Comments for Surely, the Righteous do walk among us. We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2007 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:52:05 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2008 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification Surely, the Righteous do walk among us. Ladies and Gentlemen, I say to you, "Professor Liviu Librescu" Surely a Righteous Man. I see there *was* at least one sheepdog at Virginia Tech yesterday.. Instructive who it was, too. As Jews worldwide honored on Monday the memory of those who were murdered in the Holocaust, a 75-year-old survivor sacrificed his life to save his students in Monday's shooting at Virginia Tech College that left 32 dead and over two dozen wounded. Professor Liviu Librescu, 76, threw himself in front of the shooter, who had attempted to enter his classroom. The Israeli mechanics and engineering lecturer was shot to... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html Tue, 17 Apr 2007 08:02:27 -0600 Comment from htom on 2007-04-18 I believe that that quote is actually George Orwell, paraphrasing Louis Fischer's paraphrasing of Gandhi. If you read Fischer's bio of Gandhi, and Gandhi's autobiography, it's like meeting two different people. A Bobby Burns with a twist vs a shot of Laphroig. Not that Gandhi was opposed to suicide in furtherance of goals. His ideals were "not of this world", the body could be discarded without damage to the soul. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59146 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59146 Wed, 18 Apr 2007 19:09:55 -0600 Comment from Masked Menace© on 2007-04-18 Sorry, I wasn't being clear. That comment wasn't directed to htom, but to Gandhi. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59140 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59140 Wed, 18 Apr 2007 17:49:33 -0600 Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-04-18 MM, mind the rulez, please. Your posting of Gandhi's bit to the Jews of Europe is what I had in mind when I wrote the post. It's all good, and it's rarely clean - and when you have enough of a paper trail (damn Google!) you find it's hard to cover all the bases, too, and that things change over time. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59134 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59134 Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:48:26 -0600 Comment from Masked Menace on 2007-04-18 OK, posted while htom was posting. So at least he's consistent. Stupid, but consistent. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59124 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59124 Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:50:30 -0600 Comment from Masked Menace on 2007-04-18 self-defense philosophies.
During World War II, Gandhi penned an open letter to the British people, urging them to surrender to the Nazis. Later, when the extent of the holocaust was known, he criticized Jews who had tried to escape or fight for their lives as they did in Warsaw and Treblinka. “The Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife,” he said. “They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.” “Collective suicide,” he told his biographer, “would have been heroism.”
Emphasis added.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59122 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59122 Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:43:39 -0600 Comment from htom on 2007-04-18 All Men Are Brothers is available on-line, you can probably pick up a used copy for a buck or three. Trying to understand Gandhi's teachings by reading other's opinions and distortions of his writings is folly. I especially recommend the chapter "Ahisma, the way of non-violence". "The people of a village near Bettia told me that they had run away whilst the police were looting their houses and molesting their womenfolk. When they said that they had run away because I had told them to be non-violent, I hung my head in shame. I assured them that such was not the meaning of my non-violence. I expected them to intercept the mightiest power that might be in the act of harming those who were under their protection, and draw without retaliation all harm upon their own heads even to the point of death, but never to run away from the storm centre. It was manly enough to defend one's property, honour, or religion at the point of the sword. It was manlier and nobler to defend them without seeking to injure the wrongdoer. But it was unmanly, unnatural and dishonorable to forsake the post of duty and, in order to save one's skin, to leave property, honour or religion to the mercy of the wrong-doer. I could see my way of delivering ahimsa to those who knew how to die, not to those who were afraid of death. (SB, 155-56)"]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59120 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59120 Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:42:11 -0600 Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-04-18 Htom - disagreeing with the host is always okay, especially if you're polite about it. So is educating the host. Sometimes it even takes. I'm assuming that is a Gandhi quote in your comment, correct? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59111 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59111 Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:05:00 -0600 Comment from htom on 2007-04-18 I'm sorry, John, you are the host but I must disagree with you. Gandhi would have none of this "go passively to your death" nonsense. That's a huge distortion of his preachings on non-violence. "Self-defence by Violence I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by non-violently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully. The strength to kill is not essential for self-defence; one ought to have the strength to die. When a man is fully ready to die, he will not even desire to offer violence. Indeed, I may put it down as a self-evident proposition that the desire to kill is in inverse proportion to the desire to die. And history is replete with instances of men who, by dying with courage and compassion on their lips, converted the hearts of their violent opponents. Nonviolence cannot be taught to a person who fears to die and has no power of resistance. A helpless mouse is not nonviolent because he is always eaten by pussy. He would gladly eat the murderess if he could, but he ever tries to flee from her. We do not call him a coward, because he is made by nature to behave no better than he does. But a man who, when faced by danger, behaves like a mouse, is rightly called a coward. He harbors violence and hatred in his heart and would kill his enemy if he could without hurting himself. He is a stranger to nonviolence. All sermonizing on it will be lost on him. Bravery is foreign to his nature. Before he can understand nonviolence, he has to be taught to stand his ground and even suffer death, in the attempt to defend himself against the aggressor who bids fair to overwhelm him. To do otherwise would be to confirm his cowardice and take him further away from nonviolence. Whilst I may not actually help anyone to retaliate, I must not let a coward seek shelter behind nonviolence so-called. Not knowing the stuff of which nonviolence is made, many have honestly believed that running away from danger every time was a virtue compared to offering resistance, especially when it was fraught with danger to one's life. As a teacher of nonviolence I must, so far as it is possible for me, guard against such an unmanly belief. Self-defence....is the only honourable course where there is unreadiness for self-immolation. Though violence is not lawful, when it is offered in self-defence or for the defence of the defenceless, it is an act of bravery far better than cowardly submission. The latter befits neither man nor woman. Under violence, there are many stages and varieties of bravery. Every man must judge this for himself. No other person can or has the right." http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59110 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59110 Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:59:47 -0600 Comment from MajMike on 2007-04-18 the underlying purpose of being a sheepdog is to permit the sheep to continue to remain sheep, to permit them to retain their innocent lamb-ishness, to frolic and gambol while they thrive and lead productive lives. sheep are the producers of the goods and services that provide for the economy of the farm, they are the essence of a thriving farm, and the most precious of that Great Farmer's beasties. nothing you have said is a denigration of sheep, just an acknowledgement of the perpetual need for sheepdogs until all wolves no longer exist. it's an analogy, and like all things made from our hands, imperfect. i'm with you John, no apologies needed. Woof! http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59099 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59099 Wed, 18 Apr 2007 08:15:08 -0600 Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-04-17 Stormy - in a very real sense, I don't care what he would have thought. I was honoring him in *my* way. Through *my* lens. I am a sheepdog. I spent the bulk of my adult life protecting the sheep. So they could be sheep, in a general sense. Nonetheless, there is a time when the sheepdog needs to arise, unbeknownst. To themselves, or others. There is evidence of that, coming out now. There were sheepdogs, and proto-sheepdogs. It's entirely possible that Dr. Librescu, when a child, during the Holocaust, was... a sheep. When next presented with evil, he became a sheepdog. You, clearly, do not understand me. Well and good. If you go passively to your death, however noble Mahatma Gandhi may have found that, you are a sheep. If you fight, as Ry said, quoting the poet, you do not go gently into that night, then you, in my world, are a sheepdog. I honor the sheepdogs. I love the sheep. For without the sheep, in a grand, philosophical sense, there is no need for the sheepdog. Just as, without the wolves, there is no need for sheepdogs. Wolves exist. Sheepdogs exist. Society needs to produce sheepdogs, to counter the wolves, that arise from many sources. When Bull Simons, preparing the commandoes for the rescue attempt that ended in disaster at Desert One, told them, after a fashion - "I expect you may kill some hostages, because they will, when you arise, rise up to help - they will be doing what warriors do. Fight." He was referring to the military and ex-military amongst the hostages during the Iranian Hostage Crisis. He fully expected they would answer the sound of the bugle. Such are the sheepdogs. As I said, I'm sorry you are offended. But I don't apologize for my view. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59083 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59083 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:02:58 -0600 Comment from FbL on 2007-04-17 displayed un-sheep-like qualities.]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59082 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59082 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:02:11 -0600 Comment from FbL on 2007-04-17 Unless my understanding of the sheepdog/sheep dichotomy is mistaken, the designation of sheep is not a description of mindlessness or stupidity as the word is often used. Rather, it refers to the idea that they are placid and unaware of the dangers that lurk at the edge of the flock; they are concerned with simply living day-to-day. This is in contrast to the sheepdog who is constantly aware of the wolves prowling at the edges and is mentally and physically prepared to do what must be done to protect his sheep. It may have a certain edge to it, but I classify myself as a sheep because I don't have the skill or will to do most things that woukd fall under "sheepdog." http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59080 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59080 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:48:27 -0600 Comment from Cricket on 2007-04-17 I think he would have thought it appropriate. He survived a horror that was and is unspeakable. Living in this country, he would see the blessing of a free society where there literally was freedom from fear. Yes we have a volunteer military to keep it that way, but we also have law enforcement to help as well. We do not have the problems of other so called free societies because we believe in living correct principles and governing ourselves accordingly. To the average student, this was an act unthinkable and unbelievable. It happened to other people, not to them. So yes, sheep is appropriate. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59079 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59079 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:30:36 -0600 Comment from Stormy Dragon on 2007-04-17 One wonders what Dr. Librescu would have thought of your characterization of the students he died trying to save as mere sheep. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59078 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59078 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:04:24 -0600 Comment from ry on 2007-04-17 One who refused to go quietly into the Night. One who raged against the dying of the Light. I'm glad he was there. I'm glad he lived, for his life carries meaning beyond his days and beyond this act of sacrifice. We are greatful for such a man. We trully are. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59077 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59077 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 19:19:55 -0600 Comment from LindaSoG on 2007-04-17 Thank you John, for doing honor to Professor Liviu Librescu, who guarded his students and made the ultimate sacrifice. I am sure the Professor met many "sheep" during his time in the camps, so many allowed themselves to lead to the slaughter, never believing what their hearts and minds told them. Such a thing changes how you view the world. We will never know what drove the killer, but we do know what drove Professor Liviu Librescu, love of life, remember that Jews believe that to save one life is to save all lives. This massacre, like so may others, happened in a place where no guns are allowed, so the only weapon was in the hands of the killer. This situation desperately needed more guns. I mourn the lives lost, I mourn the loss of Professor Librescu. If I may... His resting place shall be in the Garden of Eden. Therefore, the Master of mercy will care for him under the protection of His wings for all time. And bind his soul in the bond of everlasting life. God is his inheritance and he will rest in peace and let us say Amen. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59076 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59076 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:05:19 -0600 Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-04-17 Y'know, I thought about that when I posted it. And I've been gathering bits and pieces of stories where they weren't all sheep. And I left that door open, in order, among other things, to get people to send me the links that showed otherwise. Because this is a blog, and I can link and relink as I wish to build the threads that show how the stories evolved. I'm sorry you were offended, but I stand by what I said. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59074 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59074 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:45:12 -0600 Comment from Stormy Dragon on 2007-04-17 >If you suffered a loss, this space is available >to memorialize the fallen. Yes, and what better way to memorialize them than a post calling them all sheep. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59073 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59073 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:33:51 -0600 Comment from Cricket on 2007-04-17 Barb, I believe you are right. I could no more prevent my sons from making life miserable for anyone who had the gall to pick on one of their siblings than I could predict interest rates. And then I realized that Great Truth. Don't get mad, get even and don't get caught. *whistling off to organize the schoolroom...again* http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59071 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59071 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:26:48 -0600 Comment from Barb on 2007-04-17 I honor Professor Librescu for his life and his sacrifice, and my heart is sad for the families of all of the victims, and the suffering of the victims themselves. As to Sheepdogs requiring training, I will say that the state of mind must be present first, or the training will not help or be useful. And the negative training (go along, don't resist, guns are bad, etc.) received as youngsters sometimes prevents the development of the Sheepdog mentality, I fear. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59041 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59041 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:52:31 -0600 Comment from Albany Rifles on 2007-04-17 1. Have several friends with sons and daughters at VT to include my nexy door neighbor and 2 former members of my Scout troop. Heard most were okay; stil lunsure on a couple. 2. As for sheep vs sheepdog mentality. I would say let us give this a rest until the full story comes out. Here in the local Richmond media we have heard about 2 students who held the door shut of one classrom to keep the gunman from entering. Also heard of another student who found a small office and moved his fellow classmates into it to safety. I would also say that there is a considerable Corps of Cadets at VT...want to hear if any cadets/midshipmen were in the midst of this. And remember, to become a sheepdog you usually have to have some training first. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59032 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59032 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:47:17 -0600 Comment from MajMike on 2007-04-17 ..surely there will be a place at the table for the good Professor anytime he wishes to stop by at Fiddler's Green. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59029 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59029 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 08:37:13 -0600 Comment from Cricket on 2007-04-17 With the passing of years, we are losing a valiant generation; those who survived and stood up to Hitler and never lost faith. His example of selflessness is a reminder to us all to NOT give in to evil. My heart is sore for the anguish of the parents and their lives changing; but while weeping may endure for a night, joy does come in the morning. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59026 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59026 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 08:29:54 -0600 Comment from Erin on 2007-04-17 My heart goes out to his family.All of the people who were affected by this tragedy Please know you are in my prayers with love.God Bless All Of You. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59023 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/04/surely_the_righ.html#comment-59023 Tue, 17 Apr 2007 08:23:20 -0600