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  <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2008://1/tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-</id>
  <updated>2008-09-23T17:58:29Z</updated>
  <title>Comments for H&amp;I* Fires, 16 MAR 2007</title>
  <subtitle>We&apos;re the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost.  All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT,  and KA 2003-2007</subtitle>
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  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281</id>
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    <link rel="service.edit" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/cgi-bin/mt41/mt-atom.cgi/weblog/blog_id=1/entry_id=7281" title="H&amp;I* Fires, 16 MAR 2007" />
    <published>2007-03-17T04:19:30Z</published>
    <updated>2007-04-09T12:26:40Z</updated>
    <title>H&amp;I* Fires, 16 MAR 2007</title>
    <summary>Open post for those with something to share, updated through the day. New, complete posts come in below this one. Note: If trackbacking, please acknowledge this post in your post. That&apos;s only polite. You&apos;re advertising here, we should get an ad at your place... ********************************* Not everyone is on the same page as Keith Olberman (Conspiracy! It’s all a Bushitler conspiracy!) about Halliburton moving to Dubai. Another example in what unstated assumptions you have, or grasp on reality, effects how you process info. -- The Danger Room covers the questioning of the substance of Khalid Sheik Mohammed’s confession. -- Read...</summary>
    <author>
      <name></name>
      
    </author>
    
    <category term="General Commentary" />
    
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      <![CDATA[<p><em>Open post for those with something to share, updated through the day. New, complete posts come in below this one. Note: If trackbacking, please acknowledge this post in your post. That's only polite.</p>

<p>You're advertising here, we should get an ad at your place...</em></p>

<p>*********************************<br />
<a href="http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/weblog/2007/03/halliburton_move_makes_perfect.html"><strong>Not everyone </strong></a>is on the same page as Keith Olberman (Conspiracy!  It’s all a Bushitler conspiracy!)  about Halliburton moving to Dubai.  Another example in what unstated assumptions you have, or grasp on reality, effects how you process info.  <br />
--<br />
The Danger Room covers the <a href="http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/03/911_confession_.html"><strong>questioning of the substance of Khalid Sheik Mohammed’s confession.</strong></a><br />
--<br />
Read <a href="http://www.watchingamerica.com/tehrantimes000036.shtml"><strong>this</strong></a> and tell me that there aren’t serious similarities in the rhetoric used by the IRC and groups like International Solidarity.  <br />
--<br />
Mark Grimsley, aka War Historian, gets a hit in on <a href="http://warhistorian.org/wordpress/?p=536"><strong>PowerPoint presen</strong></a>tations, in and odd way. <br />
 --<br />
<a href="http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/johnrobb/2007/03/oil_spots_and_m.html"><strong>JRobb</strong></a> has some criticism of the ‘oil spot’ approach to counter-insurgency when applied to urban environments.  <br />
--<br />
What do we use as Trias bait, John?  Maybe <a href="http://beerblog.genx40.com/"><strong>beer</strong></a>?  <br />
--ry<br />
***********<br />
How about this for a little "bait":  <strong><a href="http://themiddleground.blogspot.com/2007/03/democrats-trot-out-oldnew-anti-war-vets.html">Democrats Pull Out New Improved Veterans Against the War</a></strong>, turning the whole "listen to the commanders in the field" strategy around on the Republicans who are still trying to figure out their pilot seat from their tail booms while <strong><a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070316/ap_on_go_co/us_iraq_97">barely holding on to the skids</a></strong>.</p>

<p><a href="http://themiddleground.blogspot.com/2007/03/information-war-power-of-propaganda.html"><strong>Media Stupidity or Blatant Propaganda</strong></a> - you be the judge.</p>

<p>A little entry from the annals of KC Soldiers' Angels:  <a href="http://soldiersangelskc.blogspot.com/2007/03/rosie-riveter-we-can-do-it.html"><strong>Meeting Rosie the Riveter</strong></a></p>

<p>Finally, for your amusement: <strong><a href="http://soldiersangelskc.blogspot.com/2007/03/message-to-troops-blooper-reel.html">St Patrick's Day Messenge to the Troops - Blooper Reel1</a></strong><br />
-Kat</p>

<p>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *</p>

<p>For ry's scrapbook: yet another illustration of the differences between Normals and Uniforms -- <a href="http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyid=2007-03-15T185417Z_01_L15653417_RTRUKOC_0_US-BRITAIN-ADMIRAL-PARDON.xml"><strong>Job Accountability</strong></a>.</p>

<p>We sometimes get a nice epitaph, though.<br />
<blockquote><br />
To the perpetual disgrace of public justice, the honorable John Byng, admiral of the blue, fell a martyr to political persecution on 14th March in the year 1757, when bravery and loyalty were insufficient securities for the life and honor of a naval officer.<br />
</blockquote><br />
 --BillT<br />
********************************<br />
Heh.  Okay, turn the other cheek, fine, but when printer ink is so expensive, <a href="http://www.curbed.com/archives/2007/03/15/morning_reverie_in_prospect_lefferts_gardens.php">why double your loss?</a>  </p>

<p>Another look at Walter Reed, <strong><a href="http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/dhenninger/?id=110009787">with some support for MG Weightman</a></strong>.  -the Armorer</p>

<p>*********************************</p>

<p>Heee - Proof Positive is at hand!   Bush is truly, one of the four horsemen of The Apocalypses.  His true purpose for traveling to Latin America, is now revealed: To bring plague and pestilence to México.  The very same day he left the Mexican city of  Mérida, Sun-blotting clouds of locusts, befell upon the darkened skies of the city.  Well, according to snail-loving folks at <strong><a href="http://es.news.yahoo.com/15032007/159/visita-bush-merida-sufre-plaga-langostas.html">Agence France Presse</a></strong>.  My apologies to those languagely challenged, a this is the only reference I could find - BOQ</p>

<p>*********************************</p>

<p>Hmm...not sure if this has already been publicized here at The Castle, but I figured <a href="http://www.pinupsforvets.com/index.html"><strong>linking to a pinup calendar</strong></a> twice couldn't hurt.  Especially one that raises money for American veterans (hat-tip to <a href="http://targetcentermass.net/?p=1638"><strong>Target Centermass</strong></a>).  - Damian</p>

<p>*********************************</p>]]>
      <![CDATA[<p>*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.</p>

<p>Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.</p>

<p>Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*</p>

<p>The <s>UAVs</s> (oops, can't call 'em UAVs anymore - they're now Unmanned Aerial Systems... some Colonel got his Legion of Merit for that change...), er, um UAS's we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.</p>

<p>I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".</p>]]>
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  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58047</id>
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    <title>Comment from ry on 2007-03-19</title>
    <author>
        <name>ry</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        Congrats!  
Defense can always be a pain.  I&apos;m glad you&apos;re finished with the headwarping and at times soul crushing work.  
So, are you crazy enough to go for a third? ;)
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-19T10:01:22Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-19T10:01:22Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58035</id>
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    <title>Comment from SangerM on 2007-03-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>SangerM</name>
        <uri>http://www.grandretort.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.grandretort.com">
        Well, phoeey.  I just dropped that off here the other day, and went back to getting ready for the graduation, etc.  Sorry to have avoided this, it was not intentional, I just got wrapped up in the end of the trail looming...

As I wrote, it&apos;s a small thing. I dislike it.  ok.  No big deal, but I decided I&apos;m not going to even read anything that covers this anymore. let alone comment on it.  I am not trying to push, this is personal and it just sets wrong for me, but it wouldn&apos;t be the first time I&apos;m off the beaten path, eh?

But, I&apos;m DONE.  Presented my thesis Friday, got all grades by Friday night, had graduation yeaterday (guest speaker is Head of Unicef, he was 6 yrs old and living in Hiroshima when we dropped a bomb on it...  very interesting  fellow).  

Am in D.C. right now, waiting on room to be ready.  Gonna be a nice week.

More soon.

    </content>
    <published>2007-03-18T18:53:42Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-18T18:53:42Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58032</id>
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    <title>Comment from FbL on 2007-03-18</title>
    <author>
        <name>FbL</name>
        <uri>http://www.fuzzilicious.blogspot.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.fuzzilicious.blogspot.com">
        <![CDATA[Thanks, Maggie.  And if he won't hug or dance, do you think the Armorer might accept a euro-style kiss on the cheek?  ;)

<i>Even if, oddly enough, the snark was self-referent.</i>

LOL.  Yeah, it didn't hurt my feelings, but it always disturbed me just a touch.  And I guess seeing Ry defend it against Sanger's discomfort just pushed a button in me.  As I said before, there's definitely a difference, but I don't think one side is of more or less value than the other.  So I'm uncomfortable with something that implies that, even if it is often a touch tongue-in-cheek.

I <i>do</i> sometimes feel that the sacrifices and comforts are not equal, but I remind myself that we needn't all be warriors (others of us need to keep the homefront warm) and that they have volunteered to serve us in this way...]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-18T06:08:52Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-18T06:08:52Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58031</id>
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    <title>Comment from Maggie on 2007-03-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>Maggie</name>
        <uri>http://bostonmaggie.blogspot.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://bostonmaggie.blogspot.com">
        FbL - Great comments.  Well thought out and clearly expressed.

Ry - Knock yourself out.

I&apos;m going to pester the Armorer until I get some popcorn too......since I know I can&apos;t get a hug or a dance.......
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-18T04:25:14Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-18T04:25:14Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58025</id>
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    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-03-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh!</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        Heh.  I was just sayin&apos; that since the nor-, er, some people around here didn&apos;t like the words used to describe the distinction, I was kewl with changing the words, since I wasn&apos;t going to forgo the distinction.

Even if, oddly enough, the snark was self-referent.

That&apos;s all I was after.  

Ry can keep tilting at this windmill if&apos;n he wants, but it&apos;s a closed subject for me.

[goes to fire up the popcorn machine]
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-18T01:14:10Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-18T01:14:10Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58024</id>
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    <title>Comment from FbL on 2007-03-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>FbL</name>
        <uri>http://www.fuzzilicious.blogspot.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.fuzzilicious.blogspot.com">
        <![CDATA[<i>3) It also shows, at times depending on usage, respect for both by the opposing camp.</i>

How is that mutually respectful?  I honestly don’t see where you’re coming from me, as it seems to by definition imply abnormality in “non-normals.”

<i> Yet, I realize there is something very different, something that will always color the friendship between John and I, because I haven't been in.</i>

True.  It would also color your friendship with a man who spent a life as a priest, as it colors my friendships with those who didn’t grow up as “Pastor’s Kids.”  Seriously, so what?  Why is this such a big deal?  (I’m asking with an honest desire to know)

Btw, I don’t see anybody attempting to develop a “rule” that we cant use that term; they’re just expressing their discomfort with it.  As Sanger said, he’ll defer to the rest.

As to your quotes from comments to Sgt B, I didn’t see it as being a labeling of ALL civilians in most cases.  And to say that some civilians feel “less” around mil types is simply to observe a phenomenon, not to say it is good or correct.	

<i> I don't know how many times someone has found a clever way to call non-military males 'un-men' and nancy boys. oh, but now were supposed to worry about making military and ex-military people fell different in a way that has a negative connotation. My bad.</i>

You know, maybe I just need to stop, because you’re talking about things I just don’t see around here.  But then you say things like…

<i> Contempt of soldiers or civilians doesn't need new terms. 'America is at the mall.' Multiple messages, but inherently contemptuous of civilians who aren't gung-ho about the war.</i>

Maybe I misunderstood, but I always thought that didn’t refer to all civilians, merely those who choose to put their heads in the sand and ignore the fact that we’re at war. And it’s more about willful ignorance than lack of support (gung ho).

Maybe I’m being a Pollyanna, but I see the kind of rejections/divisions implied in the use of “normal” to be exceptions rather than rules.  But that again, I’m always amazed at peoples’ inability to give each other the benefit of the doubt…

<i> In truth, I find this is a rather fair weather complaint seeing how often people around here have expressed differeing levels of disdain for Normals/Civilians in many different forms and many different threads.</i>

I have to say that I have not seen among the regulars around here anything approaching broad disdain for civilians that wasn’t answered with a “wait a sec.”  For segments of civilians?  Yes, and often well-deserved.

As to your last line, Ry.  I don’t see how that is true.  Civilian is a neutral word that is entirely context-dependent, and so contains a vast potential of meanings.  Why is it then a better choice to use a word that is inherently derogatory to the “other?”]]>
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    <published>2007-03-18T00:11:25Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-18T00:11:25Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58023</id>
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    <title>Comment from FbL on 2007-03-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>FbL</name>
        <uri>http://www.fuzzilicious.blogspot.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.fuzzilicious.blogspot.com">
        <![CDATA[I wonder if this is a male-female thing.  I mean, Maggie and I both seem to be comfortable being able to meet servicemembers and warfighters “halfway.”  By that I mean that we have found that rather than being an impediment, it is a bridge.  True, there is a land I will never completely enter—military world, but that’s okay with me.  We don’t expect ourselves to be the same as men, so the military thing doesn’t feel like an impediment to acceptance of us.  Perhaps it’s an extension of my acceptance that men and women are fundamentally different that is a good thing; it is the differences that mutually attract, and the different parts that fit together so well (no, not just talking sex), our differences that unite to make something better than we are alone.  

The military application of this was perfectly encapsulated one day when a warfighter told me that it is for people like me—people who rock the cradles, raise the next generation, create music, maintain a homefront in all its variety for whom warriors fight.  In Ry’s case, it is the scientist expanding our knowledge, firing our industry and curing disease that inspires the warfighter to believe the rest of us (“normals”) are worth their sacrifice and sufering.  

While Ry talks about service being a barrier between him on other men, it has been for me a connection—I have found in the military world, more acceptance, tolerance, appreciation, support and even love than anywhere outside my family.  And I am told that stems from a uniquely military way of evaluating and sifting people.  Yes, I run into the idiots who label me before they know me—“Civilian.  She ignorant and without a clue,” and it infuriates and sometimes hurts me.  But after I calm down and regain perspective, I know that it is their loss and their problem.  It doesn’t eat me up.  I have learned that civilian and military are complementary.  We wouldn’t last long without our warfighters, and what would be worth fighting for if we were all warriors?

Relatedly, this is the problem with multiculturalism when it becomes a “we are all the same” idiocy.  We are not.  We are different and we are complementary.  We are bound by our humanity and the ways in which some of our values can be similar or parallel (setting aside the issues of areas of fundamental incompatibility such as Islam and the West), and conversely distance is created by some of our experiences that we’ll never bridge.  But that’s okay; it doesn’t make us less valuable  Men who are not soldiers are different than soldiers, but that doesn’t make them less any more than it makes a Japanese man by definition less than an American one.

<i>It does show the estrangement/contempt, in general, that both camps have and feel for each other.(I point to some rather choice writing on Sgt. B's request for help).</i>

Very true, but I am reminded that those feelings of contempt are rational response to experiences, not an in-born attitude of disdain for civilians.  I shrug it off; they just haven’t had the chance to unlearn their reflexive contempt.  And on the other side, most of the truly anti-military attitudes (vs. simple ignorance or insecurity on the part of the civilian in a majority of cases) are leftover strains from post-Vietnam.  

[Continued]]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-18T00:10:48Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-18T00:10:48Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58021</id>
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    <title>Comment from ry on 2007-03-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>ry</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[So let me get this straight:  it makes you feel bad so it should never be done even though it is a useful rhetorical and sociological tool?  

Then I expect people to jump all up and down over stuff like this:  <a href="http://www.thedonovan.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=7187" rel="nofollow"><blockquote>I was pretty good at it, which made me not so good at being among people who get their feelings hurt too easily by people like me who don't shellac their commentaries enough (Ry is an example).</blockquote></a>  Or this: <blockquote>Other people feel less... well, just "less," around former and current mil folks. </blockquote>

None of you did.  So get off my back. 

And yes, i do realize that it was done in support of a fellow Denizen and not intended, or I hope it wasn't, as a slight.  but it shows exactly the same sentiment, openly and vigorously, as Normal does.  AFAIK nobody complained about that.  So why this? What's different about it?

I don't know how many times someone has found a clever way to call non-military males 'un-men' and nancy boys. oh, but now were supposed to worry about making military and ex-military people fell different in a way that has a negative connotation.  My bad. It isn't just one person doing it, I have done it too, nor is it always conveyed with a sense of comradeship either as it is often flat out mean; and has been at times personal.  So get off my back about it.  

I use something as shorthand to describe a phenomenon as opposed to intentionally insulting.  Not intentionally insulting and something, like the f word, that has a million and one meanings dependent on usage running from a status put on a pedestal to out right hatred, unlike some of the naked and uncloaked derisive sentiments trafficed around here.  And now we're supposed to worry about this one because it offends a few people when we haven't cared about how other terms might have offended civilians who are lurkers and passers by for several years?     

I find it odd that even though I have ersatz family, since my real one sucks, and loved ones both in and out of uniform too that some of you all are assuming that just because I say something you find distasteful that I'm like another crowd that knows little and have to be reminded of things.  Like alot of the other Normals and Soldiers around here I sit someplace between the camps.  In another category with its own benefits and its own problems.  It might also help to see that I also mentioned the training element as well.       

Guess what.  The groups already exist and the problems exist.  Whether the term is used or not.  Regardless of how you feel about it  There's terms and phrases used profusely around here that do the same damn thing. Are we to declare a moratorium on ALL of them then, or just the ones particular Denizens don't like?  

Contempt of soldiers or civilians doesn't need new terms.  'America is at the mall.'  Multiple messages, but inherently contemptuous of civilians who aren't gung-ho about the war.  But with Normals we have something that is different.  But it offends sometimes.  So let's ban it.   

In truth, I find this is a rather fair weather complaint seeing how often people around here have expressed differeing levels of disdain for Normals/Civilians in many different forms and many different threads.  Now that there's something that reminds you of it and makes you feel bad about it there's a problem?        

The term is a better descriptor because of how it incorporates all of the different feelings and emotions involved.  Kinda like the f word being able to convey a hundred different things. as I've laid out afore.  It's useful.  It makes us all look at the differences and think about how we strengthen the divide or not.  

Unless Armorer tells me not to I'll continue to use it for exactly these reasons.   

My appologies to Sgt. B.  I was trying to think of people who weren't involved in this to use in examples to keep it from inflaming the anger of participants.  No slight intended. 

Yes, sometimes when John uses it I'm offended.  Other times not.  It serves a larger purpose.  So unless directed to I'll continue to use it.  Not because I like sticking it to anyone, but because it does things simply saying civilian can never do.  
]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-17T22:38:26Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-17T22:38:26Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58019</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html#comment-58019" />
    <title>Comment from FbL on 2007-03-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>FbL</name>
        <uri>http://www.fuzzilicious.blogspot.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.fuzzilicious.blogspot.com">
        I&apos;m with Maggie and Sanger, especially on her clarification that she&apos;s not saying there isn&apos;t a difference.

I don&apos;t like use of the word &quot;normal,&quot; which implies the negative &quot;abnormal&quot; to all of you who have served.  You are not the majority and you are unique in many ways, but the implied &quot;abnormal&quot; is not a positive and that is why I don&apos;t like &quot;normal.&quot;  &quot;Civilian&quot; covers it quite well, and leaves the reader to apply any associated connotations himself.

And something that comes through in Ry&apos;s comments is that what makes a service member different is inborn and not learned.  I think that&apos;s true in some aspects, but anybody who&apos;s seen a Marine before and after Boot (to give an example), knows how much can be built on what seemed a very basic &quot;frame.&quot;  Add to that the experiences that come from a military career (both on and off the battlefield), and a strong argument can be made for the experiences mattering more than the raw material.  (Note that I am not saying there aren&apos;t certain types drawn to this kind of service --especially that very rare type who is called to be a warrior--or that certain prerequisite characteristics don&apos;t make better servicemembers.  Just saying that Soldiers, Sailors and Marines, Airmen and Guardsmen aren&apos;t pulled from their mothers&apos; wombs as fully-formed warriors separate from the civilian class.

And one point of clarification regarding Sgt. B, who is probably too busy to read this thread:  Sgt. B is most definitely a USMC combat vet (Panama), and was right in the middle of it all, too.
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-17T16:20:46Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-17T16:20:46Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58016</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html#comment-58016" />
    <title>Comment from Maggie on 2007-03-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>Maggie</name>
        <uri>http://bostonmaggie.blogspot.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://bostonmaggie.blogspot.com">
        Thank you John....on both counts.  

For the record.....I never said there wasn&apos;t a difference.  If there wasn&apos;t a difference military service wouldn&apos;t be criteria for entrance into &quot;The Rotation&quot;. (WK, FbL, SWWBO, the SB gang et al?  Can I get an amen? 
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-17T13:53:11Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-17T13:53:11Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58015</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html#comment-58015" />
    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-03-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh!</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        Okay, now we see the downside of serial email conversation, it, too isolates and causes people to fort up and it gets into over-analysis.

One of the problems here is &quot;the commons&quot;.

We are a community of generally shared core interests and values, with lots of room to maneuver once you get away from the center.

Maggie and Sanger don&apos;t like the dichotomy.  Others among us are comfortable with the terms because, at the gut level, we feel them to be true.

There are places that only my father and I can go, among the family.  Not because we don&apos;t love my sister, or my cousins, or my other extended family, but because only my father and I have looked over the sights of weapons at human beings with the intent of doing them serious harm.  And ducked when those same people expressed their annoyance in like kind.  

The same is true here.  The difference is that because of the nature of the medium, having sidebar conversations like that can&apos;t be private, unless they go to email.

So, Maggie, I&apos;ll try to remember not to use the term &apos;normals&apos; (though you don&apos;t qualify).  

But the core truth is, there *is* a difference, the community of shared experience, and that&apos;s simply a fact.

Just like I&apos;m never going to truly empathize with a discussion of childbirth among mothers who have given birth.

And even less among those who had stillborn children.  

It is simply a slice of experience I am never going to fully understand.


    </content>
    <published>2007-03-17T13:30:32Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-17T13:30:32Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58014</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html#comment-58014" />
    <title>Comment from Maggie on 2007-03-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>Maggie</name>
        <uri>http://bostonmaggie.blogspot.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://bostonmaggie.blogspot.com">
        <![CDATA["Suck it up" is flip.

Sanger's arguement can't be flawed because he is stating that the term, as it's being used, makes him feel a certain way.  No one gets to point out a flaw in that, it's just arrogant.

My questions about where people fit in on the scale were rhetorical.  I was trying to point out that all these lines in the sand don't move us forward.

I didn't say there wasn't kinship. 

Anytime you use terms this way (You served - here's your label.....you didn't - here's your label) it has the potential to isolate, to widen the divide.  That's what's happening here.  Sanger and I have told you that we don't like how this makes us feel.  We've both kept our mouths shut and <em>sucked it up </em>for a while.....now we're saying <u>enough</u>.  For my part, I don't see what I'm doing here if I'm going to constantly be reminded that I don't quite fit in.]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-17T12:55:19Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-17T12:55:19Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58011</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html#comment-58011" />
    <title>Comment from ry on 2007-03-17</title>
    <author>
        <name>ry</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        &quot;SangerM has raised a valid point (I would say that even if I disagreed) and doesn&apos;t deserve the flip attitude.&quot;  


This isn&apos;t &apos;flip&apos;.  I laid out a series of points and a logical argument in much the manner I was taught to write in the sciences; impersonal and to the point.  That&apos;s anything but flip.    

I call John my big brother because he&apos;s nicer and more supportive than my maternal older brother.  You think I don&apos;t empathize, sympathize, and love people in Uniform?  Yet, I realize there is something very different, something that will always color the friendship between John and I, because I haven&apos;t been in.  Same with my buddy James(SGT. Moran, USMC).  Our friendship hasn&apos;t been the same since he joined the Corps 7 years ago.  We&apos;re still each others oldest and best friends(I&apos;ve known him exactly 27 years, 5 months, and 9 days), but there&apos;s something there that makes it different then what it was before besides just the passing of time.  


The scars of combat:  irrelevant.  Wearing the uniform does something to you.  Sgt B never saw combat.  Bill did.  Yet, there&apos;s a kinship there that I can never be part of because I haven&apos;t and can&apos;t wear the uniform.  This phenomenon doesn&apos;t exist?  Then why is the USO such a haven for traveling servicemen?      

&quot;Yet he thinks our minds are the halves of one whole.&quot;
There&apos;s lots of ways to handle such a statement.  Does he mean supplementary or complementary(adding up to 180 or 360)?  CAn be totally true and yet show a major divide between the Civilian(Normal) and Miliitary mentality.  

Where do first responders fit in the scale?  At funerals for cops and firefighters there&apos;s often a command for Uniformed Personnel to do something(stand, salute, what have you).  That says a lot.  The brotherhood, another term people around here take dislike to, crosses many groups.  They are similar but still not the same. 

Police and fireman are often not treated as simple civilians, similar to how the military is not.  Don&apos;t we have a special set of terms for them?  First responders and the like?  They are seperate and different in certain ways.  Certain privilages and certain responsibilities that those not of that group are not given.  They recieve training that shapes their thinking, why else do we talk of institutional learning, institutional bias, and group think if it isn&apos;t because a group doesn&apos;t have something that sets them appart?  

Yes, there is contempt at times between the groups(check some of Sanger&apos;s own writing from the thread where Sgt B asked for some advice).  Cop bars?  Firefighter bars?  Why are civilians who show up uninvited to such venues given a cold shoulder and glares?  Do they form the same way and for the same reason as bars for Cub fans?  Nobody plays the pipes at a Cub fans wake out of tradition.  Whole parts of the city don&apos;t shut down for the death of a Cub fan.  They are different.  There&apos;s nothing wrong with pointing out how and why, and the friction that arises because of the difference.   

it&apos;s a decent objection but it is ultimately flawed for various reasons.  There&apos;s nothing wrong with talking about it and showing where the argument is flawed.    
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-17T06:17:14Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-17T06:17:14Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58007</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html#comment-58007" />
    <title>Comment from Maggie on 2007-03-16</title>
    <author>
        <name>Maggie</name>
        <uri>http://bostonmaggie.blogspot.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://bostonmaggie.blogspot.com">
        I&apos;m with Sanger, from the other side of it.  I haven&apos;t liked it since it started out here.  The whole idea that because I never wore a uniform, I can never truly relate to those who do is absurd.  My ex-husband wore the uniform of an Army MP and chased AWOLS through up-state NY.  He never saw combat.  Where does he fall in your scale?  Cops, firefighters and other first responders who never enlisted in the military....where do they fall in your scale?  My favorite Naval Consort carries the physical and mental scars of multiple conflicts dating back nearly 40 years.  Yet he thinks our minds are the halves of one whole.

As far as the &quot;suck it up&quot; comment, I would like to repsond but every thing I&apos;ve typed for the last five minutes has been rude or belligerent.  So just know that I do not care for the cavalier way it&apos;s being tossed around out here.  SangerM has raised a valid point (I would say that even if I disagreed) and doesn&apos;t deserve the flip attitude.
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-17T02:53:00Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-17T02:53:00Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58006</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html#comment-58006" />
    <title>Comment from ry on 2007-03-16</title>
    <author>
        <name>ry</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        THat&apos;s okay, Boq.  There&apos;s bablefish over in the left side bar. ;]
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-17T00:47:48Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-17T00:47:48Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58005</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html#comment-58005" />
    <title>Comment from ry on 2007-03-16</title>
    <author>
        <name>ry</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        Actually I like it because it does present much of the problem in relations and difference between the two segements.
1)  Those who take to the profession of arms are not run-o&apos;-the-mill.  Never have been down thru history(Prussia and Sparta being really oddball societies, and even then it wasn&apos;t the majority that served.).  It represents that quite well. 
2)  It does show the estrangement/contempt, in general, that both camps have and feel for each other.(I point to some rather choice writing on Sgt. B&apos;s request for help).
3)  It also shows, at times depending on usage, respect for both by the opposing camp.
4)  The complaint of the jackalopes misusing it seems hollow.  Look at the reportage(the alcohol piece in the NYT the other day for example).  They don&apos;t need this to do their dirty work.  They&apos;re doing a might fine job of maligning the military without it.  It&apos;s lingo only used at Argghhh!.  I&apos;ve not seen it used elsewhere, anywhere.  
5)  For me.  I would&apos;ve been a terrible soldier.  I&apos;m think skinned, at times arrogant, mercurial of temperment, posses quick reflexes but unable to not flinch, and intellectually vain(often).  I don&apos;t fantasize about being in.  it would&apos;ve sucked for me and those around me.  If I&apos;d served under any of those who were here you&apos;da hated me and had a million deragatory nicknames for me. 

But I certainly respect those who found a way to overcome their own faults and be part of Big Green(or whatever Service they did time with).  They aren&apos;t like me and simply saying &apos;Soldier&apos; doesn&apos;t come close to expressing the difference.

So I say, take some of the advice that&apos;s been hurled at me by different Denizens at one time or another:  suck it up and don&apos;t be so namby pamby sensitive about it.   
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-17T00:41:00Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-17T00:41:00Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:58002</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html#comment-58002" />
    <title>Comment from Cricket on 2007-03-16</title>
    <author>
        <name>Cricket</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        I am glad to see that there is someone in MG Weightman&apos;s court.  I would like to see some justice for him.

John, yer a good guy, willing to post both sides.
BillT, you need more time with the scrupl&apos;s.
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-16T23:14:01Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-16T23:14:01Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:57999</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html#comment-57999" />
    <title>Comment from Neffi on 2007-03-16</title>
    <author>
        <name>Neffi</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[ "...<em>and so I defer to all you all</em>..." 
Now Sanger, you've been in Texas long enuff to know the proper usage is <em>'all y'all'</em>...
heh]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-16T21:05:40Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-16T21:05:40Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:57998</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html#comment-57998" />
    <title>Comment from fdcol63 on 2007-03-16</title>
    <author>
        <name>fdcol63</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        I just substituted the word &quot;civilian&quot; for &quot;normal&quot; and was okay with it.  LOL
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-16T20:47:07Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-16T20:47:07Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:57997</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html#comment-57997" />
    <title>Comment from John of Argghhh! on 2007-03-16</title>
    <author>
        <name>John of Argghhh!</name>
        <uri>http://www.thedonovan.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.thedonovan.com">
        Well, just because I want to use the word this way, consider yourself &quot;chid&quot;.

As for the substance of the remarks - hmmmmm.

Like it or not, there *is* a distinction between we and they.  Not as stark as portrayed, certainly, and far more multivariate than brevity allows for.

And, certainly, when the non-military types have to deal with us military types in distaff situations, many are surprised at how normal we are.

But there is still a difference.  How would you suggest we address it, or characterize it?
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-16T20:42:20Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-16T20:42:20Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:57994</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html#comment-57994" />
    <title>Comment from SangerM on 2007-03-16</title>
    <author>
        <name>SangerM</name>
        <uri>http://www.grandretort.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://www.grandretort.com">
        I&apos;ll just put this very simply, and you all can chide me as you must, but I reached the limits of humor about normals vs. uniforms (sorry, BillT, this is not you, but the distinction...).

I find the term normal as applied to Americans who haven&apos;t or are not currently members of the miltiary extraordinarily offensive.  I&apos;m normal and I was while I was in uniform and I&apos;m normal again, and so are ALL of the military folks who are in uniform now (except for the rare nutcase who is not normal for some othere reason...)

Could we please just find some less &apos;clever&apos; way to distinguish between military people and non military people before the dirtbags who are always looking for some other way to insult military people glom onto this and start using it perjoratively... As if we need more of that..

I really hate the term normal, used this way.  Really.  More important, I am begining to find myself avoiding discussions like this because it has really become a &quot;why soldiers are so much better than civilians&quot; conversation which while fun for a bit, has real potential to generate animosity and to draw folks looking to say &quot;see, arrogance, eltisim, etc...&quot;

More to the point, while some folks may feel some misguided angst about not being military, other folks feel the other way, and all this does is give them ammo--not that they need it, but why pander?

Anyway, I know this seems small, and so I defer to all you all who feel otherwise, but I really think this is a bad way to go...


V/R




    </content>
    <published>2007-03-16T20:01:11Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-16T20:01:11Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:57991</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html#comment-57991" />
    <title>Comment from Oldloadr on 2007-03-16</title>
    <author>
        <name>Oldloadr</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007120545,00.html#nogo
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-16T15:47:12Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-16T15:47:12Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:57990</id>
    <thr:in-reply-to ref="tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html"/>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/hi_fires_16_mar.html#comment-57990" />
    <title>Comment from Oldloadr on 2007-03-16</title>
    <author>
        <name>Oldloadr</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        <![CDATA[Re: BillT's comments on the hapless British Admiral (in my twisted mind) are relevent to the article/discussion at the below link (The Sun).

<a href="www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007120545,00.html#nogo" rel="nofollow"></a>]]>
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-16T15:44:00Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-16T15:44:00Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:57983</id>
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    <title>Comment from Maggie on 2007-03-16</title>
    <author>
        <name>Maggie</name>
        <uri>http://bostonmaggie.blogspot.com</uri>
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="http://bostonmaggie.blogspot.com">
        Why is Haliburton moving to Dubai suspicious anyway.......doesn&apos;t everyone want to move to Dubai?  Olberman is just jealous.  I know I am. 
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-16T13:28:37Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-16T13:28:37Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
  <entry>
    <id>tag:www.thedonovan.com,2007://1.7281-comment:57982</id>
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    <title>Comment from monkeyboy on 2007-03-16</title>
    <author>
        <name>monkeyboy</name>
        
    </author>
    <content type="html" xml:lang="en" xml:base="">
        Byng was shot, in the words of Voltaire, &quot;to encourage the others.&quot;

The irony was that he was tried for violating the Fighting Instructions&quot; the written operatinal manual. For the next few decades, no Admiral was brave enough to violate the instructions and any failure was escused because the followed the letter of the law. It took Nelson to break a habit that night well have led to the failure of the British Navy.
    </content>
    <published>2007-03-16T13:25:29Z</published>
    <updated>2007-03-16T13:25:29Z</updated>
  </entry>
  
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