We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:04:05 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification [Kat] I wrote Friday that I had an interesting conversation with my younger brother. He is quite on the other end of the political sphere from me. I won't elaborate beyond that, but it does tend towards some interesting "discussions". Thursday night we were watching a program about new tools and technology used or possible to be used in law enforcement. Most were interesting such as the mini-EMF pulse that could disable a fleeing car. Not a knew concept exactly, but it's being improved. Another tool was a letter recognition system that would scan license plates, recognize letters and numbers... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html Sun, 27 Jan 2008 04:28:38 -0600 That'll be the day. He thinks he knows everything now and frequently tells me so. My other brother is much more inclined towards libertarian/Republican. We tend to agree much more than we don't. I call him the "sane brother". LOL http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69093 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69093 Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:49:01 -0600 Kat, seems like the guy's heart is in the right place, he just needs to read more and think more. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69092 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69092 Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:38:01 -0600 P.s. I was, of course, speaking ironically and metaphorically and hyperbolically in what I wrote just above. I would not contemplate, nor encourage anyone else to contemplate, setting fire to someone who is running for the Presidency of the USA. Now, as to throwing a bucket of water upon her... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69091 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69091 Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:26:42 -0600 hah...okay, you got me. I am tired. My brother is actually all over the board in terms of politics accept to say he hates republicans because he thinks they are only out for the rich and corporations. In fact, when I used to make a goodly amount of income (for a single woman), he would sneer "republican" as an epitaph whenever we happened to discuss politics or anything else I refused to agree with him about. At the same time, he thinks the government is too intrusive, spends too much money and that criminals should have the book thrown at them while also believing that the government should help the poor, elderly and children more. He's like some weird socialist libertarian. LOL http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69090 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69090 Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:21:26 -0600 Kat, you wrote it in the very first line of the post, "other end of the political sphere..." 'sokay, it gave me an opportunity. Bill really is a bastard in the official legal sense, and in the moral, and slangish senses of the word. Bill Clinton is a spherical bastard, and Hillary is lighter than a duck. Burn her! There, I've said it! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69089 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69089 Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:12:22 -0600 You talk about the people being responsible for their actions, when they have the ability to reason or rationalize. Question, What do we do when people either can not or refuse to reason or rationalize? How do we determine the facts? Obviously we have processes for identifying people who are incapable of reasoning. We demand proof of mense rea and those who are incompetent are dealt with in another manner such as institutionalization. Those who "refuse" to use reason are, in fact, reasoning and rationalizing. they are responsible for their crimes and should be punished as such. I'm not sure where you were going with the "war on tyranny" though I think it would a post onto itself.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69088 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69088 Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:31:18 -0600 Yes. I will say that I told my brother, if this came to pass, what would happen would be an underground (criminal) enterprise for the detection and removal or destruction of these trackers. As I said to him, people will simply figure out a way to go around it as they will with any technological attempts at "security". We're most secure when society puts a laser beam eye on crime and firmly rejects it without pandering to excuses. I have taken to paying attention to judges who are using rather creative punishments for criminals. Such as the recent case where a judge sentenced a man to 24 hours on a park bench in the cold for stealing from a Salvation Army collection pot. Expressly for the purpose of letting him experience the "poor and homeless" that he stole from. Or the young women another judge sentenced to stand outside with placards proclaiming they were thieves. I think judges are getting tired of seeing the same people in front of them and recognize that a little public pillorying for non-violent crimes just might do the trick. Humiliation has a way of driving the point home. As far as sex offenders who have molested children, I think that deserves a life sentence since studies show a high percentage of re-offense. I don't think those people are ever "cured" and I think that the damage they do results in life time damage to the victims. I think the criminals should suffer the same as life time residence of our penal system. By the way, JTG, where did I write "sphere"? I must be tired because I don't see it. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69087 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69087 Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:22:19 -0600 s. (in honor of the last-character truncation bug here) . http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69078 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69078 Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:57:09 -0600 Matt, I recall reading an SF novel (one of Sterling's, maybe?) in which one of the characters captured somebody with one of those ankle bracelets, then smashed every bone in the guy's ankle and foot to get it off him, for plot purposes in the novel which I don't now remember. Some thieves have already cut off somebody's finger, out in Malaya, maybe, to steal his Mercedes which had a fingerprint-recognizing door lock. Oh, and how long does a ripped-out eyeball stay fresh enough to pass an iris scanner? We're sowing the wind with this stuff, folk http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69077 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69077 Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:52:43 -0600 t. . http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69076 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69076 Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:41:50 -0600 The foundations are already in place Since 2005, the state of Florida has required those convicted of sex crimes (against children 11 and younger) to wear a GPS bracelet for life. Some other US states have similar legislation. I don't know if there are any statistics to show that this has done anything to reduce re-offending. IMHO, a compulsory tracker might (emphasis on "might") be justifiable for a period of probation or court-ordered rehabilitation. But... if the only justification for GPS tracking is that these individuals "might" re-offend, then it is not justifiable. You might as well track everybody http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69075 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69075 Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:40:50 -0600 I've now RTWT, and concur on the corporal punishment. For something like simple larceny, restitution with interest and 30 licks on the courthouse steps at high noon should clean the slate. Putting people in jail is expensive and doesn't help anybody, except that it might keep the more crazy-dangerous folks whom we're not willing to execute, off of the streets. Oh, and if nobody'll go for that, I'll say that all domestic-violence laws should be replaced with the one Delaware had, within my living memory. Delaware was the last state to abolish the whipping post, and reserved it for wife-beaters. My settled opinion, after many years, is that a taste of one's own medicine is always the best punishmen http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69074 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69074 Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:37:06 -0600 Pretty good, Ma'am, but I have one quibble: How can a sphere have an end? One of Fritz Zwicky's favorite insults was to call someone a spherical bastard, as in "He's a bastard any way you look at him." I have, in the past, applied the term "spherical bastard" to Monica Lewinski's ex-boyfriend who is the "husband" of somebody who is trying to bully everyone into electing her President. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69072 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69072 Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:56:47 -0600 Kat, your reply to my comment at 3:39, you make some interesting points. But first, when I use the concepts of our forefathers, it is differnt in this way. Most people have this almost "velvet covered brick" concept. I see Our Constitution differently, it is more like a document, that does not change, but our understanding of it grows with time. You talk about the people being responsible for their actions, when they have the ability to reason or rationalize. Question, What do we do when people either can not or refuse to reason or rationalize? How do we determine the facts? Is this not what we are doing with our leaders? But as time goes on, this is an issue which we must face. Crime is not the only issue. It is one of many. GPS is not even contemplated to be brought into the same building as the table. An example, On this website "John, The Armorer" has done really neat thing. He took GWoT, drew a line through it and put in, "whatever." I really think it should be the Global War on Tyranny. Grumpy http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69069 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69069 Sun, 27 Jan 2008 18:51:38 -0600 Kat, your reply to my comment at 3:39, you make some interesting points. But first, when I use the concepts of our forefathers, it is differnt in this way. Most people have this almost "velvet covered brick" concept. I see Our Constitution differently, it is more like a document, that does not change, but our understanding of it grows with time. You talk about the people being responsible for their actions, when they have the ability to reason or rationalize. Question, What do we do when people either can not or refuse to reason or rationalize? How do we determine the facts? Is this not what we are doing with our leaders? But as time goes on, this is an issue which we must face. Crime is not the only issue. It is one of many. GPS is not even contemplated to be brought into the same building as the table. An example, On this website "John, The Armorer" has done really neat thing. He took GWoT, drew a line through it and put in, "whatever." I really think it should be the Global War on Tyranny. Grumpy http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69068 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69068 Sun, 27 Jan 2008 18:50:25 -0600 Well, our forefathers thought that hanging for stealing was perfectly acceptable. I don't necessarily subscribe to those ideas and recognize that society has grown "enlightened" to the causes, but may have become a little to reliant on blaming the causes instead of the people. I fully believe in responsibility belonging to individuals who allegedly have the ability to reason and rationalize. Do the Crime, do the time. I think that our tendency to make even criminals victims of something or someone other than themselves leads those contemplating criminal acts to rationalize away their responsibility. For instance, how frequently is the defense that someone has no other choice but to join a gang or commit a crime because of their location or social setting or some other supposed mitigating factor? We have reduced morality to the expediency of a moment. In fact, made many acts amoral in our quest for "compassion". Our forefathers had fairly definitive ideas on personal responsibility. I believe this was an imperative that kept social order in a fairly free wheeling society that had little constabulary. On that same vein, I don't see their world as "perfect" nor expect ours to be, but we have tried a multitude of convoluted programs from policing to rehabilitation that seems to have little effect in reducing the quantity of crimes or the percentage of citizens committing them. Instead, they appear to grow incrementally. I think there is a perfectly good case, both in dealing with crime on the social level as well as with punishment AND protecting liberties, for looking at those things that worked in each case for our founders. Of course, keeping in mind that our population is 300 times theirs and our urban populations well above that. It just seems clear when society looks askance at crime and the reduction of freedom, we neither get security or protect our liberty. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69064 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69064 Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:08:04 -0600 Kat, in a perfect world, I would have no problem with your thoughts. But, we don't live in a perfect world. Our forefathers, when they wrote of freedom, were they talking of limitless freedom or responsible freedom? When we are given a choice of right and wrong, our choice includes benefits and consequences. Please, don't forget we had the freedom to choose. If you have a chance to talk with a JAG, ask him about the "5th Ammendment and the Military Courts Martial." While you are talking with this JAG, you know the Military swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution even to the point of losing their own lives. Each individual Soldier, Sailor, Marine, Coast Guardmen and Airmen takes this same oath. Ask your JAG, how are the Military protected by that very same Constitution in a Courts Martial? I figure our politicians should be put under the same law as our Military. By the way, If our Congress write and pass a law, they should be the first ones to obey it, NO EXCEPTIONS AND NO EXCUSES, NONE! This is the mark of a Leader. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69063 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69063 Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:39:44 -0600 Who serves their *full* sentence anymore? Well, I noted the BoJ's statistics that half of the prison recidivism is in those who are most often still on probation or parole, there is the other half that does serve their full sentence or completes the conditions of their parole or probation and are never seen again in the criminal system (whether that's because they never re-offend or we never catch them again is a question). The 50% issue nearly convinces to restrict parole and probation to a much narrower group. But, that gets back to our pocket books. We would have to pay for their longer or more often imprisonment. What I don't think we have a good handle on for comparison is the cost out of our pocket for prisons v. the cost, both real and human, of crime. If we have any inkling, then I suggest that society has decided it is either something we can bear or, because we think it is the "other" persons that bear that cost, we are willing to take that chance. Redemption and rehabilitation becomes a victim of these equations, too. Meaning we stand a real chance of not giving that chance to others who ARE redeemable.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69061 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69061 Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:27:52 -0600 Actually, I'm against sex offender lists, too, unless, again it is a stipulation of parole or probation to let the monitor know where they are. I think that sexual assault and other crimes are pretty offensive and that these deserve longer sentences, if not life sentences for particular crimes and, most specifically, second offenses. I think their damage to society is enough to warrant such actions. I believe that "lists" are a way to achieve a round about continuous punishment that violates amendments as I set forth in this discussion. If the crime is so horrendous and the criminal unredeemable, then we should sentence in that way. I think the existence of government "lists" of any citizen has some terrible connotations. Why don't we just burn a scarlet "S" into their foreheads? If you read the Bureau of Justice's reports, almost half of all re-offenders are actually in the middle of some other criminal indictment, parole or probation. Which must be why people suggested the GPS tracking system. But, which is why I recommend longer sentences instead. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69060 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69060 Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:16:11 -0600 Monitoring those who are on probation/parole/community supervision (the euphemism for parole in WA state) is one thing - they are still serving their sentence, and the monitoring can, and should, IMO, be part of the condition of their 'release.' A good case can also be made for those criminals required to keep the state informed of their residence, place of work, etc, after release from incarceration, as part of their sentence, such as sex predators. This is especially true in states such as WA, which allow them to register as 'homeless.' In all other cases, NO F*CKING WAY. And I say that as someone who loathes criminals, advocates the return of corporal punishment (30 days in country might not bother the 'bangers, but I'd bet 100 lashes might), as well as "3 strikes and you're dead" (violent felonies only), and death sentences for forcible child rape. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69051 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69051 Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:27:42 -0600 This question revolves around those convicted, sentenced and, having served their entire sentence..." Who serves their *full* sentence anymore?]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69049 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/01/essential_liberties.html#comment-69049 Sun, 27 Jan 2008 07:52:57 -0600