*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The UAVs (oops, can't call 'em UAVs anymore - they're now Unmanned Aerial Systems... some Colonel got his Legion of Merit for that change...), er, um UAS's we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".

� Secure this line!

---

I Miss My War...

That story is one that HAD to be written by someone who has been there and could put the mindset of so many into words that may be able to be understood by the masses.

Proud of what he did, and at the same time he years to return, because he feels that in his home and civilian life, he is no longer "alive".

I am sending this to some people who haven't been there, in hopes that it may open their eyes a little.

posted by Jon The Mechanic on March 24, 2007 7:06 PM

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Jon - Have them read it twice, because they'll be too busy with their preconceptions to absorb it on first reading.

posted by BillT on March 25, 2007 10:59 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The UAVs (oops, can't call 'em UAVs anymore - they're now Unmanned Aerial Systems... some Colonel got his Legion of Merit for that change...), er, um UAS's we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".

� Secure this line!

---

Just the subtitles are worth the trip over to Smash!

Everything I really needed to know about radicalism, I learned from Monty Python

posted by Maggie on March 23, 2007 9:00 AM

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I'm not sure how awards of that nature work exactly, but if he was medevaced stateside and his unit (and thus chain of command) was still in country, I'm sure that'll slow things up a bit.

If the unit is who I think it is, they just got back around December or so.

Still, 9 months is excessive.

posted by Heartless Libertarian on March 23, 2007 10:40 AM

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Back when Dad was earning his 7 Purple Hearts, the medical people did the paperwork, and it was automatic - hence Bill's comment about "waking up in the hospital with a PH pinned to your pillow."

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 23, 2007 11:21 AM

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Last two days:

Yesterday, we took the metro to Arlington, walked to the Tomb of the Unknown soldier and waited to see a changing of the guard and a wreath laying ceremony. Was, as always, moving, inspiring, and somber. The weather was beautiful, it could not have been a better day. We also walked around a bit, reading tombstones, talking about the significance of the place, etc. Also, and much more moving, we stumbled onto a Faces of the Fallen display inside the Women's Military Service museum. There are arrayed along the arched wall hundresd of small portraits of military people who have died since 9/11 in OEF and OIF, as well as other place, I think. The portraits are about 8x6 inches, and are painted by a number of different artists, but the whole place is just astonishing. The display ends in 2004 sometime, so it does not include everyone from then until now, but even so, it is an amazingly tender and moving testament to the people who are fighting this war. Famous names are there, as are the much more numerous non-famous. I found Sheehan there, with a note from his mother, what a shame she has brought such dishonor to the name he wears. He will never be remembered as the person he was, but as the son of the nutcase antiwar loser who traded his sacrifice for fleeting notoriety.... But you had to be reading the portrait plaques to find that one, because all of them were honored in different but equal ways. Pine cones, candy pennies, stick on stars, notes, letters, other things all were scattered about. I've pictures, I'll try to post some when I get back..

From there, we walked to the Lincoln Memorial, thence to Vietnam Memorial. I had thought I was over that, heh, I was, but not all the way, I guess. Explaining it to my daughter was hard. Thence to the Korean War memorial, still interesting (but there were a great many Asians there, mostly Korean, I think, and it wasn't just that I was looking)... Thence to the WWII memorial, and then to the Whitehouse front and back. Bush or some other big wig exited while we were at the front fence... Motorcycles appeared, the gates opened, they roared off, followed by limos' black SUVs, etc.. Quite a convoy, headed North in a hurry. Could have been anyone, but the number of cops in the vicinity (inside and outside the fence) increased like a rising tide just before the motorcade took off. Talk about an opsec footprint.

Hailed a cab (my daughter was just tickled stupid that it really works like it does on TV) back to the hotel, worn out. Ordered Chinese, which was GREAT (Chinatown is 2 blocks from here)...

Today, walked 7-8 blocks to the Museum of Natural History. Was great! Saw Lions 3D at Imax which was mediocre, and of course the best display was closed until late 2008 (NO blue whale or oceans stuff!!), but the dinosaurs were cool. The hope diamond looked smudged and dirty, a lot of the interactive displays were inoperable, and there is some remodeling going on, but even so, overall it was great!! There are two photo galleries that just have to be seen to be believed. No words could do these photos justice; they were so amazing I was nearly in tears with both envy and awe. One gallery is nature art contest winners, the other is devoted to a fellow who uses a flatbed scanner (without a lid) to create digital images of all sorts of things. I was floored by the beauty of it all. Just stunned. The trip here was worth it for this alone, if nothing else was any good, and certainly that hasn't been the case. If you get to this area, you must see these photos.

After, walked back to the hotel, past the Justice Department (looks like it's under siege) and the FBI building, which also looks under siege (with one lone sign outside that said Public Tours CLOSED). Can't imagine why. Ate leftover Chinese food for dinner, then took the bus (The Circulator Line, it's an excellent value, clean, neat, on time!) to Georgetown for a quick walking tour of the main street. Of course it's Friday, so the circus was complete. People of every nationality, language, dress style, and age wandering among the stores, restaurants, and upscale shops. Bought some Godiva Chocolates by the piece (that felt decadent), ate some NY pizza, and ended with coffee... Bus back, and now it's time to pack so I can go back to boring ol' Texas tomorrow. Of course I could use some boring for a bit. 3 weeks away from home is a bit much for me...

Oh yeah, the Post Office announced this week that it will be placing around 400 R2D2-painted mailboxes around the country this month in prep for a series of stamps. I've seen three of them in the past two days, one by the NPR building, one in front of the Daughters of the American Revolution building (west of the Whitehouse), and one in Georgetown. That doesn't leave many for the rest of us, does it... Maybe it was just 400 in the DC area? Either way, they look cool. Got pics of those too.

And that's it for now. I hope to get a few picture galleries posted within a week or two...

V/R

posted by SangerM on March 23, 2007 9:45 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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John,

I share your feelings, as my mother has smoked since she was 15. She grew up in Havana - pronounced by them as "HAY-vana" - FL, where shade tobacco was still king. Worked many summers stringing tobacco to earn money for her school clothes.

I worry about her health, especially because she is a breast cancer survivor since 1982. Unfortunately, no amount of pleading, begging, debating, or anything has worked. She's also what I call a "militant" (selfish?) smoker who's so focused on her own "right" to smoke that she disregards the rights of others to breathe non-polluted air, and disregards all the evidence about links between smoking and health.

"They don't know what causes cancer," she says in a raspy voice, as she scowls and flicks ashes from the tip of her cig, while whispy trails of grey-white vapor stream from her nostrils.

My dad finally got tired of hacking up phlegm about 25 years ago, and stopped cold turkey. Unfortunately, my mother has neither the will-power nor the will to do so. Nicotine is an intense addiction.

I fear that someday, I will go through what you're now going through.

posted by fdcol63 on March 23, 2007 8:30 AM

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You are right it is a choice.....and I choose to smoke. That does not mean I don't love my family or does it mean I want them to go thru what you went thru. I am a nurse who works on Telemetry unit. I see what smoking does to people everyday. And I see what it does to their families. I watched what smoking and drinking and basically not taking care of yourself did to my Dad a couple years ago. It was hard but he lived his life the way he wanted to until the very end, with no apologies or regrets and that's exactly what i plan to do.

posted by Monte Turner on March 23, 2007 9:02 AM

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Oh honey, what to say? She couldn't stop. In some ways it is a choice, but in some ways, it wasn't. I smoked for a very short time around the age of 17 and probably never inhaled (just thought it looked cool). I quit. It was easy, never having inhaled. But in my present job (home oxygen supplier), I see day in and day out that for some it is not a choice.
My mother is 68 and can't stop. She's tried everything and she is not stupid. Your mother's smoking probably closely paralleled my mother's experience. When they started, probably in the 40s or 50s, no one was touting the dangers. Hell, it was promoted as a way to curb your appetite. That first cigarette was the only time for either of them that it was a choice. I guarentee you that first cigarette, that last time either of them had a choice, they didn't know what was coming. Then, when the studies all came out, the true addicts were revealed. It was too late. It was too late for your mother, for my mother and for millions of others. They were addicts. Your mother was one. My mother is one. My dad was not. I was not. My grandmother was not. Your mother finally stopped when they put the cannula under her nose. Some people can't stop even then. I have had to take oxygen out of people's homes because they would not stop. We have had two patients with house fires (one the patient died, the other the patient was hospitalized with burns) because they could not stop.
If someone can stop, they should. If someone needs help stopping, they should be helped. But if they can't, there should be acceptance.

posted by Maggie on March 23, 2007 9:19 AM

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You're right, John. Been there, done that with my grandpa... I will never smoke, and with God as my witness, I will do everything within my power to make sure that my boys don't either.

posted by AFSister on March 23, 2007 9:28 AM

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Guys - I got all that. And I hope you don't think, Monte, that I was suggesting you don't love your family by my phrasing. I'm sure you do. But that doesn't mean you can't use love for your family as the incentive to quit.

I'm not going to turn this place into anti-smoking central. I'm not going on a crusade.

But I am making a point that if you lose the cancer lottery - it's not just you that pays the price.

Maggie - I hear that. I understand that. And what you are saying describes my mother, as does what Frank said about his mother.

Mom said she couldn't quit.

But she quit cold turkey the day she donned the cannula.

SWWBO smoked for many years, and still has to avoid certain situations where the behavioral urge is strong.

I'm just doing what I get to do - point out the cost from the other perspective.

If it inspires one person to quit, great.

If it inspires 100 people to quit, better.

If it has no impact at all, s'okay. I got it off my chest.

But the cost of my mother's manner of death and the impact on me is every bit as valid as Monte's right to keep on lighting up.

Thanks for dropping down from the rafters to join the discussion, Monte. I don't recall having seen you in the comments before! So, if nothing else, this post was worth it for that alone.

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 23, 2007 9:36 AM

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I don't smoke. I do chew like a fiend. My wife jokingly refers to me as "Cow". Not because I'm a large individual, but because she says I look like a cow chewing cud all the time.

Lesser of 2 evils? Maybe. Maybe not. At least no one is breathing 2nd hand smoke from me. My clothes and my house don't stink. neither does my truck.

Lost my mothers father to Cancer on my birthday September of 1997. They had removed one lung. He kept on smoking. They removed half of his remaining lung. Kept on smoking. Removed a quarter of what remained and said there was nothing left they could do.

Then he quit. And died 6 days later.

I hear what your saying, it's not the place of the Nanny State to rule the roost as it were but it is a choice that we make.

With the exception of a cigar maybe once a year, I'm not a smoker. Nor do I want to be.

posted by BloodSpite on March 23, 2007 9:50 AM

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I became addicted to nicotine in the late 1960's, working in a radio station where I was the only non-smoker. I was having yet another nicotine fit when someone stuck a lit cigarette in my hand and told me to try it. Bliss.

Took me twenty years to quit. Been about twenty years since my last cigarette now, and -- while I don't have lung cancer yet and there have been other medical problems -- I still get cravings. My doctor says that she thinks it's harder for people to quit smoking, and stay quit, than crack, heroin, or cocaine. It was hard; I ended up first using a random reinforcement program to get rid of the cigarettes, substituting nicotine gum, and then had to get off the nicotine gum, and then off chewing gum.

I'm getting a craving just writing about it.

I wish I could provide some help to others in quitting, or in helping others to help others, but I don't have any. I don't think I could have done it without the patient, non-nagging, encouragement of my wife. Thank you again, Spice!

posted by htom on March 23, 2007 2:23 PM

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I smoked for a few years starting in college, and quit when I met the Hubster. In fact, it is fair to say that I wouldn't be married to him if I hadn't quit.
My Mom started because my Dad smoked, and then he quit, but she did not. I had bugged her about quitting once, and then left it alone because she was so upset by the intimation that she *wanted* to smoke. After her death (not from lung cancer), I discovered from my sister that Mom had actually managed to quit for about 6 months a few years earlier. Unfortunately she had not tossed the last couple of packs into the trash, and when she received a stressful phone call one day ... she had a pack opened and a lit cigarette in her mouth almost by magic. The habits are very, very hard to break.

I'm glad you got this out, John - and I hope that at least one person stops, or never starts, because of it. Good goal.

posted by Barb on March 23, 2007 3:23 PM

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John, I am a NON-SMOKER, Never have. I am a service-connected disabled vet, brain issues. There was one time in the hospital, this poor nurse comes up to me, to get my medical history. You need to realize this woman is efficient in everything she does, to the point of being a fault. She comes to me to do this history. She asks, "Do you smoke?" My answer, "Ma'am, sorry, but I'm not smart enough to smoke." I'm in a Texas military hospital at the time. Did you ever go through the time when you are joking with somebody and you are waiting for the understanding to tricle down to their level. It gets down to her level. In a perfect southern Texas drawl, she says, "S-a-y w-h-a-t?" (You can not believe the temptation to just say, "What", I figured that would have really pushed her over the edge.) Doc, who was standing nearby, walked over and said, "Explain". I said "I have a father who has been tested and found to have an IQ in the top 1%. My brother, a high school drop out, but like my father had an IQ in the top 1%, where my brother worked, he had assistants with their PhD in math from M.I.T. This was confirmed by independent verification. Both of these men smoked, I don't smoke, therefore, I'm not smart enough!" Doc, just belly laughed. The nurse grew a sense of humor.

-Grumpy

posted by Grumpy on March 23, 2007 3:36 PM

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John,

My mom couldn't stop smoking either, but she did.

13 days from when they found the cancer to the end.

My siblings and I don't smoke, never have.

My dad managed to give it up decades ago.

They say that the addiction hits women faster, easier, and harder.

Like you I don't want laws to stop people from smoking, but if they ask me about I'll tell them about 13 days.

posted by KCSteve on March 23, 2007 3:43 PM

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I smoked from the time I was 15 until 29 June 1989, the day I quite cold turkey (had to drink decaf for a few weeks to make it work, but that was it). Haven't had a smoke of any kind, not a puff since. I smoked 2-3 packs of Marlboro reds a day, a good deal of it up in smoke as I let an awful lot burn off. I'd of quit sooner if the Army hadn't made it so cheap, but it's not the Army's fault.

My Dad smoked from his boyhood until he died suddenly of blood clot in his 60s in 1986. Of course, he'd been looking like crap for a while. I was plentypPissed when he died, but only because he did it without warning (as if it was his fault...). My first step father smoked, but he died of a brain tumor when I was 11, he was dying for years. My grandfather died of heart failure, he smoked cigars sometimes. My stepmother died of cancer, she never smoked that I know of. And so on.

I stopped smoking because I realized it was stupid. I was a slave to the demon weed, and I ruined clothes and cars and I stank all the time (but didn't know it), and my house smelled, and I spent money on the smokes and the tools, and I had brown fingers, and yellow teeth, and a wheezed sometimes when I ran (though I did manage to pass my PT test pretty well in spite of it), and so on... Even so, it was stupid.

I have been telling my daughter since she was old enough to hear it that people who smoke are stupid. I make no apologies for that. Anyone who smokes today, knowing what we know, people who take up smoking are morons. People who are addicted may be so, but that's the problem, it's not fun or something they want to do. People who smoke and claim they are doing what the law and God allow them to do are rationalizing. They are still stupid. And unlike John, I don't care what anyone says. If you smoke and you have family (children, especially), then you care more about yourself then you do about them. Period. You can lie to us, you can lie to them, you can lie to yourself, but anything you do that diminishes your life on purpose, and that creates hardship for your family, without good purpose, is selfish and mean. And stupid.

I am not, by the way, an evangelist former smoker. If people want to smoke, that's ok with me, as long as I don't have to share the smoke anymore. If people want to stink of smoke, that's fine, but I reserve the right to ask them to move away from me just as I would if an unwashed person sat down next to me while I was eating (and trust me, smokers, the smell of a fresh burnt cigarette is as bad as an unwashed body, except I can smell a smoker coming or walking by on the other side of the cubical wall, whereas most dirty people only smell bad if you get close). And if you think I am making it up, just ask any non-smoker who isn't afraid to tell you the truth.

And if you smoke in your car, take a razor to the inside of the windshield sometime. Or a white handkerchief. Smoker's cars stink. And they are filthy (unless they work hard to get rid of that)...

I agree that people have the right to smoke. In their houses, where there are no children, who are being abused by secondhand smoke no less than if they were being fed tainted meat. My parents smoked, I smoked, my wife smoked.. Hell everyone in my generation smoked, if not tobacco, then pot, but I don't smoke anymore, and my wife doesn't smoke, and my daughter knows full well that her favorite uncle who chewed and smoked for years was STUPID!! He did all of that until he was diagnosed last November with stage 4 lymphoma, and everyone including my daughter got really distraught! Fortunately, Anderson in Houston was able to help him (thanks be to God), and so now my daughter has an example of the bad and the good. And as for my brother-in-law, well he used to get angry when I told my daughter he was stupid for smoking, now he just agrees... And he's glad he'll get to see his two granddaughters (one under 2, the other newborn) maybe grow up a little more.

People who smoke when they don't have to are stupid. I make no apologies for saying so, I don't care if anyone likes it. I smoked for almost two decades. I can say whatever the hell I like about people like me.

If you are offended and you hate me, but you stop, then hate me. If you just get mad, but keep on smoking, well, I might yet find I have cancer from all the smoking I did do, but my daughter will never have any reason to be angry at me for caring more about my stupid filthy habit than I do about her.

posted by Sanger on March 23, 2007 10:54 PM

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Addiction is addiction no matter it a line of coke or a stick of tobacco or something else. It takes some real mental strength to escape it. I am fortunate I had enough strength to evade entering it because that is not as hard then.

I'm not that quick to judge the addicted. For one thing I am not free of all addiction and for another I have evidenced just because you snort a line doesn't mean you're stupid. Just because you puff a cigar doesn't mean you don't love your family. An alcoholic may not necessarily be evil. What it does mean is a certain limit of inner vision a weakness among what may be many strengths.

Good call tho John perhaps you will awaken just one of your readers and save a family's early heartache. Most, tho will have trouble not being irritated by a truth thrown in an unwilling face.

posted by Trias on March 24, 2007 4:07 AM

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While the risk is not usually as dramatic as the case with smoking, all of us make choices that may end up making our lives either shorter or longer. What we eat, where we live, what hobbies we pursue, what kind of car we drive, etc. And if you start making all these choices out of some mistaken obligation to extend your lives at any cost, we very quickly end up not having much of a life at all.

posted by Stormy Dragon on March 24, 2007 12:47 PM

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And I'm just laying out potential consequences, that some people don't consider, based on hard recent experience.

I'm not making anyone do anything.

And I'm not going to persuade anyone who just can't let it go.

But if I get to one waverer, then my work here has exceeded expectation.

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 24, 2007 2:29 PM

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Really, really well said. Brutal honesty always makes writing so much more powerful.

posted by R.H. Potfry on March 24, 2007 5:53 PM

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Say what you will Trias--but my goal is to make it perfectly clear to my currently non-smoking daughter that smoking is not cool, it is not a fashion choice, it is just plain stupid. As I said, if people want to smoke, fine, so long as I don't have to share the smoke--and BTW, I ALWAYS asked before I lit one up, which is far from the case these days. And my daughter will see that I lead by example, not by decree.

As for this: "all of us make choices that may end up making our lives either shorter or longer....if you start making...choices out of some mistaken obligation to extend your lives at any cost" This is irrellevent and besides the point. I am not talking about undue avoidance of danger, or prolonging life at any cost, and it is NOT a mistaken obligation if we are talking about the obligation one has to at least be honest with the people who care about you. If you are addicted to something, say so, explain it as such, and accept that you are a slave to the weakness inside. But don't try to pass off something as nasty as smoking as a lifestyle choice just because you don't want to admit you have a problem. My brother in law is full of those clever little common wisdom items that go against the grain of common sense in pursuit of a need to not be told what to do. He never wears seat belts either (I am alive because of seat belts), and he wouldn't wear a helmet (another brother in law is alive because of a MC helmet), and he smoked because he 'wanted to,' and because he didn't "need noone telling him what to do." Except he has four sons who adore him, and a wife who will be lost without him, and two new grand daughters, and at least one niece who idolizes him. Is it a mistaken obligation to care about those folks? I know that is not your point, but your point went off on a tangent that had zip to do with smoking and the choices people make.

And Trias: I could hardly disagree more with this: "just because you snort a line doesn't mean you're stupid." Of course you are. I did all sort of things when I was younger and STUPID, that I would never do now. I drank myself stupid more than a few times. I did a variety of drugs and that was stupid too. Just because a person doesn't want to admit he's an idiot doesn't mean he's not. Anyone who snorts a line (of anything worth snorting) is really pretty stupid by almost any standard.

And as for this: "Just because you puff a cigar doesn't mean you don't love your family." True. But if you know that puffing that cigar is going to make life harder for your family--even if there is only a pretty good chance that's true-- and still you persist, then you absolutely care more about yourself and your pleasures than about your family--OR you are an addict and you need help.

And I never said anything about anyone being evil, and I wasn't talking about alcohol, which is a much different kind of problem than smoking, though a lot of people try to compare them.

In fact, some addictions are problems right now; like alcoholism, gambling, heroin, and crack. Others are potential time-bombs, like unprotected sex with multiple partners (especiall if you are a young girl and haven't had the cervical cancer immunization), or smoking... No matter how one tries to dress it up, smoking is a dirty habit that causes problems for the smoker from the first puff, and for the smoker's loved ones in the long run.

And finally, I challenge any long term smoker to say he or she has never burned a table edge or table top with a burning butt, has never ruined at least one good dress or pair of pants with a bruning ash, has never set fire to something unintended while lighting a smoke, or when tossing one, has never had brown fingers, stained teeth, brown crap coming out of his or her mouth and nose, and so on ad nauseum. A person can claim it's a choice all he or she wants, but what hard-core cigarette smoker would take up smoking again if he or she could live to do it all over again? Only the stupidest, as far as I'm concerned.

And again, I do not apologize for that.

posted by SangerM on March 24, 2007 11:59 PM

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SangerM i have no idea why you have linked me as though i have claimed smoking was cool or a fashion choice. I made no such claim.

You seem unable to differentiate between stupid people and the stupid actions of people.

Alcoholism is an addiction too not a different kind of problem at all. What are the details for your claim that it is different?

Your goal of protecting your daughter from this vile addiction is noble enough but you should know by now taking the moral high ground won't win wars with teens. They know many of your darkest features already. Worse still calling people stupid might make you feel brave and you can even be right but ask your self the obvious question. "Will someone you just called stupid be likely to do what you want?"

John's approach is better because he knows this already.

posted by Trias on March 25, 2007 5:27 AM

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John
Same happened to my mom and I also hope your message stops at least one person.
However I would like to see the weed eradicated, because one could grow a damn healty crop of tomatoes for example in the same plot that tobacco grows in. At least they help prevent cancer.

posted by RobC on March 25, 2007 12:22 PM

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Please note: I've done what I could to make this less 'personal' but it's not as easy as when responding to someone whose arguments actually make sense and pertain to the subject at hand.

Trias wrote: "You seem unable to differentiate between stupid people and the stupid actions of people."

How does me talking about smoking translate into your assumption about my ability to differentiate between one thing and another, eh? You've assumed that because I choose to call smoking stupid I don't know the difference between one kind of stupid and another. In fact, it's you who doesn't seem to know the difference because there IS NO DIFFERENCE if a stupid action is taken with knowledge 'aforehand that the action is stupid and is likely to have negative consequences. Stupid is as stupid does.

And just to be clear, that's not me trying to be brave, that's me calling it like I see it. And these are my opinions, remember. I'm not trying to make you see things my way, or change anyone's behavior, I'm just saying what I believe.

And as for "moral high ground," that's not the issue here at all. This isn't about morals or 'winning' something, it's about health and long-term welfare. More to the point, I'm not at war with my daughter. We may not always agree, but she knows my focus is her welfare, not her control. You can believe this or not, but she comes to me or my wife for advice about every subject imaginable, and she gets straight, no holds barred answers, about whatever she is old enough to ask about (and I mean everything). We don't give 'pointers' of an inappropriate kind, of course, but we don't mince words about health, hygiene, finances, death, sex, or whatever else have you. And we don't sugarcoat or hide things. She doesn't always like the answers, but in our time together neither my wife nor I have ever once told her "because I said so," and I've never told her it was ok for me to do something wrong, but not ok for her (which makes it pretty hard when I try to explain that my foul mouth is not something she wants to cultivate).

With my child and with this SPECIFIC topic, the issues are plain and clear. I used to smoke, I don't smoke anymore, I tell my daughter that people who smoke (and especially people who take up smoking now, knowing what the odds for pain are) are stupid, even though they may be the smartest people walking, or even if you love them, as I did my stepfather.

My daughter may yet smoke, I can't stop that, but she's known since day one that I disapprove strongly of smoking, and that if she ever takes up smoking, 1) I will think she's stupid too, 2) she will never be allowed to smoke in my house, and 3) if her home stinks, I am going to tell her so, and probably not go there very often, just as I don't visit friends' houses now if the house stinks badly from smoke.

As for validation, well, I just this minute asked my daughter "what do you think about people who smoke?" (I had to assure her it was not a trick question--any answer is ok) Her answer: "They're retarded." Said with that little question lilt teen girls put at the end of a sentence they think is too dumb to answer in the first place. Duh, Dad...

I rest my case. The issue is smoking. I think people who smoke are stupid. So does my daughter (at least today). That's all I care about.

Moral high ground indeed. That was just silly.

And so was this, too, actually: "They know many of your darkest features already. Worse still calling people stupid might make you feel brave and you can even be right but ask your self the obvious question. Will someone you just called stupid be likely to do what you want?"

What on earth are you talking about here? Do you think I just go around telling people they should quit smoking? Do you think I care? I don't talk to people about smoking unless they encroach on my breathing space, or we are friends, and even then I don't ever tell people they should quit, I just ask them to move downwind or not make me share the smoke.

I have numerous friends and relatives who smoke, they know how I feel, but I don't berate them, I don't argue with them, I don't pretend I'm their parent or their God, and I never, ever tell anyone they should quit. I smoked for 18 years. Who am I to tell anyone to quit or try to convince them they should?

I talk about me, when it comes up. I tell people I used to smoke, but I don't anymore, and that I thought it was stupid to smoke when it cost so much and had so many negative consequences and NO good ones. I also tell them, if the conversation allows, what I've told my daughter about people who smoke. So far, NO ONE has ever disagreed with me!! And most have said that's the best thing I could do. And I don't have a single friend who thinks smoking is better than not smoking, or who wouldn't quit if he or she could (or hasn't tried to quit).

And finally, this comment: "John's approach is better because he knows this already." John's approach to what?!? What is it that you think he and I are trying to do, but that he is doing better than I am?

Seems to me, Trias, you wrapped a great many biased assumptions around my comments, apparently based on a mistaken understanding of why I wrote what I wrote. For example, I didn't say you "claimed smoking was cool or a fashion choice." I said my goal is to make it perfectly clear to my currently non-smoking daughter that smoking is not cool, it is not a fashion choice, it is just plain stupid." The key is the stupid part, in opposition to the messages she gets from her schoolmates or from the media (and that we got when I was young) that smoking is cool, or hip, or goes with your latest chic dress or music, etc.

Does that make more sense now or are you going to go off on another goofy tangent about some other supposed flaw in my character or personality?

posted by SangerM on March 25, 2007 6:49 PM

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SangerM you are certainly quick to bring me into the replys for no good reason. Why, since fashion has nothing to do with it?

That's no assumption. You made it quite clear. But I do note you haven't talked about telling your friends they are stupid. I wonder if you do and why you like to have stupid friends. One wonders should any of them do something smart one day they would still be stupid because 'stupid is as stupid' does.

So why is alcoholism different?

I admit i assumed you were attempting to prevent your daughter from smoking in the context that she wanted to smoke. It would seem I am wrong so you're pretty much preaching to the choir. Thus my comments about how you could approach it are irrelevant and it also seems you are only talking about your concern for your daughter and don't care about anyone else in this matter.

Despite what you think SangerM, i have no real interest in your flaws or strengths of personality etc. I'm not trying to make this personal.

posted by Trias on March 26, 2007 2:31 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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Well, here I went and deleted a lot of the old joke posts last weekend to free up some disk space... and along comes Princess Crabby renewing one!

BWA-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

On the internet, everything is new. To someone.

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 23, 2007 2:48 PM

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Did the other one say "Kisses....Princess Crabby"? No? I didn't think so! This one is better based on that alone.

posted by Maggie on March 23, 2007 2:53 PM

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This is one catlick skoolgurl who has *no* self-esteem issues!

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 23, 2007 3:32 PM

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i wonder what are the chances of finding a Republican on an unimproved un-named road, just south of two bldgs with a "Y" shaped driveway, west of the railway and Route 67, just south of the town of Mertzon,TX (in Irion County)?

(dang it, i do love GPS and Google Earth)

posted by MajMike on March 26, 2007 10:16 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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So, how do we help Yon?

posted by FbL on March 23, 2007 9:56 AM

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Publish. Push the story.

That's all we can do.

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 23, 2007 10:03 AM

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As smart as General Petreaus is, and given what I'm told of his knowledge of how to fight this kind of war, I foresee a certain two-star getting an ass-ripping from the CG.

If I were Petreaus (and assuming he has the authority), I'd fire the a$$hole. How the hell does someone become a flag officer, let alone one in such an important position, with such a fundamental lack of understanding of the big picture?

posted by Heartless Libertarian on March 23, 2007 10:47 AM

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God save us from staff weenies like this one-star.

Assuming Yon is in the right, dragging said general's actions out in the light is a good move. Guys like that thrive on back-room payback and are masters at leveraging their power over others in Machiavellian ways. Publicly exposing this move for the cynical, manipulative, political gutpunch that it is should be sufficient to make the general back down.

But he won't forget... these types never do. Yon will need to watch his back from this point on; to these guys, public humiliation and questioning of their authority are unforgiveable sins.

posted by TheNewGuy on March 23, 2007 12:07 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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John - Well I woke up this morning and saw that the thread of the 21st had a life of it's own.

I will pontificate shortly on my one point that seemed to draw the most argument; i.e. All the Islamists understand is power. First, I must have another cup of coffee and contemplate these mysteries in context

posted by Oldloadr on March 23, 2007 8:52 AM

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To answer those who questioned or took exception to my comments:
1. What is an Islamist? I believe that an Islamist is a radical ideologue who truly believes he/she is doing the will of Allah by killing all who won’t convert, particularly Christians, or those from the part of the world known historically as Christendom. Of course, they only want to kill Jews, they have no interest in converting them (that goes back to a 3,000 year old sibling rivalry). How do I know this? Because they have said it themselves in their own propaganda. They have acted on these impulses and have argued among themselves on technique. Many Muslim scholars took exception with bin Laden for not giving the people in the WTC a chance to convert before cooking them to death. Although, I did not check the source where I got 10% of Muslims are radicalized, I accepted that based on my personal observations in the ME. That means whether we like it or not, the real inconvenient truth of our age is that 100 million people want to kill us if we don’t denounce our belief system and convert. See, that’s not complex, it’s simple. Now the smoke screen they put up (and that is all that it is) is that we are in the ME stealing their oil, that we support Israel’s right to exist, that we are not fair to the Palestinians (even though they themselves are not fair to them either). They bring up these points to confuse us and to sometimes inflame their followers, but the simple truth is our governments allow us to worship Jesus Christ (or not) and to drink alcohol and eat a ham sandwich.
2. I stand by my statement that all they understand is power. I could talk about the troubles in Fallujah for instance. The Army tried all of their “hearts and minds” tactics and all they got for it was dead GIs. The USMC finally got fed up and trashed the town and now it’s the safest (relative term) in Anbar. I could also mention my last active duty deployment to the ME. The USAF deployed 3 B-1B bombers to this base. Now for those of you who know anything about B-1’s, they don’t have to deploy and have launched air strikes from their CONUS bases. However, the idea was for the leadership of certain ME countries to “see” the power before they felt it. I think that is psychologically significant and nascent to my point.
OK, I’m done now and thanks for the b’day wishes, everyone!
See Maggie, I used spell-check…

posted by Oldloadr on March 23, 2007 9:48 AM

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I need to add my 2 cents worth on this “hot “ subject , 1st let me introduce myself I’m Oldloadr’s wife number 2, but in a past life I lived and worked in baghdad pre gulf war, coming from Ireland and the deep distrust of anything other than catholic teaching it was a breath of fresh air that we could all get along in a strange country, yes we had our moments of disagreements but were always able to share a beer at the end of the night , and while it was the birthplace of the Christian movement it was also steeped in history of multicultural facets. Being the gate way to both east and west, we were treated very well as western women, which didn’t happen in other Arab countries that I worked in. But, we were always aware that at any time we could find ourselves in jail should we cross the line , as happened to a few of my friends when they made the mistake of helping to gather information considered sensitive, We were allowed and encouraged to practice our respective religions, never were approached to convert which was the case in Saudi Arabia .The Iraqi people treated us with great respect and were very grateful for all we did for them , I was a nurse/midwife in a private hospital that Saddam set up so his people wouldn’t have to leave the country to get high class treatment but that was also a doubled edge sword as he didn’t want anyone in the western world to find out what he was up to , we were never naive enough not to realize this so we learned very quickly to look ,listen and say very little and that kept us below the security radar, We knew /saw a lot of things that were happening to the ordinary people that were inhumane , cruel and barbaric, but when I tried to tell people outside of the country I was dismissed as a “dumb Blond” even dumb blonds can see /hear and report as ordered !!!! My point is, it’s not the rank and file Iraqis that are the problem, but the corrupt politicians and foreign religious fanatics who are causing all of the problems.

posted by POT on March 23, 2007 9:55 AM

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Oh, now I want to call Oldloadr "Kettle" for some reason!

Welcome, V2.0! An Irish Blonde - 'loadr you sly divil you!

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 23, 2007 10:06 AM

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yeap he is the kettle that keeps the pot hot, tea anyone????

posted by POT on March 23, 2007 10:15 AM

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Tea? *perk!*

Aye lass, if'n I didn't like Loadr so much I'd have to run away with you to a far blue mountain for a good cup of strong black tea!!!

err....uhm....anyway

I've been doing a bunch of debates lately mostly at Stephens place (thats what happens your stuck at home 24/7 I guess) and I have stuff I want to interject on the 21st debate...but I'm afraid I'll say it wrong. I'll sort it out and try to put in my .02 sometime.

Blog-Burn out maybe? I really need to go fishing.

posted by BloodSpite on March 23, 2007 10:38 AM

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Guess this just petered out after starting with a firestorm...

Hmmmm....

posted by Oldloadr on March 24, 2007 9:12 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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Considering that Bill knows what kind of headaches I get, and at what point I come to a full and complete stop... DAMN. not to mention the "evacuation procedures" that follow the headache.

*shudder*

(the BAD kind of shudder)

posted by Were-Kitty on March 23, 2007 9:34 AM

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Oh this brings back some bad memories, BTW Grape Nehi mixes well with the old keister-plaster, maybe it was a Navy thing......

posted by Old Fat Sailor on March 23, 2007 10:22 PM

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Oh man... that takes me back to Desert Shield.

During the build up my unit had only been in Daharan, Saudi Arabia, for about three weeks. We were stuck at a -- 10,000 +/- man -- camp called Cement City. We called it Semen City, but that's a different story. HEH!

Anyway, so many people came down with a similar bug that at least two Combat Support Hospitals were flooded with troops within 72 hours. It seems that the 4 hole out-houses were a tad to close to the mess tent and the flies were going back and forth, back and forth. In fact, the only way to keep the flies off your food was to liberally coat everything with Tobasco, or some other brand of, hot sauce.

There I was, filling sand bags with the rest of my platoon, when in a matter of minutes it hit me, and most of the rest of us. With a great portion of the troops of Cement City to soon follow.

The first sign was just a headache. The second sign, within 10 minutes, was the involuntary evacuation of your stomach and bowels at the exact same instant.

YEAH!! Projectile puking and rocket booster shits in the same instant... nasty, wet, stinking, and uncontrollable.

It was a mess, to say the least.

By the time I got to the clinic I was so dehydrated that they couldn't get an IV started and I couldn't hold even a sip of water down.

Sip, heave, puke, spasm, shit, heave, puke, spasm, shit... sip, repeat!

By the time I got to the CaSH my temp was approaching 105 and I was packed in ice.

Later -- about 5 days later -- the doc told me that they had induced a coma to keep me in the ice as long as possible and reduce the chance of brain swelling and injury. After seven days in the CaSH I was deemed fit for duty.

Worst sickness I've ever had, and I don't even remember 75% of my hospital stay. LOL

V5

posted by V5 on March 23, 2007 10:35 PM

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V5 - You guys weren't acclimatized yet, which is why you dehydrated so fast. You'd have been just as miserable if it hit you at the six month mark, but it would have taken at least 12 hours to shrivel you up.

Now imagine bouncing in a helicopter with all that going on -- uuhhhhhmm -- going out...

posted by BillT on March 24, 2007 12:20 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The UAVs (oops, can't call 'em UAVs anymore - they're now Unmanned Aerial Systems... some Colonel got his Legion of Merit for that change...), er, um UAS's we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".

� Secure this line!

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If I may pontificate, just a bit: In my experience with the VA as both a client and a school certifying official I have come to several conclusions I would like to express:
1. The VA is staffed by government civilians, most, but not all are veterans themselves, but all are in the civil service system. This means that personal performance is a personal choice. We all know that it is far easier to discharge a military member than to fire a government employee. In dealing with veteran-students seeking vocational rehabilitation (which is conditional on a disability rating), I found the system to be arbitrary and precocious. Whether or not a veteran received voc-rehab benefits for his/her chosen field of study depended entirely on which counselor they saw. There were 2 responsible for the region I was working in and they had totally opposite attitudes: One thought the money was coming out of her own pocket; the other seemed to wake up every morning looking for something good to do for a veteran. Guess which one I told all of my students to make their appointments with.
2. I ended up not pursuing any kind of disability since I was going to school and having trouble getting the VA to respond to both my Education needs and my disability claim, I chose to pursue straightening out my education situation (since the college insisted on being paid for their efforts). By the time I had finished my Masters degree, I had contacted my congressman so many time that his aide eventually told me to not even bother calling the VA 800 number, but to contact his office first with any future problems. The first problem I had was being a Viet Nam era veteran who chose to stay on active duty for 24 years. By the time I had retired, most of the VA staff had forgotten how to process our claims as the Montgomery GI bill omitted dependant stipends, which all previous GI bills contained. Anyway, the regional office in Atlanta lost my dependant certification 4 times. Actually, they didn’t lose it, they just kept throwing it away since they thought it only applied to voc-rehab students. Of course, when the 5th one showed up under the congressman’s cover letter, money instantly materialized in my checking account.
Now I know the discussion was about health care, but my point is the problem is VA wide and systemic.
The funding issue, I think goes back to competing constituencies and giving money to the entitlement class fits a lot of people’s agenda better than keeping promises to those who have honorably served.

posted by Oldloadr on March 22, 2007 8:27 AM

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BS - I'm sorry for your loss.

posted by Maggie on March 22, 2007 8:34 AM

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Mags-> Thanks. I wish I could say I knew her well, or personally, but I didn't. Passed a few E-mails with her, new of her work with NRO, and watched/read a lot of her confrontation with the LAT, but beyond that I knew her less than I know folks here. Still, good people however.

On the VA thing.
I've never even bothered to be checked for a disability rating. For one thing I can work, so I see no reason to take money from someone who actually needs it. That being said I was never examined during my discharge process by the VA, even though it was a Involuntary/Medical discharge

Would I get it? I don't know. But what I do know is it's probably not worth the fight. I will say that my local VA Hospital has been outstanding. I've heard rumors that they are ranked highly, but I've never seen anything conclusive for me to tout them.

However both the quality of care, (Hell my Doctor actually has called me at home several times to see how I'm doing, remind me to take my med's and see if there was anything else I needed for him to do or follow up care) and for the most part they do things pretty fast (I was examined by Ortho on this past Monday. I already have an MRI appointment today.)

That being said we used to refer to the VA Hospital outside of Atlanta on the 285 perimeter as "The Butcher Shop" so I guess it really is variable on where you are.

posted by BloodSpite on March 22, 2007 8:45 AM

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Bloodspite - you aren't taking money from someone who needs it regarding the disability payments, it's not like there's a fixed pool.

And if your disability affects your life, or life expectancy, then you *earned* it. Not quite the same thing as a handout.

Regarding VA medical care - it is spotty, and there are places where great things are done. Eisenhower Medical Center in Leavenworth is considered a pretty good (if limited) hospital. Truman Medical Center down in KC, has in the past been a roach-infested cesspool.

Guess which one the VA periodically wants to close?

That said - the logic is that Truman is closer to a larger number of veterans, which certainly is a supportive argument - if we believed they would fix the problems at Truman.

As for VA medical care, even though I am a priority 1, "must see" client of the VA, because I have other options available to me, I choose to not use the VA, so there are that many more appointments available to the space available veterans with no other good options.

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 22, 2007 9:08 AM

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I had already read some of Cathy's stuff, in particular about different people driving her to treatments. I remember being so grateful that I have my sisters and the rest of my family. Everyone should have a support network. We have one out here and I am grateful for that too.

posted by Maggie on March 22, 2007 9:29 AM

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"Who's been minding the store?" said Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., a member of the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee.

Kind of sad how much that says, isn't it?

posted by KCSteve on March 22, 2007 1:12 PM

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KCSteve - I am constantly embarassed that my fellow Washingtonians sent Murray back to the Senate, especially after her goofy statement about OBL years ago. This one just demonstrates her complete cluelessness.

posted by Barb on March 22, 2007 2:22 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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Well,

I never like to be found wrong but I'm glad I was mistaken this time. Like I said I was oblivious to the whole thing until I saw that comic. I guess that's what I get for believing something written by a guy who draws talking dogs and cats.

I'm definitely a dog person. I don't have anything against cats, I just don't have anything for them either.

My wife and I have two dogs, Rusty, a long legged chihuahua and Penny, a miniature dachshund. Since we work different shifts the dogs keep us company when the other is at work.
I know how strongly I'm bonded with my dogs. I can't even begin to fathom how strongly someone must get to a dog that has saved their life. Thanks for setting me straight.

posted by NevadaDailySteve on March 22, 2007 9:34 AM

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It's not Ft. Benning-ish, but the Clermont County, OH war memorial pays special tribute to dogs who have served and/or were killed while serving the US military. When I mentioned it to John a couple of years ago, when I first noticed it, he immediately said "Well, SURE there's a memorial! There's a lot more, too, including the big one at Ft. Benning."

I was very surprised- and glad- to hear the news. And now, thanks to Steve, I know I wasn't alone thinking that war dogs didn't get the credit they deserved!

posted by AFSister on March 22, 2007 12:42 PM

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There is also a section of the Quartermaster Museum in Ft. Lee dedicated to not only the wardogs, but horses and other animals used by the military.

posted by Raging_Dave on March 22, 2007 2:17 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The UAVs (oops, can't call 'em UAVs anymore - they're now Unmanned Aerial Systems... some Colonel got his Legion of Merit for that change...), er, um UAS's we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".

� Secure this line!

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Poor dog did it's duty. fine dog. wonder how well it was trained? maybe it needed more doggie snacks.

posted by kat-missouri on March 21, 2007 10:24 AM

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Gad, Kat, that seems a little flip, all things considered.

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 21, 2007 10:29 AM

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Not intended. That's what I get for posting while the phone is ringing non stop and answering email.

No way to explain it except my short sentences would be very long like, the dog was with a consulting firm and I wonder how well he was trained if he didn't detect an IED that they were close enough to get blown up? Mainly thinking about that because it seems like we have "outsourced" a huge part of this war and that seemed odd to have a bomb sniffing dog from a consulting firm clearing the path.

The dog dying is not a flip concern. It almost seemed like a waste if this consulting firm is a bunch of BS half-a$$ers. All things considered with the Pentagon, I wouldn't bet my life that they were "experts" before they became bomb clearers.

Second comment was me thinking on the keyboard about k-9 units we support. Shouldn't even been on the comments.

Again, what I get for typing while answering the phone and reading email at the same time.

Feel free to delete it.

posted by kat-missouri on March 21, 2007 2:06 PM

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Ah, stream of consciousness with interruptions. Productive of many a 'ohnosecond'.

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 21, 2007 2:57 PM

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The Iraqi terrs seem to be cribbing more and more from the VC Playbook. Time to start watching for two-wheeled VBIEDs...

posted by BillT on March 21, 2007 3:23 PM

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Bill, they've already gone that route in Afghanistan: RIP Private David Byers, 2 PPCLI, Corporal Shane Keating, 2 PPCLI, Corporal Keith Morley, 2 PPCLI, and Corporal Glen Arnold, 2 Field Ambulance, all killed September 18th, 2006 in Panjwaii by a creep on a bike, may he rot in hell.

posted by Damian on March 21, 2007 4:06 PM

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On my wall at work I have a small tribute to man's best friend by Darby Conley who does the Get Fuzzy comic strip. I can't read the date on it but it was a year or so ago. Titled Dogs in War it says:
More than 100,000 dogs served in the U.S. military in the 20th century, but to date there is no war dogs monument. 2 notable war dogs were:

Stubby, WWI. A stray, Stubby was smuggled to France aboard a troop ship. He served in many large battles, was wounded, captured a German spy single-handedly, located wounded sloldiers, and in one instance alerted his soldiers to a surprise mustard gas attack. He is the most decorated war dog in U.S. history.

Chips, WWII. During the invasion of Sicily, Chips stormed an enemy machine gun pillbox, cornering 4 soldiers. Later that night he helped capture 10 more. He was awarded the Purple Heart and the Silver Star for valor.

I never thought about dogs having their own war memorial until I read that. Having seen it, I can't imagine why they don't.

posted by NevadaDailySteve on March 21, 2007 5:51 PM

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Another day, another bunch of stuff:

First to get tickets to visit the capitol--by 1030, was able to get the 1330 tickets, so to the American Indian Musuem... is a very nice place, very well done, extremely repectful and dignified, very enjoyable.... Right up until the last display on the top floor, at the very end. A wall full of rifles, starting in elder days, stretching all the way to modern day, with an Ak47, Uzis, M16, etc.. Captions: Typical, pathetic, eyore tripe about how the indians were overwhelmed by people with weapons like these, and how such weapons are even today being used on 'indigenous' peoples (yes, they said that)...

Screw 'em. I took pictures of the weapons, I'll post them when I get back. Best part was a couple of young boys, not sure what color or race they were, gaping at the guns, talking about the best ones for maximum destructiveness, asked me if I was 'into guns' 'cause I identified the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine, which they had cross ID'd. Ha... Typical teen boys, looking at guns and thinking cool! How do we kill the enemy! Now THAT's my kind of kid! And they didn't give a rip about the message, as was 100% APPROPRIATE.

The museum was nice, and the stuff inside was well done, but in my mind, the people responsible for the place prostituted themselves at the shrine of victimhood. They showed a lot that was great, and much that was interesting, but they tainted it all by reminding everyone that they were really nothing in the face of the murderous white men, that their culture, and their society, and their entire way of life was worth nothing, except in relation to the loss of it all because they could not resist the onslaught--even when they used white men's weapons...

To be honest, this turned out to be a grave dissappointment, but not unexpected. I just wish the place hadn't lived down to my expectations.

From there to the capitol. What can I say. Worth the trip to see the rotunda with my own eyes, but otherwise a complete waste of time. 40 minutes in line, having snotty guards demand emptied pockets, acting like TSA folks talking as if you are not standing there--just so much cattle, only to be herded into a 'corner' of the rotunda where a docent (very knowledgable fellow, actually) talks very loudly to be heard over the other 10 groups in other 'corners' of the rotunda, where he talked about the statues, the dome, the floor, the statues, the dome, the statues, and some paintings. Then hustled into the next room to see the gimmick of the whispering ceiling.. duh. more statues, nice roof, then downstairs to be completely overwhelmed by the hubbub... Then told, "bathrooms are that way, exit is that way, thanks for coming." NOT what I had expected, though I'm not sure what I expected. On the other hand it was rather like a circus, so maybe that was appropriate. All in all a mild disappointment, but that may be my fault rather than not. Oh... gallery tours are a different set of tickets.. duh.

Then to the Museum of moder art. Calder Mobile and a LOT of junk called art. I just can't believe it. I'm not talking about Pollack's nonsense, but real junk pretending to be art. All I could think of was that the artists must have walked off laughing at the fact that someone paid them to do this stuff. Really, I could hear the cackling in the mists, if you will... And so much space and such a big building to house such a small amount of stuff. I've been here before, BTW, but I don't recall it being full of junk art. You just can't imagine... not even as good as Worhol, just plain dumba$$ crap on the walls. Feh.

So it was pretty much 3 for 3 today, so we went back by the navy memorial enroute back to the hotel, stopped at a Tappa bar (first time for that, was just plain excellent food, and I like the format, though tappas (lots of small plates full of what I would call pu-pus, order a couple of dishes per person and then share... Was excellent though, and I would do it again.. made the day

And here I am. Tomorrow, to the memorials, maybe the white house, though no tour because we didn't arrange it with our Senator 3 months ago, and maybe a bus tour of Georgetown. Then Friday to the Natural History museum ('cause it's supposed to rain then)...

More as we see it...

V/R

posted by sangerM on March 21, 2007 8:57 PM

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That screed by "Dan" is the dumbest, nastiest thing I've read in a long time. He cheers ethnic cleansing in Baghdad, when US troops say that's what they're working to prevent.

Just clueless, thuggish, nationalist chest-thumping. Really sad.

posted by OD on March 21, 2007 10:33 PM

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Owen, what are you talking about? Where do you get 'ethnic cleansing' out of 'we have done what nobody else has done'?

Let me be clear here: you go in guns blazing like you did you're bound to get a poor reception.

Secular is good and always good? Arab Nationalism and Baathism is soooo much better than then Sharia(even though they themselves are replete with jingoism)? Give me a break. And let's not even go near the symantics(are stability and combat ops the same thing?)

You don't agree with it? Fine. But don't go around insulting people, Owen. There's a fine line between being opposition and being a class A jerk. Look at it this way: you're proll'y mighty proud of the Falklands, but I know a ton of people who can say exactly what you said about that war as this one. Disagreement does not in itself bestow righteousness(as most of those are twits and the jury is still out on Iraq).

Really, if you're going to go after Dan why don't you go on over and flame TPM Barnett too? Dan's a real accolyte of Barnett. There's little that Dan says that doesn't flow or get seconded by Barnett. Go on. Go play with a heavy weight instead of picking on graduate students who study this stuff for a living(which Dan is). I wouldn't be surprised if Dan's knowledge wasn't as good as or better than your own wrt conflicts and international relations.

You're making me look bad, since you rode in on my link, and that really is what's torquing me. You slid on over from here. The Rulz should still be in effect, Owen---attack the message and not the messenger instead of the ad hominem you used. Play nice or don't play at all, particularly with a guy who is just getting over his dad dying from a freak heart attack(which Dan is).

So lighten up. Here's a virtual beer and have a virtual seat. Man.

posted by ry on March 22, 2007 4:41 AM

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ry - I guess I'm just dense or am too constrained by my paradigm, but I don't see what OD saw in Dan's original post you linked above. What am I missing.
BTW, I wish the conversation on Arab NCOs would have gone on a bit more and thank you for bringing up more antidotal evidence that validated my point. Between us, we mentioned 4 data points; as you know it takes 3 to make a trend... (that bit of statistical knowledge shows that your tax dollars weren't wasted on my GI Bill education) (LOL)

posted by Oldloadr on March 22, 2007 6:54 AM

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Ry, every now and then I think you've either had too much coffee or too little sleep or too--well too much or too little of _something_.

Dan's stuff was maybe not 'screed' but it was insulting and it was oversimplified. Great rhetoric though, grand images, large thoughts, etc... and maybe OD did take away from it a bit more than Dan intended, but _I_ can see behind the words the implied 'destruction of cultures' message, why can't you?

Dan did write: "The Byzantine Emperor, in all his glory, could not do that. The Mongol Horde, in all their glory, could not do that. But Bush did it, all while amusing himself by putting the Shia's sponsor -- Iran -- on the defensive. Bush did it while proving the Shia themselves were powerless."

What a load of bloated & insulting crap. Bush amusing himself? And you have no problem with that?

And: "Imagine if Stalin had not stopped at Prussia, but had cleared Vienna of German domination, forever. That is the scale of Bush's work in Iraq."

And THAT was just plain STUPID. And the guy who wrote it needs a history lesson or two, at least, about Germany, Russia, AND Iraq, which was a cobbled together country in the first place!

So how does that set with you, Ry. Was I insulting enough for you to call ME a class A jerk?

You know, what you wrote was far more insulting, directly to OD, than what he wrote, indirectly, about Dan. I'd say you ought to follow your own rules. Also, just so you know, I have been pretty much skipping over your posts to H&I Fires for some time. Your comments lack, I dunno, precision and focus, and they are often bitter-feeling. Which is not to say I'm Mr. Sunshine, but then I haven't taken post position on the site either. You post the stuff, do you now feel the need to defend harshly the posts you link to? Did you take it personally?

I'm sure other feel very different--as is their right and wont, but I'd say you really need a break.

posted by sangerM on March 22, 2007 7:43 AM

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Sigh, fellas, calm down.

Dan could have chosen better words if he was trying to convince, rather than inflame, true enough.

And the discussion of 'ethnic cleansing' that Owen brought up is indicative of how slippery the term can be, not to mention emotive, and his usage is directly informed by how Owen looks at the world, the bias he brings to the reading.

I can see why Owen, with his oft-laid out here worldview, could go down that path, while I, with my biases, didn't quite take that fork.

Owen read it as "cleanse the Sunni from Baghdad" I read it as "upset the balance of power, tranferring it to the majority Shia" in a way that had not been done before.

I *suspect* Dan didn't quite mean what Owen was after, and was more after what I took away from it - but therein lies the art in crafting a message. Seeing how others will percieve it. As I have found here on the blog...

I do have to admit the Stalin/Vienna thing just didn't make sense to me, either.

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 22, 2007 9:20 AM

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"George W. Bush showed the Sunni Arabs what he could accomplish, at the price of a few thousand American lives. Sunni Arab Baghdad is gone, forever."

It's not like this was written in a vacuum. It was written at a time when everybody knows that thousands of Sunnis families are being evicted from their homes and driven from Baghdad at gunpoint.

What's more, When I put it to Dan that he was gloating over ethnic cleansing, he made no effort to deny it.

In fact his answer was: "The transformation of the Jihad neighborhood of Baghdad, for example, from a heroic den of antiamericanism to a collection of helpless victims has been interesting to watch."

I didn't attack the messenger, I attacked the argument...robustly. In particular, I noted that he was rooting for Petraeus' Baghdad Security Plan to fail. Because he is.

Face it, Ry, it was written to provoke, and it did its job. I will be only too happy to "flame" this Barnett character in the same way if he is indeed this kid's mentor.

The Internet is a wonderful thing, but one of its less appealing aspects is that it allows clueless graduate students to gloat over the suffering of innocent people thousands of miles away.

Funnily enough, by the way, Dan didn't seem remotely put out by my arguments. He actually said "OD, Thanks for your excellent comments."

The guy clearly has his worldview all worked out. He has a website where he lays it out. He enjoys argument, and invites challengers by making it deliberately provocative. People link to it, and others follow those links. I assume that was his intention. I don't know if Microsoft has yet invented a type of link that can only be clicked on by people who already agree with you.

Sanger, I am most sincerely moved by your sticking up for me. Thanks mate.

posted by OD on March 22, 2007 12:54 PM

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PS admit it, comparing him to Shalmaneser's Assyrian "blog" was a nice touch.

posted by OD on March 22, 2007 12:59 PM

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Well, I think that Dan was thinking "balance of power" when he mentioned Stalin and Vienna. Probably could have used something else, but what he was really saying is that, if Stalin had held a greater portion of Europe, It would have been Communist all the way through and the US would not have been able to defeat communism in Europe or the Soviet Union.

However, I think the bigger point is a point I made a long time ago about the reasons for invading Iraq: he who holds Bagdhad holds the caliphate. Not only because it was once the seat of the caliphate, but because it sits at the major cross roads of all of the tribes and regions.

Secondly, I said a long time ago (John knows) that, if you want to kill the beast of Wahabi Salafist Islamism, you stab it in the heart. The heart being Baghdad as the physical center of the Islamic "universe". You stab it with democracy or anything other than Wahabi Salafist emirate. You stab it with idealism that is directly in opposition to their own.

That is what Dan was saying. If that seems harsh or somehow "ethnic cleansing" or "death to a culture", I'd agree with John, that's your own prejudice or world view speaking.

Aside from that, how many cultures have "died" so the new culture can advance? all this "death of a culture" stuff is a guilt complex over an evolution that is as natural as changing tides, the erosion of mountains by water or by cataclysmic earthquakes.

It happens, even without war.

posted by kat-missouri on March 22, 2007 1:00 PM

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I doubt you would be so sanguine, Kat, were a foreign army to come to your shores, to help along the death of your own culture.

Baghdad hasn't been an Islamic centre in any way since the 13th century, when Hulagu sacked it.

posted by OD on March 22, 2007 1:13 PM

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OD - Of course none of us would be so sanguine if a foreign army succeeded in crushing our culture. However, Kat is correct. It is the nature of things and some of us (I, anyway) honestly believe that it is them or us. Personally, even though I can say a few bad things and a lot of good things about our culture. I can't think of anything good to say about theirs. Besides, the Arabs have never had any qualms about destroying other cultures (or at least attempting to) re: the Kurds. All that said, your heart may bleed for the them, but mine never will.

posted by Oldloadr on March 22, 2007 1:35 PM

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RY - you might find Dan thought provoking, but......

But Bush did it, all while amusing himself by putting the Shia's sponsor -- Iran -- on the defensive

Amusing himself? WTF? That's the kind of crap I expect out of the loony left. That Bush/Hitler evil stuff. I don't find it a "bold statement" anymore than the other nonsense over at HuffPo.

posted by Maggie on March 22, 2007 1:46 PM

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Maggie - Are you saying that George W enjoying our enemy's discomfort is evil? To me, that would be like saying that Gen. Patton was evil because he enjoyed killing the enemies of the USA. Maybe we've let the left control the dialogue for too long and let their cognitive dissonance effect us. I don't believe anything Dan attributed to Pres. Bush is wrong, or evil. However, I doubt that it's true because we have become a nation, weak of spirit with leaders who don't know it's alright to rejoice at our enemy's misfortune. After all, the alternative to our enemy's misfortune is our own misfortune.

posted by Oldloadr on March 22, 2007 2:32 PM

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Gad, the alignments on this issue are interesting, aren't they?

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 22, 2007 2:32 PM

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Sure are...

posted by Oldloadr on March 22, 2007 2:35 PM

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So long as you understand, Oldloadr, that General Petraeus is most unlikely to appreciate your viewpoint. He is working against the displacement of Sunnis from Baghdad. US commanders in Iraq take no pleasure at all in Iraqi sectarian strife. They know it is the gravest threat to America's war plan. The alignments here certainly are interesting -- I never expected to be here effectively defending a US army plan against attacks from Castle denizens.

posted by OD on March 22, 2007 2:45 PM

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OD – I wish Gen Petraeus all the luck and hope he accomplishes his mission, but only because it is the stated mission and failure would only embolden our enemies. However, if the world is critical of “W’s” approach and ever mindful of the suffering he supposedly caused, it would do back-flips if I had my way. I understand that the president knows things I don’t know and has to act in the world of real-politic, but I don’t have to like it and I don’t have to feel sorry for dead Sunnis when they brought most of this on themselves. I believe, in the end, Iraq will either be partitioned, or partition itself shortly after it appears stable and the coalition re-deploys. At which time, the Sunni world will weep and wail and threaten all kinds of nasty things (just like they do about the Palestinians) because the Iraqi Sunnis will be impoverished since they own the only part of Iraq that has no oil. However, I don’t think the Sunni world will defend them or take them in, except in permanent refugee camps (just like the Palestinians).

posted by Oldloadr on March 22, 2007 2:59 PM

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Putting millions of angry, displaced Sunnis in refugee camps should do wonders for the "War on Terror". At least from the perspective of those who are making a buck out of all this.

posted by OD on March 22, 2007 3:05 PM

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OD - Frankly, I don't believe the War on Terror (should be called the War of Islamic Domination) will be affected either way. There are only 2 possible outcomes to the war:
1. We all become Muslim and hit the rug 5 times a day.
2. We kill all of the Islamists that want to kill/convert us. The estimate is that 10% of Muslims are radical. There are an estimated 1 billion Muslims in the world. That means, for western culture to survive, 100 million Islamists must die.
Therefore, a few thousand more radicals from future refugee camps won't amount to a drop in the bucket.
I don't want Iraq to partition, it's just my prediction. I just said that I don't loose any sleep over dead Sunnis. I know the military officers in Baghdad want the sectarian violence to stop, but hatred that has lasted 1,600 years is not going to go away just because it is in our best interest for it to go away.
Maybe, I'm just the realist here. All the time I was in Iraq, I wondered if the president was getting competent advice concerning the culture and world-view of the ME in general and Iraq in particular...

posted by Oldloadr on March 22, 2007 3:21 PM

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Oldloadr, I've always said that words like yours show why Bush is doomed to fail. Americans don`t support the war's goals. Not Democrats and not Republicans either.

To be brutally honest about Americans, they come in three sizes on Iraq: progressive democrats oppose the occupation because they think it's immoral and a dangerous precedent.

"Moderate" democrats and independents want to pull out because they don't think Iraq is worth it and believe the money and effort should be spent on Americans.

Rank-and-file Conservatives just want to kill Arabs, lots and lots of Arabs. And maybe kill some other Muslims too, while they're at it. They want to kick ass and watch cities burn.

What all of these people have in common is that none of them give a Shiite for Bush's platitudes about transforming Iraqi society and the Middle East through the blessings of American-ness. That's why the Bush narrative has fallen flat with the American people ever since the WMD crapola went up in smoke.

posted by OD on March 22, 2007 3:33 PM

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[Munches popcorn since there are limits to what I can comment on at the moment. Just letting you know I'm here...]

Owen - I did tell you Denizens weren't a monolithic group...

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 22, 2007 3:35 PM

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By the way, 100 million is a lot of people to kill. What methods are you planning to use? Nukes or gas chambers? Adolf Hitler, who also claimed to be defending Western Civilisation against dark, ignorant forces from the East, only killed 6 million Jews, and that took considerable work and organisation.

And since you're a soldier, perhaps you could explain to me HOW the Islamists are going to force you to hit the mat five times a day? How are they going to overcome the Atlantic Ocean, your nuclear deterrent, your armed forces, your police, and your tens of millions of armed citizens?

I've asked this question many, many times, but never got an answer.

Little Iraq has proved very troublesome for your mighty armed forces to occupy. But 300 million Americans will submit to occupation by a gang of poorly-armed terrorists? Americans must be pretty damn wimpy if that's the case.

You may find that the War on Terror does not end with you passing over their bodies or they over yours. Rather it might end like the War on Drugs, going out not with a bang but with a whimper. It will become background noise, then a tired joke, ultimately a metaphor for silly, ill-considered policy.

posted by OD on March 22, 2007 3:46 PM

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OD – I guess I wasn’t clear enough.
1. I have no intention of converting, but the Islamists have no intention of stopping until they are dead or we all convert. Since I don’t intend to convert, they are going to die.
2. I guess you missed the subtle difference between us and Hitler is that we didn’t start this war, they did. Anyway, just because Hitler said something doesn’t mean it’s totally wrong. After all, you Brits have certainly embraced one of his core concepts (gun control).
3. Since our politicians don’t have the ‘nads to nuke anybody, that’s why George W says the war will take years. I hope your right that the war ends in a whimper, but only because the Islamists get tired of blowing themselves up and flying into buildings, not because the West decided they don’t like pork products that much anyway.
4. There are still millions of committed Christians in the US that will never convert and will fight any attack to the death, but there are also millions of secular progressives who have no reality based faith. Therefore, we don’t have 300 million potential insurgents in this country to fight off the heathen.

posted by Oldloadr on March 22, 2007 4:24 PM

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this is oldloadr's" wifee 2.0", tomorrow he reaches a mile stone "51" so please go easy on him, he is verry sensitive, that getting old thing.LOL

posted by Oldloadr on March 22, 2007 4:50 PM

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OD - I forgot to mention that you probably do have a point about te Dems want the Pres to do less and the conservatives want more. Of course, your most famous politician of the last century put it this way, "Democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all the others."

posted by Oldloadr on March 22, 2007 4:56 PM

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Rank-and-file Conservatives just want to kill Arabs, lots and lots of Arabs. And maybe kill some other Muslims too, while they're at it. They want to kick ass and watch cities burn.

C'mon, Owen. Painting with just as large a brush as you accuse others of using.

You can do better...

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 22, 2007 6:18 PM

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Oldloadr - How can you think I meant Bush was evil? I thought you knew me better than that! I am a Bush girl. I still have Bush stickers on my car. The only people to the right of me are Genghis Khan and my Dad! I was expressing my outrage that anyone would say Bush was "amusing" himself, that anyone would infer this is less than a matter of grave importance.
I am wounded. I thought you loved me.

posted by Maggie on March 22, 2007 6:40 PM

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Maggie - I phrased it as a question since I was confused by your answer. Thank you for claifying and reafirming my faith in your judgement.

I, of course, feel strong affection for all Bush Girls, but truly love only one transplanted Bush Girl (wife 2.0).

As wife 2.0 has mentioned, I am suffering through another birthday tomorrow so my wit has been dulled.

posted by Oldloadr on March 22, 2007 6:47 PM

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1) Where were you the day I said that war sucks and the only thing that sucks more is what happens when we don't do it?

You're so worried about the "others". I'm worried about me and mine. I worry about the "others" who are most like me and I worry about the "others" who are not like me, but are like me when they think that war sucks and would prefer all the combatants go back to jerking off in their perspective corners.

But, since I know that isn't going to happen, not just because I say so or "right wingers" want it so, but because the enemy repeatedly says so, every day, through words and actions, I also know that, unless I can protect me and my own, unless I insure that I am not mired here in constant bombings and other terrorist actions, I can do nothing for the "others", either to support them or to protect them, much less their culture.

2) What a silly remark. Of course I wouldn't like someone coming to change my "culture" forcefully. You think I don't know they don't like it? You think we should stop what we're doing because they don't like it? Let me repeat what I said before: if not this, then it might be something else much more terrible. Something that does, in fact, resemble "ethnic cleansing" instead of the wide brush you try to apply. The big war and the big war changes things much more profoundly than this "little war" we are currently engaged in.

3) Exactly where have you been and what world are you looking at? Are you looking at the Iraq that is currently full of all sorts of Islamists, Shia and Sunni? Whether the true nature of Iraq and it's politico/religious constituents were hidden by the alleged secularity of Saddam's Ba'athist regime or not, matters not in my analsysis. The important aspect of Iraq and Baghdad is exactly what I said it was: the center of the caliphate and the center of the Islamic world (I don't mean that as the same as Mecca or Qom), I mean that in the physical sense.

I mean that as in the plans of the Islamists require the entire of the region and that they needed to establish a base there, at some point. That is the purpose and reason for "pre-emptive" warfare, to deny your enemy space, time and materials to act in future engagements and territories.

The fact that Saddam and his antics, true at the moment of invasion or not, provided the auspices by which to plant this in the center of the Islamists' desired territory is only significant if you refuse to see the entire region as potential battle space. Something that you may feel you have the luxury to do, but which the Islamists care a fig about your conscience, whose territory or the "others" culture.

It always seems that OD and others are always arguing from the point of view that the Islamists have no vote in the matter of warfare and that we, being the alleged agressors, can turn it on and off with one decision like a spigot.

Not so. Thus in warfare, you counter your enemy, counter move, advance and withdraw based on the needs of the battle, not simply on your good conscience, lest your enemy win and you have much more blood shed of those around you and those you leave behind on your "good conscience".

It's the whole "bad choice/worse choice" of warfare.

You're continuing desire to paint everyone who doesn't think we should just throw up our hands and cry defeat as joyous destroyers gone a-viking is simply laughable. But, if it makes your position more tenable, whatever floats your boat.

posted by kat-missouri on March 22, 2007 6:54 PM

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OD - You never disappoint. So Americans come in 3 sizes, lol. How ridiculous. Not that I put any stock in a liberal British opinion of me, or Bush, or my fellow Americans. How would you like us to sit here and snipe at all Brits? It's just silly. But that's you, Owen. You never disappoint. You have one or two points and then the discussion devolves from there. Oldloadr was using hyperbole. He doesn't advocate gassing millions. Stop comparing us to Hitler. No one listens to you when you start that crap. We aren't oppressing anyone.

posted by Maggie on March 22, 2007 6:59 PM

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Maggie - I often read the Sun On-line, one of the few "conservative" British papers. I put the scare quotes on conservative because the British definition of conservative would include most of the current crop of Dem presidential candidates. Therefore, we are once again, two peoples separated by a common language.

You are right, I don't advocate killing 100 million Muslims; I just advocate that their willingness to die trying to kill us is not something that is my concern whenever they fail and we kill them first. The one good thing about suicide bombers is they never get to be experts at it, but we get to get better at recognizing them and thwarting them. As I told OD, I would love for this war to peter out because the Islamists get tired of dieing trying to kill us, but not because they have beaten down our resolve.

posted by Oldloadr on March 22, 2007 7:17 PM

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OY!!

OD: I wasn't really defending you as much as being put off by the class-A jerk comment. Though I did agree to some extent with what you wrote, not all... Like John, I can see the balance of power issues, I just think Dan took mental shortcuts that intended or not, inflamed AND conflated issues that really don't all go together. I've a lot of reasons for saying that, but it would take a lot more time and room to lay them all out here. More to the point, the Stalin and Vienna comment was --still is-- dumb. First, he couldn't have, second, it wouldn't have changed much in any direction (I'm not even sure there is a proper time-line/path one could follow to make that make sense...). We backed off from Prague so the Soviets could have it--that was the deal, but Unca Joe wasn't going any further than he did unless we allowed it, which would have made the world a far WORSE place than it is. And even more to the point, the Saudis still have more money than Iran, and are still nominally on our side, and Wahabism isn't Iraqi, it's Saudi-funded. Iraq has not been the center of the Islamic world for so long it doesn't matter anymore. The Islamic world is also NOT just ARAB, it is Arab, Aryan (the Iranians are Aryan not Arab), and it is subcontinental Indian racial mix, and it is Moor and Berber, which is different than Egyptian and Jordanian and Saudi Arab, and it is ALSO Indonesian races (which, BTW, is the largest Muslim DEMOCRACY in the world).

Fact is, OD, Oldloader, Kat, and some others are over simplifying the problem and we are mixing apples and oranges and pomegrantes in ways that would be amazingly interesting to try to unravel.

And John is right, this is an interesting argument/debate to watch, if only because once any of us starts to try to explain a position it is almost impossible to avoid some link to an argument that looks or sounds a little like an argument our opponents have made, but from the backside. I don;t know if that makes any sense, but simply (as simply as one can make this, I guess), we have jumped into this argument at the waist-high level. This kind of thing needs to be started, and sorted out, at the ankle level, because there is just no way to get at the ground truth on any of the issues without defining certain key concepts. For example, just what do we mean by Islam? Which version? Which culture? Which nation? Which race of people? Which caste? And so on....

I have to tell you, my notions about Islam and the war have changed dramatically since last year this time. Funny how an education can do that, but to be honest, mostly, I spent a lot of time talking to several Muslims who were my classmates and are now my friends--for life, I hope. That doesn't mean I'm a convertl, nor that I was 'easy' on them, nor that I think we should use one less bullet than we need to to kill everyone who is trying to harm the U.S. What it does mean is that I am now far more aware of the cross-cutting issues than I was, and I have to tell you, a lot of what we all think we know is just plain wrong.

For example, consider the Israeli/Palestinian Issue. We could argue the various aspects of this from front to rear for years, but the big question, the only real question worth asking is this: What would happen if Israel were to disappear? Today. Totally. Anyone think the Palestinians would get the land, and a country? Not even close. The other arab states would split that land up as quick as they could, taking the parts they felt were important, leaving the palestinians as squatters and nusiancanes on that land. And you can bet, the Arab nations, including Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Saudi would not be nearly so nice about cleaning house as the Israelis are. Why is that? Because no one actually cares about the Palestinians. No one. Not one single other Arab/Islamic country actually cares about the Palestinian people. The Palestinians are the rock all of the non-aligned (and even some aligned nations) use to throw at the US! And even that is indirect. If the US would stop supporting Isreal in EVERY way, if it left Isreal alone, and allowed it handle it's own issues without direct US support, 1) there is nothing any Arab country could do to Isreal to hurt it in a serious way, and 2) the US could force the non-connected countries (e.g., China) to leave it alone. So then what? Well, countries like Indonesia would not have the Palestinians to throw at the US when the US says we won't sell arms to a country whose Army is despotic. Iran would have to find some other rock to throw at the US to take the focus off it's problems. Saudi would have to find another point of leverage to use against the US. And libya? Well, who cares about Ghaddafi anymore, really?

You want a Muslim success story? Look at Maurtiania. Muslim, had a coup a year or so ago to depose an increasingly despotic 'elected' president, havingt elections soon to elect a new president, _after changing the constitution to prevent some of the earlier abuses. It is a Muslim state by declaration in its constitution. It is also one of hte few to officially recognize Isreal (its reasons may have been self-serving, but it never withdrew that recognition)....

I know all of that is long and rambling to an extent, but so much was said above by all the major parties that it would be impossible to untangle the threads of it all. I'd say we should start over with some basic concept discussion and precede from there.

Or not. In which case, have another pie.. :-)

V/R

posted by sangerM on March 22, 2007 7:43 PM

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SangerM - The problem may be complex, but, to paraphrase the Gipper, "The answer isn't easy but it is simple." We stand our ground and we defeat those who would defeat us before they have a chance. The only thing the Islamists understand is power. Whenever we do something to show mercy, it is perceived by them as weakness.

posted by Oldloadr on March 22, 2007 9:06 PM

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To be brutally honest about Americans, they come in three sizes on Iraq:

I had a lot more to say until I read everyone else's comments. But I'll leave it at this: OD, that was weak. Pathetic, even. If that's really what you think, why bother to even engage?

posted by FbL on March 22, 2007 10:32 PM

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OldLoader: "The only thing the Islamists understand is power."

Well, I'd say that's pretty simple, too bad it's not true. Is that all we understand? Is that what it would take to get _us_ to leave them alone? No and no. In fact, I'd say they understand power and its use a lot better than we do in some cases, at least insofar as we're talking about our stupid democratic congress and their deadline for withdrawal...

And I'd say they are winning the fight in some ways because for all our power, we can't kil them all. The US has squandered a great deal of its power, starting in many ways with dumb ol' Rumsfeld's "old Europe Comment." Power comes in different flavors and pure, kill-em all power isn't the best, or the most effective kind, as much as I still feel like we haven't killed near enough of the bad guys.

Problem is, as I've said many times about my favorite person to hate (and for a long time _before_ I started the new degree), Ralph Peters, it may feel all good testosterone-inducing good inside to tell people they suck, or that they're stupid, or that they are our dirt-ball enemies, and so on... but unless there is a strategic reason for doing that--one that is designed to put the enemy on notice that he is in trouble, or to motivate, then it is just stupid people giving away power for no good reason. The problem a lot of Americans have (and others too, but us a lot), is we assume the straightforward approach is most honorable and moral, while other people are playing to win, and don't give a rat's a$$ about honor or morals. China, N. Korea, others... They are playing to win. So are we actually, but because we can't control all the comms coming from inside the country, we give the appearance of being diffused and confused (and we often are).

So the question again is what do you mean by Islamists. And if it's that simple, then what do we do about them? And how do we tell them apart from others? And at what point do we reevaluate to see if we've done enough, or give them a chance to change their minds?

posted by sangerM on March 22, 2007 11:09 PM

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OldLoader: "The only thing the Islamists understand is power."

Well, I'd say that's pretty simple, too bad it's not true

Sanger - It might not be the only thing they understand, but it is the only thing they respect.

posted by Maggie on March 22, 2007 11:29 PM

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Maggie, that is also not true. It's an old piece of common wisdom that lumps every one of our foes together in one, semi-stupid ball. The people in charge are not stupid, as much as their splody-dopes might be, and power is not the only thing they respect. It's also not something they fear or are cowed by. In fact, I'd say power, of the wipe them out kind, is something they don't give a damn about.

I'm sorry, but just as I said about the immigration issues we discussed, there are no easy or simple answers to this problem, and the trite old aphorisms don't really give anyone enough useful information to help them defcide what to do next. Imagine if Bush were being told, Power "might not be the only thing they understand, but it is the only thing they respect." The next question would be, ok, what do we do? [crickets chirping] See? It tells us nothing of use.

In fact, all power of this kind is good for is killing, and since we're not willing to start indiscriminate killing, then this kind of power, and such statements, are essentially meaningless.

Does that make any sense?

posted by sangerM on March 22, 2007 11:45 PM

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"PS admit it, comparing him to Shalmaneser's Assyrian "blog" was a nice touch."
I wouldn't necessarily call it nice, Owen. If you leave out the negative and insluts intended it was a piece that one didn't see coming and a well played tactic. It was interesting to say the least. Simply exposing the bit to many of us who haven't seen it was worth it, except for the 'You Americans are bloodthirsty bastards' thing.

"Face it, Ry, it was written to provoke, and it did its job." I Don't think so. Red meat to those who think like him? I'd agree with it. An attempt to put what Iraq the Iraq war has done(i.e. changed it irrevocably, and, according to Dan, for the better)? Yeah, I'd agree with that. Intentionally trying to piss off opponents, or verbal bomb throwing? Ethnic cleansing? I really don't see it.

I think you miss Dan's point on the Jihad neighborhood---now that the shoe is on the other foot we call foul? Dan's claim is that the Sunnis in that neighborhood were surgent supporters who had, months or years depending on who you talk to, to choose a path that avoided this outcome. They chose to proceed with one that stuck it to their countrymen and the MNF. So excuse us if we don't shed tears for those who, just a week earlier, were rooting for the insurgency using the most heinous of tactis. That's Dan as I read him. I don't claim to know the on the ground truth, but I can say, with some certainty, that that's what Dan was driving for.

And OD, isn't the 'he didn't deny it' thing kinda silly? John Edwards didn't deny anything after the Ann Coulter fiasco and so does that mean he's what she implicated? That's a cheap trick mon ami. And Dan is pretty polite guy. When he got death threats on his Disciples blog post he acted much the same way. Dan's a bit more unflappable than I am(okay, a lot more unflappable than me.).

Maggs,

Amusing himself? WTF? That's the kind of crap I expect out of the loony left.

That's not what was being driven for. More like 'confounds' his enemies. There once was a time when saying someone amused themself while the enemy did X wasn't a phrase that carried a negative or evil connotation. And dang, you're sure protective of your men. Who do I have to kill to get on this protection list of yours?

Sanger. Dude, there's a lot I could say, and a lot of it, about the intentionally personal angles you're pushing on. But well, that wouldn't be productive.

Did I take it personally? Some yes and some no. Owen came in and just went ape. Insulted American's quite harshly, in an erudite fashion no doubt but still called us bloody handed and minded thugs.

It is also that Owen would say all of what he said over at Dan's instead of here, since he knows who we are and knows he'd get the fight he was looking for(something he's admitted he does, go looking for fights.). If was torqued why not come after me for linking to it instead of going over there and just letting go with both barrells without so much as a warning or working up to it in trollish fashion? Why not make me defend my linking to it? He knows us and us him. It wouldn't be trolling if he had done that. I stick up for my friends, and I stuck up for OWen over there(after a fashion) too. So sue me for being loyal.

Was the manner in which he decided to say he thought we were wrong smart and proportional? Meant to actually win anyone over? No. (Aside, Owen, calling someone a bloody handed thung which you have done with the claims of supporting ethnic cleansing and the 'blogs of Ancient buttheads' is not attacking the argument. That's attacking the messenger and slandering a ton of people.) Meant to piss people off? Absolutely. Owen loves making conservatives get torqued. he blows off steam that way(again, he's admitted such here, so we could factor that into our responses but Dan and his readers don't know that.).

It insulted a blog friend I know who is going thru a tough patch. That's the personal part---so I hope you know I'm kidding with Maggie.

And the last line of my reply is a take off of something I always say to Owen when he shows up: that he'll always have a seat at the Castle Argghhh! bar next to me---because he's usually found a way to piss everyone else off to the point they won't associate with him. It was a joke between he and I, and a long running one.

Fuzzy: Why does he bother to engage? Because he does this to blow off steam from time to time. Owen believes what he says but not in the oddball fashion he says it. He doesn't hate Americans, but he does like saying that to get us mad and fight with him over it. He does have serious and honest criticism of what we've done in Iraq, but he does what he does here to get a rise out of us. Really. He stated that back when he showed up originally(last year or the year before. It's in the archives I'm sure.). So he says it in the most strident of tones, almost screedy. Which is why I'm mad that he went over to Dan's and did it. Dan and his readers don't know that so it was totally a troll move---and we hates trolls(don't be a troll Owen).

That Dan didn't get perceptibly upset is why Owen isn't utterly derisive of the guy.

posted by ry on March 23, 2007 1:02 AM

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You know, John can delete this message, but today, I am not feeling particularly fond of Owen or his ilk. In fact, I am very angry in ways that I cannot express here because it is against the rules. I can't express it on my own blog because I am associated with an organization, run a blog for it in tandem with my own blog, thus saying what I want to say would be harmful to it and possibly put off a number of people who at least give a damn about our troops even if I think their politics suck rotten eggs.

So, I can't say what I want. I can't get that "relief" of venting. But, it doesn't mean it doesn't make me angry. It doesn't mean I don't want to let off with some vile condemnation of Owen and anyone like him. I would like to say that I would be able to drink a beer with Owen at some future time, but, honestly, I don't think that would be today or in the next few days.

Al Qaida in Iraq just released a video announcing impending victory in Iraq. A day before the Dems announce surrender with their supplemental vote (while simultaneously replacing the republicans at the Baachnal they call "government appropriations"). While the Taliban/Al Qaida linked leader, Dadullah announced there will be no negotiations with Americans and they are going on a major spring offensive in Afghanistan. Today, they arrested three more men in England related to the July 7, 2005 bombing. Today, fellow Iraqi bloggers in Iraq (whom I have IM'd and emailed in the past) were nearly blown up by an explosive laden fuel truck at a ministry building as they drove by. Probably Al Qaida in Iraq (words that neither OD or Pelosi have been able to say together since 2003) since it is their signature. fortunately, some americans found it first and did a controlled detonation, only damaging the ministry.

Today, Owen can go drown in a pint of beer before I'd drink it with him. I'll let you know how I feel about it tomorrow.

posted by kat-missouri on March 23, 2007 2:27 AM

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This thread has been a pretty good one, once people *got past the anger* and went back to substance.

This thread *reinforces* for me the utility of The Rulez.

When you guys try to have a serious discussion, but let your barbed snark get in there, the thread veers to the personal.

When you rein in your anger, and stick to the point - there's real substance, and real thought, different the many perspectives can be.

I'll still down a beer with Owen, or anyone else willing to stick it out without just flinging poo.

Yes, rhetorically Owen is needlessly caustic at times, as is Sanger. But when they both settle down they're interesting to read.

Ry sometimes thinks faster than he types, but he is a real window into what smarter, more engaged members of the somewhat younger crowd thinks.

Oldloadr and myself have our moments.

Kat always astounds when you marvel (as I do) as to how much time she spends gathering all that data. She and Cassandra together probably surf 2/3's of the digital newsworld every day... and have time to write book-length posts on their own blogs.

Every now and then Maggie cuts through stuff with a knife. Which is when she's slipped out of character...

This has been mostly fun and certainly informative.

And it was a lot more fun when you guys quit picking at scabs and just talked through the issue.

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 23, 2007 7:01 AM

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...and out of respect for Her Majesty's own good folks, who have been of great utility in recent matters, i shall skip the third verse, and go right to the final:

"Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!

Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land

Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.

Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."

And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!"

posted by MajMike on March 23, 2007 8:25 AM

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picking at scabs?!?! eeeewwwwww!

posted by sangerM on March 23, 2007 8:26 AM

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John said ***Every now and then Maggie cuts through stuff with a knife. Which is when she's slipped out of character...***

With a knife or without....I am a dangerous woman, that *is* my character.

Sanger said ***Maggie, that is also not true. It's an old piece of common wisdom that lumps every one of our foes together in one, semi-stupid ball. The people in charge are not stupid, as much as their splody-dopes might be, and power is not the only thing they respect***

I'm sticking with what I said. I do remember the conversation on immigration. I do respect all the information you have amassed through reading, education and experience. However, as Oldloadr (the birthday boy) said***The problem may be complex, but, to paraphrase the Gipper, "The answer isn't easy but it is simple." ***** We were going to keep getting hit until we hit back. This problem was never going away and we are going to get bloodied solving it. I have never put on a uniform, the closest I have come to deployment is being the distaff side of goodbye. But I believe the reason men and woman put on a uniform and go somewhere else to fight is so that the fight does not come to their home. It is, indeed, as simple as that.....not easy.....but simple.

Which brings us to Kat and caring for "others". She is absolutely, completely, 100% right on that. My concern is like water rippling out for me....are my sons safe....are my parents, siblings and lovers safe....my extended family, my fellow Townies, Bostonians safe.....Americans....allies, friendlies.....now I'll start to worry about "others". Right now, we are not there yet, but being in Iraq is bringing us closer. Anyone who doesn't understand that life in Iraq with Americans is better than under Sadaam is stupid, lying or both. Can you honestly say that they were better off in a country ruled by a man who would interrogate you by sticking a lit candle up your a$$?????? A country where being a pretty bride meant rape????? A country where not winning a soccer game cost you a limb?????With no hope for a future with anyone other than his crazed sons????? Cut the Sh1t! Things suck in Iraq right now, but poll after poll says that while Iraqis are mad, happy or sad about Americans, they all agree that now they have hope. That was what they never had under Sadaam. Granted they hope for different things, but they hope. Yes, they are fighting, but they are moving forward (and things are working in 14 provinces). Yes, there is disagreement over sectarian lines, but they have moved forward politically (i.e. the oil revenue plan). Yes, we ALL wish it was faster, but it isn't. So suck it up and keep slogging.... It's better than it was and force is what it took to get here.
Ry - You aggravate the living daylights out of me. USE SPELLCHECK. Proofread! You leave words out and drive me crazy.... That said.....you are on *that* list.

Kat - Come on let's have a beer with Owen...makes him easier to roll later.

posted by Maggie on March 23, 2007 8:45 AM

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Maggie! LOL

You know, I actually don't drink beer unless it is the only cold substance in the room. I know, unamerican.

Now, give me a bottle of tequila...and some ruphies for Owen, then we'll talk. LOL

posted by kat-missouri on March 23, 2007 9:33 AM

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I don't drink beer either.........I drink Cape Coddahs. We don't need ruphies, Owen is no match for us!

posted by Maggie on March 23, 2007 9:42 AM

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*blink*
I feel like I'm back over at Politburo Diktat reading some of commenter's there. Shesh!

posted by BloodSpite on March 23, 2007 10:02 AM

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Hey, y'all! John started a new thread on this subject at: http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/03/the_struggle_wi.html

You can see my latest pontification and also that of Wife 2.0.

Cheers!

posted by Oldloadr on March 23, 2007 10:04 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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John - Here's another place where you could lend your leadership, if they would recall you. Too much bureaucratic bs, too little concern for the soldier. Can it be mitigated by caring people, or is the system so screwed up that just replacing the people won't help?

posted by Barb on March 21, 2007 8:47 AM

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I think Barb is right ....to a point. I don't think Leadership is the only answer, just part of the equation.

Part of it, in my opinion anyway, can't be fixed. And thats the part we're, as the old quote goes "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the ever expanding bureaucracy"

Between the government regulation, military desire for accountability, and the numerous military, civilian, and HIPA regulations, we've created a red tape monster than in the end no one wants to take responsibility for the simple practice of making a decision Everyone has become so Politically/Politically Correct/Equal Opportunity/Equal Rights/Not Meeting the Needs/Ignoring the Little People Gun shy that the anti thesis has become true....they just ignore almost everybody.

It's almost like some deranged Joseph Heller novel gone horribly wrong.

But I'm getting cynical, but I think a large portion of the onus is not just leadership, but in way we (as in the military/government) do basic business.

If you want more on my opinion you'll need to fill out a BSForm 23-Ab and be sure to sign blocks 4a and 23z and be aware we can reject your request for any purpose including wearing the wrong color socks when you fill it out. If we reject your request you'll need to fill out a TECH Form -331H to request permission to refile the previously mentioned form. Please be sure to list all information including your dog Scruffy you had when you were 5 date of birth. We will handle your process in the order in which it was received and approve it the next 3 to 4 million light years or the day after Leap Day, which ever comes first. Thanks for shopping.

posted by BloodSpite on March 21, 2007 9:02 AM

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Actually, Bloodspite, I was not thinking of the leadership ... or at least not only that. I was just thinking of bored/stupid bureaucratic worker bees who use the rules as a form of weapon, instead of finding the path of best results for the soldier. So, I agree with you :-)

And I suspect that since I have on grey socks today, my form BSForm 23-Ab is now useless and I must begin the process all over again. Which would be funnier if it were not true.

posted by Barb on March 21, 2007 9:47 AM

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Well, I know I'm going to get smacked down for this, but it needs to be said... Malingering is not a peace time only problem. Right now pretty much all you need to do to get diagnosed for PTSD is say you have it. When we were given our debrief at Ft Dix coming back from Kuwait a couple years ago we were encouraged to abuse the Vocational Rehab program. Really. We were told to file for any injury, twisted ankle, anything, so we would be eligable for those benefits. (Vocational Rehab is supposed to be for people whos injuries require adaptive assistance and job retraining.) I was pretty offended at the intended misuse of the system, but I'm sure others didn't mind. Right now there's talk in the VA of automatically granting any OIF/OEF veterans 30% if they apply with no proof of injury. Then they can come back in 5 years and decided whether it was justified. Great use of our tax dollars, right? I'm sure no WWII, Korea or Viet Nam Vets are going to have any problem with that. And certainly there won't be any abuses of that once the word gets out.

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for injured vets getting the treatment and benefits they rate promptly and with a minimal amount of hassle, but there's a reason all that paperwork exist. Soldiers aren't all noble heroes because they deployed, they're human being who range from the best the country has to offer to absolute snakes who will take advantage of any situation. So how do we get all the abuse out of the system? I don't know. I don't think there's any shortage of caring people in these medical system, I think the problem is more bureacratic in nature...

Disclaimer: I do not now, nor have I ever worked for the VA.

posted by Pogue on March 21, 2007 10:08 AM

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A good friend of mine is a retired Army enlisted man. He has suffered the ravages of MS for years and is almost a quadriplegic. According to his wife, he's rated as being 200% disabled. If accurate, WTF? How is it possible to be 200% disabled? Is there (or was there) disability inflation going on?

When I hear of seriously wounded veterans being given the run-around for medical treatment and disability care, it makes my blood boil. We OWE those people, big time.

posted by Larry J on March 21, 2007 10:26 AM

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Larry - I don't know about 200%, but there are rating levels above 100%. Part of this stems from band-aid adaptation to the changing nature of the workplace.

Back when the rating system was established, most work had a large physical component to it, and the rating system reflects that bias. So some people who are perfectly employable can end up with high ratings.

I do, but the cross-cut to that is that most of my rated conditions affect the cost of my day-to-day health care, frequency of need for follow-ups, and a shortened life expectancy and diminished overall quality of life.

To get rated at 100% you have to be unemployable in a conventional sense, and the VA checks with SS and the IRS periodically to ensure you don't have earned income above a certain level (the threshold number escapes me at the moment).

When you break into that territory, there are additional ratings that add money or services, and they relate to issues of care, generally. If I'm unemployable but pretty much able to care for myself, that's the 100% level. If I have multiple missing limbs, blindness, deafness, etc, or diseases like MS, where a helper can be required, then there are further levels above 100% that account for that - which is what your friend's wife is talking about.

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 21, 2007 10:40 AM

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Pogue - you're correct on all counts, and I got that coaching, too. Even from the VA people doing my evaluation physical - suggestions which I declined or I'd be 80%, vice 70%.

That said - the point about the whole process being wrapped around peacetime considerations and timelines is still valid.

And it's still very convoluted to go through by yourself, hence my point about the challenges I had.

There has to be a middle ground - and I think a large part of it is wrapped up in the fact that the Institutional Army, despite protestations to the contrary, isn't really At War. Just as the nation isn't, in the sense of going to war in the past. And we need to adapt to that.

Just as there are people who abuse the pay system for their benefit is no excuse for the condition of the pay system regarding RC forces five years into a war footing, so too the criticism of the PEB system - five years into a war footing.

And the greatest number of victims of the health care and PEB system seems to be RC personnel - the Army needs to adapt.

And it's my job. "Still Serving," remember the retiree slogan? It's my job to be a gadfly, since I have no other lever to pull.

There has to be a middle ground.

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 21, 2007 10:49 AM

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John, I absolutely agree with you on that "Middle Ground" and thank you for trying to drive the system towards it. I don't mean to try and justify the problems with the system due to the abuses. I guess it's that it has become politically advantagous to beat up on the Military and VA to the point where "throw money at it" seems to be the common goal. I know that's not what you're advocating, nor do I think the Castle Denizens lean that way. I'm just frustrated watching a process that repeats every few years where the problems don't get solved, new ones get introduced.

posted by Pogue on March 21, 2007 11:28 AM

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Out of the park, John. What a stupid decision.
20%? Puhleeze. He can barely walk with assistance, has memories and needs help just to function. So, why can't the tapeworms think outside the box in this area? Are the regulations so daunting that they are afraid of...what?

posted by Cricket on March 21, 2007 3:40 PM

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Interesting that you bring this up. Sniper1 of 762justice.com had a blog entry today about the abhorrent conditions found at the Dallas VA Hospital.

I left the following comment over there. While it's partially Dallas VA specific, it also applies here.

V5
.
.
.
I can’t speak to the conditions at the Dallas VA Hospital itself, but ever since the debacle at Walter Reed I’ve been leaving comments everywhere about how crappy the entire VA system is, especially the Secretary of Vetreans Affairs Jim Nicholson.

It took me 22 very long months to get my status taken care of, from original claim through the appeals, to finally having the VA decision overturned and winning my claim. I also know veterans that are going over 40 months in their claims. In the meantime they sit and wait and suffer through mediocre care at the Washington DC Veterans Hospital, which is a sh*t-hole compared to Walter Reed.

I only wish they’d send me down the road for some treatment at the Walter Reed Army Hospital complex!! It’d be like being transferred from Sadam’s spider-hole the F’n Taj-Mahal!

Getting my point yet?

I’m sure there are some great VA hospitals, but the one in Washington DC, and apparently Dallas too, sure as hell aren’t on the list.

So, now, here I sit, assured that I’ve won my VA case, with nary a penny of awarded money in sight.

But oh, wait, let me tell you how this worked.

I claimed three things, all service connected:

1. Rash! A mysterious recurring rash that no military, VA, or civilian dermatoligist can figure out the cause or cure for. Sometimes it takes over my entire face, head, chest, and shoulders and looks very similar to a HUGE “Port Wine Stain” birthmark. Other times it’s non-existent.

2. Memory loss! I have HUGE tracts of brain real estate eaten up. There are large gaps in my memory. I can’t remember half of my son’s childhood, most of my miltary service, and a good portion of my K-12 school years. A lot of my life missing. The doctors think it’s part of the issue with my spinal trauma. When the damage happened the spinal cord swelled up into the lower brain and did some damage. They still don’t know the extent of all of it.

3. Quadriplegia! I’m what’s called a higher functioning quadriplegic… really no description needed, it’s not great, but I’ve gotten stronger.

Well, the VA only returned a favorable decision for the quadriplegia and not the rash and memory loss. That’s fine with me, the quadriplegia is/was the most complicating issue.

However, the “denial” letter for the rash and memory loss got here within three, yes three, days of the appeal decision being made. I still have yet to receive my letter approving me for the quadriplegia or my back pay or any other benefit.

When I questioned the VA about this they had no real answer other than, “it just takes time!” UHHH WELL… sure, but if I can receive the denial paper in 3 days why not the M’F'n approval letter?

Something is rotten in Denmark folks, and it’s not the poor soldiers that have to deal with the system. It’s Jim Nicholson and his cronies.

V5

posted by V5 on March 21, 2007 3:41 PM

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I hate the VA. I get my 20%, but it took years and a fight. And none of that was combat related, so I don't even have the level of a anger to deal with. Bottom line is this as far as I am concerned: The VA is the court of last resort for people who need medical care. You get what you pay for, and I'm not trying to be funny, nor forgetting what was actually paid by those who need it, but to be frank, anyone who thinks the VA is a place where they are going to get first class care in a timely manner is just confused. And for all that, the VA is a 1000% better than when I first ETS'd. Problem is that there is no market force making the system function. And it's not the people (mostly). Vounteers and decent caring people have been the rule, but they are overworked, understaffed, and the paperwork is just too much to deal with.

And as far as I'm concerned, it's where you go when you can't afford good medical care. Sound awful? Well consider this: I have a problem with one eye, service connected. I was having a problem with that eye, was going to go to lens crafters to get glasses (figured it'd be an hour). A buddy suggested the Pensacola VA, which was pretty good to work with actually, but --VERY long story short, it took me six month of several doctors appointments before I could see an eye doctor who said " you just need reading glasses... we can give you some computerglasses but you'd do better going to wal-mart for common ones!! Six!!! MONTHS! So ok, I got the PC glasses, but they were cut wrong, so I threw them away and finally got reading glasses at WalMart, where I still get my glasses. And the VA, for all of that, they made me change my bloodpressure med from what my private doctor had been prescribing (because they wouldn't see me just for my eye, they had to see the whole me), and that screwed me up in a big way, and the straw was when they insisted I needed to make an appointment for the Blood Pressure Clinic (took an hour to drive there, an hour wait, and an hour back, so half a day sick-leave), only to find out the clinic was a blood pressure test and some aggravating nurse telling me I needed to calm down so my blood pressure would register lower... It just kept going up, can't imagine why...

I walked out that day and never looked back. So now, I make a doctor's appointment, I wait 10-15 minutes at MOST, I spend quality time with my physician and I don't have to explain the problem EVERY time I go there, and I get advice, or a shot, or a prescription, and I pay 20.00 and I walk out with an appointment in hand for the next time, made to suit ME, not the stupid system....

VA? Screw the VA. The government ought to contract out medical care for all vets, and make it an HMO like deal, and get government employees out of the equation. Then people will get quality care in a timely way, without all the nonsense, because people can and do vote with their feet when they have a choice. I don't know how Tricare works, but I would never go back to government provided medical care unless I was just plain indigent--and unable to get medicaid. And I can only imagine what kind of care the Canadians get if it's all socialized (read government provided)... Ugh.

Funny thing is, I figured the combat vets were getting all the good care which was ok 'cause I didn't figure I had the 'right' to keep one of them from getting care. So much for that theory, eh.

V/R

posted by sangerM on March 21, 2007 9:22 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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John - Although I believe your stated reason for a lack of competent SrNCOs is valid and plausible; it has been my observation that there is also a socio-economic aspect to the void. I can sight two examples:
1. The Saudi AF bought F-15s from the US and Tornadoes from the UK over 30 years ago. The contract with then McDonnell-Douglas was for a 5 year training and maintenance contract. I have friends still working on that 5-year maintenance/training contract. The reason being, any-body who is anybody, socially in Saudi Arabia becomes an officer. Anybody who isn’t anybody probably can’t read (even Arabic).
2. Recently the UAE just realized that they can’t get their enlisted force to maintain an acceptable MC rate for their F-16 fleet (which they have had for almost 2 years). From reports and blogs I have read, it is the same thing as in Saudi as far as the source of the enlisted force and their entry-level abilities.
There are notable exceptions in the ME. Bahrain, for example, did let go of most of their American technicians after 5 years of operating F-16s (although their purchase was about a quarter of the UAE’s). Even still, Bahrain, along with the rest of the ME, imports most of its Middle Class, as did Iraq before the war. In a society, that is class conscious and still indifferent to literacy rates; it is going to be extremely difficult to build the kind of NCO corps that the US services take for granted. Come to think of it, we could be saying the same thing: there could be a political reason for the high illiteracy rate in these countries…

posted by Oldloadr on March 21, 2007 8:15 AM

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As memory serves the 1980's/90's Soviet Union military also didn't use NCO's as we know it.

They were pretty much a rank, nothing more. No decision making capability, no foundation, no "middle management" basis of thought.

It's not very surprising that the it would seem the Soviet Union model is being used in the Middle East (with about as much effectiveness in my opinion, anyway heh) considering their influence in the region

I'm sure there's someone out there bigger/better/brighter than I on the subject, but thats my take.

posted by BloodSpite on March 21, 2007 8:15 AM

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You know Loader, I have two sources that back you up. One who did FMS selling Hawk missiles way back when(where he got taught Arabic, Pushtun, and Farsi on his own dime--thanks a lot Army.). The other being Col de Atkine who spent a lot of time in the region trying to train Arab armies, and always said that the officers intentionally horded knowledge to keep their own status assured.
They both back John too. The two claims seem to run together---a stupid populace incapable of making independent decisions is a whole lot easier to keep in line and intimidate.

posted by ry on March 21, 2007 12:42 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The UAVs (oops, can't call 'em UAVs anymore - they're now Unmanned Aerial Systems... some Colonel got his Legion of Merit for that change...), er, um UAS's we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".

� Secure this line!

---

Yeah, there *is* something missing - champagne!

Happy Birthday, Maggie!!

posted by MaryAnn on March 20, 2007 3:03 PM

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Wha?

Nothing's missing! Princess Crabby has a birthday MONTH, if I'm not mistaken. We still have 11 days to celebrate!

oi. I am *not* looking forward to that 4/1 hangover after a month of Maggie Worship Partying....

posted by WereKitten on March 20, 2007 4:46 PM

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Rumor has it that Maggie was around for some of the history that John commented on...

posted by Jon The Mechanic on March 20, 2007 5:40 PM

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BTW, just to make you all jealous (well, those who care anyway):

Sunday: National Portrait Gallery and Museum of American Art (very interesting, pretty cool, disturbing, or really crappy stuff, depending on your views). Was 3-4 hours.

Monday:

Spy Museum. Expensive, kind of silly, was a bit more serious than my daughter expected, not quite as much fun when the details were looked at, though they do a fairly respectable job of mixing real stuff and pop culture and technology, etc. Actually very informative, but a bit crowded and noisy. Best before season, I suspect. was ok...

Navy Memorial. Wow! First time I realized there is a small museum/display/store area next to it (in corner of building to north-east, with Submariner stainglass window), It's all downstairs with some model ships, etc. Very nice.

National Archives. This was an emotional event for me. 1st the Magna Carta. Yes, one of the originals (they were reissued by new Kings) from 1297, I think. Imagine. I was less than 1 foot from an orginal Magna Carta, over 700 years old! Owned by the Perot Foundation, on permanent loan, and most folks just passed that by in a hurry to see the 'important' items. Of course, I understand 'cause that's what I was there for too. Declaration of Independance, U.S. Constitution (all pages), and Bill of Rights! There they were, the real deal, seen with my own eyes, less that a foot or two away (though it might as well have been a mile for the glass, etc, but that didn't matter). I was very, very moved. There in front of me was the very thing I had sworn several times in my life to 'defend and uphold' and sworn 'true faith and alliegence' to.... _THE_ Constitution. Being raised in Philadelphia, I spent more than a few lazy Saturday mornings wandering through Independance Hall, and the revolution and it's relics have been part of my life for as long as I can remember. Moreover, almost all of my adult life has been in some way connected to the Constitution, and with all of that in my mind, I was more than a little awed. And of course there were lesser documents (if you can call them that), like a page from the Emancipation Proclamation! After that, the other displays seemed a littled dimmed, but even so, there is a lot more to see. A lot of interactive stuff, some selected immigrant records, the congressional broadside delineating the rules for the first presidential election, etc.

Back to the National Portrait Gallery, saw what we missed the first day. BTW, this is the only museum with a locker room.

Today:

Wife to National Art Museum, Kid and I to Air and Space! Firsts of every kind, moon rock, Spaceship one, Voyager, Gossamor Condor (or eagle, not sure which); Spirt of Saint Louis, an orginal Wright Flyer, a plane flown by Amelia Earheart, etc... Cool stuff. Saw two IMAX movies, 'Fighter Pilot' about Red Flag (WAY cool), and 'Moonwalk 3D', mediocre, but moving, mostly for us who remember (and cared) and kids. Was ok. Also saw a digital dome planetarium for the first time... I miss the big 'ant' but was impressed by the graphics. Very nice Cosmos in Collision, even if it was too human focused. As if we pissant humans really matter in the midst of all of that...

Also, the museum of American History is CLOSED until 2008, so some of its stuff is in a corner of the A&S museum. Saw Lincoln's Hat, Ruby Slippers, an R2D2, Scarecrow costume; an edison lightbulb, a bell telephone, morse key, lots of other invention firsts... too many noisy kids by this time and had to leave that area...

Passed through National Gallery of Art enroute back to hotel... Stood in a room full of Monet's most famous paintings, a room with a wall of Van Goghs, a wall full of Renoirs, etc... I still find myself wishing I could just touch them. Just to lightly run my fingers over the texture, especially of Van Gogh's and Monet's pieces... Oh well. Same with the Rembrandts.

And then back to snooze 'cause I can...

Tomorrow? I think to the Museum of Natural History or maybe to the Capital, then the American Indian Museum. Saving the memorials for last since the week is supposed to warm up ....

BTW, I took LOTs of pictures, I'll post the good ones when I get back...

V/R

posted by SangerM on March 20, 2007 8:25 PM

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Is this where I brag and say I had a family member, petit nobility, present at Runnymeade?

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 20, 2007 9:08 PM

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Bending over so John Lackland could use his back for a field table?

posted by BillT on March 20, 2007 9:34 PM

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Maggiiiiie! Saw a robin bouncing along over the 4" of ice storm still left on my lawn -- and it reminded me to say, "HOPPY BIRD-DAY!"

posted by BillT on March 20, 2007 9:37 PM

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Geeze, you Irish guys get around... :-) that's kind of cool, though. Really?

posted by SangerM on March 20, 2007 9:52 PM

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While John's ancestor was wearing a chain-mail burkha at the Snark the King Party on the scenic banks of the Runnynose, *mine* was punching out Picts clambering across Hadrian's Fence with fell intent.

They'd decided to crash the party and liven things up by popping a woad-laden handprint on each of the baronial escutcheons.

Buncha haggis-munching interior decorators...

(Heh -- if *that* doesn't suck V29 out of his hidey-hole, *nuthin'* will)

posted by BillT on March 20, 2007 10:06 PM

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Maryann - thank you!

WK - True, true, the party continues.

Jon - I see you are still pouting over being ruled out for admission into the rotation on the basis of your youth. It's ok, baby, I understand.

Sanger - Did you smuggle anything good out of the Archives in your underwear?

Bill & John - thank you

posted by Maggie on March 20, 2007 10:33 PM

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Maggie.... of COURSE Sanger smuggled something good out in his underwear! But we'll have to ask Mrs. Sanger about just how good it is...

posted by WereKitten on March 21, 2007 8:42 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

*It's the Onion, folks. C'mon, just testin' ya.

� Secure this line!

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Sorry, Maggie! Maybe a nice Massage while you are enjoying Dubai will help.

posted by Barb on March 20, 2007 4:22 PM

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How about one heckuva way to get to Dubai?

posted by BloodSpite on March 20, 2007 4:30 PM

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boat looks nice, but does it have a live well and a spittoon?

posted by MajMike on March 20, 2007 4:43 PM

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How about some M&Ms?

posted by ry on March 20, 2007 9:40 PM

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Psssst -- ry! Wrong toy! You *know* what the green ones do to her...

posted by BillT on March 20, 2007 9:55 PM

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Hey, Ry -- pass me some of the other colors. The stale cheetos here in the dungeon didn't last long.

So, am I truly fired, Armorer, Sir? Or just on garbage detail for a month?

posted by Barb on March 20, 2007 10:09 PM

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Barb - If I wait until he is back in the US, can you get MG Rick Lynch to stand in for my masseuse? MMMMMM

BS - It's beautiful, will it be crewed by real sailors (the kind that wear black shoes)?

MajMike - I don't what a live well is.....but I'm guessing it has a bar, so I'm good. As far as the spittoon goes........I don't kiss men who smoke or chew.....so by some coincidence men in my orbit don't smoke or chew. Spittoons are not needed.

Ry - M&Ms are *always* good.

Chief - Do you actually imagine I need assistance in that regard or conversely, that withholding green M&Ms could save a man from the hurricane that is Princess Crabby?

John - Let Barb out of the dungeon. Remembering all these birthdays is a big job. If she's going to miss anyone, it might as well be someone who won't suffer in silence.

posted by Maggie on March 20, 2007 10:45 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

---

Just in case you might need more incentive

Cathy is a journalist who is not expected to make it to the end of the week. Matt and I have passed E-mails with her quite a few times.

Cancer is a dangerous business.

Great idea Mags!!!

posted by BloodSpite on March 20, 2007 9:59 AM

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Headspace and timing is what you do set up a .50 cal so it sounds like a sewing machine rather than an asthmatic vintage car.

You set the the headspace to stop the face of the block smashing into the barrel but still close enough to have the round in the barrel when it fired and the timing to fire the round while its is still actually in the barrel. This helps get it down range and reduces annoying explodiness in the turret and that dreadful [click] noise you hear when you really wanted [BANG].

Happiness is a belt fed weapon.

posted by Murray on March 20, 2007 3:17 PM

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Thanks for posting this and for the support, it is greatly appreciated! If you're ever in Jersey the first pint and whiskey are on me...

Anthony

posted by Anthony on March 20, 2007 8:46 PM

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Bill - sounds like you can go collect for us!

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 20, 2007 9:09 PM

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A PINT of whiskey?

I'm in.

posted by Murray on March 20, 2007 10:32 PM

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Anthony - If you see Mickey anytime soon, tell him I said "Hey" -- I'll try to make it to SG for the Run (cheering section, not participating one).

posted by BillT on March 21, 2007 5:57 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

---

And don't forget what the lack of an EPA can do for your health, as the continued open burning trash pits, industrial waste dumps, and casual use of the rivers as garbage dumps/sewar systems continues. Yes, the term "force health protection" adopts a new urgency...

posted by J. on March 20, 2007 6:46 AM

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Hi, J.! - T'weren't so much a lack of an EPA but the overabundance of VC blowing up wells and water filtration plants, assassinating medical personnel, telling villagers that immunization shots would poison them -- then killing any village chief who allowed medical teams to visit -- and the prevailing belief that the ong long bac si (Chinese herbalists) and sorcerers could cure what ailed ya.

Sorcerers were a pretty interesting bunch -- most of them were herbalist-accupressurists. One of 'em taught me how to give a hand massage that would chase headache demons...

posted by BillT on March 20, 2007 7:14 AM

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Ummmm -- it was a *female* sorcerer (the word thay is gender-independent). And she said that, in addition to banishing headache demons, the procedure also had an intriguing side effect on the feminine libido (okay -- I paraphrased her wording, in deference to The Rulez).

I was going to conduct an emperical investigation on the phenomenon when I went on R&R, but the luvverly lydies I met in Sydney-town never got one. single. headache.

posted by BillT on March 20, 2007 8:45 AM

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But how many headaches did the Aussie ladies report while you were there?

Snicker

posted by jim b on March 20, 2007 9:52 AM

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Wish I'd gotten in on this from the first. Unfortunately I'm currently in the midst of enemy action. We lost a third of the editorial department space to sales so they can talk with clients in a more comfortable space, they're building a wall so that our rude, crude and socially unacceptable chit-chat won't bother those clients, our phone system decided to start making bizzare sounds for no apparent reason, the email is doing weird things (yesterday I got a mailer daemon message that said a message I sent Tuesday of last week bounced) and they are 'updating' our computers. Said update means I'll soon be using a Mac mini. Have you seen a Mac mini? My first hard drive was bigger than that thing.
NevadaDailySteve, currently hunkered down in Outpost RRRRR! of the castle.

posted by NevadaDailySteve on March 20, 2007 9:59 AM

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Have you seen a Mac mini? My first hard drive was bigger than that thing.

You must've had the 40meg drive, then -- my 20 meg was the same size...

posted by BillT on March 20, 2007 11:31 AM

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My first hard drive was a 20 meg external, it really was bigger than a Mac mini. I wish I still had that thing, today's kids would never believe that it was that big to hold so little. Now you have flash memory cards that hold gigabytes of data that are smaller than a book of matches.

posted by NevadaDailySteve on March 20, 2007 3:59 PM

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Heh... Well my attendance is spotty this week, since I'm doing this post-hike after a day of walking around DC, but I have to ask, 'as long as one of Sanger's rants'? Are my tirades that short? Sheesh, I must be slipping and will need to up my output now that I have an extra 27 hours a day to do whatever I want instead of what I have to do...

Oh, and BillT: BotR, plus BoFR, PLUS some M.A.S.H. PLUS some Shogun (read that in one weekend), PLUS some TINS stories from old aviators all sort of melted together into something not suitable for any decent mind to ponder...:-) BTW, I always thought Gimlet and Legolam were two of the funniest names going, Although Frito and Spam were a close second.

Ha! Immmmmmm baaaaaack.... Well, almost.

posted by SangerM on March 20, 2007 7:45 PM

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BillT;

My first hard drive was a 5MB Profile connected to an Apple///.

Roughly 2.5-3x the size of a Mini. It was $3499 when it was announced; good thing the company paid for it.

posted by steveH on March 20, 2007 9:33 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

*A term of art from the artillery. Harassment and Interdiction Fires.

Back in the day, when you could just kill people and break things without a note from a lawyer, they were pre-planned, but to the enemy, random, fires at known gathering points, road junctions, Main Supply Routes, assembly areas, etc - to keep the bad guy nervous that the world around him might start exploding at any minute.

Not really relevant to today's operating environment, right? But, it *is*

The UAVs (oops, can't call 'em UAVs anymore - they're now Unmanned Aerial Systems... some Colonel got his Legion of Merit for that change...), er, um UAS's we fly over Afghanistan and Pakistan looking for targets of opportunity are a form of H&I fires, if you really want to parse it finely. We just have better sensors and fire control now.

I call the post that because it's random things posted by me and people I've given posting privileges to. It's also an open trackback, so if (Don Surber uses it this way a lot) someone has a post they're proud of, but it really isn't either Castle kind of stuff, or topical to a particular post, I've basically given blanket permission to use that post for that purpose. Another term of art that might be appropriate is "Free Fire Zone".

� Secure this line!

---

Ry: I disagree with TPJB. I think he's a smart guy; seen him in person; think he should be read and weighed; but believe he is dead wrong on this issue. Just because we know how to partition, doesn't mean it will work - and here's why I think that approach is futile. Having lived with, fought beside (actually for or in place of)the residents of the gulf region (5th SFG - Desert Storm), I know that if they don't have anyone else to fight with, they will fight amongst themselves. The more extreme the faction, the more truth to the addage, "me against my brother; my brother and I against our cousin; our cousin, my brother and I against the world." The real issue is defining what democracy looks like in a culture that is far differnt from ours. What we would definitely call an oligarchy, may well be the best democracy gets in that part of the world. Just sayin'. :>

posted by Mike Lehnherr on March 19, 2007 9:04 AM

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Partition Iraq?

Shame the British never thought of that... oh wait.

posted by Murray on March 19, 2007 4:17 PM

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Someone else making a case for the Castle Rulez...

Are you saying we can't talk about breasts?

OK, I went and read some AutoAdmit stuff....WTF? I thought law students studied all the time and had no lives? This has shattered my image of them. I wish my mental picture of pale, lifeless students stuck in dusty libraries were true.

This is not to say that some of these topics don't relate here. WWII memorabilia is a topic just like it is here.....however the discussion is horribly distorted by sex talk that revolts even me!

posted by Maggie on March 19, 2007 4:57 PM

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No problems no worries, Mike. And it is good to get on the ground feedback. Makes jackalopes like me see how theory actually works out in the real world.

That's BArnett. It's his rock bottom truth. I have disagreements also. Mine are from external issues relating to an Iraq partition(will Wahabi Saudis pump up the Sunnis to counter a Shiite state that allies with Iran? Does Turkey take this and smile?). Though I do agree with him that we cannot act like Iraq exists in a vacuum and so we do have to come up with a coherent and workable strategy to deal with Iraqs neighbors.

It's logical. It's even consistent. It's worth talking about. It just may not work.

"I thought law students studied all the time and had no lives?" Heh. When and where do you think these people learn to drink and become alcoholics? Self-medicating is a grad student tradition. With all the nutiness that comes with it.

posted by ry on March 19, 2007 5:50 PM

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Someone remind me ...hat is the difference between a lawyer and a catfish?

posted by jim b on March 19, 2007 8:51 PM

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Let me remind the dividers that Iraq is not our country. We don't get a say in the partition debate. The latest polls continue to demonstrate that Iraqis oppose partition overwhelmingly.

The War Between the States settled the notion of partition for us. And, look how well partition is working in the former Yugoslavia.

There are few economic, political or social reasons that make sense when you talk about breaking up a country. Somebody always gets the short end of the stick. I suspect the Bangladeshis sometimes rue their win.

Most of us don't like the ideas put forth by the Mexican nationalists for our southwest. Many of us find the paractice of Native American reservations to be a little crazy. Now, imagine that policy makers in Russia began opining that the United States ought to be broken up.

posted by Chuck Simmins on March 19, 2007 9:27 PM

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Jim,
One's a scum sucking fish, and the other is a fish sucking scum?

posted by afsister on March 19, 2007 9:27 PM

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Hey Chuck if they wanted to be complete control of it they should done something other people did there.

Win.

posted by Murray on March 19, 2007 9:48 PM

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I kinda like that one too AFsis but the one I heard was;

One is a bottom dwelling ...scum sucking ...scavanger, and the other is a fish.

posted by jim b on March 20, 2007 8:41 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

---

Well, it seems like medals are slow in being rewarded for some while being handed out like candy for others.

As it ever is in the military. LOL

posted by kat-missouri on March 19, 2007 10:35 AM

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Well, it seems like medals are slow in being rewarded for some while being handed out like candy for others.

As it ever is in the military. LOL

Heh. No argument from me there, kat.

posted by BillT on March 19, 2007 11:44 AM

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..and don't even get me started on CABs and the stateside pogue boards that have convened to determine whether something (or somethings) that happened back in OIF first rotation qualified for a retro-active award of the badge that had not yet been created...

posted by MajMike on March 19, 2007 4:35 PM

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Here's one for ya -- the folks who crew medevac aircraft aren't eligible for the Combat Medical badge, even if they go into a hot LZ. Neither Officer nor Enlisted assigned to an Aviation unit may receive the award.

The award was originally created for medics assigned to Infantry outfits; now, anybody at the tip of the spear is eligible. Except Aviation, natch, which is the only combat branch whose members are specifically prohibited from receiving the CMB.

I have --had -- a VietVet Medevac bud who gave a three-star an earful on behalf of his medic. Wouldn't have wanted to be that LTG even for the retirement check..

posted by BillT on March 19, 2007 5:46 PM

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I don't think a 5 month delay in the awards is all that excessive. A lot of units seem to do them in a batch for administrative reasons. I am irked at award inflation - a problem that seems to be quite the issue in the Army (including Guard/Reserve). The CAB is a recent example, although I'm sure everyone remembers all the discussions on Bronze Stars. I don't know the details of the CMB so I won't comment on that. The Army seems to have developed an aversion to earning stuff. Remember when the berets were just for the green beanies? Then Rangers, then Airborne, then Infantry, then everyone? Sorry... rant off, switching to decaf.

posted by Pogue on March 19, 2007 6:58 PM

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Pogue - while I hear ya, 5 months *is* excessive.

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 19, 2007 10:22 PM

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'Specially for a PH. Even in IV-Corps-Where-There-Is-No-War ("There are *no* American combat troops in the Mekong Delta." --Hank Kissinger, 1970), if you were hit hard enough to be hospitalized, you woke up with the medal pinned to your pillow.

If it was just a quick "cleaned-and-debrided-wound" at the dispensary, you submitted your own paperwork through the system, but you generally got it within 30 days. That said, I only knew of one guy who bothered with the paperwork, and he did it because the promotion points offset his education level -- an Appalachian kid who had the intelligence, but not the diploma.

posted by BillT on March 20, 2007 9:10 AM

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OK, as a simple ex-squid, would you please explain to me the difference between a Combat Action Badge and a Combat Infantry Badge?

posted by Outpost37 on March 21, 2007 2:25 AM

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The Combat Infantry Badge is awarded only to troops with the 11-series MOS *and* in an 11-series coded position, who meet the criteria. It's been around since WWII, I think.

The Combat Action Badge is awarded to any other soldier who meets the requirements. Infantry soldiers (in this case, mostly officers) who were filling a non-infantry role would also qualify for a CAB, otherwise they get a CIB.

For a long time, the only "combat" badges were for infantry and medics (the CFMB, Combat Field Medical Badge), denoting that those two groups took extra risks and burdens in combat. Even the artillery officers who accompanied infantry units weren't eligbible, because their job didn't include "closing with the bayonet" so to speak.

The way this war is being fought found us with the situation of a platoon of infantry patrolling down one street, a platoon of field artillerymen patrolling as infantry down the next street over, fighting the same fight.

But only the infantry got an award out of it.

The CAB was developed to address that issue directly - acknowledging that the nature of this war is different from that of the previous conflicts in which CIBs were awarded.

Think of the CAB as the Combat Action Ribbon of the Sea Services.

posted by John of Argghhh! on March 21, 2007 8:16 AM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

---

Massa John will certainly enjoy The Chianti along with some fava beans ***Ffpt-Ffpt-Ffpt***.. The Beets, however may have to be checked-in at the barbican.

And oh - BTW, you'd be glad to know that I'm a step closer to cashing-into them Yoruban Dinars. Having drained-up my 401k, I'm well on my way on maxing-out my 2nd mortgage line of credit. Just one more fee to "settle", & I'll be home-free.

posted by Boquisucio on March 19, 2007 7:01 AM

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Thank you Chief!

posted by Maggie on March 19, 2007 7:58 AM

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ah, chianti!!

i was thinking more along the lines of some sangria, but a chianti story line is SO much more believable!

posted by MajMike on March 19, 2007 4:37 PM

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[continuing storyline]As I gazed in disbelief at the chromatic puddle on the deck, and my vision telescoped into unconsciousness, I idly speculated on the source of this unexpected addition to my little home away from home. Had I failed to distinguish between the styrofoam cup of coffee (dangerous) and the styrofoam cup of hydraulic fluid drippings being saved for a rainy day?(poisonous)

Had I neglected to notice an upper-body perforation during firefights Nos. 3,5,6, 8, or 11? Perchance a cracked rib, now excavating a lung, from when Hefty Crewmember landed on me during evasive action during firefights Nos. 3,5,6, 8, or 11?

A sudden chill fell over me. I knew what it was. Congo Hemorrhagic Fever. I was doomed! Doomed to hack up my internal organs! But a small voice of reason piped up, just before darkness claimed me, and I was able to croak, "Can't be. Thank God I'm not in Africa."

posted by bad cat robot on March 19, 2007 5:52 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

---

I'm in D.C. for a week. Any of all y'all in the downtown area?

Not bein' true Texan, I mighta got that a tad wrong... :-)

posted by SangerM on March 18, 2007 1:56 PM

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Heee!

posted by Neffi on March 18, 2007 5:51 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

A three plane strike force was mounted, with two attack air­craft and one standing off as command and radio relay. They knew the radar site was on the mountaintop, but they did not have good intelligence as to its precise location, It was well camou­flaged, and could not be seen readily from the air. They also did not realize that we had "anti-aircraft artillery" and "air de­fense interceptor" forces at the site. Neither did we realize this.

The AN-2 strike force rolled in on the target, mistook the Air America ops shack for the radar site, and proceeded to venti­late it. The aforementioned “anti-aircraft artillery” force- one little Thai mercenary about five feet tall and all balls- heard the commotion, ran out on the helicopter pad, stood in the path of the attacking aircraft spraying rockets and bombs verywhere, and emptied a 27-round clip from his AK-47 into the AN-2, which then crashed and burned. At this juncture, the second attack aircraft broke of and turned north towards home.

The "air defense interceptor" force was an unarmed Air Amer­ica Huey helicopter which was by happenstance on the pad at the time, the pilot and flight mechanic having a Coke in the ops shack. When holes started appearing in the roof, they ran to their Huey and got airborne, not quite believing the sight of two biplanes fleeing north. Then the Huey pilot, no slouch in the balls department either, realized that his Huey was faster than the biplanes! So he did the only thing a real pilot could do-attack!

The Huey overtook the AN-2’s a few miles inside North Viet­nam, unknown to the AN-2’s as their rearward visibility is nil. The Huey flew over the rearmost AN-2 and the helicopter’s down-wash stalled out the upper wing of the AN-2. Suddenly the hapless AN-2 pilot found himself sinking like a stone! So he pulled the yoke back in his lap and further reduced his forward speed. Mean­while, the Huey flight mechanic, not to be outdone in the macho contest, crawled out on the Huey’s skid and, one-handed, emptied his AK-47 into the cockpit area of the AN-2, killing or wounding the pilot and copilot. At this point, the AN-2 went into a flat spin and crashed into a moutainside, but did not burn.

It should come as no surprise that the Air America pilot and flight mechanic found themselves in a heap of trouble with the State Department REMF’s in Vientiane. (REMF is an acronym. The first three words are Rear, Echelon, and Mother.) In spite of the striped-pants cookie-pushers' discomfort at (horrors!) an inter­national incident (or perhaps, partly because of
it) these guys were heroes to everybody in the theatre who didn't wear puce panties and talk with a lisp. They accomplished a couple of firsts: (1) The first and only combat shootdown of a biplane by a helicopter, and (2) The first known CIA air-to-air victory. Not bad for a couple of spooks.

Communication with Headquarters was very good in Vietnam, and I learned of this incident within an hour or so of its happening, although I had no details. But the prospect of access to a North Vietnamese aircraft of any sort was very attractive to an intell type, so I grabbed my flyaway kit and headed for Udorn AFB in northern Thailand, where I knew I could get transport to the crash site from the Air Rescue and Recovery Service (ARRS), the Jolly Green Giants. Sure enough, the next morning we headed for bad guy land with a flight of three Jolly Green Giants. The State Department geniuses had decided to cover their ample butts by having the remains of the AN-2 airlifted down to Vientiane to put on display to an outraged world press, thus proving that North Vietnam had violated Laotian neutrality by sending armed aircraft against a peaceful civil airline facility. Yawn. The Air Force went along with it because it provided good cover for our intell­igence operation. Of course, when State found out that I had gone in without saying Mother-may-I to them, they were really hot. But by then I had already gotten the goods we wanted, and what could they do to me? Fire me and send me to Vietnam?

We found the crashed AN-2 a few miles inside NVN. There were already some Meo mercenaries there led by a CIA field type, whose mission was to bag the crew's bodies and check to see if they were Russians. They weren't. The jungle and rough terrain precluded landing, so we went in by jungle penetrator, a cable-mounted weighted affair somewhat like a large plumb bob. I would have liked to parachute in because a behind-the-lines jump is considered a combat jump, opposed or not, but the jungle and rough terrain would have made that very dangerous. I may be a little crazy- all parachutists are- but I'm not stupid. With me went a couple of PS's- pararescue specialists. These men are elite young tigers who regularly risk their lives to save downed aircrews. They are universally and deservedly admired and respected. The PS's function was to rig a sling on the AN-2 so it could be lifted out, and to look after me. I was very glad they were there.

I was delighted to find the crashed AN-2 had the piece of equipment aboard that I had hoped to find, a brand new undamaged IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) electronic "black box". An IFF ~ a coded signal when interrogated by a friendly radar, thus identifying itself as a friendly. All combat aircraft have an IFF, and I had felt certain that the AN-2 would have been fitted with it for this mission. We had never before gotten our hands on one in undamaged condition. With this, we could "reverse engineer" a system which could reliably locate the small, sleek, elusive MiG-21's before they could sneak up on our strike air­craft. And we did just that, greatly improving the RED CROWN warning system we had at that time. This capability saved a good many crews and aircraft during the later years of that miserable war. I am very proud to have had a hand in this effort.

After rigging the sling on the AN-2, and finishing my intell collection, we tried to lift it out, but it was too heavy for the Jolly Green helo. (We sent in an Army Chinook heavy-lift helo the next day to lift it down to Vientiane.) All this activity took several hours. Suddenly we got a call from the Jollys that an RS57 had been shot down somewhere north and had strung bailed-out crew members along a twenty mile path. An all-out rescue effort was required and our helicopters were being pulled off our mission immediately, without even time to pick us up. They would be back to get us when they could. Suddenly, what had been a relatively low risk in-and-out mission took on a whole different aspect. I knew from good intel that there were NVN Army elements in the vicinity, and they would no doubt be directed to find and destroy the crashed AN-2. All the stooging around with noisy helicopters we had done that morning, plus voluminous radio comms, could not have failed to alert them. We were four Ameri­cans, who knew not ten words of Umong between us, and about a dozen Meo mercenaries, none of whom spoke English. Our arms consisted of three -38 revolvers, my Colt 1911 .45 automatic, and the Meos' ragtag lot of Ml's, Ml4's, and '03 Springfields. We had very little ammo, no water, no rations, no flares or smoke grenades, not even a compass. We did have short range ground-to-air radios, and a promise to return for us, but who knew when that would be. Not a good situation.

After a hasty conference, we decided to remain at the crash site until an hour or so before dark, and then move off and find a defensible place to spend the night, if necessary. So we waited. Late that afternoon, we heard a helicopter and got a call that the big rescue operation as completed, and we should saddle up for extraction. I can't begin to describe how relieved we were to see that big beautiful Freedom Bird flying toward us. Our Freedom Bird picked us up with no problem, and we were back at Udorn in time for Happy Hour. No ARRS crewman ever bought his own drink at any club in 'Nam. I can assure you none did that night.

As a postscript, Lima Site 85 was overrun by ground troops about a month after the bombing attempt, and all US personnel were killed or captured. The comm guys who heard their last mess­ages said it was a pitiful situation as the site team reported the attackers' progress at getting at them in their cave bunker. The official version of what happened is that North Vietnamese troops climbed the sheer sides of the mountain with ropes and pitons to attack the site. I didn't believe it then, and I don't believe it now. The attack had all the earmarks of a Spetsnaz operation, probably insertion by a HALO parachute team, but un­less the Russians admit it we will probably never know.

Of interest, the History Channel in their Missions of CIA series, did a one hour documentary on the Lima Site 85 incident which I saw a few months ago. It showed footage of the AN-2 in Vientiane, and discussed the ground assault (the "official" version). All in all, they did a pretty good job with it, espec­ially considering that it was over thirty years ago. They got some things wrong, and some they never knew about, but they weren't there at the time. I was.

� Secure this line!

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We don't make a habit of shooting down jets -- the zoomies would stop buying us beers in the "O" Club.

Remind me to tell you about the North Vietnamese MiG-17 pilot who went helicopter hunting west of Dong Ha and met a Charlie-model. Gotta love rockets with VT fuzes...

posted by BillT on March 18, 2007 6:11 PM

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The last of the combat biplanes (other than the An-2) would have been Fairey Swordfish ("Stringbags") of the British RN. They were in production through 1944, with the last new models being introduced in 1943. The last operational squadron was disbanded in late May, 1945, and last training squadron in mid 1946.

They did all right, what with wrecking the Italian fleet at Taranto, and slowing down the Bismarck before the Royal Navy sank it. They also flew antishipping missions from Malta.

They ended up being used for U-boat patrol (sank 14), and outlived their successor, the Fairey Albacore, which was also a biplane. Tough old bird.

posted by steveH on March 18, 2007 8:49 PM

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I once had a close encounter with one of them AN-2's. Well, kinda sorta.

Back in '91 I was traveling DCA - SJU on the venerable PanAm May she rest in peace. After changing planes at FLL, and while taxiing out on my final leg to SJU, I noticed a pack of emergency vehicles speeding down along the runway proper. After what it seemed like a loooong wait, the pilot stated on the intercom something akin to: "Sorry folks, for the delay, but we have a Cuban plane vectoring-in for freedom, blah - blah - blah".

I craned my neck against my port-side window seat, and as if right on queue, this rackety-old mustard colored AN-2 glided by onto the runway.

Sure enough, the following morning,El Nuevo Dia reported of a family's daring escape to freedom on that old barn stormer.

posted by Boquisucio on March 19, 2007 7:14 AM

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This is a true story, the story of "Lima-85". One of my good friends, a retired USAF L/Col who was a working controller as call sign "Dressy Lady" at a similar, and safer site at Nahkon Phanom (NKP, or "Naked Fanny") confirms that such an attack by the AN-2s did take place, and was repulsed exactly as depicted.

I was a B-52D Arc Light navigator, and unbeknownst to me, Boyd controlled many of my missions in the Sky Spot mode. Most all of the B-52 missions in 'Nam and Laos were controlled this way. Boyd and I met later as deputy sheriffs in the same Oregon Sheriff's office! What a coincidence. I still have coffee with him every week.

posted by Rivrdog on March 20, 2007 3:55 PM

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BTW, that kaffee klatch includes mostly ex-deputies, but most are also 'Nam vets. We have myself (B-52s), three chopper pilots, two Army and one USAF (was in Super Jolly Greens, and commanded one of the squadrons at the end of the war), one USAF maintenance XO, one Forward Ground Controller, one squid and one or two others who don't talk much about their war.

Yes, there are usually war stories as well as cop stories.

posted by Rivrdog on March 20, 2007 4:02 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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I'm glad to see some perspective from another angle within the hospital. I thought that Weightman was made a scapegoat, and it appears that it's worse than that - since he might have been part of the solution. Timing is everything, sadly.
One thing that I don't understand, though. If efforts were already underway as described, why not include that info in the counter-responses to the press. Or was this perhaps imparted, but the reporters chose not to include said data? One has to wonder.

posted by Barb on March 18, 2007 4:19 PM

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It is a shame, at least he apologized to the family. It is amazing to me a 4th grade primary school student doesn't meet requirements he is not promoted at the end of the year. This event did not just happen, it is the completion of a time consuming process. They should activate Kiley and Farmer, then courts martial them. Then you can adjust their dicharges and benefits consisitent with the performance or lack of same.

posted by Grumpy on March 18, 2007 6:37 PM

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Thanks for writing about your perspective. If you are interested, please check out my blog which is about health policy, patient advocacy and professional nursing. I have been writing about Walter Reed, military healthcare and patient advocacy there, and I think I'm on the same or a similar wavelength as you. You are welcome to guest blog.

Major General Weightman got the very short end of the stick, and Major General Pollock will need all of the support she can muster in order to bring about the changes in military healthcare systems and patient handoffs to the VA/civilian healthcare that are needed to appropriately care for the types of injuries and health problems that soldiers are receiving. I'm glad that your support and articulate advocacy for them is strong.

Thank you for writing this.

posted by N=1 on March 19, 2007 9:02 AM

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Does anyone know Chaplain Kallerson's e-mail or phone number? I am trying to get a local Boston news statio (WBZ) to do a story that for once shows the other side of things. They would like to contact Chaplain Kallerson's.

posted by Pat on March 19, 2007 3:07 PM

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N-1, It is amazing, as I wrote my last post, I tried to be discrete in my language. There is so much to an issue such as this. The American people need to wake up and smell the coffee. Everybody is doing an investigation into the tragic events that happened at Walter Reed. Look at the people doing the investigations, do they bear some of the responsibility? Do NOT STOP with SECDEF! This goes all the way to the President of the United States. Respect and loyalty move in both directions, both go from the bottom up AND from the POTUS down to the E-1. As we examine the situation, we need to remember this situation did not just start. It started with the previous Congressional Budget. Now as we continue, we here the phrase everybody "accepting responsibility". What is it actually costing them, personally?

But as negative as this gets, if I am honest, I must also STATE the good side. I have a serious neurological impairment, TBI causes Grand Mal and Petit Mal seizures. It all started with an earache + headache together. This happened in the spring of 1968. I went to the base clinic. The Med Tech gave me sinus and pain medication. Everytime, I asked to see a doctor, but was refused. This happened for 3 wks. The last time vas on a Friday, I asked them to lance my eardrums + install stents. The last Friday night, both of my eardrums ruptured at the same time. It also blew out the 2 small bones in one ear, with this there was a clear liquid and blood mix. It was a mess. The guy in the next bunk saw me and scrambled for a phone to call an ambulance. They arrived, put me on a gurney with a clean uniform, shoes sick call bag and my meds. At this point, I'm deaf. They take me to the hospital ER. The first doc I see is a Marine Corps Lt Col., he is not a happy doc, a little confused. He faced me and simply asked,"Why didn't you go to the clinic?" I openned my bag and shoved him the meds the clinic had given me. He said, "I'm going to write down some of the information off your meds, do you mind? I want you to put on the hospital gown and let them clean your ears up. It may be 4 in the morning, but somebody is going to get up give me your records. You'll be spending some time in this hospital and then moving to med-hold. During this stay in Med-Hold, I contract central nervous system rubella. I'm put back into the hospital with an extreme temperatures. My doctor tells me, "You'll be leaving the service." They don't tell me the reasons behind everything. You could say, I was just hanging in the wind. In July 1992, friends find me laying on the floor, near death. THey call an ambulance fo me to be taken to the hospital. It isn't long before the doctors are starting to connect the dots between that near fatal seizure and many of the events of my life. The more important thing is the VA agrees and they work with through each and individual step. -Grumpy

posted by Grumpy on March 20, 2007 2:10 AM

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N-1, To the rest of the readers, military and veterans and to the just plain American citizen, thank you. I want to THANK YOU for reading the post of 20 Mar 2007 2.10AM, flaws and all. You didn't just do me a favor, you did yourselves a favor. You entered a new world, even if it was only for a short time. I hope you never enter this world on a long-term basis, the world of "traumatic brain injury" and "neurological impairment", this is my deepest hope and prayer.

Let's try to finish and polish everything off. Starting at the point after the July 1992 event. As I would visit my doctors, they were trying to piece together a real reason for the seizures. Every path we went down was blocked, one way or another. The team of civilian doctors had no real answers causing real frustration. In fact, this is what they told me. The next visit, I raised a question, " I don't know, I thought this might help..." and I explained everything from the previous post. "Might this help?" My civilian doctors looked like kids in a candy store. One of them said, "I don't care what it takes, get a copy of your military medical records, if you must, call the congressman's office, but get them. Do you still have your military discharge paperwork, all of it?" My answer, "Of course." He said, "I want you to photocopy all of your discharge paperwork and bring it with you for your next appontment. I think we may have something, just bring it!" I had everything done with my military medical records. I went to his office, he read everything, he wasn't happy. He said, "I think we have a better idea happened a long time ago." He explained everything and wrote a letter for the VA application + typed up all of my VA paperwork + envelope. He said, "Everything I've done, will never fix it or make it right, just make your battle a little easier. Yes, I wound up winning benefits. I've been very fortunate to be working with the very best in the world.

It would not surprise me at all, if I were to go into my VA Medical file and find letter "Certification of Being a Board Certified PIA". What is a "PIA"? I must be careful, at one stay in a veterans hospital, a nurse warned me, "Watch your language!" This is good counsel here. I thought for a moment, "PIA= rectal discomfort" / Application for Royalty- Pending".

Have a great week,
Grumpy

posted by Grumpy on March 20, 2007 3:40 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!

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I'm so sorry for your loss John. She sounds like a wonderful person. Your tribute is wonderful.

posted by beth on March 18, 2007 4:40 PM

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Hi John,
Sorry to hear about your loss, I've lost my grandmother over this past summer also(She and grandpa raised me and my sister). I know this probably doesn't help a lot, but just as I am sure that I'll see my grandma again, I know that you'll see your mom again one day.

posted by ching on March 18, 2007 7:51 PM

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*lights candle*

Re: the previous post

I second your opinion on KJV. It's got a certain lyricism and dignity that seems appropriate for solemn occasions.

posted by Harvey on March 19, 2007 8:12 PM

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� Dismissed, Soldier!