We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html Sun, 03 Aug 2008 16:31:36 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification Open post for those with something to share, updated through the day. New, complete posts come in below this one. Note: If trackbacking, please acknowledge this post in your post. That's only polite. You're advertising here, we should get an ad at your place... *********************************************** Yet more contrary views: Project on Defense Alternatives says There’s No Good Reason to Grow The Army and Marine Corps, since it’s only Iraq that’s pinching deployable troop numbers. -- Shloky says Tigerhawk doesn’t know war. That also extends to a lot of the rest of us too. The Hyper-empowered individual and 4GW makes mass... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html Sat, 19 May 2007 23:39:02 -0600 Shlok, that's the bit of Robbism I can't buy. Sorry, just can't. I'm seeing a different trend. A return to things like Christendom and Islamdom. The battles are fought by hyper-empowered but the goal is mass system. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60265 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60265 Tue, 22 May 2007 07:29:55 -0600 P.s. I mentioned in a comment to another post, that I try to act like a rational grownup and control my violent passions. Some of the people we're fighting seem to get great joy from exulting and *wallowing* in their violent, and yes animal, passions. In public. On Youtube, and bragging about it, even. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60261 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60261 Tue, 22 May 2007 00:22:52 -0600 And they ARE bullies. I mean, isn't cutting somebody's head off with a dull knife the act of a bully? If that ain't, I don't know what is. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60260 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60260 Mon, 21 May 2007 23:59:35 -0600 vox clamantis in deserto. You'll be shouted down; it won't matter how good a job you do at propaganda, even assuming you do an excellent job at getting the word out. You'll be drowned out. Plus there is the whole 'mean-spirited poopy head/intolerance' aspect that conservatives have always had to contend with - in America anyone who tries to say anything bad against a Person of Cholor is not only Wrong but unbearably Wrong/Bad. As we all know, the only acceptable pariahs in American culture are upper class white males. But this does prove that it is possible to mock, deride, and dehumanize an entire class of people. We do it all the time. You just have to choose your victyms carefully, and you have to portray them as bullies so no one is tempted to feel sorry for them :p What the media have done with our enemies by hiding the evidence of their atrocities is prevent anyone from viewing them as bullies. And so no one can say a bad word about them. It always helps to have a friend on the inside. ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60245 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60245 Mon, 21 May 2007 12:15:06 -0600 Ah, Ry! Finally somebody else who understands the Combined Action Platoons! Didn't have a chance, even though it worked right well. A real militia is anathema to all big government types, be they communist or corporate-statist. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60222 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60222 Sun, 20 May 2007 03:45:49 -0600 You liked the PDA one John? I came away thinking "Well, sure, that makes sense, if we don't actually go anywhere or do anything." What'd I miss then? Given: civilian side of reconstruction is well short of what it should be. But, we're deploying more than 1/3 of total force, including Reserve component, in 1.25 wars(same general theatre)? I dunno. That's not sounding like being able to fight 1.5 wars in two theatres to me. What's my stoooped butt missing there then? (Oh, and isn't that what I linked to yesterday? Okay, it's the expanded FbL story, but I linked to that yesterday. First you edit and then you copy? Baggins!) TH, sorry. I wasn't looking to pick on you. I just do the Castle Contrarian Corps thing. I only get stale cheetos if I do stuff to prevent echochamber creep around here. I think Shloky is talking past you. I get what he's saying(you don't call up the state's national guard to combat the mafia or hackers---you bring in old sheepdogs who know how to work the underground for intel), but you've also got a point---in kinetic situations we can't be overly squimish. Obey the LoLW and GC in constructionist interpretations but no more. A little more rare steak and less tofu, neh? Cass. Oh, I know I'm going to wind up like Brendan Fraser in the movie Monkeybone when he get's sent back to Earth by Whoopie Goldberg where she kicks him like a football and instructs him to position himself properly for the kick(lift your butt a little higher, a little higher, hold it.(wham!)), but Shloky isn't talking total trash. He's in Bill Lind and TX Hammes theoretical land. Shlok's actually looking at things in a way to not put your Marine in a no win sol'n where he's only a target since he's an improperly used tool---you don't send the Marines to handle the mafia(poor analogy, but it's the best one I can come up with right now). That's what John's talking about when he's talking about Emperial watchstanders. You need the right tool for the right job. THere's some things the Marines(particularly with their history of small wars, and being the first service to get it right in 'Nam wrt the indigenous people) are the best tool for and others they aren't. That's what Shloky, John Robb, Barnett, and the others are looking at. What's the best tool so we don't use your Marine stupidly, like using a quaryman's chisel to repair eyeglasses or a pocket watch. Has little to do with OODA, but much with selecting the proper tool to wage battle in the moral sphere of war(since we're using Boyd). (A little higher? Okay. I've got my hockey helmet on. (cringe and whimper)). http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60221 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60221 Sun, 20 May 2007 02:57:00 -0600 For what it is worth, my argument is pretty simple: Dehumanization of the enemy has worked in the past because of nationalism, designed to bring multiple decision cycles (250 million+ ) into a more manageable size - as close to 1 as possible. But, given the relatively recent developments that drive technological empowerment of humans, de-humanizing the enemy won't work because it is basically self-delusion. As people become more empowered, their individual decision cycles matter more, which leads to less imperative for collective action. To make that happen, with a large scale, you have to force it - through mechanisms commonly used by police states. But thats a backwards step. Obviously, the better plan is to move forward. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60220 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60220 Sun, 20 May 2007 02:39:18 -0600 I guess I'm a bit of a motard because I can't make the trackback work... [No, it's an MT problem, probably. We're still (very slowly) tinkering in the back-office of the blog. -the Armorer] http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60219 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60219 Sat, 19 May 2007 23:54:38 -0600 http://cookiecrumbexpress.com/blog/2007/05/19/commandants-letter-to-retirees/#respond ]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60218 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60218 Sat, 19 May 2007 22:20:10 -0600 America's White Table]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60217 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60217 Sat, 19 May 2007 20:59:55 -0600 precisely a function of our evolution into a modern 'enlightened' democracy. This indicates to me that he understands the problem very well. We are getting bogged down in our relatively greater 'number of decision cycles', whereas the enemy we face has far fewer layers to contend with. Shloky, on the otter heiny, made very little sense.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60212 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60212 Sat, 19 May 2007 13:28:29 -0600 Thanks for the link John, but in the interests of The Children(tm) might want to toss a language warning up there :) I'd hate for folks to come away shocked from my usually more restrained self ;) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60206 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60206 Sat, 19 May 2007 09:06:20 -0600 The PDA, Tigerhawk, and Shloky things (well, really not so much Shloky as Robb) are all very interesting - well done, Ry. I actually find myself agreeing with much that is in the PDA piece, though I think the author has some glaring gaps/assumptions - such as the level of participation from civilian agencies in nation-building operations. If we think we're going to play the New Model British Empire this century, we need to do some serious expansion in those civilian agencies and put them to work *now* doing things before the military gets sent in, but that requires a level of patience and across-adminstrations continuity that isn't likely in this polity. I've been working a post similar to Tigerhawk's - I may not bother with it now. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60205 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60205 Sat, 19 May 2007 08:03:34 -0600 I'm fairly sure I don't understand war. I am blessed that my only contact with it has been through books. But I don't understand Shloky, either, so maybe it's just me. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60201 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/05/hi_fires_19_may.html#comment-60201 Sat, 19 May 2007 06:17:41 -0600