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Valour-IT: A Message to Our Lefty Blogging Friends

UPDATE: Liberals Step Up!

Though very pro-military by definition, Valour-IT prides itself in being non-partisan at a time when the military is being pulled in partisan directions. If you think "we shouldn't be in Iraq or Afghanistan, it's Bush's fault they're wounded, and besides, the government should be taking care of the wounded (that's what taxes are for)," we won't argue with you. We might even cheer that third point.

We simply have a question: What are you going to do about it? They are wounded today, and nothing we do is going to change that reality. But we can support them as they make the first step in recovery, by helping them reclaim their connection to the rest of us, by giving them a laptop.

Sure, the government should be doing it and it's important to take the issue to Congress. But that takes years, and we're talking about someone in a hospital bed today. Hell, it took a year for the DoD to catch up with Valour-IT and realize their CAP program should be providing the voice software instead of us--which they now do (we provide the laptop to the wounded warfighter).

Now, Michelle Malkin has accused liberal bloggers of not truly caring about the troops, and she's put her money where her mouth is. She's already given a donation, but for every liberal blog that signs up with and blogs in support of Valour-IT, she's going to donate an extra $50 (up to 10 blogs).

She's now pointing out that she hasn't had to pony up a dime on this challenge. Prove her wrong, fellow bloggers. Not only do you get to donate your time/money to a great (tax-deductible) cause and support the troops in an immediate and direct manner, but you can "put MM in her place," too. ;)

--FbL

[Update: I am compelled to note that the closest thing to a resident lefty here at the Castle is Alan of GenX@40 - who has given several generous donations over the years, and that in our first year, at least, we had several stealth donations from second tier lefty bloggers - who still wish to remain nameless. One of them is still a well-known lefty blogger, who still wishes to remain anonymous - I checked. Which, sadly, is a reflection on the state of how the puritans of either side treat their own (I know, I work with a Dem politician, believe me, I know the perils of apostasy) who openly stray from the orthodoxy. Michelle can contribute another $50 if she'd like (but it will have to be on the basis of my word - and I'd like her to give it to the AF Team) - the lefty blogger did their donation via my good offices - which means they won't get to take the tax deduction, either. BTW - if Michelle gives another $50, that's only *half* the donation we got from the lefty blogger. -the Armorer.

FbL sez: Well said, John. Our resident lefties were definitely on my mind when I wrote that, and I know they have donated to Valour-IT in the past. My intention was not to slight them in any way or particularly call on them for donations. Rather, my hope was to draw them out to actually blogging for Valour-IT. Good (sad) point about reasons for wishing to remain anonymous... I'll check, but I think the stipulation was that they blog Valour-IT.]

[Heh. Princess Crabby dropped in on Cliff and left a challenge - which Cliff responded to in comments here, which I will edit to bring into compliance with the Rulez regarding personal attacks. I've issued a counter-challenge to Cliff - I'll match his *donation* - he doesn't have to blog a thing - up to $500, and I won't take the tax deduction, making it revenue-neutral, which should please a progressive blogger... I would note, though, that Cliff points out at least one lefty blogger who has blogged Valour-IT, if not perhaps in the way we intended. And he did leave Princess Crabby's comment up, with the Army donate button. - the Armorer]

59 Comments

Gee John, Where's your nifty friend Cliff from OneUtah? He'd fit the bill. (I had to type *nifty* cause the Armorer won't let me say *asshat*)
 
Ooooh. Excellent point! You should drop on his site and challenge him!
 
Hey Guys! Thanks for thinking of me. I happen upon your trackback on [deleted - insert "Malkin's" -the Armorer] site. Only one of three so far, which is pretty pitiful frankly. Maybe thats because the [elided] doesn't give us any transparent way of knowing how many e-mails she is actually getting. She also conveniently forgot to provide us an e-mail address to send such an e-mail. Lastly, I couldn't find a way to register on her blog so I can post my pledge and bona fides as a comment. Lets be honest. For all you know, Michelle [elided] has received hundreds of e-mails from liberal bloggers. Frankly, the whole thing is nothing more than more Malkin shrill sh&t. She could easily provide a transparent forum to back up her bogus claims, but she won't because she can't let you self-anointed hurray heroes see the truth. Get me a login for her site, and get back to me. Send it to cdl'at'oneutah.org Thanks ladies.
 
Cliff, that was just rude, and sadly plays to stereotypes. You don't help your cause laying things like this around here. But then, I rather suspect you aren't really trying to help your cause, eh? Sigh. How about *I'll* match your donation. Up to $500. And I won't take the tax deduction, so it will be revenue-neutral.
 
Hey John, What say we each split $500 donations between VoteVets and Valour IT? If we can end this war, our troops will stop losing so many limbs. Deal?
 
*double sigh* Contact info for Malkin (the tab is right there at the top of her page). As to commenting, I had to do some digging. Apparently it's impossible to register to comment at this time (frustrating for me because that's the quickest way to get her attention about her challenge and I've never commented there). I know that she used to not allow comments at all because of the racist bile that was heaped on her.
 
Cliff - I'm not saying no, but I'm not saying yes - yet. I would ask you consider finding a cause less directly political than VoteVets if you can. PVIT isn't for or against the war, it's about the wounded. The war is a separate issue about which we can all argue 'til we're blue in the face... the wounded just want to get connected again - and the question of the war is moot in that aspect. Is there a similar organization (and it doesn't have to be military-themed) that you can offer up? I can see a point to a quid pro quo, I'm looking for something a little more politically neutral (leave aside the politics of those who support PVIT, focusing instead on the intent of PVIT). Just as pick something more neutral and I can ignore your politics on specific issues to unite on a common thread or theme.
 
One more thing about whether or not "liberals" are blogging Valour-IT... [again, the challenge was to BLOG it, not necessarily donate to it] If she's getting "hundreds" of emails about liberal bloggers touting Valour-IT, it's not hard to prove it. Just do some creative Googling and go find them. Please. I'm absolutely serious, because it would mean at least another $500 for Valour-IT (not to mention the people in the comments who are issuing their own financial challenges).
 
I am between assignments so giving is pretty much out of the question. However, in the spirit of the Little Drummer Boy of Christmas fame I have a song: The author of I Wanna Go Home, Karridine, has authorized me to give away 1,000 free copies of the song to our men and women in the military for personal use only. However, recipients of a free copy can let anybody listen to it if they want. Members of the military can put it on their i-pod, use it on their computer, or make one CD. You can find out how to get a free copy at 1,000 Free Copies. If you want a copy for review e-mail me. My e-mail address is on the sidebar.
 
How about: FAMILY SUPPORT CELL Family Support Cell Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) Steele Barracks PO Box 10500, Station Forces Edmonton, AB T5J 4J5 Monday-Friday 0800-1630 Phone: (780) 973-4011, Extension 3040/3102/3106 E-Mail: familysupport@strathconas.ca Cheers
 
John - are you challenging me, offering an idea to Cliff... what?
 
Pure hypocrisy John, "I would ask you consider finding a cause less directly political" When does being a citizen in a democracy relieve you of your responsibility as one?
“The hottest place in hell is reserved for those who in the a period of moral crises, maintain their neutrality” - Martin Luther King
Are you neutral one the war? Based upon your fine blog, I would say no. This blog is as politically right-wing as they come. Lets call a spade a spade, shall we?
 
Payment Details # Name: Clifford Lyon # Item: Soldiers' Angels Project Valour-IT - Army Team # Amount: 250.00 Dear Clifford, On behalf of Soldiers' Angels, I would like to thank you for your generous donation of 250.00. Your continued support is greatly appreciated for our Soldiers, Sailors, Airment, and Marines who are in harms way as they serve our country. The goal of Soldiers' Angels is to continually bring care and comfort to our Heroes in uniform who sacrifice so much for our freedom. Contributions such as yours are a critical part of our success. The above information should serve as a receipt in accordance with Internal Revenue Service regulations regarding charitable contributions, and should be kept with your income tax records. No goods or services were received for this donation. Thank you again for your wonderful support! With warmest regards, Patti Patton-Bader Founder Soldiers' Angels Soldiers' Angels, 1792 E. Washington Blvd, Pasadena, CA 91104 Soldiers' Angels is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) Organization Website: www.soldiersangels.org Voice Phone: 615-676-0239 Email: soldiersangels@gmail.com Tax Identification Number 20-0583415
 
We've had this discussion before, Cliff. We didn't agree then, we're not going to now. I didn't support invading. However, we broke it, we owe it in my mind to try fixing it. There is plenty of room for argument over what that means. Just as the Iraqis owe it to themselves to step up to the plate and do what has to be done to make it work. That's not hypocrisy. Just as it's not hypocritical to obey a law you didn't support when it was passed. That is in the nature of the social compact represented by the Constitution. Just as it's not hypocritical to try to change that law once passed. I'm all for leaving Iraq. You and I differ on the conditions for that departure. I'm nowhere near as right-wing as you infer. Trust me, I get savaged from the right for my apostasy and my working relationship with Representative Nancy Boyda, D-KS2. I don't think my request is unreasonable - name something where the purpose is not so overtly political, and I'll match your donation to that organization. And I'll match your donation to Soldier's Angels as well, right now.
Thank you for your donation! Payment Details Name: John Donovan Item: Soldiers' Angels Project Valour-IT - Army Team Amount: 250.00 Dear John, On behalf of Soldiers' Angels, I would like to thank you for your generous donation of 250.00. Your continued support is greatly appreciated for our Soldiers, Sailors, Airment, and Marines who are in harms way as they serve our country. The goal of Soldiers' Angels is to continually bring care and comfort to our Heroes in uniform who sacrifice so much for our freedom. Contributions such as yours are a critical part of our success. The above information should serve as a receipt in accordance with Internal Revenue Service regulations regarding charitable contributions, and should be kept with your income tax records. No goods or services were received for this donation. Thank you again for your wonderful support! With warmest regards, Patti Patton-Bader Founder Soldiers' Angels
 
Feh. Arguing with lefties is expensive. Thanks a lot, Princess Crabby! Though it did widen the gap between us and the Marines.
 
John - I wouldn't have thrown in the tax deduction thing. After all I don't know any lefties that don't claim back all they can get, but you’re an Officer and a Gentleman I'm just a crusty old MSgt, so I'm sure that was a good point to make... Besides, I don't know enough lefties to establish a statistical trend. (LOL)
 
*Princess Crabby sweeps in to the Jungle Room, looks around at the disarray.* *Calls over her shoulder to John on the way to the bar* "Is that your empty wallet on the table?" *She laces her fingers over her head and MMMMM long stretch* "Ahhh, I just got in from yoga class and I feel great. Did I tell you about my new body scrub? It smells like vanilla buttercream frosting. Do you think Sailors like that smell?" *Looks behind the bar* "Who's bartending? Who's going to clean this up? Don't you have creatures in the Dungeon for just this sort of thing?"
 
John, Thank you for your donation which helps offset the the administration's refusal to support the troops. I'm sorry you "get savaged from the right for [your] apostasy." At least you won't go straight to hell with the rest of that church. But all in all, this blog is very right-wing, and very offensive to anyone who has respect for other nations and peoples. For example, right here on the sidebar, you quote Sgt. Reginald Abram says about an Iraq who picks up an AK-47, "maybe he's just a dick". If a foreign army were occupying MY country, I'd say anyone who DOESN'T pick up an AK is a dick. As well informed as you are, you must know that our occupation of Iraq has never produced any benefit to the Iraqis. It didn't HAVE to be that way, but Rummy, Cheney, Bush, Blackwater and insufficiently trained (for occupation) troops and others MADE it that way. You are right when you say, "we broke it, we owe it in my mind to try fixing it." But if the store owner says just get out, you should just get out. You can't possibly be so naive as to think this administration is trying to do anything other than cover Bush's ass. There is NOTHING happening in Iraq today designed to help the Iraqis first and foremost. If building a school makes Bush look good, then they get a school. One last thing. I don't know how much you know about Iraqi politics, but if you did, you would know that the Iraqi politicos in the Green Zone are history the second we pull out. They are completely illegitimate and they know it, thats why they want us to stay. Our media has managed to portray Iraqis as idiot rubes when in fact they are not a never were. The idea that they need our help at this point is pure arrogance.
 
Oh, Cliff (*sigh*) – I have to ask you: How much time have you spent in Iraq? How many average Iraqis have you talked to? If you have been paying attention to this blog, you know why I ask this question and why I feel I may ask this question. If you respond and are interested in meaningful dialogue instead of swapping left/right talking points, I’ll tell you what I know from personal experience…
 
Cliff, you take Sergeant Abram out of context. He actually allows for a lot of reasons. All of which are true. And part of my working with Representative Boyda is working to make the Administration support the troops. But don't lay this solely at the feet of the Bush Administration. I'm from a family of myrmidons, going back to WWI on my father's side, and the French and Indian War on my mother's side. We have a looooooooooooong history of know just how virtually no administration follows through on VA-style rhetoric, with the exception of the post-WWII GI Bill, which was as much about giving demobbed soldiers something to do to keep them from causing mischief while the economy shifted back to a peacetime footing as it did doing something for the vets themselves. I'm *doing* something, Cliff. Working within and without the system to effect change. Like I said - find me a charity not as overtly political as VoteVets and I'll drop $250 on it.
   
Cliff - So I take it you are not interested in meaningful dialogue... That's a shame, but pretty much what I expected. Can I ask you another question? Would it bother you if the USA became an Ismalim republic?
 
Oh, there you go, Cliff! You found the smoking gun that obviates everything! I surrender. That one video clearly represents the sole authentic voice and behavior of the American Soldier. AMERICA OUT OF IRAQ NOW! I drink your Kool-Aid, Cliff. Thanks for saving me.
 
Oh for pity's sake, Cliff! That's your point? That's what you're going to hang your hat on? Don't give money to Valor-IT because two immature young men with a video camera did something their mothers would be ashamed of? This wasn't about Iraq. This wasn't about Bush. What in heaven's name is wrong with you? I wouldn't blame John for banishing me to the moat for causing this. FbL - Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. YOU WERE RIGHT. COMPLETELY AND ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
 
John - I have to admire your tact and self-control (plus your perfect use of sarcasm).
 
Oldloadr *sigh*, How can I respond to you? Your premise that somehow an American being in Iraq talking to Iraqis is the only way one can have an opinion on the subject? Do you speak Arabic? Who does one speak to in Iraq. Iraqis in the Green Zone? in the war zone? What makes you think you are not hearing what they want you to hear? Am I missing something, or is it not true Iraqis can get shot for talking to you? I'm still seeing interpreters and Iraqi police hiding their faces. What an "Ismalim republic"?
 
I pledge never to say "Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice" again. If I had a heart........I'd cross it.
 
Cliff – I will answer your questions in reverse order: 1. Sorry I didn’t run spell check, but sometimes we get into the subject and care more about a timely response; so I typed an m instead of c; I guess that makes me one of the unwashed masses that you lefties are out to save. 2. Your idea that Iraqis can get shot talking to us kind of proves my point since they still talked to me and worked on the project I was working on. I was a mere contractor working to blow up stockpiles of potential IED material so they took their lives in their hands to work with us, but still they did. These weren’t the “movers & shakers” and not all of them were the bottom of the food chain. I dealt with day laborers and heavy equipment contactors; basically, lower to middle class. They all were glad we were there since they weren’t too fond of the previous regime and enjoyed life too much to want an Islamic (see, I spelled it right this time) republic. 3. I only passed though the Green Zone once or twice while convoying to one of our sites so I don’t know what the Iraqis in the Green Zone think. I talked to Iraqis who had to go home to who knows what every night. 4. No, I don’t speak Arabic, except for about a dozen words that would make people open up and talk in English. Most middle class Iraqis can speak English. We had a mix of translators (Iraqi, Jordanian, Egyptian, etc) so I don’t think I got a sugar-coated translation. The Iraqis are not dumb, so the working class picked up English very quickly so I had one-on-one conversations with them by the time I left. 5. I believe that every American has the right to their opinion; however, our society has always valued the opinion of an eye-witness of one who only knows hear-say. Does that answer all of your questions? (This entry was spell checked…)
 
I believe that every American has the right to their opinion; however, our society has always valued the opinion of an eye-witness of one who only knows hear-say.
meant to say "over" instead of "of"...
 
BTW - Cliff - One of the Iraqis I talked to a lot was the foreman of our camp maintenance crew. He spent 7 years in Sadaam,s prison system for speaking his mind, but I guess that doesn't matter...
 
If a foreign army were occupying MY country, I'd say anyone who DOESN'T pick up an AK is a dick. Would you include foreign occupiers not part of a uniformed service -- oh, say, like all the Saudis, Jordanians, Syrians, etc. -- who are camping out while they assemble VBIEDs to blow up Iraqi civilians in bazaars, or just members of the foreign army?
 
If a foreign army were occupying MY country, I'd say anyone who DOESN'T pick up an AK is a dick. So what would you have us do when foreigners declare war on the US, and attack us by flying planes into our buildings, killing thousands? I'd say that we picked up our M-16's and went to war, since we don't carry AK's. [Deleted]
 
I see Cliff hasn't come back for a while. Hmmmm. [Deleted - see comment below]
 
Yellow flag, Rulez Warning. Message. Not Messenger.
 
I was wondering if you'd let that stand. Oldloadr- I used a one-word sentence to complete my comment, which went along with the string. But, a well-placed punctuation changes context of things sometimes. that being said... I'll take the yellow flag, but I'm not apologizing.
 
OK John, I hear you, and I support your rulez (since I posed it as a maybe; I didn't think I was in violation). I just get tired of lefties throwing verbal bombs, but never staying around to answer the hard questions or accept that they may have assumed something that is incorrect... Verstehen?
 
Ja, ich versteht. But Rulez only enforced by exception... aren't Rulez. We have enough of that, bi-partisan, in our politics. I've already been called a hypocrite once today, after all. I still lurves you both. AFSis was a clear violation, yours perhaps a lesser, but the trend was Not Good. When your passion pushes you to the edge... well, it's time to step back and take a sip of your lemonade.
 
OK, well lemonade is still better than "The Coolade" Although the Sangria is better than both...
 
AFSis - since we have both been duly chastised for our passion (albeit with the lack of the decorum that the Castle requires) we must both find more subtle ways to call a spade a spade and not an agricultural instrument...
 
No, you simply need to discuss spade employment, design, and cost, etc. Not just mock it for not being a shovel. ☺
 
Depends on what the shovel is shoveling, John.
 
*That* would be the message then, wouldn't it?
 
*That* would be the message then, wouldn't it? "...For all the good they do, they might as well be-e-e-e Shovelling..." If you've been there, you've sung that. Although, I'll admit it's kinda hard to get places like Gillygillyhassenpfefferkatzenellenbogen-By-The-Sea to scan properly...
 
My! Look at all those words laced with negativity. Did you know Cliff, Oldloadr and others that you can't convince anyone to your point of view that way. Well ValourIT gets $550, no matter how ugly out of it assuming Malkin makes good on her promise. That's one whole laptop and a bit i think. If i throw a few slogans on my page can I get $50 out of her too?
 
Good morning, Trias! We did at least generate some commentary and heat today.
 
But Trias, the money went to the Army team.....and I'm on the Navy team. Do you feel my pain?
 
Terrible washout Maggie feel feel just awful about it :-|
 
Careful, Trias - Maggie likes feel-feel. She might be tempted to corrupt your innner nature. As for me, smug self-satisfaction is the order of the day. Duped Navy!
 
If i throw a few slogans on my page can I get $50 out of her too? Let's try, Trias. But based on what you've got on your blog, I'm not sure we'll be able to convince her you're a liberal and not a moderate. ;)
 
Oldloader, You said, "They all were glad we were there since they weren’t too fond of the previous regime" I would suggest they were glad to be there because its a job. I may be wrong, but I don't see the connection to Saddam being gone. That was years ago and THAT honeymoon is over. But all in all, it sounds like your contact with Iraqis was very narrow. You say, “The Iraqis are not dumb, so the working class picked up English very quickly so I had one-on-one conversations with them by the time I left.” I happen to be a linguist and as such, must inject a little reality here. Arabic is a Semitic language and English is Indo European. It takes a good ten years at LEAST for an American to learn Arabic or visa versa. So to say they “picked up English very quickly” is simply impossible. You can appreciate this by looking at the reverse situation. Just think about any American you might know who has been in theatre for years. Does anyone “pick up” Arabic “very quickly?” No, of course not. Then of course you have the cultural issue. As anyone who has lived abroad knows, it takes years before a foreign national will “let you in” so to say, or speak with you frankly, and only then, in THEIR language, not yours. I’ve noticed from the videos that Americans speak to Iraqi at full speed in full vernacular and seem to assume they understand. They don’t, and you know it. So this idea I hear a lot that because you were there, in some narrow capacity, living, eating, breathing with Americans in a very unequal capacity with foreign nationals desperate for a paying job, you are somehow better qualified to assess the situation, is just a fraud. A complete fraud, and anyone who is honest with themselves knows it. So you should stop letting yourself believe that and start to look toward what experts are saying. Both Iraqi nationals and exiles, as well as non-Iraqi historians, analysts, and foreign service professionals are far better in tuned to how the Iraqis feel and think. You belong to a small (and getting smaller) group will use any shred of evidence however erroneous to validate your opinion instead of looking objectively at all the evidence. Christ, just look at the polls of Iraqi citizens. They want us out now. Even John Donovan knows this. You can call me names all you want, but it won’t change reality. Not only was the invasion a huge mistake, the occupation is an even bigger mistake, and as ALL the experts say, there is no way for us to fix it. We lost that chance. So you can call it what you want – defeat, surrender, or bowing out with our hats in our hands – we blew it in Iraq. Bush and the Republicans blew it, and only the Iraqis can fix it AFTER we leave. Will they get help from Iran and Syria? Yes, and we must live with that. Sorry for the reality check. John would tell you them same, but he chooses not to deal with the repercussions from his good friends.
 
"Don't you have creatures in the Dungeon for just this sort of thing?" Yeah, he does. But we're on strike. We want fresher cheetos.
 
We know we got a problem when the last holdouts are playing dungeons and dragons and you gotta pay recruits $20k just to sign up for Knave training.
 
Not I get the "Argghh." My sentiments too. More than six in 10 called the war not worth fighting, ...And thats without most of the country knowing half of whats really going on. Wait until they find out about the massive corruption, failed re-construction, wasted money, contractor fraud and that the current Iraqi government is a puppet regime. Nothing like a bad president to set our military back for another 10 years.
 
Here is the clavicle-snapped wish, the aorta's opened valves, the leap thought makes at the synaptic gap. Here is the adrenaline rush you crave, that inexorable flight, that insane puncture into heat and blood. And I dare you to finish what you've started...because here, Bullet, here is where the world ends, every time.
Brian Turner -infantry team leader with the 2nd Infantry Division,
 
I'm not here to argue the politics (I'll leave that to others). But... "John would tell you them same, but he chooses not to deal with the repercussions from his good friends." Nice, Cliff. You're not playing by the rulez at all. Question your host's honor and integrity. Well done. As his "good friends" know, John has a history of telling people (both personally and professionally) what he thinks when it matters, even when it costs him (and it has). As to the poem, be very careful. You just showed again that you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
Here's the source and entire poem that Cliff quotes above.
 
Cliff - First off, I’m sorry to hear about your learning disability, since you think it takes ten years for people to learn to communicate in a second language on a conversational level. BTW, you came to the wrong place to make that erroneous assertion since just about everybody at this blog has at least a functioning in public knowledge of at least one language other than English and none of us took ten years to get to where we could carry on a conversation. Incidentally, your example of Americans talking to Arabs at a normal speed and assuming they understood is irreverent since my point was about me understanding them. I don’t need a linguistic expert to tell me what a person really means when they come up to you with tears in their eyes and say, “Thank you.” What do you think that means, Cliff? On your cultural issue, I have worked in the ME off and on since the Iranian hostage crisis, so I maybe I won’t be writing any dissertations on Arab culture, but I get by just fine. Anyway, you said that only the Iraqi gov’t wants us to stay and I told you that I met dozens of Iraqis who had nothing to do with the gov’t that wanted the US to stay. You can call me a liar if you want, but you can’t change what I heard with my ears and saw with my eyes. Speaking of which, don’t you think it’s a little hypocritical to take umbrage with me for calling you a name after your diatribe against Michelle Malkin above? 2. It amazes me how lefties are so good at assuming things that fit their paradigm; e.g. the “narrow capacity I worked in.” What would be a broad enough capacity for you? Do I need to be an “expert” like you to know what somebody is saying to me? I dealt with Iraqis from Mosul to Basra. I know that the insurgents weren’t lining up to work for the US Army, but still, you said all Iraqis except the gov’t want us out and I know that that is not true, period. My point isn’t the majority of Iraqis want us to stay, only that you had made an absolute statement that was totally wrong. That of course makes everything else you say suspect (I know it doesn’t to the Left ala Bill & Monica) but it does to the rest of us. 3. Now your rant about President Bush has nothing to do with the points in discussion so I don’t see a need to answer them, especially since you never answered any of the questions I asked you. 4. What I see from you, Cliff is the typical leftie mind set; i.e. if the facts don’t fit my ideology, I’ll ignore the facts. If the facts won’t go way, I’ll just stick my fingers in my ears and yell, “Liar, liar pants on fire!” over and over until everyone quits listening to the messenger bringing the hated facts. 5. One final point, most Iraqis are required to take English in school. Did you know that, Mr. Linguist?
 
Loader, I said it takes ten years to learn, "on a conversational level" a language that crosses one of the three language families.
"everybody at this blog has at least a functioning in public knowledge of at least one language other than English"
Thats wonderful. Spanish, French, German, Russian etc are all easy. Our military personal in Iraq are completely dependent on translators with the few exceptions of people for whom Arabic is their first language. I would suggest you get real honest with yourself and admit that there is not one American soldier over there or here who has speaks Arabic on a conversational level who didn't start learning Arabic long before the war. You know it, I know it and its a serious problem. So since you admit that a majority of Iraqis want us out, ("My point isn’t the majority of Iraqis want us to stay,") why does it matter that a few people came to you with tears in their eyes. Is that a good enough reason to continue the disaster that is our occupation of Iraq? Or should we stay, against all public opinion here and there, because a minority of troops and contractors want to stay? I thought our fellas were fighting for American principles like democracy. Any argument for staying violates that principle period. That congressman got it right, Bush is sending our boys to get their heads blown off for personal and political reasons. Any other argument is one for imperialism for oil. Please understand Mr. Oldloadr, while I respect your personal opinion, I'm not interested in it. What you think doesn't matter, and unfortunately, what a few tearful Iraqis think doesn't matter either (I'm sorry Bush and his supporters screwed them). Even IF we are all wrong, the things that matter are what the majority of the American people, the International community, and the Iraqi people want. If ya'll feel real bad about what we did to the Iraqis, you, and Bush and his rich contractor buddies can all go back and spend as much of your personal money as you want to help the Iraqis (which you/they won't), but as far as the American taxpayers, and the International community goes, its over and done. No more support, and no more money (as soon as we dump a few more democrats.) ...GET OUT NOW! Can you understand that?
 
Cliff – 1. I understand your ideology and your obvious hatred for the current president. However, you claim to be a linguist but you are not making much sense, in that your answers don't match what I said. Plus you still won't admit that you exaggerated on your initial statement that all Iraqis (outside the gov’t) want us out. Instead you go on a tangent about the ones who don't want us out are irrelevant. 2. I never said that any Americans I worked with knew more than a smattering of Arabic. I said that most Iraqis I met (not all, but most) had a conversational knowledge of English. Once again, you read what you wanted to see instead of what was there. 3. So basically, Cliff, first you called me a liar and then, when I wouldn’t back down and drink your cool-aid you said my position was irrelevant. Why wasn’t it irrelevant when you were calling me a liar. I mean, if you think someone’s position doesn’t matter why insult them over it. BTW, I never said what my views were on the war; either the beginning or the current situation; I merely challenged your assertions. Anyway, you still never answered any of my questions even though I have answered yours… another symptom of liberalism.
 
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