Comments for H&I* Fires, 23 APR 2007

H&I* Fires, 23 APR 2007

2007-04-24T04:42:50Z

Open post for those with something to share, updated through the day. New, complete posts come in below this one. Note: If trackbacking, please acknowledge this post in your post. That's only polite.

You're advertising here, we should get an ad at your place...

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Someone wants to name a DDG Robert Heinlein? Wow. Why not? (h/t to Shloky).

The h/t also brings me to something else over at Kent’s Imperative: the issue of the hat tip in the professional world. Seeing the number of comments over at Imperative I’m inclined to believe that the guy is not read enough.
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ArmchairGeneralist has a book review up.
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Bruce Schneir has a post about something I find ominous. But it shouldn’t surprise me. Dirty tricks to move contraband all the dang time in the shipping industry exist and make 100% search of cargo a joke in terms of security. It really shouldn’t surprise me, but it does.
--ry
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Calling all WWI Vets: the VA would like to know if there are any still out there.

You've always got to hold out hope that there are more, but they're very old now," VFW spokesman Joe Davis said. The four known surviving World War I veterans are John Babcock, 102, Puget Sound, Wash.; Frank Buckles, 106, Charles Town, W.Va.; Russell Coffey, 108, North Baltimore, Ohio; and Harry Landis, 107, Sun City Center, Fla. Mr. Babcock is an American who served in the Canadian army. The other three survivors were in the U.S. Army. [snip] About 4.7 million men and women served in the U.S. armed forces during World War I. About 53,000 died in combat, with another 204,000 wounded.

Coming down from the Ivory Tower and getting their hands dirty in Kurdistan.

Sympathy for the Devil
-Kat
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A tip for surviving gun-free zones in Academia
-Bad Cat Robot

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Oooo! BCR found her login data! Setting aside that - Fuzzybear Lioness wants you to know about the latest version of a MOAB - the MOABS, coming soon, to a Milblogger Conference near you. -the Armorer

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]]> *A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

*Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The ~~UAVs~~ (oops, can't call 'em UAVs anymore - they're now Unmanned Aerial Systems... some Colonel got his Legion of Merit for that change...), er, um UAS's we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".

Comment from Maggie on 2007-04-24

2007-04-24T22:47:37Z

Geo - If you want to hear my tone....call me, lol. Inflection? That's silly, it's a snotty Boston accent. The Navy Times printed a letter on this subject.

Name a destroyer after novelist Robert Heinlein? Are you kidding? Naval tradition holds that destroyers are named for heroes [“Sci-fi destroyer,” Frontlines, April 9]. There are far too many heroes in our naval history who go unnoticed and forgotten. For example, [there is] Cmdr. Ernest E. Evans, a 1931 Naval Academy graduate posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor for actions taken while in command of the destroyer Johnston in the Battle of Samar, during the Battle of Leyte Gulf, on Oct. 25, 1944. For almost two hours, Evans and his crew relentlessly attacked the Japanese force interceding for task force Taffy 3's six aircraft carriers. While inflicting heavy damage upon various Japanese ships and crippling the heavy cruiser Kumano, the Johnston finally succumbed to naval gunfire and sunk with 184 of her crew, including Evans. It was Evans' inspiring and steadfast leadership in the face of a no-win scenario that was instrumental in writing one of the most glorious chapters in our naval history. One need look no further that Evans when one seeks to define honor, courage and commitment. Evans remains the finest of our “Tin Can” captains and the greatest of my naval heroes. Name a library for Heinlein. Name a destroyer for Evans. IT1(SW/AW) Joseph M. Wert Pearl City, Hawaii

I am wholeheartedly behind that one. If you don't know who Cmdr. Ernest E. Evans is....read "Sea of Thunder" by Evan Thomas.

Comment from Geo(AeroEng) on 2007-04-24

2007-04-24T21:10:11Z

Maggie: I did, inflection, tone, and general definiton of exact wording are hard to get through on the interweb. Good to know your intent. I may read too deeply sometimes. I would like to see him and others honored, period (and each in a way respecting why they are to be honored). As I stated over at B5, modifying a phrase from a play "Sorry is the land that rejects its heroes."

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-04-24

2007-04-24T17:41:23Z

Geo, Oldloadr - there's a *reason* Maggie is quoted in the right sidebar...

Comment from Maggie on 2007-04-24

2007-04-24T16:35:03Z

Geo - If you read me carefully (and you should!), you will see I am not putting him down. Oldloadr - I *am* tough.

Comment from Oldloadr on 2007-04-24

2007-04-24T16:26:29Z

Maggie - You sure are hanging tough on this one. No one can accuse you of cut & run. (LOL) Personally, I think if the engineering types think so highly of this guy then they should lobby for a military research facility to be named in his honor. BTW, I have read some of his stuff; I remember Stranger in a Strange Land years ago and Starship Trooper more recently. I have always liked Sci-Fi and the more militaristic and violent, the better. However, even though fiction can be used to push a social theme (Libs in Hollywood do it almost every film), and he did interweave themes that are near and dear to conservative thought in his works, that still doesn’t rice to the same standard as is seen on the MOH and Navy Cross citations (or AF Cross/DSC for that matter). Therefore, I think those individuals should be the 1st choice in the name game.

Comment from Geo(AeroEng) on 2007-04-24

2007-04-24T16:10:36Z

Ditto here, Maggie. I think RAH would have preferred something akin to that. Just didn't want to hear him put down. He's a big hero to many of us in engineer-ville.

Comment from Maggie on 2007-04-24

2007-04-24T16:06:02Z

Geo - then name a library or scholarship at Canoe U after him. Not a destroyer. I am not dismissing his accomplishments. I am saying they do not fit the criteria for this honor. I am sure he deserves many honors. Just not this one.

Comment from Geo(AeroEng) on 2007-04-24

2007-04-24T15:36:42Z

Maggie: I would recommend reading his work. Start with "Starship Troopers," then move on to "Stranger in a Strange Land," with "For Us, The Living," as a follow up. I'd also reccommend the "Expanded Universe" for great discussions of freedoms, nuclear weapons, the right to bear arms, and other fine things. Quite honestly, there is a fuss about "what he did" without knowing about the man. Dismissing him out of hand is just as reckless as allowing the USS Maya Angelou (no disrespect to her, as she's been a great supporter of engineering works). As for "contributed greatly to maintaining democracy in the world" as a criteria. Mr. Heinlien did that through his writing. He inspired generations not only into space, but into the military. There is a severe reason that "Starship Troopers" is on the required reading list for every US military academy.

Comment from BillT on 2007-04-24

2007-04-24T14:47:40Z

None of those are destroyers. Dunno about that. Jimmeh Err-uhl did a spectacular job of destroying our GNP for four years in a row. And you can't have a Desert Debacle without a DD...

Comment from Maggie on 2007-04-24

2007-04-24T14:21:08Z

I didn't create the criteria. The criteria quoted in my first comment is Navy policy. Every one of those destroyers is named for someone who died in combat, was valiant in combat, or contributed greatly to maintaining democracy in the world. While Mr. Heinlein may have been a great author (and if I haven't been clear, I have not read anything he has written), I don't see him meeting those criteria. My point is not that he did not contribute something very worthwile. My point is that this is not the proper way to honor it. This honor should be reserved for those it is reserved for. I don't see that as "fluid" or "selective". My point about the Sullivans was that it represented a HUGE sacrifice, unlike what your family and mine experienced. BTW, I just noticed J.M. Heinrichs' comment. None of those are destroyers.

Comment from WereKitten on 2007-04-24

2007-04-24T14:02:43Z

Maggie... AMEN! Andre... a FERRET? A yummy ferret, aka: polish roadkill. gee. thanks.

Comment from Murray on 2007-04-24

2007-04-24T13:27:31Z

Maggie you haven't presented anything that changes the matter as I presented it. You are however willfully dismissing Bob's great contributions to the military through his writing. In my great grandfathers generation 8 served (ALL of them) in my grandfathers generation five served (ALL of them), in my fathers generation one severed (ALL of them) in my generation served (ALL of us). None of us were valiant enough to get dead doing it although four did fight in Gallipoli and dodged the 60% casualty odds. We think of it as being good soldiers. Not sure what that has to do with naming ships. Unfortunately we have a really really small navy anyway and the only thing named after us is in fact us. Would you like my father to give back his MBE because he was ostensibly serving in "peace time"? Your benchmark for ship naming seems to be rather fluid and somewhat selective.

Comment from Maggie on 2007-04-24

2007-04-24T12:36:52Z

Murray - The Sullivan's is named in honor of two things. The brothers sticking together and the overwhelming sacrifice of one family. All five brothers were lost. In my grandfather's family seven of nine siblings served but only two were lost. Heinlein served a few years in a peacetime Navy, the Sullivans were lost in the Battle of Guadalcanal.......a combatant ship named for men who gave their lives in ......combat.

Comment from Casey Tompkins on 2007-04-24

2007-04-24T08:11:35Z

Many folks credit Heinlein with nearly single-handedly inspiring the space program via his early work. In fact Larry Niven even wrote a tounge-in-cheek short story back in 1988 (anthologized in N-Space) wherein Senator Proxmire was so determined to scuttle the space program he financed a time machine by Adam Minsky so that he could go back in time and cure RAH's tuberculosis. He reasoned that Heinlein would have then stayed in the navy, ergo, no more literature to inspire the space program. Well, the trip worked. Sort of. Proxmire killed science fiction, but something called "spec-fic" took its place. Niven even has one character speculate about ecological niches in literature. So when Apollo 21 (yeah, 21!) burned up on re-entry, there was such a fuss that the administration took the space program away from NASA, and gave it to ... the Navy. Makes sense if you think about it. This is a wonderfully different world, with a half-dozen functional space stations, solar power satellites (called "Looking Glass"), and a moon colony which is building the ships for a Mars expedition. The Andrew Minsky in the story remarks that it's a safer world, too: "Admiral Heinlein doesn't let the Soviets build spacecraft." Heh.

Comment from Murray on 2007-04-24

2007-04-24T07:23:52Z

It never pays to name a ship after a soldier. The HMNZS Charles Upham was a former container ship converted into being a "logistics" ship against the advice of every single person who had ever been in anything bigger than a row boat. It rolled like a son of a bitch and was utterly useless. Known to the crew as the "Chuck" Upham. For those of you who don't know Upham was the only man to win the VC twice for combat. Karl Urban has been tipped to play him in an upcoming film. USS "Bob" is fine. He has inspired many with his writing above and beyond simple science fiction and he was always an advocate for the military and the navy in particular in a manner that Carter is for terrorists. What particular was "distinguished" about the Sullivans? They died, thats sad, not impressive.

Comment from ry on 2007-04-23

2007-04-24T04:34:02Z

No, I didn't do it to be a rabble rouser. I simply found it interesting. That is all. I'd never heard of an effort to name anything after Heinlein. It's interesting given who he was( the Navy's jacked up history of naming things), and even more interesting given the passions surrounding it. It's simply interesting Maggs---that's the point of the H&I* you know, to find things that are interesting or comical. I don't things to cause outrage on purpose. Just 'cause it sticks in your craw doesn't mean I set out to do it. Hell, I'm surprised that something I thought very interesting and spent four days thinking about(and gaming out myself after hearing it) generated a total of three replies but this thing I didn't spend more than 4 second thought on pissed anyone off. I simply don't get the outrage. Annoyance? Si, that I can get. But outrage? Someone better check to see if there's a pea. Oh, and in case anyone mentions it, I'd oppose the USS Maya Angelou. John, I will always call it DIVAD. I do know one of the guys who made the dye molds for it. Guy with surname of Stanley. Lived around the corner from me until I was 9 and he moved out to Corona to be close to work. Crick, why? Because it's possible. like everyone else I'm always shocked at how easy to do nefarious things. It's annoying that our defense is largely based on people doing what's expected of them and on fiat instead of real measures that work. That's a scary thought to me.

Comment from Cricket on 2007-04-23

2007-04-24T02:04:58Z

The USS James T. Kirk The.most...intense.ship.ever.

Comment from Andre the Pole on 2007-04-23

2007-04-24T00:36:08Z

Oh, I am misundertandink perhaps Maggie- I thinkink your state is Machassusets... but is always nice to find constant womans! WK likink the Pole Dance but it not wot I learnink as liddle boy, sheesh alreddy- she remindink me of ferret chasink mouse round drainpipe... but yummy!

Comment from Maggie on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T22:16:47Z

No Andre, the Armorer meant what he said. The state you are talking about is constant with me so there is no point to calling attention to it. Where's WK? Can I get an amen?

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T22:16:26Z

Geo - I'd have no problem at all with a USNS, vice USS, vessel. Of course, I don't really have a problem with it anyway. The Navy can name 'em what they want. I just wish we'd named something that *worked* the "Sergeant York," rather than the flop we did name for him. On the other hand, this has been a fun thread, too!

Comment from Geo(AeroEng) on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T21:43:16Z

I would think naming a landing craft after him would be more appropriate. Or a Oceanagraphic vessel, granted that would be non-Navy.

Comment from MajMike on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T20:55:13Z

USS Heinlein is fine by me, just make it an escort for the Rodger Young.

Comment from Andre the Pole on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T19:24:13Z

Ah, nuthin' like a roused Maggie! Hah- you gettink careless, John- leavink space between 'a' and 'r'....!

Comment from fdcol63 on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T18:54:50Z

I think chronic and acute seasickness would be a problem on a "USS Hillary Clinton", with all the wobbling from port-to-starboard. LOL

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T18:30:16Z

As for other famous militant science fiction writers who are veterans... The USS David Drake, USS Jerry Pournelle, USS Joe Haldeman, USS John Ringo...

Comment from Oldloadr on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T17:24:25Z

How about the Hospital Ship, The USS Pelosi - giving aid and comfort to everybody except US service members...

Comment from kat-missouri on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T17:16:43Z

Suggested ship naming: USS Hillary Clinton - Meanest stealth ship in the Navy. ********* USS Republic of California - Permanent "Red" forces for war gaming. Is often seen practicing invading Taiwan and giving President Ahmedinajed cruises in the Persian Gulf. ************ USS Congress - Last of the screw propeler ships ******************* USS Harry Reid - the fastest surrendering ship in the fleet.

Comment from Maggie on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T17:07:45Z

Clearly Barb and John are not hanging on my every word. I addressed both the point on Churchill and Heinlein's USNA creds. You know the Churchill is special, it has beer taps. BCR & Monica make excellent points with Monica's being laugh out loud funny. Oldloadr is the only one actually on point.

Comment from Barb on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T16:30:09Z

Maggie - You should not be opposed to naming a ship after a graduate of the US Naval Academy! (Heinlein was discharged as permanently disabled in 1933, against his will, due to tuberculosis.)

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T16:17:44Z

Heh.

Comment from Monica on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T16:15:27Z

How about an oiler... those have hoses that are always spilling something somewhere?

Comment from bad cat robot on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T16:08:48Z

I could handle a USS Clinton, as long as it is a garbage scow.

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T16:06:02Z

Ah, nuthin' like a roused Maggie!

Comment from Oldloadr on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T15:55:55Z

Maggie's got a point. Plus, I know the Navy has not exhausted the list of Naval Officers/Petty Officers that have received the MOH or Navy Cross... You all know, in WWII, the Germans didn't name their U-boats, even though that was the only effective part of their Navy. Meanwhile, they named their grandest battleship Bismarck, which made it an icon too valuable to lose for propaganda reasons and therefore it was sunk while trying to make a mission while avoiding risks (oxymoron?). Naming ships after ordinary service members who, one a particular day, did something extraordinary gives a sense of history and purpose to the crew while avoiding messy political wrangling and calculations

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T15:52:00Z

Well, there *is* Mahan... and Churchill...

Comment from Maggie on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T15:50:36Z

There's going to be a USS Clinton someday, get over it.

No. I am Princess Crabby. Or to quote Blackhawk "the Empress of La Moata, she who has no equal, Princesa Malhumorada, Maggie”. No I will not get over it. Ever.

Comment from Maggie on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T15:43:21Z

It's a destroyer, not a library. You are going to compare a guy who writes books to to Jason Dunham? John Paul Jones? Edward Preble?

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T15:42:19Z

Presidents are a special category, let's just take a reality check there. There's going to be a USS Clinton someday, get over it. Heh, aside from being a Congressman, Lipscomb was also a veteran... of the Army Finance Corps... him I don't know. Stennis has the nickname of "The Father of the Modern Navy". I see nothing wrong with Stennis and Carter, and if Lipscomb is a cipher, John's observation amounts to saying "They've done it before, therefore let's do it again, this time with one of our guys..." Which, to me, is not a good argument. CDR Salamander has had some rants on the Navy naming conventions before, IIRC.

Comment from fdcol63 on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T15:40:26Z

John, I'm agnostic about it either way really, but I think RAH himself would be opposed to the idea. LOL

Comment from J.M. Heinrichs on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T15:33:34Z

1. John Stennis 2. Glennard P. Lipscomb 3. Jimmy Carter Cheers

Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T15:27:44Z

Ah, but is that worthy of naming a combatant after him? Much as I like Heinlein, I'm not in favor.

Comment from fdcol63 on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T15:13:52Z

Maggie asked: "But, pray tell, what was it that distinquished him?" Well, some of us would say that it was his body of literature ..... and the political philosophy he expressed in it, which many of us agree with.

Comment from Maggie on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T14:27:16Z

You ask why not name a DDG after Robert A. Heinlein? First let me ask you something. Is this another "Hey, let's stir up things at the Castle post!"? If yes, it's Monday morning and I'm wiped. If no, if you are serious, my answer is YGTBFKM! The current policy dictates that destroyers are named for "Distinguished USN/USMC officers & enlisted men". Now I realize that a casual reader might say "But the named a ship after Paul Smith and he wasn't USN/USMC." No nitwit, but he was MOH and it wasn't a destroyer it was LCS. Some might point out the USS Winston Churchill, but I would say he qualified as "distinquished" and he was 1st Lord of the Admiralty during WW1 and his mother was American and besides we have to keep that RN officer somewhere, don't we? And I realize that some would point out that Heinlein was USNA & was discharged as an LT. But, pray tell, what was it that distinquished him? Inventing the waterbed? Cut the crap. It was painful enough to see that sub named after Carter.

Comment from Cricket on 2007-04-23

2007-04-23T13:15:24Z

What do you find ominous about it? The fact that it was a prank or the fact that it was proven to be a hoax? IOW, it didn't happen. FWIW, I agree with you about security being a joke in most instances. Is this why profiling important?