We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:26:07 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification Open post for those with something to share, updated through the day. New, complete posts come in below this one. Note: If trackbacking, please acknowledge this post in your post. That's only polite. You're advertising here, we should get an ad at your place... *********************************** The High Lord Phibian(CDR. Salamander to those who speak English) has a post that has me a bit hot under the collar. Piracy grows when the SLOC aren’t defended. There’s no better proof of Mahan to me than this. Damn the French navy skipper for not doing his job. Damn him to hell. -- True,... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:53:04 -0600 If we are not over there prepared to conduct NCB VBSS......then why are we there? IT's a good question though, asked a little better by Lord Phib, what're we doing using an L ship in that role? Is ths crew of that ampbib current in training for that mission? Bad platform, bad decision. I can see why she's there but circumstances definitely were not in our favor here. But cowardice it was not. People are making a lot of the Law, but I'm seeing a different thing at work here. Taking her back by force results in a dead crew. Risk to benefit. But I disagree that it's an all American affair. Not according to Gates of Vienna citing Navy Times. The French vessel observed the boarding and the BH came on scene after the boarding was over. Tough call. Do the boarding and have all the prisoners killed while taking out the pirates, with the attendant geo-political problems that come along with it. Or let the pirates make off with the boat and let the Danes buy their people back, with the attendant problems *that* creates. I'll leave the BH skipper alone. He was man on site making a tough call to make. He made it and he has to live with it. Not sure I see a best option here. The French skipper faced a similar position: fire on pirates as they boarded or before they did and live with the consequences of that. I'm a little less forgiving. Assaulting a hostile ship is hard work, dangerous. Likely to end with all the prisoners dead. But shooting the 'rats before they scale the side while bending a rule? Again, he's man on site and has to live with the decision. Tough call, but I do see a somewhat clear best option. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60918 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60918 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:10:59 -0600 Perhaps a Landing Ship Dock is a poor choice for anti pirate ops. Perhaps that cover is good for explaining why a floating base is operating in an area where special ops are so busy. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60917 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60917 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:09:03 -0600 The truncation monster has bitten again. My last sentence in the previous comment should have read: "I thought everybody knew that." . . . . http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60916 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60916 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:41:59 -0600 I already remarked on this, at Lex's place. They did have the other vessel in range long enough to trash the boats in tow. From looking at the pic it's obvious where the machinery is in the Danish ship. Our own Coast Guard has been known to use the fifties on the engine compartments of yachts owned by "free traders" who refuse the visit and search. I wonder if the 25mm guns had projectiles capable of going through the hull plating before exploding, and if having them would have helped. Really, I think this shows that any naval vessel should have weapons capable of making serious holes in any other vessel of similar size, in order to be taken seriously. I thought everybody knew tha http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60915 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60915 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:37:16 -0600 Lt Gay said the Carter Hall is in the waters off eastern Africa specifically for "anti-piracy search operations". Excuse me? If we are not over there prepared to conduct NCB VBSS......then why are we there?]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60914 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60914 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:33:28 -0600 Salamander's updated post. And I know what the difference is between a TinCan and an Amphib. That was not my point. Last week, the 12 nm limit didn't stop us.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60911 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60911 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:10:59 -0600 I can see you now, John- up in the prow of the LSD with a NoI MkIII*, shouting "Hold 'er steady Cap'n, I can hit the bugger from here!!!' Heh http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60910 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60910 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 17:56:24 -0600 In comparison... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60908 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60908 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 16:02:43 -0600 In other words... it's me. Except that I'm not lightly armed... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60907 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60907 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 16:00:38 -0600 Length: 609 feet (185.6 meters). Beam: 84 feet. Displacement: 16,708 tons (16,976.13 metric tons) full load. Speed: 20+ knots (23.5+ miles per hour). Crew: Ships Company: 22 officers, 397 enlisted; Marine Detachment: 402 plus 102 surge. Armament: Two 25mm MK 38 Machine Guns, Two 20mm Phalanx CIWS mounts and Six .50 cal. machine guns. Landing/Attack Craft: Two Landing Craft, Air Cushion. Ships: USS Harpers Ferry (LSD 49), Sasebo, Japan USS Carter Hall (LSD 50), Little Creek, VA USS Oak Hill (LSD 51), Little Creek, VA USS Pearl Harbor (LSD 52), San Diego, CA It is not a Frigate: General Characteristics, Oliver Hazard Perry Class Builder: Bath Iron Works: FFG 8, 11, 13, 15, 29, 32, 36, 39, 42, 45, 47, 49, 50, 53, 55, 56, 58, 59 Todd Shipyards, Seattle: FFG 28, 31, 37, 40, 48, 52 Todd Shipyards, San Pedro, Calif.: FFG 9, 12, 14, 19, 23, 30, 33, 38, 41, 43, 46, 51, 54, 57, 60, 61. Date Deployed: 17 December 1977 (Oliver Hazard Perry) Propulsion: Two General Electric LM 2500 gas turbine engines; 1 shaft, 41,000 shaft horsepower total. Length: 445 feet (133.5 meters); 453 feet (135.9 meters) with LAMPS III modification. Beam: 45 feet (13.5 meters). Displacement: 4,100 tons (4,165.80 metric tons) full load. Speed: 29 plus knots (33.4+ miles per hour). Crew: 17 Officers, 198 Enlisted. Armament: Standard Missile (MR); Harpoon (from Standard Missile Launcher); Six MK-46 torpedoes(from two triple mounts); One 76 mm (3-inch)/62 caliber MK 75 rapid fire gun; One Phalanx close-in-weapons system. Aircraft: Two SH-60 (LAMPS III) in FFG 8, 28, 29, 32, 33, 36-61 One SH-2 (Lamps Mk-I) in FFG 9-19, 30, 31. Ships: Nor is it a Destroyer, nor a Patrol Gunboat. To summarize ... it's big fat slow and lightly armed. It's like that fat cousin everyone has who can never catch anyone at the annual family picnic, but who sweats a lot trying. The chances of an LSD maneuvering to cut off another ship making a run are two .. slim and none. A Frigate or Destroyer or Patrol Gunboat might, but all this fat old lady could do would be to try to pump enough small caliber gunfire into it to disable or sink it. That might tick off the Danes. The Navy worries about that sort of thing. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60905 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60905 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:33:46 -0600 JimB - What's your point? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60904 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60904 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:54:32 -0600 Thanks for the link, John. It was a fun experience, and great to hear the 'rest of the story' about a very interesting man. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60889 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60889 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 10:07:52 -0600 Maggie .... chill that ship is USS Carter Hill as in LSD 50. She is an amphib big fat and slow, and very lightly armed. She is built to carry Marines not engage Naval targets. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60888 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60888 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 09:47:03 -0600 The USS Carter Hill, part of a U.S. task force that helps maintain security off Somalia and nearby countries, engaged the pirates after they hijacked a Danish cargo ship, the Danica White, in international waters, said Lt. Denise Garcia, a public affairs officer at U.S. Naval Forces Central Command in Bahrain. The U.S. ship fired several warning shots across the Danica White's bow and also destroyed three small boats the pirates had used in their assault and were towing behind the Danish vessel, according to Garcia, who said the incident occurred Saturday. The U.S. ship called off its pursuit after the pirates navigated the Danica White into Somalia's territorial waters, where the U.S. does not have jurisdiction, Garcia said. I'm not real happy with us right now either.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60887 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60887 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 09:39:57 -0600 look it up here.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60885 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60885 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 09:32:00 -0600 yet again that France is nearly worthless as an ally.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60879 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60879 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 08:17:14 -0600 But asking if there are links between former Iraqi Intelligence officers and terrorist organizations is a good question to attempt to answer. I would think the answer would be an automatic yes. If you take in to consideration past exploits of former Intelligence personnel of other countries that either were deposed or simply imploded, then I don't see how it's even a question. A great example would be the former KGB agents, whom they have since tied to everything from IRA weapons supplying, Organized Crime, Baader Mein, and even action in Somalia. Take it another step and ask how many Iraqi agents may and or may not have been Soviet Union trained somewhere down the road, and then passed that training on, and it's not a far stretch at all. Just my opinion ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60876 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/06/hi_fires_07_jun.html#comment-60876 Thu, 07 Jun 2007 06:33:08 -0600