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Guest Post by Denizen Ry.

By The Armorer on April 10, 2007 | | Comments (31)

It seems I owe Mr. BullNav and the Guys over at OPFOR something of a partial apology. Some of us Normals are at the Freakin’ Mall. There’s a war on, a global and multi-generational campaign in which men and women have pledged everything to win. And some of my fellow civilians are taking a SINGING CONTEST and its outcome more seriously than they do the day-to-day or month-to-month outcomes of the war, or the condition of the Service people fighting this Long War.

Yeah. I’m an idiot. An idiot for sticking up for my fellow civilians by saying that we weren’t being frivolous and silly; but doing what people always did during war in living day-to-day as my mother did during WW2, Korea, and Vietnam in getting married, dating, having kids, buying cars and houses, normal everyday stuff that has to happen when it happens or there’s no point for the OPFOR crew to wear the Colors. I was wrong as this stuff singing contest stuff and the reaction to it is utterly frivolous and stuuuuped. Sorry. No more flak from gollum on that count

ry

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31 Comments

By BloodSpite on April 10, 2007 7:23 AM
Lately I'm seeing an undercurrent that I don't like. That of the Hard Right. Doing precisely what, in my opinion anyway, we criticize the Hard left for. You don't win support for your cause by bashing the people you need the support of. If the "Normals" ( I have to say I really hate that term) are at the mall...I view it as good. That's what they are supposed to do. They are supposed to live normal lives. They are supposed to be enjoying freedoms, they are supposed to be with the kids at the park. This is not World War 3. This is mismanagement by administrative powers and has little to do with the general populace. If the citizenry of this great country are not allowed to live healthy, peaceful, freedom enriched lives, then what for a soldier die? I for one applaud the Mall goer's Because as long as you feel safe enough to do so, then the US Military has succeeded in the largest goal which is to defend it's citizenry from all opponents foreign and domestic. I think the guys at Op For need a Valium and a Nap.
 
By John of Argghhh! on April 10, 2007 8:16 AM
I'm pretty much with you on this Bloodspite. I always felt my job was to create the conditions, absent "Warsaw Pact in the Fulda Gap" level of intensity, where mall going was a good idea. Obviously, in some aspects, there is a downside. That said, it's the administration's job, to craft the message so that it gets across. Of course, it helps if the major medium for distribution of the message *agrees* with it. It's hard to swim against the tide. That said, there's been some interesting cracks in the MSM of late. I'm not sure if it's genuine concern with Speaker Pelosi et.al's ham-handed diplomacy and micromanagement of the war, or simply concern that it damages "progressive" prospects in the next election cycle. But the editorializing in the MSM, while not supportive of the President, has not been universally supportive of the Democrat leadership, either. And that's all-in-all a plus, methinks. Secondly, we've had the "normals" discussion. Ry being one himself, he staked his position that he would continue to use it, as he felt it conveyed his feelings on the subject accurately. I, being the weak squish that I am, choose to forgo it (though it may slip out since my filters are imperfect).
 
By BloodSpite on April 10, 2007 8:31 AM
No harm no foul. Lots of folks use terms that make my spine cringe thats just one of them. (Mostly because no one, by any stretch of the imagination is normal...but without getting all Freudian I'll let it go :) ) I agree, otherwise. I have no problem with rallying behind the leadership, whether it's Dem or Rep. As long as there are cat fights the interests of the public are not served, in my book. Therefor some progress being better than no progress I am heartened to see folks moving forward, haphazardly though it may be (and even I poked fun of Pelosi going to Syria) It's always been my take that the citizenry should lead a normal life. They should have fun, they should live and be happy, free and with out sounding cliche'd pursue the right of happiness. Anything less than that and as a former soldier I would have felt I failed. Forget rescuing children from building, (not that there is nothing to be said for that) forget singlehandedly holding off 120 men, to me the true devotion of courage is being willing to do something that guarantee's the right for everyone else to live as if life goes on. To demand the populace to surrender those rights for say, me or another to go kill people to defend those rights to me is hypocrisy and a paradox. And I don't know many folks who'll fight for that, or at least I wouldn't.
 
By AFSister on April 10, 2007 8:49 AM
Without the mall-goers, we look like a nation of pussies waiting for the next attack, to afraid to leave our homes. I'm not a pussy. I guess you could say I'm a PROUD mall-goer. I will not be intimidated into hiding out in my home or office. Our military sacrifices a hell of a lot to secure the freedoms we enjoy back home- because they WANT us to have those freedoms. If we ignore that, and hole up, we're basically saying that we have no faith in our military's ability to protect us. I will not hide my head in the sand either- we all have a duty to keep informed of what is going on in the world. I think OpFor's problem with mall-goers is that they assume mall-goers are ignorant about the war and our government. That may be true for some, but I wouldn't necessarily categorize them as "mall-goers". "Ignorant Americans" is a MUCH better term.
 
By Standard Deviant on April 10, 2007 9:04 AM
There's nothing that says that America can't be both "at War" and "at the mall". I go play softball on the weekends, I go to movies, I even like that singing competition and marvel at both those that would trash others careers for a bad joke and those that starve themselves over said bad joke. That doesn't mean I also don't keep up with what's going on, try to support the effort in my own small and (largely) ineffectual way. It doesn't mean I don't care about the stupidity that is the surrender bill (that even it's sponsor's knew was so stupid they had to buy votes with tons of pork to get it to pass). "At War", "At the Mall": They aren't mutually exclusive. MM©
 
By John of Argghhh! on April 10, 2007 9:10 AM
I admit, I don't like going to the Mall. Except maybe to cross it from one Smithsonian edifice to another. Oh, wait, different Mall. I don't like those, either. For much the same reason I don't like much of Johnson County Kansas suburban development. It all looks alike, with the same stores, all of which I can shop the internet for and not have to mingle with people shouting so their bluetooth earpieces will pick up the noise. I can't tell the crazies from the normals any more - usetabe a reliable indicator was the guy gesticulating and talking to thin air. Not anymore. He might be a Borg, assimilated by the "I must be in constant contact with someone who is not here" hive-mind. Since all the good hobby shops died around here years ago, I have no incentive to go to a mall, except when SWWBO drags me there. But I'll defend to inconvenience your right, nay, duty, to go, if that's yer thing. Heh. I suddenly realize I don't have that much of a life. But at least I *type* at the people-not-here that I communicate with, and don't shout half my conversation into the crowd. 8^)
 
By Oldloadr on April 10, 2007 9:59 AM
You all know, if the citizenry all had epiphanies and decided that they should stay away from the malls until the jihadists are destroyed, the malls would shrivel up and die. Then, when the last wave of active duty to re-deploy gets back home, there will be no malls for all of the female GIs to go to enjoy the down-time they've earned? Where wold the male GIs go to check out the female citezens? Seriously, Remember during Desert Shield, the NFL considered canceling the Super Bowl, but the rank and file GIs were against such a move. Bottom line: Any change to what passes for normal on the streets of America is a victory for the enemy.
 
By Oldloadr on April 10, 2007 10:07 AM
BTW, John, I've only been to a mall once since I got back from Iraq last June. You look in my checkbook and all you see is the BX (sometimes we drive to Ft. Jackson and go the the Big PX) and Walmart so I guess we could have a competition over who has the most boring life (LOL).
 
By MajMike on April 10, 2007 10:51 AM
ah, yes, wandering thru the fussganger zone to the Karstadt mall in Fulda to watch the loverly frauleins, and maybe stopping by the schnellimbess on the way to the Irish Pub there... now THAT was what we were there for.
 
By John of Argghhh! on April 10, 2007 11:00 AM
Apparently MajMike *really* likes that memory...! Ummmm, schnellimbiβ!
 
By Grumpy on April 10, 2007 11:31 AM
Ladies, Gents, this has been, in my view a VERY HEALTHY discussion. If I get it right, you are talking about going everywhere from spastic to normal. Would somebody just define "normal", please? There are times I feel like going off in all directions. But the real wisdom you are showing is your target - BALANCE! By the way, when I use the phrase, "going off", I mean, "GOING OFF"! By the way, how many of you out there haven't felt the same way? But at this point, my sense of humor kicks in.
 
By BillT on April 10, 2007 11:37 AM
Keep the fast food. I'll stick with a nice brat, some spaetzel, a side of suss-saures rotkraut and a cold six pack of hefe weissbier. On second thought, hold the brat, the spaetzel and the cabbage...
 
By Justthisguy on April 10, 2007 11:40 AM
Oh, JoA, I'm a "normal" in the sense you mean (and no other), and I don't mind your using it that way, at all. And *I'm* supposed to be one of those people who have to have jokes explained to them! Maybe "sociotypical" would be better? (by analogy with "neurotypical", which gets very similar objections) Nah, smells of the lamp. "Normal" (said with a smile) is fine with me.
 
By Oldloadr on April 10, 2007 11:54 AM
The schnellimbiss is the perfect place for lunch when shopping the small shops, although there is this fine resturant on the corner of the Walkplatz in Bitburg where you can get an excelent jaegerschnitzel, with, of course Bitburger Bier on draft.
 
By AFSister on April 10, 2007 12:13 PM
Dang it. Y'all are KILLING me with the German food and beer references. KILLING ME. ohhhh but what a way to go, eh?
 
By Maggie on April 10, 2007 12:39 PM
Ry - I am going over to read Op-For and you better get ready to run. John & Charlie are *MY* boys and I have been following them since they were the Officer's Club. BS - I'm sure they would prefer a cigar to a valium, although John doesn't smoke. My understanding of the original photo was that "at the mall' was meant to convey a sense of cluelessness. No Marine (or any other service member) resents Americans carrying on with their lives. "At the mall" conotes a "you are self-absorbed" tone in my mind. I may go to the mall on occasion, but I am not "at the mall" (although, I am completely self absorbed). I will not get into the "normal" discussion again. Although, we could discuss Grumpy's new term........"going off"......where is the NC17?
 
By John of Argghhh! on April 10, 2007 1:40 PM
Ya, Maggie, indeed on the photo. But the rest of the points made *still* resonate, one way or another. Spaetzle. Mmmmmm. Zigeunerschnitzel... Oxtail soup... Roter Löwe bier. We were ready to defend that place.
 
By Oldloadr on April 10, 2007 2:02 PM
Based on Maggie's input, I think this is a fine example of what happens when we let our slang and jargon get out in the mainstream consciousness. I remember when I went through the TAP seminar (transition assistance program), we were told that to avoid negative situations in the workplace, we needed to learn to speak civilian. Of course the fact that the military has seminars to help us transition to civilian life says something, I think. Now, we get on milblogs, talk to each other, post pictures from the sand box, and forget that others could wonder in and misunderstand. However, I think most of those that would both misunderstand and take offense probably already don’t like us, never will like us and probably, along with their favorite president, loath us. On the other hand, the more I look at it, the less obvious it is to me that they are referring to a clueless mental state rather than a complaint about the public in general. Along those lines, I feel (and I’m sure a lot of marines do, as well) that since most Americans are not engaged, why do they have such strong opinions and the war, especially the Iraq Campaign?
 
By Grumpy on April 10, 2007 2:05 PM
Maggie, I can not have this commentor confused about a term I used in a posting. The term "Going off" means nothing more than some playful grumbling, NOTHING MORE! Do we get our PG-17 rating back? Great! This is the reason for the handle "Grumpy". Thanks, Maggie. It is interesting, people who know the story of what went on to me in the military will ask, "How are you doing?" My answer is the same, "As grumpy as always." They say, "You're not grumpy." With a laugh, I say, "I said, as grumpy AS ALWAYS!" You look at their face and see a big smile. Then I hear them say, "OH, now I get it." Maggie, I like your sense of humor and have a good week.
 
By AFSister on April 10, 2007 2:31 PM
So... Grumpy. When ya bringing Sneezy, Dopey, Doc, and the rest of the crew to the Castle? Don't worry about bringing Snow White- she'd never make it around here. Too... pure.
 
By Maggie on April 10, 2007 2:34 PM
The term "Going off" means nothing more than some playful grumbling, NOTHING MORE!
Oh, how terribly disappointing. BTW, the Adjutant is linking to one of our favorite madmen, Chuck. He wants to tax me because I won't choose one of the rotation and settle down.
 
By MajMike on April 10, 2007 4:07 PM
Maggie, sit back and have a Koenig Ludwig Dunkel and a Theuringerwurst und brotchen und pommes mit jaegersauce (sp?)... it'll help clean the plumbing right out, and ya won't be caring 'bout no stinkin' rotation..
 
By ry on April 10, 2007 4:08 PM
Ry - I am going over to read Op-For and you better get ready to run. John & Charlie are *MY* boys and I have been following them since they were the Officer's Club.
--Maggs Huh? Why should I run? I'm a stand up (enough) guy that I gave an appology when deserved. I think I used 'The Mall' as BullNav meant it, people being so utterly detached and unaware as to be outright tragic. And some people are that. Look, I did put in the part about every day life and that it mattered here:
living day-to-day as my mother did during WW2, Korea, and Vietnam in getting married, dating, having kids, buying cars and houses, normal everyday stuff that has to happen when it happens or there’s no point for the OPFOR crew to wear the Colors.
Some of you really should't speed read this. I'm not Conrad(denser than Tungsten Conrad), but there's stuff there that handles much of the crit I'm getting. And John edited off my attempt at being funny where I said I doubted the OpFor Crew even noticed I existed and had a beef. I ain't running away. I did the manly and honorable thing. I apologized when wrong and publicly instead of hiding from view in an email or something. I gave BullNav static because I thought he was being reactionary. He wasn't. What more do people want? Sorry BlSp. I'm not out to piss people off. It fits certain emperical observations.
 
By Grumpy on April 10, 2007 4:13 PM
Maggie, What can I say, we are guests of the Castle. We must keep things "decent", the Code of Conduct at the Castle, PG-17. Respectfully, Grumpy
 
By Justthisguy on April 10, 2007 4:44 PM
Grumpy's right. Don't scare the normals. Even I can act normal in public. For a while. As long as nothing too much gets on the nerves. (Just kidding; have run the "normal" emulation successfully for well over 50 years now, with only a few slips now and then.) Good, formal manners help avoid getting on nerves, and yelling, and duels, and things. And what's so insulting about calling somebody "normal", anyway? Beats the heck out of "whuffo" and "doodah" and "blissninny" etc. Professional sojers are demonstrably different in the head from the vast majority who are not of the fraternit
 
By Maggie on April 10, 2007 4:50 PM
The following statement is why I said it. It implies you were giving my boys a hard time.
It seems I owe Mr. BullNav and the Guys over at OPFOR something of a partial apology.
However, I only told you to get ready to run. I went, I read, you're fine. I didn't speed read. MajMike - Let's leave my pipes out of it....they've been through enough lately. Nothing could make me give up the Rotation. I'll pay the extra tax if that's how Chuck wants it when he's POTUS. Grumpy - Things may well need to be "decent" in the Grand Hall of the Castle of Argghhh!......but I am down in the Jungle Room with the rest of the SugarButtons Brigade.
 
By John on April 10, 2007 5:11 PM
Hey I'm confused....is my crew supposed to be pissed about something??? The mall thing.... I think our resident Marine infantryman explained it best: Why is it that the combat troops want to see this thing through, but the average American is tired of this war? What do you have to be tired of? Do you have any understanding of what it means to be truly tired? To patrol for hours in 120 degree heat wearing 100 pounds of kit? I'm sorry that watching images of Iraq on CNN has taxed you so greatly. No really, I am. That's ok, though, because I'm willing to share some of your load so that we can press on with the mission. Because that's what we do when we get tired. If Americans are "at the mall," it means that we in the service are doing our jobs. Good thing, methinks. However, what gets guys' goat is when civilians lament that they're "tired of war." Enter the "America is at the mall" post. Anyway RY, thanks for the apology...although I don't think it was warranted? Folks disagree on this stuff all the time, such is the blogosphere. Hi Maggie!!
 
By John of Argghhh! on April 10, 2007 6:04 PM
I *did* edit out Ry's snark at the end. I thought it more confusing than helpful. Perhaps I was mistaken... But then perhaps this thread wouldn't have developed the life it did, either. So...
 
By ry on April 10, 2007 9:52 PM
John of OpFor, yeah, there is something to appologize for. I wrote something here a while back about how you guys don't understand our fatigue. It's not simple and it isn't easily waved away with 'well, you ain't humpin' a pack so stfu' because it is the crushing moral responsibility of sending you guys into harms way, something you never escape and carry into The Great Beyond. That gets to be much so sometimes we want to escape it and say it isn't ours, but it is, and saying we're being yutzs for 'Being at The Mall' doesn't help(in lots of ways). And I did say, which Armoer edited out, I was sure you guys hadn't seen my complaint and if you did you proll'y didn't care. I appologized anyway. Just being me. I did take some exception to Lightning(now Slab) and BullNav saying it. I appologized for it. Some of it was spot on. I did see, initially, the series being a complaint that we lead even remotely normal lives while you guys were off at war. That because we weren't almost entirely absorbed by GWOT we were 'At The Mall' and worthy of scorn. So I backed off a little bit. no worries. Nobodies in 'I hate you' mode. Just polite disagreement. But even when being polite one can admit that they were mistaken.
 
By BillT on April 10, 2007 10:59 PM
...it is the crushing moral responsibility of sending you guys into harms way... Geez, ry, you make it sound like it's all kick-the-fledglings-out-of-the-nest 'n' stuff. To paraphrase Super Chicken's response to Fred, "We knew the job was dangerous when we took it..."
 
By ry on April 11, 2007 4:03 PM
To paraphrase Super Chicken's response to Fred, "We knew the job was dangerous when we took it..."
Irrelevant, though use of Super Chicken is a nice touch. ;) Super Chicken and Under Dog. Haven't seen those, or Tom Slick, in ages. We, the civilians and the elected gov't, have to be smart about how and when and for what job we send you to do. That you accept that it's a dangerous job is irrelevant to that. It's our responsibility to use you properly and construct conditions such that you can succeed with our decisions---who we vote for, what we tell our elected officials to vote for, what we say that has effects outside the US, and stuff of that nature. It's a serious responsibility. Just 'cause you knew it was dangerous when you took the Oath of Enlistment doesn't absolve me or anyone else of that responsibility. I honestly think if people did take said responsibility seriously we wouldn't be seeing some of the nonsense we are seeing. Since we're a republic I think Clauswitz supports this, but then I could be being melodramatic.
 
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