to be proud and march in the street to be a soldier are gone, i fear. But I think, somehow, we need to give the people a reason to see....a reason to believe. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69579 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69579 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:01:31 -0600 Good job, John. I was hoping for something like this when you found his post; you did not disappoint. *hug* http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69578 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/02/a_response_to_m.html#comment-69578 Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:52:59 -0600