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On Normals and War Weariness

By Denizens on February 24, 2007 | | Comments (18)

[Armorer's note - this is a post by Denizen Ry. I'll let you guys gnaw on this for a while before I weigh in.]

On Normals and War Weariness.

That Murdoc link from the other day touched off something. The OPFOR guys got on it. They self referenced to a Lightning post asking what we Normals are tired of, and referred to a post by Sir Lex that was rather dismissive in tone of (some of) us Normals and the genesis of war weariness.

I know I'm late to this party, but you asked what a Normal (read as civilian) has to be tired about. Here’s gollum’s take:

What are we tired of? Guilt. Guilt we experience for sending them out there. Guilt developed over families living through the difficulties of combat deployments, and worse. But mostly guilt for seeing you all suffer so much for this, with the specter of it being for no tangible benefit to anyone hanging around. We're tired of being drenched in guilt like Lady MacBeth. Switching sides, and flipping channels, gets us away from that.

Some of us, well, we feel responsible. And every single serviceman that gets messed over by this, in any form, is our fault and our responsibility since we put them where they are---we’re the civilian leadership. We start worrying about our immortal soul and where it'll wind up for the decisions we’ve made along the way. The Catholic Church changed its stance on what happens to the souls of soldiers who fight in wars at some point (2310). FAIK it's never changed its position much about the fate of jerks like me (2302) who support decisions that send you all there to live and die making the policy I decided you, the warriors, needed to implement.

So, I’m probably going to Hell even if the idea was to wage war to help people. I worry about that, and every so often the idea that if I switched sides I could, maybe, do enough penance to escape that fate I earned with my decision. It’s a temptation.

The anti-war(rior) types? I have no idea what they’re tired of. I’ve never seen some of these people more alive then when they have something like this to get all mad about (repeat of the reactions to Reagan’s Grenada adventure and orgasmic glee over Beirut, 41’s excursions to the ME and Panama, and Vietnam-.). I don’t speak for them and can’t say what they’re tired of. Nor do I care why. But the above is the reason some of us who truly do care about you Grunts, Jarheads, Swabbies, and Zoomies are starting to lag and lose faith in the mission. It may not be combat, injury, or worse. But it is something more than an ‘I just want to ogle Britney Spears’ goodies’ reason for getting tired of the conflicts we’re in.
---ry

Self centered but proffered honestly (which is another way of saying, ‘Not in the face! Not in the nads!’).

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18 Comments

By Trias on February 24, 2007 6:34 AM
Hmm i agree Ry guilt is one of the driving forces of it. Here are a few other commments; 'War weariness' as it is called is nothing new and there should be no surprise that it's present now either. It all relates to basic support for the war. War wearniess in Afghanistan is considerably lower and it's important to pay attention to why. War weariness builds off disaffectedness. Those who were not supportive of Bush from before 9/11 and the war declarations are already part of war weariness. More disaffection comes with the switch in focus to Iraq. Many wanted revenge and with Afghanistan it was satiated sufficiently. And yet more still with the switch in focus to nation building from WoMD in Iraq. This speaks very heavily of the lack of understanding Normals had of the war(s). I'm suggesting here it was 'sold' very badly. Disaffection and thus war weariness builds off divisions in communities. One obvious division is that of republican and democrat and n'er the twain shall meet. It's a problem in the US that many Americans define themselves as Democrat or Republican first and American later on. That means while the Republicans easily slot in generally supportive the Democrats are largely in the no war zone. How many other divisons are there? Yet more disaffection by timing. The concept of WoMD removal is fast and the wording of Bush and his supporters has always been of the not long now kind. Things like 'dead enders' the victory speech and the 'turning the corner' have gone on long enough that people are disaffected. This was never going to be a short war pretending otherwise is unhelpful. The dead and the injured also disaffect people. The guilt Ry mentions the realisation of a cost that seems unstemed. The lack of good news and rainstorm of bad news. Our MSMs failures have been covered plenty. IMO too the military stinks at media relations which has made the situation worse. And then there is the news itself. General military disaffection. I'm less sure about the US but over here the military has shrunk and grown very insular so that many people don't know someone in the military. Don't know what they want or why they do it. This relates to emotional investment which resists disaffection in this war. How much are the mall-goers invested in the war?
 
By BillT on February 24, 2007 6:39 AM
The Catechism is meant to expand on the RCC's tenets (which refer to faith and morals, which are absolutes) and traditions (which refer to those issues on which there is wriggle room); for example, refraining from red meat on Friday was tradition -- a small sacrifice on our part to remind us to meditate on the infinitely larger sacrifice which occurred on Good Friday -- which grew to tenet status through 500 years of misunderstanding, but was never an actual tenet. One of the problems the Catechism's authors had with the whole section on war (although they did a decent job, considering they, too, had an agenda) is based on the wording of the Fifth Commandment as translated in the King James Version of the Bible -- "Thou shalt not kill" is powerful language, but "Thou shalt not murder" is the proper translation. The former is an absolute prohibition against taking any life and the latter is an absolute prohibition against taking *innocent* life. You have the right to kill an attacker in self-defense when less-extreme measures fail; a soldier who kills someone (e.g., an enemy soldier or guerrilla) attempting to kill him (or attempting to kill his fellow soldiers, or noncombatants) is not guilty of murder and has not violated the Fifth Commandment. Feeling any better?
 
By BloodSpite on February 24, 2007 7:56 AM
What is this, depression week at the Castle or something? First me, now Ry...whose next? Ay yi yi! I have my own take on the whole Normals thing but I'll keep it to my self. I will say there probably are some like Ry, and I think 99.9% of us military folk will say "Don't sweat it." But for me I ain't military anymore. So I'm in your boat these days. Move over. Got another paddle I can use?
 
By FbL on February 24, 2007 8:22 AM
What are we tired of? Guilt. Bingo. And I think that's true even for the relatively-uninformed who are so busy, inwardly-focused, and separate from any military contact that they forget about the fighting. When they're suddenly reminded of it, that's when the guilt comes. But they may not even recognize it as guilt; they just know they don't feel very good when they think about people fighting and dying... and being the self-centered and small-thinking people they are, they want the bad feelings to stop. At all costs.
 
By SangerM on February 24, 2007 11:15 AM
Guilt?! Are you serious? Give me a break. Really. What have any of us got to feel guilty for? There is nothing to feel guilty about. Or, more to the point, if you do feel guilty about something, it's most likely that you think you're not doing enough to earn what others are willing to give on your behalf. To quote a famous amphibian, "That's nutso!" I dunno... If it were folks other than you writing that stuff, I'd say that guilt thing is all a little too 'all about me-ish." But considering it's you'se guys, that's probably not it, so here's what I think (did you think I wouldn't tell you? Ha.): I think you are confusing guilt over the war with self-disgust caused by repressed anger. I think all of us are just plain sick and tired of all of the crap attendant to the war (from both sides of our house), and of the boorish, self-righteous, ignominious, conceit-driven, narcissistic Euro-elitist bull$hit the left leaning scumsuckers in the world keep serving up. And what adds spice to that indigestion is the fact that all of those sorry excuses for human beings are only able to say and do all of that vile things they do BECAUSE of the people and the institutions they denigrate so routinely. I don't feel guilty about the war or about people dying (on any side). I'm not working against the war, I'm not supporting the enemy, I'm not denigrating the people fighting the war, and I did my time--the Army had its chance to get me killed but it and God saw fit to spare me so I could make life miserable for all sorts of unhappy people. And if the enemy came to where I could get at him, I'd have no problem doing my part to make another martyr. But I don't feel the slightest bit guilty for not rushing out to take up arms alongside my military descendants. I am willing if needed, and that's enough for me to know. But my country hasn't called on me yet because I'm really not needed out there, and there are plenty of people yet who are more than willing and able to get in line in front of me at the sign-up table. Of course, I work for the government now, and in my very small way, I am working in support of the national interests, so in that regard, maybe I'm insulated from feeling guilty about not doing more. Fact is, I was running a small business in Indiana when, after several years of feeling empty and adrift, I realized I missed being part of something bigger than myself, and so I left that job (taking a $20K a year pay cut the first year, and $10K each year for the next three--all of which is only next month going to be made up for)... So where does that leave folks who aren't working for the government in some respect or doing something to help the cause? Maybe you feel guilty that you want people to fight a war or that you derive pleasure from their successes at war fighting--well, that's your inner demon, and not much I can say will change that, I guess--but as I've been accused of somewhat recently, I think you're over-thinking this too much. We have an enemy who wishes us harm. We are fighting that enemy. If we did not he would cause us more harm. We are morally bound to defend ourselves and our nation from that enemy, and we are doing that vigorously and violently. The methods used, the timing of events, the mistakes, the successes, the sadness and horror, the constant barrage of will-sapping nonsense we have to endure (like having to take off our &$%* shoes to get on an airplane), and even the mistakes of excess by our leaders are of no real consequence, have no import. We are at war and we have no choice but to fight it. Once you accept that as truth, the rest becomes easy. Some folks have to carry guns in the war, some have to carry the wounded, some have to carry bodies home, some will have to carry the memories of horror their entire lives. And some are not yet called to serve. And that's as it should be too. You know, I was really put off by that silly-a$$ed "America is at the Mall" posting. Yeah, people are at the mall. And they are mowing their lawns, and eating at Wendy's, and buying new baby furniture, and getting married, and fighting with stage-4 lymphoma in a favorite uncle and brother-in-law, and burying their favorite dog...and just otherwise having a life. Which is what the stinking war is all about. Americans live life a certain way--all sorts of ways. Not everyone in this country is really, truly aware of the evils that live beyond our borders, or of what's waiting for them in the beyond, where the sand beneath curves off into the deeper blue and the water turns really cold. And that's just fine with me.... I was told by a senior NCO once--when I was complaining that too few Americans really appreciated the threat of the Communists or the evils of the world--that this was perfectly fine, even preferable to him. He said he'd much rather most Americans didn't know what was out there. He preferred that Americans were able to live a good life, relatively untroubled and untouched by the constant fear that haunted the Europeans or the Africans, or the Asians, or the Latin Americans... He said he knew that a lot of American adults built fantasies around their supposed understanding of the world, and that made life hard when they accosted soldiers, for example. Those folks, he'd have liked to send to Africa for a few months. Or to East Germany or China. BUT, he also said --and on this he was clear-- he did not want every American to know everything, he did not want American children to grow up with that edge of doubt that kills adventurism, that kills self-confidence, that makes people afraid to look over the wall in the first place. In his opinion, Americans know what can be, and when they find themselves confronted by the worst kind of evils, it is their innate self-confidence and their faith in the rightness of things that enables them to do what has to be done even in the worst of circumstances. He said his job was to stand on the wall so others could enjoy the life his service gave them, and he would have it no other way. And he knew that it was his willingness to do that which ensured there would be another person willing to take his place when it was time. One of the many who look up at some point in their lives and ask, "I wonder what's on the other side of the wall?" And then move to find out.... So my point is, we're at war. And as long as you're not working against the war, and you're doing something to help, in some small way (even by posting opinions on blogs in opposition to those who are supporting the enemy, or more likely, just don't get it), then there is nothing, zip, nada, zilch to feel guilty about. And as for that knot of suppressed anger? Well, short of playing Deathrace 2000 with the antifuneral protestors, for example, it's just something I'm going to have to live with. What makes that easier for me, though, is the knowledge that comes with experience that in the end, the deatheaters are going to get theirs. God is on our side, and as long as we remain true, we will prevail, and it won't be _US_ who has anything to feel guilty about. 'Nuff said V/R SangerM
 
By ry on February 24, 2007 7:39 PM
Unca Chief, yeah, I got that. I know I'm young and soooo unexperienced and all. That it's damn hard not to just step in and tell us child'n what to do or how to do a job. (That's your Cross to carry at this point, yeah?) BUt, I got that out of the Cathecism. What you just said was exactly my read of that particular part of it. BUt what does the whole say about people who force the issue about fighting optional wars? You know, Carl van C said that there's many different types of courage. I think that, knowing what I know, that I pushed for Iraq anyways says something. When I get to the Pearly Gates I've got the argument of a life on my hands. BUt I said go anyway. But thanks just the same. I'm very glad you care enough to say 'Don't be sad' the way you did. That you said it means a lot. Really. You coming from the same tradition and, well, being who you are it matters. BloodSpite. I'm not depressed. I'm pissed, and not in Sanger's psycho-analytical self hating way. You know, you're not a Normal either(neither is Sanger, John, Bill, Dusty, or Boq for that matter). YOu're not the Prussian camp follower of yore, but you aren't like me and Fuzzy. You're a Veteran---which actually means something in the scheme of things. Some times you guys have trouble relating to what we Normals think as you've been shaped by your experiences. Your mindset is different. YOu can say, "Don't sweat it." YOu have the benefit of knowing someone higher up the line made the call, someone else is responsible, able to just chock it up to 'It was his time' because there's no better way of getting thru. But who is that higher up? Does the Pres act totally on his own, or is he somewhat the embodiment of We the People? If the latter, and he is, then what does that say about We the People and our culpability? I'm pissed because some of our mil friends just dissed us most harshly by calling us unserious sheeple. Argghhh is a great place because Normal and Warrior co-mingle and both pov get heard and considered---even if a given argument is ultimately called crap. But there's real reasons why some of us are experiencing war weariness and finding it hard to buck up to stay with the Team on this. I have my good days and my bad days. But I haven't abandoned the project yet(unlike Lowry and some of the other NRO-ites). I'm not depressed. I'm just pissed that people I do care about and support as best I can, since I cannot be of their Brotherhood, think me and mine are nothing but unserious sheeple. That's a sentiment we take the Left to task for repeatedly. I just tried not to spittle froth. How'd I do? Sanger. Well, thanks for not punching me in the face or kicking me in the nads. I just don't think you get it. I appreciate the argument you made---it's very similar to BloodSpite's----but I don't think you get it. You're technically a civilian but still you're not. you're a veteran. I hate the whole classification thing, but it's a naturally occuring grouping and self selecting. Your psycho analysis doesn't apply to me in particular, but might in general. I've tried to get in. They wont take me. Bad eyes. Bad knees. Even though I scored near the top in all categories(except for mechanical and logistics) on the ASVAB the two times I've been to meps they won't take me. So I find other ways. Like charity work. Like public arguments in favor of the war. BUt it doesn't really apply to me. I know you take religion somewhat seriously. You aren't a real fan of it, but you take God seriously. Moral codes matter to you, and so does honoring that code by living it. What I'm telling you is that some of us are in an almost ASimovian logic trap because one element of our moral code is in extreme conflict with another element. I don't think you get it. We civilians can't simply say, "Ain't no thing." Or, 'Don't mean nothin'" We can't. We don't have the necessity to use such philosophical expedients. To use the power of sending men to war responsibly we CAN'T take the route soldiers do. "Ain't no thing." We have a responsibility to you to use you wisely. It's the civilian half of the bargain whereby the military leaves policy to the civilians. I take that responsibility very seriously. So I'm not going to just say, "Ry, get over it. Don't mean nothing. Buck up." It does mean something. In a sense that's why I pointed to 'Redliners' the other day. 'God' is somewhat a personification of my argument--though I'm sure some around here will say I'm more "God's" aid because of my distance from real decision making. It does mean something Sanger. And finding an expedient to get thru it isn't enough. Not for me anyway. I've been accused of having a martyr complex before. Maybe this is the manifestation? But philosophical expedient is not for me in this case. So, I respectfully disagree. But glad you care enough to say, "Snap out of it, you twit!";) Trias. Not ignoring you, but since you predominately agree no point in hashing stuff out with you. Same for Fuzzy. Now excuse me while I do my form of 'Going to the Mall' by watching Naruto with The Wife. Life does go on. War or no War.
 
By J-P on February 24, 2007 9:57 PM
War weariness? I didn't realize there was a name for it or so much behind it. You guys are way smarter than me, for darn sure. I just think it's hard watching my best friends and cousins go off to the sandbox and wonder if they're going to come back. I wonder if we're going to win, because I wonder if I can can trust the media who reports the actions of this war. I'm weary of all the argument.
 
By J-P on February 24, 2007 10:05 PM
Sorry about the double post - I forgot something. Just cause I'm weary doesn't mean I want run away and make the world think we're cowards. It's just hard is all I'm saying, to know that friends and loved ones are in danger. I'd actually very much like for them to kick complete and total a$$ and *then* come home to us.
 
By Barb on February 24, 2007 10:50 PM
Well, I'm not Catholic, so that stuff doesn't affect me. However, I'm also not a veteran - and it's long past the point when I can change that. On the occasions that I've had guilt twinges, it has been pointed out to me that the war-fighters are fighting Precisely So that I can lead this mundane, unthreatened life. So there is a normal to come home to, where people have daily life without having to think about war. I am tired, though. I am very tired of the MSM spending more time broadcasting the latest celebrity bull-spit than they spend following the stories of Chuck Ziegenfuss or JR Salzman or Joey Bozik or Eddie Wright. And I'm already tired of the bickering and bullcrap exhibited in the pre-2008 election jostling. I agree with J-P's last line. I'd very much like for our guys and gals to kick total a$$, and then come home.
 
By Maggie on February 24, 2007 10:58 PM
Again, I am outside the norm.....for the normals. I don't feel guilty but then again I am not experiencing "weariness" with any groups other than the "usual suspects".........politicians, libs, left wingers, anti-war protesters, people who don't read past the headlines, people who won't read the headlines.....
 
By Trias on February 24, 2007 11:31 PM
My personal weariness regarding this war stems from being tired of figuring out things remembering I held a fairly strong lefty view until recently. Such a change in perspective was fairly draining especially after such a large change not long before that. And I'm tired of being frustrated with the methods i see in action which i don't agree with much. It's akin to me watching a 100m dash with the runner going around the block first. I want the US to win I'm just opinionated on how to do that. I am weary of the MSM. Actually I've been weary of the MSM for a very very long time. But you know when you're tired, sick, depressed, old or whatever, when your son calls out to you because he's in need do you let your weariness rule over you and give up and ignore him? No you keep going and do what has to be done and are reminded about what's good in the world. No Ry the military does not leave policy to civilians. We vote one in a million for one leader over another. Those leaders and their staff do policy not us. We (at a 1 in millions rate) can change policy by deciding a different leader is better in 4 years upon which all policy is subject to changes not at all under our direction. As Churchill said (i'm paraphrasing) "democracy is the worst from of government except for all the others that have been tried."
 
By kat-missouri on February 25, 2007 3:08 AM
I'll sum it up: War sucks. Death sucks. Seeing mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, wives crying over a flag draped coffin sucks. Looking at pictures of 18 year olds who will never see 19 sucks. Knowing you can't be there to help them carry the load sucks. Trying to figure out what's going on and not getting the whole picture sucks. Knowing that all of this sucks and you still believe we should do it because, while it all sucks, what you imagine happens next sucks more. Knowing that tomorrow, our representative republic could decide to leave either or both fronts and leave hundreds of thousands of people to die (if not millions - some of who have become friends through organizations and internet) sucks. It all sucks. Tomorrow, here and there, we will wake up and do it again like an ugly groundhog day. Sometimes I am angry, sometimes I am sad, sometimes I am energized. It is those ups and downs that make me weary. Still, most days I only feel resolute. I suck it all in and add it to that resolution, because we aren't done until the mission is done. Still, it sucks.
 
By kat-missouri on February 25, 2007 3:23 AM
I forgot, seeing pictures of two year olds torn apart by some suicide car bomber and knowing that their parents will never get an answer as to "why" said suicider decided the path to paradise and winning the war was through their little girl, sucks. Being excited today about a project with some American Legion Riders, talking about future projects, someone said, "we can make this an annual". For a moment, the thought that this project would NEED to be annual, sucked. I can go on with the "suck", but I need to suck it up because I have to go to bed so I can get up and meet with some American Legion guy and the mayor's rep in our little town Sunday to put together a project to support the troops.
 
By John of Argghhh! on February 25, 2007 8:46 AM
Hence the term... "Embrace the suck."
 
By FbL on February 25, 2007 10:29 AM
Well-said, Kat... every word.
 
By MajMike on February 25, 2007 11:53 AM
wow. seems like everybody here is taking things waaaay too seriously. too many Athenians. as for me, i'm heading off to church, then a family function and a beer. ..and that's as deep as it gets. sometimes laconic is good.
 
By Trias on February 26, 2007 2:38 AM
Looks like you have an attack of the tards. At least we know we wont be meeting the one that thinks they're a god.
 
By Karla (threadbndr) on February 26, 2007 1:36 PM
Ry, I think a big part of what is affecting you and I is that we AREN'T 'Normals'. Both of us WANT or wanted to serve; we have that 'sheepdog' mentality that was blogged about here lately. But due to the current rules, we can't. We are like a throughbred horse, blood and bred to race who was born with a flaw that keeps it chained down to a kiddie ride. We hear the post bugle and every instinct we possess wants to break out of the gate and RUN. In another place and time your knees, my asthma would never had given a recruiter a pause (my gender on the other hand may have caused me to do a "Molly Pitcher").