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A Little Help Here?...

By Dusty (AKA Attila of Argghhh!) on December 18, 2007 | | Comments (49)

SInce this is a semi-intense gun blog of sorts, it should have occurred to me earlier to ask this of you, gentle reader...I'm in the market for something that goes "bang."

All the firearms I've ever owned have been of the long persuasion, everything from target rifle to skeet gun. Time for something different.

I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I'm interested in something that's not too big (Dirty Harry's .44 comes to mind) or too small. Something I can conceal, but also capable of fairly sure of convincing a target to lie down and stop whatever he/she's up to after being hit once (maybe twice). I also want it to work when I ask it to.

I have a soft spot for the .45 but I understand handgun technology has come a long way so I'm open to suggestions. Again:

1) Easy to carry/conceal;
2) Powerful;
3) Reliable.

Any thoughts are welcome. -Instapilot

UPDATE: Well, the quality and number of responses didn't surprise me. My thanks to everyone who offered suggestions (keep 'em coming if you like...I'll keep reading). Of course, the Maggie/AgPilot60 discussion about fleshy posteriors was, um, an interesting distraction, not the least for a quick shudder when I tried to visualize what exactly they were talking about, but I digress.
One other thing I have a question on is: how do you store your firearms at home? Just askin'.

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49 Comments

By lprgcfrank on December 17, 2007 8:44 PM
My personal favorite is the Kimber Ultra Carry II in .45. This 1911 is on my right hip as I type. 3" barrel - 7 shot magazine (has a collapsible follower). Versatile - Fits in a pocket with my Uncle Mike's pocket holster. I use the Pro-undercover IWB holster from Comp-Tac or I stick it in my Comp- Tac paddle holster for my commander sized Kimber... Don't leave home without it.....
 
By GunTrash on December 17, 2007 8:44 PM
You'll most likely get lots of opinions on this one. But I carry this Particular Piece, the Kel-Tec P11. The gun conceals well, rides comfortably along the beltline and isn't too bulky. True, a lot of folks poo-poo the 9mm but I think that's the FMJ round. When not target shooting I load it with Federal Hydra-Shoks. I've had it for almost 10 years and take to the range and put a few boxes through it every year and have never had a misfire unless I limp-wrist it or sumtin' like that. The gun functions flawlessly. That's my take on it. Your mileage may vary.
 
By Chad on December 17, 2007 9:06 PM
No two ways about it, if I had to recommend just one sidearm that fits your requests, I would say the H&K USP .45 Compact. 8+1 rounds, easy to conceal, shoots like a dream, reliable as all hell... The new H&K HK45 is supposed to be out now, I haven't seen one in the flesh though. It's supposed to bring the design changes seen in the P2000 and P3000 lines their .45 platform. I have a P2000 SK (too small for what you're asking for, I think), and would like to see the child of that line and the USPc .45. Any questions, etc, drop me a line! (No, I don't work for H&K. )
 
By Eric on December 17, 2007 9:28 PM
Colt Combat Commander .45ACP or one of its clones.
 
By TmjUtah on December 17, 2007 10:04 PM
Any of the alloy frame .45's in compact size will do. What's important is that the size you end up with doesn't prevent you from carrying it comfortably, 'cos if it ain't comfortable it'll end up the same place gas masks did on D-Day. I believe in "forty and above" but also believe that any gun makes it possible to win in a gunfight. The space pistols really are the way to go for a pure utility piece. I know people who carry KelTecs, Kahrs, Springer XDs, and more recently the new Ruger and the Smith M&P's everyday. IMO, Glocks make up for their lack of grace by being almost spooky reliable once they are broke in. There are single- and double-stack options available, as well as service and compact sizes. If you are comfortable with shooting a 1911 size pistol, the Glock 30 or even it's larger brother would work for concealment. The Glock weighs quite a bit less and is already pretty "melty" as far as snaggy parts and edges which a stock 1911 is most decidedly not. I was talking with Mrs. Tmj about getting a smaller, more concealable pistol, especially in the aftermath of the recent shootings in Colorado. I talked with her so much that I found myself calling her from the local gun shop as I filled out forms at which time she finally lit me up royally - "How about you wait until say AFTER you open your CHRISTMAS presents?"... Good luck to you, and I will check back with a range report after Christmas.
 
By AgPilot60 on December 17, 2007 11:53 PM
Oh boy! Did you ever ask a loaded question. Try plenty of different ones out. Kramer leather makes an excellent undershirt holster that conceals a 1911 as good as anything I've ever seen (just about perfect) and it is OK in summer too when you can't wear a vest. As you get older and should you have the arthritus brothers in your hands, the heavier the gun, the less recoil, and so the less pain. That is why I can't carry an alloy or polymer framed pistol, they are just too painful to shoot. The Kramer undershirt can be taken up at the top of the shoulders to raise the gun and a dart put in at the back or front for a snug fit to minimize butt flop and keep it more concealed. Nothing is perfect, but I like a Commander sized 1911 in the Kramer and a Glock 26 in a DeSantis Apache ankle holster for a backup. Everyone has different needs & wants, so again try out several different things (or just for fun use different things). Good luck, there's lots to choose from.
 
By Maggie on December 18, 2007 12:06 AM
Well, based on my vast experience..... LOL....I can't keep a straight face long enough to finish my wise ass comment.
 
By AgPilot60 on December 18, 2007 12:10 AM
After thought on the Kramer undershirt holster, a snap up shirt makes for superb fast draw and obviously it will not work with a T-shirt. With a button down shirt you don't get to practice much (too much trouble to sew the buttons back on, snerk). I've used the Kramer shirt for sometime and no one has ever seen it. Even when my son and I got to meet & shake hands with Oliver North with city police and security all around, no one's eyes ever went ever went to where our 1911s were. And yes, we were legal.
 
By AgPilot60 on December 18, 2007 12:15 AM
Maggie, was it the "butt flop" part that got to you,,,or wa it something else??? (snerk)
 
By AgPilot60 on December 18, 2007 12:19 AM
Maggie, I'll have you know my "butt" is too small to "flop"!!
 
By MR T's Haircut on December 18, 2007 1:52 AM
Colt 1991A1 (1911). Best damn gun ever made. Cannot be made obsolete because it is simply perfect. three safety's, easy to clean and break down. Damn good gun. Modern gun, look at the .40 Sig Sauer P239. Great Carry. My Wife traded up from her PT92 9mm for the .40
 
By Pogue on December 18, 2007 6:15 AM
Personally I carry a Colt Commander with Novak sights and some mods, but if you don't want to get a lot of gun smithing done Springfield Armory makes some nice stuff. If you're going to carry in nasty conditions the Springfield XD-45 is hard to beat. (It's my bad weather carry gun.)
 
By Ledger on December 18, 2007 6:22 AM
“Colt Combat Commander .45ACP or one of its clones.” –Eric Somebody mentioned Alloy. Try a Colt Light Weight Commander. The Mark IV series can be cocked, locked, loaded and carried safely (and "Merican" made). If you want something smaller try the Mustang. Both have about the same usable barrel length.
 
By John of Argghhh! on December 18, 2007 7:28 AM
Lookit the lurkers! I told ya this would bring 'em out, Dusty. I'm going to move this to the Dec 18 posts, just so's the morning readers get a chance at it.
 
By USCitizen on December 18, 2007 9:18 AM
Lots of good recommendations above. You can also browse current stock here: HandGuns at TractionControl for more ideas. Copy into Excel and filter for more search / viewing options.
 
By BloodSpite on December 18, 2007 9:47 AM
I'm a tad more finicky and more old fashion than most the other commenter's here from the looks of it. :) When i chose my carry pistol I went about it a tad different. I knew I didn't want a 9mm. Putting 3 rounds in to someone to get them to stop was not an option to me. A .45 has great knockdown, but you lose ammo carry capacity unless you have a spare clip. So I leaned toward either a .10mm or a .40 in caliber. Then i started checking price. A USP 10mm will run you close to $600 bucks. A Smith & Wesson Sigma .40 will run you $300. No Contest. I Chose the SIGMA because the polymer is lightweight, similar to the Glock 9which personally I can't stand. Never have liked Glocks.) and you get a Lifetime Warranty on the firearm itself via Smith & Wesson. For $300 bucks and $10 bucks per box for Ammo, I get 14 rounds per magazine, 960 FPS Muzzle Velocity, and a nice big hole in my tango if needed. It's also lighter than the .45, weight in at .690 grams, and in a conceal carry piece, that means comfort. Versus the standard 1911 .45 weight of 1,105 grams ( or almost 2.5 Lbs). For my money and recommendation, go with a .40 caliber, but try some different units. SIGMA is just my preference. I own two.
 
By Casey Tompkins on December 18, 2007 10:06 AM
GunTrash sez
a lot of folks poo-poo the 9mm
Yep, that's right. It's poo-poo! Ok, just kidding. :) I will point out that many police forces have moved away from the 9mm. My local town force, for example, now uses a .40 sidearm.
 
By Heartless Libertarian on December 18, 2007 10:12 AM
Bloodspite, I'd love to know where you found a USP in 10mm, since HK has never, to the best of my knowledge, made them in that chambering. It's been on my wish list for years (well, behind the Sig P220 and the now top of the list CZ-97B). Dusty-take all the suggestions for what they're worth, but most importantly, shop around, find something that fits your hand and that you can shoot well. Being able to put your rounds on target is far more important than raw power. This isn't artillery, bombs, or nukes-there's no such thing as 'close enough' unless you actually hit the target. I've got big hands-folks complain about the grip size of the M9, but in a proper two-handed grip, it's perfect for me. I carry a Sig P229 in .40. I had a Kahr K40 (steel frame, also available in polymer as the P40) but I sold it because the grip was just too small for me. Even the mighty 1911 is really too small for me. Also, once you've settled on a pistol and caliber, give some thought to ammo selection, especially in .45. I've heard several stories about 230 grain JHPs not expanding properly out of 3-3.5" barrels because they just don't get enough velocity. 185 gr is recommended. And buy a bunch of different types and test them all out to find which feeds the most reliably and shoots the most accurately from YOUR pistol. If you need your carry pistol, you absolutely need it to go bang when you pull the trigger, and to keep doing so. Malfunctions can have very bad consequences when the BG is in the same room as you.
   
By BloodSpite on December 18, 2007 11:19 AM
Here ya go Heartless! Price has went up since I did my research it seems. Some more data here. First modifications were chambered for 9-mm Para (USP 9), and 10-mm .40 Auto (USP 40) cartridges. Another sale here I first became interested in it when my unit worked with the FBI HRT. Several of the team swore by it. Getting your hands on one is difficult but doable if your willing to spend the money. You can also buy a kit from H&K that will convert the .40 in to a 10mm (by far cheaper in my opinion) but the rumors of using .40 ammo and 10mm ammo interchangeably are, well not rumors but risky and dangerous due to headspacing. If you don't want to spend that amount of money the S&W Model 1076 is a fair alternative, in my opinion.
 
By BloodSpite on December 18, 2007 11:20 AM
Apparently my comment got caught in the SPAM filter, if you want to retrieve it Oh Keeper of the Arsenal :)
   
By Firefyte on December 18, 2007 11:33 AM
Springfield XD .45 compact. Available stock with the 10 round mag or the extended 13 round mag. I also own a .40 and .357....the XD .45 is by far the best in all catagories.
 
By KCSteve on December 18, 2007 11:56 AM
As [b]Heartless[/b] noted, most important is what fits [b]your[/b] hands. I like my Springfield XD45 so much I got the XD9SC too. The 45 is the 5" Tactical model but it's surprising how well it conceals with an OWB Bianchi holster. Need to get an IWB so I don't have to worry about making sure it's covered but still... Oh yeah - 13 rds in the gun, 2 spare mags. I don't top off because I think shooting someone 40 times with a .45 is overkill. The XD9SC (9mm, Sub-Compact) is much easier to conceal with it's 3" barrel. Only 10 rds in the gun but I've got two 16-rd spare magazines. Once again, I feel that topping off the magazine isn't worth it. If they haven't gotten the message after 42 rounds of 9mm, round 43 is unlikely to make your point either.
 
By Barb on December 18, 2007 12:23 PM
The S&W Sigma in .40 cal is the Hubster's handgun, although neither of us carries (yet). It's rock solid, lightweight, and actually fits my hand well. Once I got used to the bigger boom (I have the 9mm model in the Sigma) I also found I am more accurate with it.
 
By Don Hickey on December 18, 2007 12:30 PM
Check page 37 of the Jan, '08 American Rifleman. Not an automatic (won't jam) and .45 Colt instead of .45 ACP. Would be very handy around the new Castle with the .410's too. Available in stainless so low maintenance. In case your copy of the Rifleman is different from mine it's the Taurus Judge. Merry Christmas & Happy New Year. Don
 
By Justthisguy on December 18, 2007 1:02 PM
I think I saw (at Uncle's, maybe) that somebody now makes metal frames for Glocks. You can get aluminum or stainless. They claim it improves the trigger feel, and that second shots are quicker and more accurate because of the extra weight. That should help with the hand-hurt, too.
 
By Maggie on December 18, 2007 2:05 PM
Maggie, I'll have you know my "butt" is too small to "flop"!! by AgPilot60 on December 18, 2007 12:19 AM
I'm not from Missouri.......but can I still ask you to show me?
 
By Justthisguy on December 18, 2007 5:06 PM
What is this "butt flop" of which some here speak? We're talking of pistols and revolvers, here, and from what I see that others have wrote, most of them speak of "muzzle flip." I defy Maggie to get a smart remark out of that! (dons GurlCooty-proof suit from Dexter's Lab.)
 
By Maggie on December 18, 2007 5:37 PM
What? You want to nuzzle me? I'm not really into the post cuddle......but I suppose if you're really good, I could deal.
 
By Justthisguy on December 18, 2007 6:56 PM
Maggie, Ma'am, I remain content to admire you from a great distance.
 
By J.M. Heinrichs on December 18, 2007 7:02 PM
Butt flop results in loose cheek weld. Cheers
 
By Justthisguy on December 18, 2007 7:04 PM
Wait, the thread drift here is like it used to be at A.S.A! To help the thread drift further, has anyone else, like myself, ever used a sharpy to draw smily-faces on the front of the bullets of .45ACP Ball cartridges? Hey, it was late at night, nothing better to do, etc.
 
By Justthisguy on December 18, 2007 7:13 PM
Cap'n, only if one is shooting, or otherwise transmitting, from one's arse.
 
By Timothy H. Willis on December 18, 2007 7:57 PM
Hmmm, looks like most posters are 1911 fen (fen=plural of fan). Cool... now if only the mil would return to it. My favorite, pet, pistol is my Essex 1911-A1 that I built and tweaked for a couple of decades. Small carry piece? Star's Firestar in .40 S&W. Try one out and see if it feels right. And if you'd trust a .32 ACP Llama makes one that's quite nice. I have an old one - probably made in the 1950's - that shoots more accurately than the majority of pistols I've had. Actually, for s***s 'n grins tried out at a silhouette shoot (after I did my shoot for the prize with my Ruger .30 Carbine Blackhawk) and if the little 7.65mm bullet had had enough energy I'd have scored better with it; not enough oomph to knock down the turkeys or rams. Actually managed to hit one fiverow of the rams, too. Another pet, but I'd not be as comfortable about knockdown ability... though hitting a bad guy in the eye at combat range (with a Glaser) would do the trick. All in all, give me a .40 or 10mm or a .45 for confidence.
 
By Timothy H. Willis on December 18, 2007 7:58 PM
Hmmm, looks like most posters are 1911 fen (fen=plural of fan). Cool... now if only the mil would return to it. My favorite, pet, pistol is my Essex 1911-A1 that I built and tweaked for a couple of decades. Small carry piece? Star's Firestar in .40 S&W. Try one out and see if it feels right. And if you'd trust a .32 ACP Llama makes one that's quite nice. I have an old one - probably made in the 1950's - that shoots more accurately than the majority of pistols I've had. Actually, for s***s 'n grins tried out at a silhouette shoot (after I did my shoot for the prize with my Ruger .30 Carbine Blackhawk) and if the little 7.65mm bullet had had enough energy I'd have scored better with it; not enough oomph to knock down the turkeys or rams. Actually managed to hit one fiverow of the rams, too. Another pet, but I'd not be as comfortable about knockdown ability... though hitting a bad guy in the eye at combat range (with a Glaser) would do the trick. All in all, give me a .40 or 10mm or a .45 for confidence.
 
By Justthisguy on December 18, 2007 8:41 PM
Timothy, you cain't get nuthin from Star anymore, since the Spanish govt. shut them down a while back and destroyed all their stock. (according to Wikipedia.) Sucks, really, 'cause I lurve my Star PD, but it was just about shot out when I bought it and really needs a complete new set of springs and a recoil buffer. Owhell, I have the revolver by the bed for emergencies. The Star does have a really *nice* trigger, like the proverbial breaking of the glass rod. Too nice for a defense gun, maybe.
 
By Curtis on December 18, 2007 9:21 PM
1911s are straight up money! Reliable as all get out, tough as nails. I bought a Rock Island armory GI 1911 for my first weapon last year.(Philipino company) That cheap chunk of steel cost me under four hundred bucks, and has so far burned through several thousand rounds with no failures that weren't attributed to bad magazines. (Novak mags don't like me, the feed lips crack.) The main problem with 45 ACP is that it is kind of expensive. But I'm pretty sure you're the kind of guy who rolls his own cartridges. If you're serious about really getting into pistols, I'd recommend you first buy a .22 pistol and get good and proficient. Pistols are almost nothing like rifles. After that, I'd recommend you pick a main caliber. If you're looking for concealed carry, snubnose revolvers are about as reliable as you are going to get. No magazines to mess up, not much in the way of barrel to get damaged, the ruger I was looking at yesterday was built like a brick outhouse. 357 magnum snubnoses are especially durable, seeing as how they have to be in order to handle that kind of pressure. A 357 spitting 38 special shouldn't be to rough on the hands for long practice sessions. _________________________________________ Heres my personal opinion on most pistol calibers 17HMR. Good varmint rifle round, bad pistol round 22LR Dirt Cheap, fun, good for practice and skillbuilding. If you can't find 22, you ain't looking. .25 ACP, absolutely useless, wouldn't fool with it. .32 ACP garbage, wouldn't fool with it. 38 special. Good for practice in a 357, wouldn't buy a gun just rated for 38 though. .38ACP. The absolute minimum I'd request for self defense. 10MM, supplanted by the 40 cal, I'd skip it. 9MM Absolute standard in Self defense. Cheap to shoot. 40S&W Slightly better than 9mm in my book, a good option if you don't like 9mm or 45 45ACP Old reliable, a little too powerful for some people with bad hands or small statures. 45 GAP. new round by Glock, supposed to have as much punch as a 45 ACP, in a shorter cartridge. Pricy, and limited in availability. I'd only buy it if I just loved a pistol in the caliber, and I was a reloader. 357SIG. Automatic cartridge with properties similiar to 357 magnum. Limited in numbers, same set of circumstances as 45GAP 357 magnum. Heavy revolver cartridge. Old favorite of mine. Priced kind of steep. FN57, really wierd French round. supposed to be a nifty little cartridge, but hard to find, pricy, and my hands just don't fit the pistol that shoots it. 44 magnum and 45 Colt: Now your wandering outside of human self defense. These calibers and above are what I would recommend for selfdefense against large predators (IE large wolves, mountain lions, and small to medium bears with bad attitudes, PCP junkies, and baddies with body armor.) ______________________________________________ If you are absolutely lost, and you just don't know what you want, I'd recommend looking at everything, handling everything, and shooting everything you can get your paws on. Handguns are a lot like women, you're always looking for that one that just feels right. you might be surprised at exactly which one it is.
 
By emdfl on December 18, 2007 9:34 PM
I would suggest one of Col. Cooper's older favorites, the Star PD, except that I'm sure there are better guns out there now. In fact I probably own a few; my everyday carry is the KelTec P3AT but I keep two of the Stars in the bureau draw for formal occasions. If you feel the need for a Colt, drop me an email; I have a Series 80 ss Officer's model that I don't need.
 
By Fred on December 18, 2007 10:47 PM
I have the usual assortment of Colt and Springfield 1911s and I would probably choose my alloy framed Colt Officer's model if I thought I needed a carry gun. That said, I think you ought to consider a five shot concealed hammer double action only revolver. A good example of that is the Airweight which isn't made anymore but, there are revolvers like it. The rational is that the revolver is ready to go as soon as it's in your hand. With a 1911 you have to decide if you are going to carry it with a round in the chamber and the safety on or with an empty chamber. Either way there is something to do before you are ready to shoot; Either find the safety or rack the slide. The People Who Know Better Than Me suggest mode two, empty chamber and work the slide. The rational is that under stress major muscle moves like working a slide are easier than fine motor moves like taking off a safety.
 
By Justthisguy on December 18, 2007 11:10 PM
Fred, my Sweetie carries a S&W 442 pursuant to her Ga. permit. It fits her hand and she seems to be a good natural shot with it, which is good because I can't get her to go out and exercise with it. I did buy her some ammo with the most revolting wound ballistics. (Gold Dots) If I can unscrew some money from my (is it real or notional) inheritance I intend to buy her, and me, LaserGrips. They seem to make up, a bit, for lack of exercise with the piece.
 
By AgPilot60 on December 19, 2007 1:57 AM
OK Maggie, from a far safe (for me) distance pictualize this; "the butt of a handgun grip",,,got that part? If the undershirt holster is loose fitting the "butt of the gun" will 'flop' causing it to not be near so concealed. I promise, my fleshy posterior you do not want to see, it would make an innocent woman scream & faint. If you must insist, understand that I will not drive over 60 miles to show it.
 
By Maggie on December 19, 2007 7:28 AM
my fleshy posterior you do not want to see, it would make an innocent woman scream & faint
WK - Where is he finding an innocent woman?
 
By John of Argghhh! on December 19, 2007 8:30 AM
Yeah, AgPilot60 is new 'round here...
 
By Fred on December 19, 2007 9:31 AM
Justthisguy, The S&W 442 (and 642) are the kind of guns I had in mind.
 
By FbL on December 19, 2007 12:06 PM
WK - Where is he finding an innocent woman? Did I hear someone call for me? :D *blinking*
 
By J.M. Heinrichs on December 19, 2007 2:00 PM
What Dusty REALLY NEEDS is a Warthog Cheers
 
By AgPilot60 on December 20, 2007 3:35 AM
Dusty, My descriptive terms could have been better. I'll blame it on 39 years of breathing organic phosphate fumes and pulling hard G's every 20 seconds. I just knew everyone would understand what I meant by "butt flop" (snark). Snugly fit, the Kramer undershirt holster provides great concealment for a 1911. Look on Kramer's web site for it. With a little practice a 1911 can be on target almost as fast as Marshall Dillon at high noon. Maggie, Fbl "blinking", answered the call for an innocent woman. On the campus of Texas Tech there is a statue of Will Rodgers on his horse. The statue is probably way older than I am. It is said that if an innocent woman ever walks by the statue Will Rodgers will get off of his horse. There have been rumors and some evidence that Will has been off of his horse, no one for sure has ever seen it happen, but I feel sure that there have been some innocent women walk by or there wouldn't be any evidence. I'm pretty sure I saw him get off one time, but I had been imbibing pretty hard at the time so I could have been mistaken. I've had a couple of young nurses gasp and almost feint when they saw the tats on my chest so I had a feeling they were innocent.
 
By Dennydog on December 20, 2007 1:43 PM
J.M. Heinrichs nails it. Warthog. I started carrying a Colt Combat Commander in 1976; absolutely wonderful piece. Then my daughter got onto the police force and needed a 'brand' carry gun. It's been on temporary loan these past five years.(sniff) I will not buy a modern Colt. Coltalloy (safties, slide stops, etc) BREAKS. The ParaOrdnance Warthog is sweet. 10 rounds of .45, double stacked. 3" barrel, the thing nearly hides in one hand. Surprisingly mild to shoot. I'll buy one as soon as I can; in the meantime I make do with one of my full size (vintage) Colts or the 7.63 Tokarev.
 
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