Doncha just hate it when the pesky facts get in the way...

By The Armorer on January 15, 2008 | | Comments (12)

...i.e., that despite the biggest argument made against concealed carry laws is that the streets will run red with blood... that hasn't happened yet? Anywhere? Yet, those arguments are still made any time the subject comes up in the states where concealed carry is not a fact... and are still accepted by those who just can't abide the thought of a citizen under arms who isn't in a uniform or at least carrying a badge...

According to a Detroit Free Press story published Sunday, Michigan now has more than 155,000 residents (about one in 65) legally licensed to carry a loaded firearm. That’s a six-fold increase since the state’s concealed carry law took effect. Most of us remember how nanny-state supporters objected to the law, assuring us that giving people more freedom to exercise their Second Amendment rights would “obviously” produce a flood of violence. Hundreds more people, they predicted, would die in shootouts on highways, city streets and businesses.

Instead, the opposite occurred. As permits have gone up, shootings have gone down and so has violent crime. In fact, the FBI reported Tuesday that violent crime in Detroit fell a surprising 12 percent in the first sixth months of 2007. This came despite a terrible economy that caused one university criminologist to anticipate a crime increase.

You can read the rest here.

Here's a little thought exercise. We allow the Police to carry openly and concealed (and encourage them to do so) because... they are screened, trained in the rules of deadly force, and qualify with their weapons. Right? In a properly implemented concealed carry program... so are the citizens. There is one significant difference right off the top of my head - the rookie cop gets supervised for his first few months to a year, depending on jurisdictions. For the record, I don't have a permit, currently don't plan on getting one (though SWWBO is talking about it for herself) and don't feel the need to carry, because I have the luxury of living in a generally safe place, and no need or interest to go to those places where carrying might be wise, and can generally handle a physical encounter. Your mileage may vary, but I don't live in a Hobbesian world.

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12 Comments

 
By KCSteve on January 15, 2008 12:47 PM
So John, you're saying you never go to schools, or malls, or church? And that you'll have a good six month's warning of any impending 'unpleasantness'? Kansas law does not, to the best of my knowledge, have an 'emergency' provision in their CCW law so if think you might ever need it you'd best start work on getting it now. Then again, some people only put their seatbelt on when they're going to be in an accident, and pick up fire extinguishers on their way home on the day they'll have a fire.
 
By John of Argghhh! on January 15, 2008 1:25 PM
Actually, Steve, any more, I *don't* go to schools during schooldays, I *rarely* if ever, go to a mall, and I don't attend church. So, in a sense, I have that covered. I do have multiple fire extinguishers. In the kitchen, in the basement, on the deck, out in the barn, and, currently, one happens to be in the car, too. We have smoke alarms, CO sensors. I a seatbelt when driving the tractor, or scooting across the demesne on the Ranger. I wear a helmet while on a motorcycle, even though I don't have to on this side of the river. Because all the dangers thereby mitigated are *far* more likely to happen to me than getting shot at in a mall, school, or church. Does that mean I'm not aware of my surroundings? Nope. Does it mean I won't take action should I find myself in such a situation? Nope. But by your logic, Steve, if you aren't running around in body armor daily, you also aren't serious about the risks, either. As I said, I don't live in a Hobbesian world, despite the evening news penchant for portraying it that way, and the politicians who sometimes seem to want to blame it on those who *don't* live in a Hobbesian world - for causing it. And, the reality is... the vast majority of people go through their entire lives without hearing gunshots in close proximity, much less the whizz-thump of a bullet going by and hitting something. I also didn't make sure my son had a cell phone, so that I could *always* be in contact with him. The world we live in isn't as dangerous, for most of us, as we sometimes believe it to be. I've got good friends who carry. Some who carried whether or not the government was supportive of that activity. And I suspect they carry now on occasion, still without the benefit of a state-issued permit to do so. I choose not to. I don't criticize people who do carry. I support making it legal in all 50 states. But I choose not to. If circumstances change, then perhaps I will change my mind, too. But, for the nonce, I choose not to, because I choose to look at the world as I do. Gad, it should be enough that I'm supportive, now I *hafta* or I get snarked? 8^ )
 
By Heartless Libertarian on January 15, 2008 1:47 PM
So, are you implying that the CCW programs of Washington state (background check, no training or qualification required), along with Alaska and Vermont (no permit required), are not 'properly implemented?' BTW, a service member with a clean record can get a CWP in Yakima County the same business day, if you fill out the forms before lunch.
 
By John of Argghhh! on January 15, 2008 2:18 PM
Mostly, Dave, I was making the point that the police are just armed, trained citizens who happen to wear uniforms and badges, and who, in addition, are granted *offensive* authority (subject to constraints) that the average citizen is not generally granted. You *can* infer that I prefer a system that wants people to have basic grounding on the legal aspects of deadly force, and I don't mind if there is a requirement to show an ability to handle a weapon properly, and hit what you aim at. And there are ways to do that without making it onerously expensive, either, at least in terms of web-based training with a sitdown, supervised written exam process. A shooting proficiency test would be a trifle more time consuming and expensive, granted. As for military personnel - that's mostly a presumption on the background check, so in that wise, I don't see a problem with it. I don't know the current state of pistol training, nor the universality of deadly force training in the force these days - but if there was to be a deadly force and qualification requirement added, I wouldn't object to same day service for a service member coming in with qualification and training records. Everybody's prickly today!
 
By Justthisguy on January 15, 2008 4:00 PM
I have made my peace with the Ossifers of The Law, whether they know that or not. I don't carry in public, and am willing to put up with a certain amount of rudeness from said Ossifers, in exchange for their taking charge of a part of the public safety which I am unable, for whatever reason, to guard. I do try to be polite to them, even when I think that they are in the wrong. I'm pretty much alone in the world, (at least in this county) so it behooves me to stay on the good side of the forces of order, whether I like them or not. Now, at home, yes I do keep a revolver at the bedside
 
By J.M. Heinrichs on January 15, 2008 5:16 PM
Damned if you do, damned if you don't ... Cheers
 
By Murdoc on January 15, 2008 7:25 PM
Holy smokes, John. You can't win on this CCW thing, can you? Antis practically stone anyone who admits that gun owners might have a point, even if they don't carry themselves. Pros practically stone anyone who admits that they don't carry, even if they support the right to.
 
By John of Argghhh! on January 15, 2008 7:38 PM
Well, in truth Murdoc, if it's friendly fire, it's with an Airsoft...
 
By kat-missouri on January 15, 2008 7:52 PM
I don't even own a gun right now. And, I support all of the rights and then some. Frankly, I was jut reading Justice Story's commentaries on the constitution. His important commentary on the 2nd Amendment echoes my own sentiments on the subject. Then he goes on to add:
And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burthens, to be rid of all regulations. How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights.1
 
By Justthisguy on January 15, 2008 10:31 PM
Kat, as I've said many times, viva voce, to many people, the Founders got it right the first time. That is, volunteers only for foreign wars, and everybody MUST show up for militia drill, or he doesn't get to vote. I have no problem with wimmin in the militia, our militia being a purely defensive organization. Going across the sea to foreign lands to kick ass seems to be more of a boy-type thing.
 
By KCSteve on January 16, 2008 1:07 PM
John, Actually I have no problem with you not carrying, but it was too good a chance to remind other people that spend all their time in 'safe' areas that, well... no they don't. And also to point out that being prepared for an unlikely event isn't necessarily a bad thing. For young women especially the fact that it can take six months (or more) to get a permit indicates that it's not a bad idea for them to get one - even if they don't own a gun. The time it takes to legally acquire a gun is similar to the time it takes to realize that your ex doesn't agree with the decision to make him an 'ex'. The unfortunate fact is that there are a lot of guys who're not only too dumb to take a hint, they're dumb enough to think they can force things to go the way they want them to. A little equality via Mr. Samuel Colt helps keep things from getting uncivlized - or at least equally uncivilized. In truth, most days the ever-indulgent wife and I get up, go to work, and go straight home. Odds of anything 'interesting' happening (or even just plain interesting) are pretty darn low. When we go out and about on the weekends it's hard to say just where we'll wind up so we're more likely to dress up a bit.