We're the Military and Airpower Guys of Jonah Goldberg of National Review Online + a stray we found wandering around looking lost. All original material JHD, BHD, JR, WT, and KA 2003-2010 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:38:41 Z Movable Type 4.12 en Copyright 2012 http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification Via Blackfive, I got through to Mike and Mike sent me the hi-res picture. (mind you, that's a large file). These are my thoughts. Based on the hi-res, a couple of observations. Certainly narrows things down. 1. The stock is wood. So would the trigger appear to be. I'm not even sure that trigger is functional. 2. Foregrip is wood. No big deal in and of itself. 3. The sights - they're elevation-adjustable... which means that it's not a SAM, not that I really thought it was because those would be silly sights for a SAM, anyway. 4. For it... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:39:47 -0600 Mystery Weapon? As a retired Army Ordnance officer I'm pleased to offer my assistance in resolving this important question. If the shoulder stock's that close to the rear of the weapon it doesn't have a back blast. Plus, there aren't any signs of the muzzle blast I'd expect to see if it used conventional propellants. The breech end, therefore, is probably sealed. Lacking visible mechanical components or a battery compartment it must use a self-generated electrical signal to activate the device. Like the "clicker" on a Claymore mine but much smaller...about the size of those igniters on a barbecue grill. This thing is clearly an ultra-sophisticated, high-tech...BEER CAN LAUNCHER... ;) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56875 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56875 Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:52:31 -0600 Large adjustment for lead? It's an altitudinal axis adjust visible on the mount- certainly not for lead. Besides, the 'adjustment' is useless, because both ends of the mounting plate are slotted. Besides, who in their right mind would WELD a scope mount? welding precision is inadaquate for the accuracy required for an accurate scope. It's not even good welding. Im the hi-res, it even looks like the trigger is made of wood... Peculiar to say the least. I still lean toward prop or rpg trainer (and not a very good one). Why doesn't Yon contact the unit that did the disposal? Don't they catalog everything? If they couldn't ID it, shouldn't it have been analyzed by someone? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56783 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56783 Sat, 17 Feb 2007 02:09:07 -0600 I believe the scope is for aquiring aircraft at a distance and the large angular adjustment is for lead. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56711 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56711 Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:03:33 -0600 The front grip is reminiscent of the basic AK design, including the method of attachment: a big bolt up the middle. This suggests either a lug attached to the rear/outer tube or, if it is really "agricultural", a simple nut inside the tube. The Scope is interesting in that it looks a variable power (zoom) hunting scope. The gold ring behind the the front lense ring is found on both US and Japanese (sometimes Chinese) made sporting optics. The trigger appears to be more in the style of an electrical switch, not a mechanically linked device. Oddly enough, there is no trigger guard nor apparently, any provision for the attachment of one. The markings for the scope elevation are interesting also: If it is indeed a weapon, it must have a trajectory like a rainbow to require such a range of adjustment. If the thing is just a prop for lo-res Jihadi home movies, why put on such markings? Why even go to the trouble of installing a real scope on commercial mounts? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56692 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56692 Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:52:22 -0600 My take on this is somewhat different. Having some experience in this area, my thought is that it's simply a silenced weapon. Can't really get a good shot of the nose of this thing, but it appears that there is only a small hole in the front. It appears that what they did was to take a weapon (possibly bolt action but hard to say since we can't see the ejection port side of the piece), and to encase both the barell and receiver inside a pvc tube. I believe this to be a semi auto, due to them encasing the ejection port as well... but more on that later. If I'm correct, the weapon inside has a weaver type sight mount or some other type that was easially adaptable to the sight mount portion you see. They did a crap weld job and it only seems to appear like stitching. Using a fabricated wooden stock, it appears they fabricated a trigger extention to activate the sear of the the encased weapon. This weapon would perhaps shoot from a short magazine of perhaps no more then 4 rounds or so and the ejected rounds may also eject into an enclosed area. A weapon silenced in this fashion, provided they used a sub sonic round, would sound like dropping a pen on a desk... clicker side down... and would leave no ejected round to tell where the sniper was. It may even reduce or eliminate any GSR left on the sniper. My thought is that it's a weapon modified for close quarter sniping in an urban environment. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56681 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56681 Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:06:15 -0600 It occurs to me that if this is an RPG launcher, and if, as I have speculated, the purpose of the outer tube is to divert the rocket exhaust forward instead of allowing it to exit at the back like most launchers, then this would be much better suited for launching grenades at helicopters and other low flying aircraft than the typical launcher. Yeah, I know, a lot of if's, but if you've got a long length of tube behind your shoulder, it makes it really difficult to aim straight up without knocking the aft end into the ground or whatever cover is around you. Another problem with shooting a strait tube launcher vertically is that the rocket exhaust is going to be deflected by the ground toward your feet, possibly burning them or lighting your clothes on fire. This approach would eliminate those effects. I could tell them how to optimize this for a little more range, but I think I've said enough already. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56659 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56659 Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:28:04 -0600 ...and yet the fact remains that it was Yon that took the picture. so what in heck is this thing? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56658 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56658 Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:26:34 -0600 The hi-rez pretty much assures me this is a low tech lash-up, I don't know about sewing it together but the sight sure LL a sloppy welding or JBWeld job. the work on the grip and stock suggest some one with woodworking skills but not arsenal workmanship. Some of the SA "Student" rioters try to GI their pyro launchers but the bore just looks too small to me. What it looks like is the "RPG" launchers kids lash up to shoot bottle rockets and the like in their YouTube videos of kids living dangerously. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56654 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56654 Wed, 14 Feb 2007 06:03:46 -0600 HL - now I'll go crazy figuring out which book I found that spelling in (it was one of *many* for Master Occam of the Razor). Mike the Marine - I dunno, that thing you linked to is *much* better made than the thing in Yon's photo. I covered my bases with "toy" "junior jihadi" and noting the spud-gun comments. I've learned how to play *this* game. But the good analyst checks *all* the hypotheses. ;^) http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56645 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56645 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:44:55 -0600 I think we are wandering into Iowahawk territory with all the Kartoffel Grenadier remarks... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56644 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56644 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:54:01 -0600 One point to add to the above. The forward tube looks to have a higher quality satin finish, and different coating (burnt paint to the rear?) The rear section (larger diameter tubular section, stock, sight mount) looks to be an amateur custom adapter for the smaller diameter tube exposed on the forward half. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56640 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56640 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:58:04 -0600 One point to add to the above. The forward tube looks to have a higher quality satin finish, and different coating (burnt paint to the rear?) The rear section (larger diameter tubular section, stock, sight mount) looks to be an amateur custom adapter for the smaller diameter tube exposed on the forward half. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56637 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56637 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:19:24 -0600 I think the reason it is a tube within a tube is to turn the rocket exhaust 180 degrees - so it comes out the front instead of the back. I *like* that idea. All we'd have to do to ID the gunners is stroll around looking for guys missing their right arms...]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56636 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56636 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:13:38 -0600 My opinion isn't very educated, but it looks like a home made RPG launcher to me. I think the reason it is a tube within a tube is to turn the rocket exhaust 180 degrees - so it comes out the front instead of the back. That way you don't scorch anyone inadvertantly standing behind you (presumably a friendly, if there can be such a thing in the terrorist world). Just my guess, though. Nothing more. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56631 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56631 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:46:47 -0600 I consulted my brother Mark, and we agree that it looks like a trainer used to train RPG Gunners. I've seen similar used by the Germans in the 1980's. Uses compressed gas (air or nitrogen) to shoot the projectile. Used with special targets that have "aiming points" and "impact points" The idea is if you aimed correctly, the inert round would hit in the impact point. And the rounds were reusable. A easy cheap way to train anti-tank gunners with the need for a full size firing range http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56630 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56630 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:32:53 -0600 I think we've hit upon a new verb: "Yon'd" - to launch a DDOS attack on yourself by asking an interesting question of a significant portion of the blogosphere. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56627 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56627 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:57:51 -0600 http://wesclark.com/am/sonic_blaster.jpg The M-16 may not have been made by Mattel, but this thing sure looks like it was...]]> http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56626 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56626 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:16:37 -0600 BTW...to pick the nit: it's William of Ockham. No 'd' involved. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56623 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56623 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:03:08 -0600 My $.02: Looks to me like a homemade shoulder fired ...mortar! Damned if I know how they would fuze it (I admit I don't know exactly how mortars are fired) but that looks like a mortar tube mounted inside a second tube with a homemade stock. Everything about the scope mount is clearly kluged, rough slabs of metal and sloppy welds, but potentially effective. The trigger looks more like an electrical switch than a mechanical trigger. I just can't think of anything else. It would be like a heavy duty one-shot (or more, depending on how it's fuzed) grenade launcher. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56622 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56622 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:56:03 -0600 People I used to work with would really like to hold it to make sure...But this is what they think: It's "homemade" possibly RPG, welded angle iron for mounting scope, body looks like an artillery shell casing, wood stock and forgrip, steel pipe for added length. Seems to me anyone could have made this in any country... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56621 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56621 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:18:37 -0600 on further reflection, i would say it is derivative of a West German KG-40. the Kartoffel Grenate design had many challenges, but when coupled with a 40 ounce malt liquor, the design flaws seemingly disappeared and the actual battlefield use of the weapon finally became practical. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56620 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56620 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:33:07 -0600 Something else to consider - Yon took this picture in July of 2005. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56615 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56615 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:22:17 -0600 When I saw the thing on Yon's site, I immediately thought of a pile of aircraft flares we outside of Bagram. That or a starshell/cluster launcher...? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56614 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56614 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:09:13 -0600 Hey John does this thing remind you of the AT-4 training units? The ones that fired the tracer rounds? Looking at the close up for some reason that was the first thing that came to mind. Sorry, ran with my initial impulse. I stick with my hoax hypothesis. Looking at your sight close up, it looks like the entire unit is spray painted. Weapons Hardware by Krylon. But looking at the trigger assembly close up, what gets my attention, isn't the wood, or the trigger. But 2 little bumps, one at the far end of the trigger/stock and at the top, one towards the front and upward. The last looks like paint bubble, but the first looks like a disfigurement, where either the source material was bulged when it was assembled or painted. And I can't see anyone at a machine shop leaving that like that on purpose. Maybe I take too much pride in my work, just saying. In the close up, what I thought was fleshy is most definitely electrical tape at the end of the unit. Again, I say this is a hoax unit or as some as inferred a potatoe gun. Still no breech that I can see which means it's forward loaded like a black powder rifle, or rear loaded somehow, or something is missing. Either way I wouldn't want to be the one using it, thus I say fabrication. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56613 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56613 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:55:05 -0600 I'm starting to think that this is a prop. The reasoning is that we are fighting a media war. Remember the idiot reporters pointing to 155mm HE shells and calling them missiles a few years ago? What about Iran's new "high-tech" F-5 they glued a V-tail on? I'm not just saying this to be unkind to news agencies (worthy as that activity is), I think this is a media weapon. Scenario: They shoot the other 27 SA-7 low tech missiles captured with this device over the course of a few weeks. Every time they shoot at a helo, they have this dohickey with them and are taping it. Say they kill three helicopters with 27 shots. Then they release video of the 3 kills with this "super high technology" new weapon and insist it is certain death to helicopters. Much of our media buys it and republishes the claim without serious inquiry or later correction. All of the media in the middle-east drinks the kool-aid and announces that the US military is finished. The result of this scenario is a further decrease in support of the war back home and greater recruiting/fundraising in the ME. It has nothing to do with the actual capabilities of the weapon, it has everything to do with the credulity of the press...the only meaningful weapon AQ and the AIF has. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56612 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56612 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:29:35 -0600 Dang. I see that while I was scanning pictures AW1 Tim beat me to it. I'd suggest we should check out as many media pictures taken in the area this comes from as possible and see if it turns up in any of them. I don't recall seeing it, and I would generally think at least one of the clever milbloggers would have noticed it if it surfaced. Still, seems that there should be enough real RPGs available to use as props. For training devices, as well, actually. I mean, we don't see them carving up blocks of wood for use as dummy AK-47s. They just get their own out of the kitchen cupboard... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56611 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56611 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:29:22 -0600 I like the prop theory. A little flash powder, some creative editing, and conversion to web formats could make it look like a wonder weapon. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56610 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56610 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:26:56 -0600 Murdoc's guess: Prop for when Reuters and such stop by with their cameras for a photo shoot. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56609 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56609 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:12:22 -0600 The "thread" hypothesis certainly is interesting, AW1 Tim. I'm not convinced on the cardboard tube, but I see what you're aiming at there. And certainly, prop, dummy, or decoy is possible. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56608 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56608 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:02:58 -0600 John, I stand by my earlier comments that this thing is a mock-up or prop. Look at the tube section beneath the scope. It's a carboard tube. You can clearly see a seam of the tube angling up from right to left, same as on a cardboard oatmeal box. Now look at the seam below where the scope maount is attached to the flat mounting plate. That thing is SEWN ON. You can clearly see the stitches (green nylon cord, most likely)and there is what appears to be a white nylon shaft, proabably a section of a knitting needle, used to help take the tension off the threads, and keep them from being cut by the squared-edges of the mounting plates, etc. This thing is either a training device, which I doubt, regardless of the markings, scope, etc, or a photographers, or propagandist's prop for images and films. Either that, or it's a whatziz made up by the terrorists to play mind games with American inyel folks and bloggers with too much time on their hands..... or not..... :) Respects, http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56607 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56607 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:53:36 -0600 What other intel, if any, did Mike Yon give you, i.e., weight, materials, mechanism (sights, trigger, etc.) function, etc.? I'm assuming he didn't look down the barrel (I wouldn't, but I'm the superstitious type). http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56606 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56606 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:53:14 -0600 Trias - depends on the wood and how it's mounted. There are centuries of experience using wood in this fashion - muskets and rifles. But this is most likely a rocket launcher of some form, so recoil isn't a huge issue. The WWII US bazooka used a relatively thin slab of wood as a shoulder stock. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56605 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56605 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:39:24 -0600 It looks like a homemade version of a SMAW, designed to launch Soviet AT rockets. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56604 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56604 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:31:55 -0600 Good catch, Johnny. That's an RPG 7, useful for scale. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56602 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56602 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:13:16 -0600 John, What's that thing below the gun? http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56601 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56601 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:10:11 -0600 It's not intended to take much force very often. The wood can't take that. It might be disposable. It looks a bit rush jobed. The elevation is marked. The welding is a bit shoddy. Now the powder is possibly not paint but as a result of firing something that slips on the machined end part. I would guess it's locally made and usable. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56598 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56598 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:52:27 -0600 There is truth to that - which is why I want more pictures! Be a hoot if that's what it is. http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56597 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56597 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:49:29 -0600 Still looks like a homemade potato gun ... http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56596 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2007/02/mike_yons_myste.html#comment-56596 Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:35:11 -0600