We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html Wed, 03 Dec 2008 13:00:41 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification [Since Bill is about to re-enter the cockpit, it seems a good time to republish this bit of his - which will make some of the Denizen's comments on Bill's announcement yesterday take on a clarity for the new readers among us. -the Armorer] Military aviation is an unforgiving vocation -- it's just as easy to get killed flying the friendly skies as it is flying the hostile ones. The following tale was originally published in Flightfax, Army Aviation's safety 'zine, in September 1997. I've added some short notes for clarification purposes, since we don't have a whole slew of... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html Tue, 12 Jun 2007 11:29:40 -0600 East Bay Regional Park Police, 1982 Back seat, me onboard medic, x slick pilot Randy, (Sarg. Parent to me) angels 900, low in the canyons looking at all da purty hills in the "Flyin Gucci bag"(Sand brown paint with wide green and red stripes down the turbine cowl of an X loach 500-E (bought surplus for a buck from the uncle) look down, look up at the tree o-clock....Big...BIG white wings two engine Bonanza cranked hard port and DDDDIIIIVVVVVVING just below my pucker'd web seat with just the right amount of wake turb to ensure post pucker moistness of an unexpected quanity......Randy would always tell me when I brought it up later, "Come-on Rich," Not even close!" He would know, http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-61106 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-61106 Wed, 13 Jun 2007 00:02:32 -0600 Can I open my eyes and peek now? Every time I read one of the TINS I read between my fingers. I know, I am the duly appointed Castle Wimp. I KNOW how it ends because one of the participants is alive to tell the tale. And the html doesn't work so I can't ever snark in a refined manner. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-61101 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-61101 Tue, 12 Jun 2007 20:22:35 -0600 So, should we lobby Congress for sideways ejection seats in hellafloppers? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19240 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19240 Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:25:36 -0600 OK - you got me there! But you didn't answer the core question - was there anything worth recovering from the helo? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19216 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19216 Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:02:13 -0600 lived!]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19152 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19152 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:32:38 -0600 Was much of the machine recoverable?? It's amazing that the guys walked away!! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19124 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19124 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:17:44 -0600 I heard about that one--one of my buds was on the recovery mission (the aircraft, not the crew). http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19101 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19101 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:48:58 -0600 Great thread, I'll have to stop by more often. Reminds me of the time in '73 in Germany....CW2 Maint Off liked to use the AH1's for parts runs (about the only way to get some hours on them) with an EM maint type for front seat ballast. Ammo bay door dropped open letting a brand new in the box top half UH-1 particle seperator exit the aircraft, taking the tail rotor with it. Story was they swapped ends from 2000 feet. Finally found CW2 and SP5 somewhat inebriated in the closest gasthaus. Aaahhh, the good old days!! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19095 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19095 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 07:57:02 -0600 Absolutely correct. Ansbach vs. Mesa, Arizona. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19088 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19088 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:18:45 -0600 "Why Tankers Get Depressed" Not too often, one of my buddies in training (Tank school) was an ex-TOW gunner, and started out on the 106mm Recoiless Rifle. Depends on the infamous "Tactical Situation". Cheers JMH http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19085 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19085 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:30:21 -0600 Nothing to ruin a tanker's day like a TOW from the blue... Thanks Bill! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19056 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19056 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:51:28 -0600 Have a seat, kiddo--you've got a foot-rub comin'! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19004 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-19004 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:21:04 -0600 Hi Bill! I'm all done dancing...ready to party! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18996 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18996 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:46:42 -0600 here and a long-shot of full-color is here. And, for something completely different, follow the smoke trail to view a just-launched TOW missile--subtitle: "Why Tankers Get Depressed"... ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18995 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18995 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:38:49 -0600 Barb - Thirteens in the original 'cuz I was wearing winter-weight boots and two pair of socks. It's spring now. Jtg - Teetering (aka "semi-rigid) rotor is keerect. Three things can cause mast bumping: suddenly unloading the rotor system (negative G), too-rapid cyclic movement aft-then-forward and losing a portion of the control linkage above the swashplate, which is the component that transmits pitch-change movement to the rotor disk. A Cobra has a fourth little trick, a SCAS failure. SCAS is the Stability Control Augmentation System--electric sensor, hydraulic actuator. If it fails and you don't catch it in time, the nose pitches up, the hub pitches down and you launch the Big Frisbee. If you have normal reflexes, you can correct for it with no problems. MAWK - Yer back! Problem isn't picking up extra heartbeats, it's keeping the ones you've got inside your rib cage and out of your throat. I won't mention the other two things that sometimes feel the need for company at a time like that and crawl up to grab your epiglottis, cuz you don't have 'em to worry about... John - And aviation. They don't let the new kids visit the boneyard anymore. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18988 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18988 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:16:01 -0600 Whatsa matter, John - feet ticklish?? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18986 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18986 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:57:43 -0600 EEEEeeeee!!!!!! EVERYBODY leave everybody's feet alone! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18966 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18966 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:35:27 -0600 Well, stop handling Chief's sweaty, puffy feet! sheesh hehe http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18962 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18962 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:03:26 -0600 Hmmm - sweaty feet usually feel puffy to me ;-) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18960 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18960 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:00:41 -0600 ...sweat shrinkage, I'll bet... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18958 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18958 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:53:55 -0600 *Ahem* Bill - How come in the original it was size thirteens, and now it's size twelves, Hmmm???? Your feet gettin' smaller over time? ;-) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18957 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18957 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:52:21 -0600 all once young, dumb, and full of.. errh... combustibles. Nobody with any sense of self-preservation joins combat arms; gotta recruit those kids who think they're indestructible. old adage: 'Everyone is born into this life with a full bag of luck, and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before the bag of luck runs out...']]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18950 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18950 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:56:33 -0600 am back now, Vogons like orders too much for my taste...]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18949 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18949 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:33:22 -0600 Heh. This just goes to show why we recruit youngsters with no knowledge of what they're facing for the infantry, eh, Bill? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18948 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18948 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:33:00 -0600 ah sheesh, JMH... what's a model number or two. As for my own influence in the progression of tank designs, the fact is that I... I... ah Helk, I didn't tell the Grand Jury, why should I tell you?! heh http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18947 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18947 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:32:03 -0600 Chief, that was OUTSTANDING! I'd fly with you in a heartbeat (even though I may pick up a few dozen heartbeats in the process!) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18946 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18946 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:29:03 -0600 I have a URL about the dreaded "mast-bump" saved around here somewheres, but can't find it right now. Suffice it for me to say that it's a problem one can have with hellafloppers with two-bladed teetering rotors, when the pilot, or the atmosphere, or something, causes the rotor to move violently and quickly about its teetering axis so as to bang up against its stops and break something, usually the "mast", or shaft from which all of the rest of the machine hangs.. Did I get that right, Bill? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18942 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18942 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 18:00:31 -0600 Umm, when I wrote "Did you live?" I was referring to the most ancient, most traditional kind of war story, in which the last two lines are: Grandkid: And what happened then, Grampa? Grampa: Why, I was killed, of course! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18940 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18940 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:51:01 -0600 I figure that Bill's proven his ability to find a way to survive anything! I'd love a ride in a helo he's flying ;-) Then again - what're the odds of that happening, eh? :-( http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18939 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18939 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:47:40 -0600 Woops. Posted too fast, and now I see Bill's comment. Manufacturer numbers - OK, that makes (more) sense. Still like the look of the old Cobras, especially with the toothy mouth. I thought that was a thing of the past, but I remember seeing a couple of Apaches with calvary swords and alligator mouths on them during Operation Iraqi Freedom (7th Cav, I think). That just a Calvary thing? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18938 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18938 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:47:17 -0600 Oh, the sad thing is, I like flying in 'em. Always have. And I'll even get in one Bill's flying. Sigh. I'm stupid that way. Hell, Heaven would be the cargo seat of an A-10 trainer - with Dusty at the stick, 'rolling in'. Hell, I'll even go scout Minuteman silos with Neffi. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18937 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18937 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:41:53 -0600 Ah, that clears it up. Clear as mud. Thanks anyway, though. Back to the story - great one. I like the look of the Cobras - but I think I like being able to admire them from here, safe on the ground. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18934 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18934 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:18:34 -0600 Jtg - If I'd had an in-flight mast-bump, nobody would ever have heard of me except as a statistic. And yer right about the "Jesus nut." http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18932 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18932 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:08:19 -0600 Think manufacturers. Think manufacturers' product numbers. Lockheed AH-56 (Cheyenne). Sikorsky S-67 (Blackhawk, as distinct from the UH-60 Black Hawk). Woulda been the AH-67, except the AH-56 beat it out, then the AH-56 folded and was replaced by the AH-64. Heh. Scout/Observation designations are even more fun. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18931 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18931 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:05:03 -0600 UtahMan Probably was influenced by the Army tank numbers advancing, in a logical sequence, from M-60 to MBT-70 to M-1. I blame Neffi as a root cause. Cheers JMH http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18930 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18930 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:33:45 -0600 Mast Bump Story! I wanna mast-bump story! (And, uh, did you live?) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18929 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18929 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:23:35 -0600 Ummmm--I was exonerated on [*peering over shoulder*] all sixty-two counts. Heh. Long story. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18928 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18928 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:14:53 -0600 In Bill's defense - he did *survive* all his incidents. Which, while a mandatory requirement for recounting his adventures, is not necessary to experience them! By the way, chopper question for anyone to answer - why do the model numbers go from the AH-1 (cobra) to AH-64 (Apache)? What happened to the intervening 62 models? Or is Bill the explanation? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18927 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18927 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:09:24 -0600 No, I believe that's called the "Jesus *Nut*". Suspended in the air by one nut... Heck, *two* would be pretty bad... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18926 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18926 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:08:04 -0600 I hear tell of a crucial component of a helicopter known as the "Jesus bolt". 'Cause when you lose it ... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18925 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18925 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:53:21 -0600 Ah, yes, why I prefer airplanes to hellafloppers! An airplane is a structure, a 'flopper is a *machine*. All of the hubschrauber's itty bitty linkages and spinning things have to work, just for it to fly at all! That said, I tend to agree with the fellow who said that a well-designed, well-made, well-maintained, well-flown helicopter is the safest thing in the air. That's a kinda long chain of conditions, though. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18921 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18921 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:36:28 -0600 O' course they were first person. Think I'd subject some other poor schnook to all that adrenaline overdose? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18917 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18917 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:24:44 -0600 Dusty - no snark intended, I was just referring to tales of horror from the cockpit. Bill has been submitting these to FlightFax for years... always in the First Person, which is some cause for concern, what with he's flying US Gubbermint proppity 'n all! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18914 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18914 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:02:25 -0600 But not knowing until it's over is part of the [*gaaak--hork*] thrill. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18913 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18913 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:58:35 -0600 Hey - I have a sense of adventure. I just want to survive the lessons ;-) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18912 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18912 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:23:38 -0600 Hmf. No sense of adventure. >>hzz. has sense of common, though. [*whap*] YIPE! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18908 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18908 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:11:07 -0600 Wow, Bill! I'm glad you're here to tell the tales - we'll have to renegotiate the next series of virtual helo lessons ;-) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18906 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18906 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:47:30 -0600 ...and I had an entertaining 2 minutes myself Saturday, culminating in a near-perfect touchdown after a 'sideways' approach on final, courtesy a very strong gust-front. But can't touch Chief for pucker factor this time... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18905 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18905 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:46:32 -0600 I'm not writing...but I am listening...Have nothing profound to say right now but when I do I'll mash the mic button. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18903 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18903 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:41:43 -0600 Not a problem. Quite the reverse, in fact. You'd probably have to go to an ER to get the seat removed... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18901 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18901 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:35:53 -0600 Yeah, but Beth would get grumpy about the underwear situation... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18899 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18899 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:32:06 -0600 Look on the bright side--you won't be bored... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18896 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18896 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:28:47 -0600 Bill - I've got some good news and some bad news. 1. Good news - you write aviation crash/problem stories pretty well. 2. Bad news. They're first person. 3. Good News. You get published a lot. 4. Bad News. In FlightFax, in First Person Stories. I'm somewhat nervous about getting into any aircraft in which you have a front seat... Of course, for all I know the only difference between you, Dusty, and Neffi is - they don't write much... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18894 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/tins_there_i_was.html#comment-18894 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:26:18 -0600