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ry Has some thoughts on the place of aggressiveness and violence in Society

April 22, 2007 | | Comments (13)

A buddy of mine passed this along. I’d said something, long winded and tortured as usual, and he thought these words from another friend of his would help me sort my own thoughts out.

BTW, a WOC is Warrant Officer Candidate....[edited]

If you remember during our training in WOC school we were told that we may get {edited}assignments such as leading convoys, we were taught what to do in case of a near ambush and far ambush. I paid very close attention to this because I knew with my 'luck' I would get such an assignment. We were taught that in a "near ambush" you attack the people ambushing you by charging them. "Luckily" I never receive such an assignment.

A bunch of my younger sons basketball friends were over the house last night and I asked them what they thought of the VT situation.

They all are college basketball players so they are aggressive JOCKS with NO military training however they all asked the same questions.

Why didn't the students at VT try to charge the crazy shooter once he had them trapped in the classroom?

They couldn't run anywhere and he couldn't shoot them all at once and they should have rushed him to get to him and try to disarm him rather than try to hide behind 'wooden' desk to stop the bullets. They all said they would rather die trying to fight than hiding behind desks.

It was reported that the crazy killer committed suicide when a six foot 200 lb student charged him got within 5 ft of him; then he shoot himself in the head before the student could reach him.

Then one of these young men said something very profound.

"Maybe all college students should have to take two years of ROTC in order to graduate, and then they wouldn't be wimps when confronted with tough situations."

They also said to notice he didn't go to a building where the football, basketball, or wrestling players take classes because he knew if he tried to shoot them he would only get a few before the rest of them would rush him and kicked his ass, so he went where he knew the students were timid and non-aggressive. Mandatory ROTC would instill some self-defense training in all students.

I think it is good to see these young men are beginning to see the value of military training.”

It hits at something I think is very true. Violence and aggressive behavior have a place in society, beyond just the sports field or the court room, and is truly underappreciated and unfairly demonized.

We became so concerned with over-aggressiveness and misuse of violence that we did something down right Shakespearian tragic in being so absolutist in condemnation. I really think we have collectively moved, whether from ignorance or wishful thinking, stupidly by simply declaring there being no place for violence or weapons in society. We took what looked to be an easy road, based more on hope than reason it would seem, in saying that violence and aggression has no place rather than doing the hard, hard work of teaching ourselves and our children the proper contexts for it.
--ry

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13 Comments

By John of Argghhh! on April 22, 2007 9:38 AM
Whose this "we" you mention? Not many people here. Elites, mebbe. But not most of the people I hand with, military, ex-military, or civilian. Therein lies part of the problem. The societal disconnects.
 
By Cricket on April 22, 2007 9:55 AM
Before the Engineer went into the Army, he lettered for four years in wrestling in high school. He said the same thing: Rush the perp. Interesting that when confronted head on with a man that outweighed him by prolly 60 pounds or more, he gave up and shot himself, when he could have shot the defender. Seems like his flight mode was triggered or he wasn't gonna be taken alive. Good for the guy who rushed him and put a stop to the slaughter. And the Engineer refused to try out for the Army's wrestling team. His excuse was that he was 'older' than he was at 18...he was all of 23!!!!!! Sigh.
 
By Geo(AeroEng) on April 22, 2007 11:30 AM
Oddly, in my college, the engineering department will have the most agressive people, many of whom are from various sports teams and who tend to think in terms of defense. Know where the exits are, know what you can use for a weapon, etc. I'm not so sure on mandatory ROTC. For some people you can't insert agression or will to survive, having it beaten out of them since they were young. Making it more open to help train the other sheepdogs on campus would help though.
 
By Dave Bell on April 22, 2007 1:43 PM
I don't think it's just about being aggressive. What also makes those jocks different from the average guy is that they're part of a team. It's not one guy rushing the gunman, alone. Which may well count as a dumb move. And lets be thankful that we didn't have to make that sort of decision. Talk is easy.
 
By Joyce Williamson on April 22, 2007 1:45 PM
More sparta, less athens (Varifrank wrote) I say this with total respect towards the students, faculty and family of Virginia Tech and I share in their loss. This is not a judgement of their actions in the massacre, they are victims and not to be judged one way or the other. This particular post is more towards the rest of you who might someday be in this situation. I fear that unless we change some basic things about our culture, we will see more of these. It seems to me that 'self defense' is not considered an option in polite society. It is time we learned (or relearned) the need to sometimes be a little more "sparta" and a little less "athens". Here are a few guidlines to consider: 1. Do not wait for the police or the authorities to tell you what is going on. If you hear gunshots, assume that it is time for you to take action. Every moment you delay stopping the madman ensures that more innocent people will die. 2. Do not assume that if you just lay there and do nothing that you will live. Assume that if you just lay there, that you or someone else will surely die. 3. Do not assume that you can reason with the madman, if you must assume anything at all, assume that you must do everything possible to ensure your survival, even if it means engaging in violence. 4. If you can run away from the problem, then do so. If you cannot run away, prepare to defend yourself. If you can defend yourself, find someone else who can't and help defend them. The concept of 'safety in numbers' applies to humans as well. 5. If you find protecting your own safety while leaving others to be killed to be a reprehensible idea then prepare to defend them from the madman. So, how can you defend yourself from a madman armed with a gun? - throw chairs. - Throw books, bookbags, paper, pens, paint. - Find the fire extinguisher, aim towards the attacker and fire, the throw the empty device at the madman. - Find the fire hose and hydrant. aim the stream towards the attacker. - Run towards attacker en masse, armed with pens and pencils, sticks, stones whatever is at hand. Some of you will surely die in the process, but one of you is likely to maim the madman and save lives. - If the attacker tells you to line up against the wall, refuse. Do not cooperate with madmen. The more he deals with you and your refusal to cooperate, the more likely that others are to escape. Dont worry about possibly making him angry, he is already irrational and beyond reasoning. - If you have a camera with a flash, use it. blind the attacker with whatever means you have at hand. - Improvise. - Throw hot coffee or any other burning substance on the individual. feel free to throw the coffee pot as well, throw glasses, knives, forks, baseball bats, helmets, pottery, car parts, loose laying lumber plumbing fixtures at the madman. - Got any pepper spray handy? Now would be a good time to find out if it works or not. - Make noise. distract. block pathways and doors. turn out the lights, impede their progress in any way possible. - Do not consider the feelings of the madman in your acts, his goal is to kill you, your goal is to stop the killing by any means necessary. If you can disrupt Ann Coulter when she comes to campus or the ROTC when they recruit on campus, you can stop or disrupt a madman when he comes to kill you and your classmates.
 
By John of Argghhh! on April 22, 2007 4:48 PM
Okay, for Joyce's edification - how many combat vets here? Raise your hand... Combat arms vets who just didn't happen to have their enlistments take them in harms way? Raise your hand... All other military who graduated basic? Cops? Firemen? Non-military/First Responder Sheepdogs? I think that for the *bulk* of the crowd that hangs out here, that was a cup of d-uh. However - if you're one of the ones who've never even thought about things like this - well, there's some sheepdog thinking for you.
 
By bad cat robot on April 22, 2007 5:21 PM
When I am Evil Overlord, nobody gets to graduate high school without taking a self-defense course (I'll let it be a PE credit, if I'm feeling generous). The way they water down regular PE sports these days to remove anything that could cause hurt feelings I don't think they would be of any use. And if they don't pass the self-defense course they have to sign a waiver that they understand Law Enforcement Officials are not telepathic, omnipresent, or omnipotent and so may not be able to respond in time to save them.
 
By BillT on April 23, 2007 12:04 AM
In light of what Joyce had to say: Have you ever watched the standard WWII film clip of prisoners running to take their places in an SS execution ditch? Ever wonder why they were in such a hurry to obey, knowing it meant their deaths? It's simple. They were told they would be immediately shot if they didn't. They wanted to live just a few seconds more and by obeying, they delayed the inevitable by -- six seconds...
 
By ry on April 23, 2007 1:01 AM
"some people you can't insert agression or will to survive, having it beaten out of them since they were young." Which is what I'm complaining about. We, the societal collective(smart alec Armorer, that's the 'we'), have made violence and aggression a no-no in all situations. Football players are trogs and those who claim that being able to handle themselves are just perpetuators of 'The Patriarchy', ain't that something we hear a lot of(not so much since I moved to a Big-10 school, but I still hear it). We've taken what we thought was a short cut by trying to ban the bahvior instead of learning how to deal with the wide range of uncomfortable situations. Yeah, I watched that segment on CNN too Joyce.
 
By Geo(AeroEng) on April 23, 2007 2:03 AM
Ry, I totally agree with you, that, and proper team play have been beaten out of most of us. Some, like me, fail to submit. I enjoy both Fencing and Krav Maga. To some in my "home state", both are overly violent. As for the team spirit, I think we lack, as a whole, a "band of brothers" mentality among Americans, partially because of the sheep/sheepdog separation. There is that fear in all of us, of being that lone sheepdog and "throwing our life away." Many manage to overcome that. I pray that if I am faced in a similar situation, that I will. Having a tight group of friends, most of whom I share classes with, helps with that moment of courage. I charge, they charge. I know they'll be there. Perhaps it is a lost sense of community. John (if I may use the familiar), some other than those listed have though of such things at a college campus. I live on one in the relativly more dangerous cities in America (though I love this city, honestly). Between the sports gear (18 lbs shot, fencing foils (they are sharp when broken) and other make shifts, we've thought long and hard about defending our temporary home. Same thing on campus, whether it be ourselves or other classmates. This is not to say that I could have done better if it was my engineering building hit that day. I only hope that I've prepared myself enough.
 
By Nate on April 23, 2007 8:03 AM
Remember that almost all current college kids have been public school students their entire schooling life. And one of the primary rules of modern school life is, "no fighting." Fighting on the playground has become grounds for expulsion, no matter the reason or who starts it or who is defending themselves. Those kids have been taught to negotiate and deflect and run away since they were in kindergarten. Its no wonder they act like sheep.
 
By ry on April 23, 2007 11:37 PM
Sometimes I wish i was Bill Engval.
 
By Justthisguy on April 24, 2007 4:06 PM
I betcha some of us "socially awkward visual thinkers" wouldn't do too badly, either. We bite, y'know. (And I did, in the one or two serious fights I've had in my life. No conscious thought at all, when socked I just got all nasty. Didn't win, but other fella did not leave the venue unmarked.
 
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