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H&I Fires 14 NOV 2007

By Denizens on November 14, 2007 | | Comments (32)

Open post for those with something to share, updated through the day. New, complete posts come in below this one. Note: If trackbacking, please acknowledge this post in your post. That's only polite.

You're advertising here, we should get an ad at your place...

Time to add a new caveat, because from email it's not clear to some folks (mind you, if you don't read this it won't matter...) Being an open post, people (collectively, the Denizens) other than I post in the H&I. They sign their work (most of the time) - keep that in mind when you want to flame someone in email please - if it doesn't say "The Armorer" or "John" then I didn't write it! And honestly - if you don't like something said or posted... leave a comment, and hash it out (within the context of The Rulez which are clearly posted on the comment form, I would add).

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From the hearts of the parents of Brandon Wallace, a soldier, their son, killed in Iraq, comes a tale of healing through music. H/t, Tankerswife.

The official results of the Project Valour-IT fundraiser are in:


Army: $53,023.00
Marines: $39,673.00
Air Force: $25,638.34
Navy/CG: $20,081.75

Money is still coming in from mailed-in donations, the donation widgets still work, and I know I'll be sending in money from my Rotary Club after our meeting today. We're on a glide path to break $200K. Our goal was $240K, but, well, let's just say we had some technical and organizational glitches this time. No worries about the donations - every penny received is going to PVIT - in my case, I had those two Pinups for Vets items up for auction, and I'm paying the postage to ship them to the winners - not Soldier's Angels. All the details can be had by visiting the nearly-nervous-wreck Fuzzybear Lioness! All props to FuzzyBee - herding cats is *simple* compared to herding bloggers. We all have twitchy egos... well, except me, of course! -the Armorer

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EXTRA - EXTRA! Man Marries B**ch! Read all about it! And you all know who got the better end of THIS arrangement. - BOQ

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Don't forget to go vote in CNN's Heroes All-Star Tribute... the Armorer throws his not-inconsiderable weight behind Major Scott Southworth... Let's blogburst this one, too. -the Armorer

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Sometimes a picture really is worth a thousand words. - Damian

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*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

*Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The UAVs (oops, can't call 'em UAVs anymore - they're now Unmanned Aerial Systems... some Colonel got his Legion of Merit for that change...), er, um UAS's we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone"

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32 Comments

By cliff on November 14, 2007 8:07 AM
CBS investigated suicide rates among vets representing the first aggregate among WOT vets and found the rates as high as 32 per 1000 among kids in their twenties. To me, this reflects a culture of pride taken to the extreme. It's tough enough to keep a good attitude when fighting a long, ugly war. And when the whole world thinks the war itself is wrong, it must take a whole lot of denial to keep your chin up. I suppose if I wanted to end my life after doing and seeing more sh&t than any human should in this bad occupation, I would keep it to myself too, out of consideration for my buddies who have to get up everyday and do it again. God Bless our troops.
 
By Maggie on November 14, 2007 8:25 AM
All props to FuzzyBee - herding cats is *simple* compared to herding bloggers. We all have twitchy egos... well, except me, of course! -the Armorer
Agreed! This should have it's own post. For those that don't know, our FbL was evacuated ahead of the CA wildfires just before the start of this campaign. Most of us would still have been licking our own wounds, but she jumped right in and gave it her all. Bravo Zulu, Fuzzy!!! Thanks. You know another fundraising idea is forming in my mind. It's kinda like a pinata. It definitely involves a stick. We'd charge people for the opportunity to take a whack. Gee...what would we string up? What would people be willing to part with cold, hard cash for? What would they want to hit so hard their arms ached...over.....and over....and over again? I'll keep thinking. It'll come to me.
 
By Neffi on November 14, 2007 9:24 AM
Oh sure, Mags- leave us with a cliff-hanger.... ^snerk^
 
By Princess Crabby on November 14, 2007 9:35 AM
*Princess Crabby leans over and plants one on Neffi* Baby!
 
By Boquisucio on November 14, 2007 10:18 AM
Yippie! Did someone say: PIÑATA?
 
By Boquisucio on November 14, 2007 10:22 AM
Sources close to the event report that: "Though it wasn't a Shotgun Wedding, it surely was an M-27 GAU one. Way to go Rin-Tin
 
By kat-missouri on November 14, 2007 10:33 AM
Cliff, I actually have a post for that tomorrow. However, I have to say that your overall politicization of these numbers and people like you is just down right irritating and totally reduces any sympathy for their plight to down ugly partisanship. Your "God bless our troops" seems seriously insincere and hollow after that. Your smarmy satisfaction in their suffering is blatantly apparent. It has nothing to do with this war alone. Neither is the "shame" factor about what war, where or why. The shame factor is the same for most people who have PTSD, other depression and/or consider suicide. It is about how we view ourselves. Most people who don't seek treatment or who consider suicide and never speak are people who generally see their self image tied up in the view of others. They feel that love, pride and respect is contingent on the others' view of them as "strong". Thus, a sign of weakness diminishes that love, pride and respect. So they hide it. Further, veterans often suffer PTSD and severe depression as part of "survivors guilt" which is also common among civilians who are involved in terrible accidents or other tragedies where they survive and their friends or family don't. That's tripled in veterans who have friends, squad mates and multiple other people they serve with who die or are terribly injured more often than anything a civilian might see (except possibly police officers, firemen and doctors who are equally "high" on the list). Finally, though you'd reject it or possibly take twisted pride in it, it is continuing rhetoric like yours that seeks to destroy the honor of service to nation and strip it from these men which complicates and multiplies their shame. In fact, may be lending to the terrible increase of suicides as such language only re-enforces the concept of shame and dishonor. There are no metrics to measure this though it is a widely held belief among clinicians that honor and pride are significant factors in how a service member deals with their issues and conditions. Of course, no media, not "investigative journalists" in print or video, nor any "anti-war" politician or pip-squeak is going to admit this because then they might have to accept some of their own guilt trips back. So, shame on you, sir, for turning an important subject on life and death into political viciousness. You are a small man.
 
By John of Argghhh! on November 14, 2007 10:47 AM
A reminder - message, not messenger. No matter how tempting. That's just not how we do it here. Annoying many of you as it does.
 
By kat-missouri on November 14, 2007 11:58 AM
1) If he doesn't want to be the target, he should not make himself the target. I think his post was pretty clear that the "message" was the personal feelings of the "messenger". 2) I think I was fairly circumspect considering provocation and the messenger in question. Maybe the messenger would like to rephrase his message?
 
By BillT on November 14, 2007 12:24 PM
CBS investigated suicide rates among vets representing the first aggregate among WOT vets and found the rates as high as 32 per 1000 among kids in their twenties. Good old CBS, with its "false, but true" mentality. Excerpted from the linked site: "...according to an October 31 Associated Press article, "A total of 147 troops have killed themselves in Iraq and Afghanistan since the wars began...Add the number of returning veterans and the finding is that at least 430 of the 1.5 million troops who have fought in the two wars have killed themselves over the past six years." According to popular myth, us Viet Vets were killing ourselves in droves when we came back -- from a low of 30,000 to a high of 500,000. The actual figure is about 9,000, to date. According to the CDC Vietnam Experience Study Mortality Assessment, "...during the first 5 years after discharge, deaths from suicide were 1.7 times more likely among Vietnam veterans than non-Vietnam veterans. After that initial post-service period, Vietnam veterans were no more likely to die from suicide than non-Vietnam veterans. In fact, after the 5-year post-service period, the rate of suicides is less in the Vietnam veterans' group."
 
By Damian on November 14, 2007 12:53 PM
Octagon time. I got fifty on Kat.
 
By John of Argghhh! on November 14, 2007 1:24 PM
Don't take that bet, folks.
 
By Princess Crabby on November 14, 2007 1:45 PM
Damian - That's not the interesting bet. You want to handicap the runners, should John let us loose. It would be quite the stampede.
 
By BillT on November 14, 2007 1:56 PM
Good old "It's false, but it's true" CBS. The actual number of OIF/OEF vets who have suicided over the past *six years* is, as of October 31, four hundred and thirty, according to the Vet's Affairs Office -- the same source that CBS cites as the source of the thirty two per thousand. There are presently a million and a half OIF/OEF vets, the majority of whom are in their twenties. Do the math. Same type of crapola numbers were used to "prove" us Viet Vets were killing ourselves in droves. The highest count I saw was 500,000 -- the actual number is right around 9,000. The suicide rate among vets of those wars the CDC has been tracking (the CDC considers suicide a "mental disease") usually jumps above the national average the first year after arrival back home, then drops to the national average for about five years, then drops *below* the average after five years.
 
By John of Argghhh! on November 14, 2007 2:16 PM
Learn from UncaBill. *That* is how we do it at the Castle. And will somebody please clean up all the enamel chips on the floor from all the teeth-grinding going on around here? And the vibrato from it is enervating.
 
By FbL on November 14, 2007 2:18 PM
And will somebody please clean up all the enamel chips on the floor from all the teeth-grinding going on around here? And the vibrato from it is enervating. I'd laugh if my head wasn't already pounding. Must be from the teeth grinding... ;) And Maggie has it absolutely right, folks.
 
By FbL on November 14, 2007 2:29 PM
Btw, John... "nearly" no longer applies. I am now retiring to bed in utter exhaustion with a headache. Send someone with rosewater and a cool drink, please. :P Thanks for the kind words, John and Maggie.
 
By BloodSpite on November 14, 2007 3:15 PM
Rosewater? *blink* Rose....water? *blinkblink* I was thinkin more along the lines of this sorta bath as relaxin'.... but rose water .....? (And the link is more than likely work safe depending on how finicky your Overlords are_
 
By John of Argghhh! on November 14, 2007 3:27 PM
We're talking FuzzyBee here, Pardner. She's a delicate flower.
 
By ry on November 14, 2007 3:32 PM
I don't know if it was intentional or not, but it isn't 32/1000, but 32/100K. NOt only that, but the reportage is spotty. They essentially cheat. How?
"It found that veterans were more than twice as likely to commit suicide in 2005 than non-vets. (Veterans committed suicide at the rate of between 18.7 to 20.8 per 100,000, compared to other Americans, who did so at the rate of 8.9 per 100,000.)"
They only use the male rate against that of the total for the population(which gets suppressed by inclusion of women, who don't suicide as often). That number drops preciptitiously if you use the aggregate of male and female veterans and then compared that to the national mixed gender aggregate. Which is where the 'lies, damn lies, and then there's statistics' slogan comes in. It'd be far less shocking, and we want shock. And that's using their own numbers since I haven't gone to CDC or used medline yet(nor will I, it's just not on my radar screen. There's better things to be doing about this than witching about it, like getting off one's own butt and volunteering. But, hey, apparently witching about it is more fun and allows one to preen.), which is where I would've started to research this(but hey, what would one expect a bunch of communications and English majors to know about doing lit searches anyway.) instead of simply running to the gov't. The bigger question in my mind is, okay, so what're you gonna do about it? It's one thing to bring it up and witch about it. It's quit another to actually care instead of simply using it as a rhetorical 'trump card'. Well, what's anyone going to do about it other than witch? I'm not down for simply witching about it. I take care of those vets and active servicemen I can, those I know and those I grew up with(visiting HLIC after his cancer surgery 2 summers ago, my buddy in the post below, and others). If someone has something good to deal with this, because, you know, it's not simply going to evaporate if we leave Iraq, then fine let's hear it and we can get moving on it. Otherwise, save the preening for those impressed by such mental masturbation.
 
By FbL on November 14, 2007 5:12 PM
I don't know if it was intentional or not, but it isn't 32/1000, but 32/100K. Oh, there's plenty of reason not to give benefit of the doubt in this case. *leaving enamel chips on the floor again* Headache is slightly better for the moment, though... :)
 
By HomefrontSix on November 14, 2007 6:47 PM
And will somebody please clean up all the enamel chips on the floor from all the teeth-grinding going on around here?
THIS is why I chew gum. Easier on the pearly whites. Plus, it lends even more credence to the angry looks given to those who irritate me.
We're talking FuzzyBee here, Pardner. She's a delicate flower.
You sure you don't mean "lightweight"?? (Love ya Fuzzy! Shall I have Lex order you another drink from the bar? He did SUCH a good job of it in D.C. hee hee)
 
By BillT on November 14, 2007 7:19 PM
The bigger question in my mind is, okay, so what're you gonna do about it? VetAffairs expanded the hours its "Real, Live Person" hotlines operate -- only took them a month to realize people don't just get depressed during gummint working hours. There's a boatload of information on VA services and some thumbnail sketches on suicide prevention and PTSD here, if you're curious.
 
By FbL on November 14, 2007 10:05 PM
Hey, HFS: Pbbbbbttttt!!!! Such a tiny person doesn't have much room to talk about holding her drink... :D
 
By ry on November 14, 2007 10:21 PM
At the end of the day Chief something needs to be done about the stigma of PTSD and depression in the Services. A hotline isn't going to do that. The hotline is exactly what they fear is the first step toward the end of the career or a less than honorable discharge(with all the money/benefit sheenanigans we've heard about over the last two years). I don't know how to do that. I don't know how anyone could change the whole institutional culture like that(John? Chief? Dusty? Ain't this kinda your gig instead of stupid little ol' Gollum?). I can only help those I know and live around me when they're up on the 'ledge'. That's just the way it is, and if my experiences with Korean and Vietnam vets at Leisure World in Seal Beach, CA is any indicator it's always been this way. Some guys can be tortured by the scum of the earth and keep on keepin' on, some guys survive a night attack while his buddies didn't and winds up offing himself a couple years later. It might just be the way it is. THough I will say it makes me wonder what the rates are for all 20th century wars. If the rate is always like this then big whoop, as callous as that sounds. War is never an entirely good thing. We all know that. It isn't nice to those who have had to partake. But if it is the same for, say, WW2 vets as it is for GWOT vets, well, that's just the nature of the beast. Maybe there's a better way to demob these guys? Get them work before they exit the service? Get them something normal? I don't know. I just know that bringing it up on a blog for cheap argument points is about the most useless thing you can do. Maybe we ought to post that on the front page instead of down here in the comments? Sounds like the most useful thing we can do about it on the blog.
 
By HomefrontSix on November 15, 2007 12:22 AM
Fuzzy ~ right back atcha. If I'm not mistaken, I not only managed to hold my alcohol that evening but a set of car keys as well. And my bladder from laughing so damn hard. Ah, fond memories! Going to have to do that again sometime soon. With regard to the actual debate taking place, I'll keep my personal opinions of those on the other side of it to myself. However, I read the post that Fuzzy has up about The Marlboro Marine, James Blake Miller and I start to think that the institutions themselves are not offering up the change that needs to happen in order to break the belief that asking for help is a sign of weakness and that it will end your career in the military. A lot of times, that seems to be the WORST possible outcome for men (and women) who are most in need of help. Like Ry, I don't know what the answer is or if there is an answer. I pray there is. I pray we find it. Quickly. But Cliff, generalizations and talking points ARE NOT the answer. They are part of the problem.
 
By kat-missouri on November 15, 2007 12:49 AM
that's coming up tomorrow. Cheap politics and arguing numbers don't do anything to mitigate the problems. One of which is definitely not enough resources. Posting tomorrow. Hotline though is one tool and its important for people to reach out to. It's anonymous. It's a stop gap. it may have kept those numbers down by a few. but it is the treatment and the stigma that is the question.
 
By John of Argghhh! on November 15, 2007 6:07 AM
The bigger question in my mind is, okay, so what're you gonna do about it? I got picked up by 2/3s of my Federal representation in Congress as a gadfly on the issue of veteran's health care and we, via this space, flogged the issue sufficiently to get on the VA, DoD, and White House radar on the subject. And yes, even if you don't blog here, you read here, and stats count. A lot.
 
By John of Argghhh! on November 15, 2007 6:39 AM
Ry - the services *are* trying to change the culture regarding PTSD. But cultural change like that, which gets at the root of some of the bases of warrior culture are hard, as the change, imposed from the top, has to be *accepted* in the middle, esp. the NCO ranks. And it takes time - because only over time, when the soldiery (including their officers) see that there clearly aren't performance (i.e., peer/subordinate/superior acceptance) and sufficient hard and anecdotal evidence thatpromotion and assignment penalties accruing to those who embrace the change, will the change truly take root and hold. Which means the senior officer ann NCO leadership have to make a determined effort. I've seen some of that around here and where I go in the Army, but since I don't hang in the units much anymore, I'm getting a pretty top-down view, and it's still from the outside, not inside.
 
By Oldloadr on November 15, 2007 9:26 AM
How far do you think they can get with the culture shift? Do you think the career NCOs and Officers will be able to trust the gov't to not hold a voluntary trip to the mental health clinic against them when it comes time for their next security clearance background update? With so many traditional non-combat jobs being outsourced; an E-7/E-8 with 16 years is not going to be very likely to embrace that change, since now days it means not only the possibility of leaving a specialty that you are comfortable in but possibly leaving the military altogether. During the cold war, if a GI lost his/her security clearance, he/she could always pass out basketballs at the base gym until they got their 20, but those days are over. I’m not sure about the Army, but the AF has darn few jobs left that don’t require a clearance. If said E-7/E-8 doesn't embrace (trust), then that will be apparent to his/her troops, as well.
 
By John of Argghhh! on November 15, 2007 9:38 AM
I don't know how well it's going to work, Oldloadr. The discussion on this continues in the 15 November posts, and that includes some official Army-speak on the issue.
 
By FbL on November 15, 2007 10:52 AM
Yes, some funny memories. :) Vegas, maybe? God help us! LOL (And for the bystanders who have no idea what we're talking talking about, the keys mentioned were NOT mine).