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Mike Yon's Mystery Weapon.

By The Armorer on February 13, 2007 | | Comments (38) | TrackBacks (1)

Via Blackfive, I got through to Mike and Mike sent me the hi-res picture. (mind you, that's a large file).

These are my thoughts.

Based on the hi-res, a couple of observations. Certainly narrows things down.

1. The stock is wood. So would the trigger appear to be. I'm not even sure that trigger is functional.

2. Foregrip is wood. No big deal in and of itself.

3. The sights - they're elevation-adjustable... which means that it's not a SAM, not that I really thought it was because those would be silly sights for a SAM, anyway.

4. For it to credibly be a RPG/Rocket launcher - that rear end would need to have mating surfaces for the warshot. That rear opening is too close to the shooter's shoulder otherwise.

5. For it to be a reckless rifle, it really has to be missing its breech and venturi, for the same reasons in 4.

6. Laser designators/blinding weapons/acoustic sensors don't need elevation-adjustable sights.

Absent more pics, or a description of materials - I'm leaning really hard right now to a locally fabricated trainer for RPG/Rocket launcher gunners. Possibly even Junior Jihadis.

I've got an RPG-7 that was made in Palestinian workshops - this is entirely credible as a local-fabrication item.

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You can see it in the picture. Yeah, I know, that's a B-40 round stuck in it. Sue me.

That doesn't mean it couldn't also be a usable launcher - but right now I'm really suspicious of the trigger, from a function perspective. And, no provision for a safety... of course, French rifles used in WWI and WWII didn't have safeties either. Spare me the jokes. Yes, I mean you, MajMike. And before you say it could be on the other side - the sight is on this side, the shooters thumb (most likely digit for dealing with the safety in this regard) is on this side. Also, unlike an RPG launcher, there doesn't appear to be any provision for cocking. So, it could be electrically fired, like the US bazooka, but I don't see any provision for batteries (which *could* be on the other side).

Regardless of it being a trainer or some locally made launcher - that thing is intended for RPG-style combat, or training for it. I'm pretty sure of that.

So, grognards, what do you think?

Update: It would be a hoot, if, as several readers have commented - that this thing is a Jihadi Spud Gun. Sometimes, we do need to shave with William of Odham's razor...

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The mystery weapon from Murdoc Online on February 13, 2007 12:19 PM

This has been going around for the past day or so. Michael... Read More

38 Comments

By baronger on February 13, 2007 10:35 AM
Still looks like a homemade potato gun ...
 
By John of Argghhh! on February 13, 2007 10:49 AM
There is truth to that - which is why I want more pictures! Be a hoot if that's what it is.
 
By Trias on February 13, 2007 10:52 AM
It's not intended to take much force very often. The wood can't take that. It might be disposable. It looks a bit rush jobed. The elevation is marked. The welding is a bit shoddy. Now the powder is possibly not paint but as a result of firing something that slips on the machined end part. I would guess it's locally made and usable.
 
By A fine scotch on February 13, 2007 11:10 AM
John, What's that thing below the gun?
 
By John of Argghhh! on February 13, 2007 11:13 AM
Good catch, Johnny. That's an RPG 7, useful for scale.
 
By Bill on February 13, 2007 11:31 AM
It looks like a homemade version of a SMAW, designed to launch Soviet AT rockets.
 
By John of Argghhh! on February 13, 2007 11:39 AM
Trias - depends on the wood and how it's mounted. There are centuries of experience using wood in this fashion - muskets and rifles. But this is most likely a rocket launcher of some form, so recoil isn't a huge issue. The WWII US bazooka used a relatively thin slab of wood as a shoulder stock.
 
By Instapilot on February 13, 2007 11:53 AM
What other intel, if any, did Mike Yon give you, i.e., weight, materials, mechanism (sights, trigger, etc.) function, etc.? I'm assuming he didn't look down the barrel (I wouldn't, but I'm the superstitious type).
 
By Gwedd on February 13, 2007 11:53 AM
John, I stand by my earlier comments that this thing is a mock-up or prop. Look at the tube section beneath the scope. It's a carboard tube. You can clearly see a seam of the tube angling up from right to left, same as on a cardboard oatmeal box. Now look at the seam below where the scope maount is attached to the flat mounting plate. That thing is SEWN ON. You can clearly see the stitches (green nylon cord, most likely)and there is what appears to be a white nylon shaft, proabably a section of a knitting needle, used to help take the tension off the threads, and keep them from being cut by the squared-edges of the mounting plates, etc. This thing is either a training device, which I doubt, regardless of the markings, scope, etc, or a photographers, or propagandist's prop for images and films. Either that, or it's a whatziz made up by the terrorists to play mind games with American inyel folks and bloggers with too much time on their hands..... or not..... :) Respects,
 
By John of Argghhh! on February 13, 2007 12:02 PM
The "thread" hypothesis certainly is interesting, AW1 Tim. I'm not convinced on the cardboard tube, but I see what you're aiming at there. And certainly, prop, dummy, or decoy is possible.
 
By Mudoc on February 13, 2007 12:12 PM
Murdoc's guess: Prop for when Reuters and such stop by with their cameras for a photo shoot.
 
By Robert Crawford on February 13, 2007 12:26 PM
I like the prop theory. A little flash powder, some creative editing, and conversion to web formats could make it look like a wonder weapon.
 
By Mudoc on February 13, 2007 12:29 PM
Dang. I see that while I was scanning pictures AW1 Tim beat me to it. I'd suggest we should check out as many media pictures taken in the area this comes from as possible and see if it turns up in any of them. I don't recall seeing it, and I would generally think at least one of the clever milbloggers would have noticed it if it surfaced. Still, seems that there should be enough real RPGs available to use as props. For training devices, as well, actually. I mean, we don't see them carving up blocks of wood for use as dummy AK-47s. They just get their own out of the kitchen cupboard...
 
By Patrick S Lasswell on February 13, 2007 12:29 PM
I'm starting to think that this is a prop. The reasoning is that we are fighting a media war. Remember the idiot reporters pointing to 155mm HE shells and calling them missiles a few years ago? What about Iran's new "high-tech" F-5 they glued a V-tail on? I'm not just saying this to be unkind to news agencies (worthy as that activity is), I think this is a media weapon. Scenario: They shoot the other 27 SA-7 low tech missiles captured with this device over the course of a few weeks. Every time they shoot at a helo, they have this dohickey with them and are taping it. Say they kill three helicopters with 27 shots. Then they release video of the 3 kills with this "super high technology" new weapon and insist it is certain death to helicopters. Much of our media buys it and republishes the claim without serious inquiry or later correction. All of the media in the middle-east drinks the kool-aid and announces that the US military is finished. The result of this scenario is a further decrease in support of the war back home and greater recruiting/fundraising in the ME. It has nothing to do with the actual capabilities of the weapon, it has everything to do with the credulity of the press...the only meaningful weapon AQ and the AIF has.
 
By BloodSpite on February 13, 2007 12:55 PM
Hey John does this thing remind you of the AT-4 training units? The ones that fired the tracer rounds? Looking at the close up for some reason that was the first thing that came to mind. Sorry, ran with my initial impulse. I stick with my hoax hypothesis. Looking at your sight close up, it looks like the entire unit is spray painted. Weapons Hardware by Krylon. But looking at the trigger assembly close up, what gets my attention, isn't the wood, or the trigger. But 2 little bumps, one at the far end of the trigger/stock and at the top, one towards the front and upward. The last looks like paint bubble, but the first looks like a disfigurement, where either the source material was bulged when it was assembled or painted. And I can't see anyone at a machine shop leaving that like that on purpose. Maybe I take too much pride in my work, just saying. In the close up, what I thought was fleshy is most definitely electrical tape at the end of the unit. Again, I say this is a hoax unit or as some as inferred a potatoe gun. Still no breech that I can see which means it's forward loaded like a black powder rifle, or rear loaded somehow, or something is missing. Either way I wouldn't want to be the one using it, thus I say fabrication.
 
By Major John on February 13, 2007 1:09 PM
When I saw the thing on Yon's site, I immediately thought of a pile of aircraft flares we outside of Bagram. That or a starshell/cluster launcher...?
 
By John of Argghhh! on February 13, 2007 1:22 PM
Something else to consider - Yon took this picture in July of 2005.
 
By MajMike on February 13, 2007 2:33 PM
on further reflection, i would say it is derivative of a West German KG-40. the Kartoffel Grenate design had many challenges, but when coupled with a 40 ounce malt liquor, the design flaws seemingly disappeared and the actual battlefield use of the weapon finally became practical.
 
By R Goad on February 13, 2007 3:18 PM
People I used to work with would really like to hold it to make sure...But this is what they think: It's "homemade" possibly RPG, welded angle iron for mounting scope, body looks like an artillery shell casing, wood stock and forgrip, steel pipe for added length. Seems to me anyone could have made this in any country...
 
By Skeptic on February 13, 2007 3:56 PM
My $.02: Looks to me like a homemade shoulder fired ...mortar! Damned if I know how they would fuze it (I admit I don't know exactly how mortars are fired) but that looks like a mortar tube mounted inside a second tube with a homemade stock. Everything about the scope mount is clearly kluged, rough slabs of metal and sloppy welds, but potentially effective. The trigger looks more like an electrical switch than a mechanical trigger. I just can't think of anything else. It would be like a heavy duty one-shot (or more, depending on how it's fuzed) grenade launcher.
 
By Heartless Libertarian on February 13, 2007 4:03 PM
BTW...to pick the nit: it's William of Ockham. No 'd' involved.
 
By Mike the Marine on February 13, 2007 4:16 PM
Yeah fellers, I'm thinkin' we been had. Found this in Blackfive's comments, and it apparently came from LGF's comments. Check it out: http://wesclark.com/am/sonic_blaster.jpg The M-16 may not have been made by Mattel, but this thing sure looks like it was...
 
By KCSteve on February 13, 2007 4:57 PM
I think we've hit upon a new verb: "Yon'd" - to launch a DDOS attack on yourself by asking an interesting question of a significant portion of the blogosphere.
 
By Robert on February 13, 2007 5:32 PM
I consulted my brother Mark, and we agree that it looks like a trainer used to train RPG Gunners. I've seen similar used by the Germans in the 1980's. Uses compressed gas (air or nitrogen) to shoot the projectile. Used with special targets that have "aiming points" and "impact points" The idea is if you aimed correctly, the inert round would hit in the impact point. And the rounds were reusable. A easy cheap way to train anti-tank gunners with the need for a full size firing range
 
By Dfens on February 13, 2007 5:46 PM
My opinion isn't very educated, but it looks like a home made RPG launcher to me. I think the reason it is a tube within a tube is to turn the rocket exhaust 180 degrees - so it comes out the front instead of the back. That way you don't scorch anyone inadvertantly standing behind you (presumably a friendly, if there can be such a thing in the terrorist world). Just my guess, though. Nothing more.
 
By BillT on February 13, 2007 7:13 PM
I think the reason it is a tube within a tube is to turn the rocket exhaust 180 degrees - so it comes out the front instead of the back. I *like* that idea. All we'd have to do to ID the gunners is stroll around looking for guys missing their right arms...
 
By case on February 13, 2007 7:19 PM
One point to add to the above. The forward tube looks to have a higher quality satin finish, and different coating (burnt paint to the rear?) The rear section (larger diameter tubular section, stock, sight mount) looks to be an amateur custom adapter for the smaller diameter tube exposed on the forward half.
 
By case on February 13, 2007 7:58 PM
One point to add to the above. The forward tube looks to have a higher quality satin finish, and different coating (burnt paint to the rear?) The rear section (larger diameter tubular section, stock, sight mount) looks to be an amateur custom adapter for the smaller diameter tube exposed on the forward half.
 
By Major John on February 13, 2007 9:54 PM
I think we are wandering into Iowahawk territory with all the Kartoffel Grenadier remarks...
 
By John of Argghhh! on February 13, 2007 10:44 PM
HL - now I'll go crazy figuring out which book I found that spelling in (it was one of *many* for Master Occam of the Razor). Mike the Marine - I dunno, that thing you linked to is *much* better made than the thing in Yon's photo. I covered my bases with "toy" "junior jihadi" and noting the spud-gun comments. I've learned how to play *this* game. But the good analyst checks *all* the hypotheses. ;^)
 
By Old Fat Sailor on February 14, 2007 6:03 AM
The hi-rez pretty much assures me this is a low tech lash-up, I don't know about sewing it together but the sight sure LL a sloppy welding or JBWeld job. the work on the grip and stock suggest some one with woodworking skills but not arsenal workmanship. Some of the SA "Student" rioters try to GI their pyro launchers but the bore just looks too small to me. What it looks like is the "RPG" launchers kids lash up to shoot bottle rockets and the like in their YouTube videos of kids living dangerously.
 
By MajMike on February 14, 2007 8:26 AM
...and yet the fact remains that it was Yon that took the picture. so what in heck is this thing?
 
By Dfens on February 14, 2007 8:28 AM
It occurs to me that if this is an RPG launcher, and if, as I have speculated, the purpose of the outer tube is to divert the rocket exhaust forward instead of allowing it to exit at the back like most launchers, then this would be much better suited for launching grenades at helicopters and other low flying aircraft than the typical launcher. Yeah, I know, a lot of if's, but if you've got a long length of tube behind your shoulder, it makes it really difficult to aim straight up without knocking the aft end into the ground or whatever cover is around you. Another problem with shooting a strait tube launcher vertically is that the rocket exhaust is going to be deflected by the ground toward your feet, possibly burning them or lighting your clothes on fire. This approach would eliminate those effects. I could tell them how to optimize this for a little more range, but I think I've said enough already.
 
By Archer on February 14, 2007 2:06 PM
My take on this is somewhat different. Having some experience in this area, my thought is that it's simply a silenced weapon. Can't really get a good shot of the nose of this thing, but it appears that there is only a small hole in the front. It appears that what they did was to take a weapon (possibly bolt action but hard to say since we can't see the ejection port side of the piece), and to encase both the barell and receiver inside a pvc tube. I believe this to be a semi auto, due to them encasing the ejection port as well... but more on that later. If I'm correct, the weapon inside has a weaver type sight mount or some other type that was easially adaptable to the sight mount portion you see. They did a crap weld job and it only seems to appear like stitching. Using a fabricated wooden stock, it appears they fabricated a trigger extention to activate the sear of the the encased weapon. This weapon would perhaps shoot from a short magazine of perhaps no more then 4 rounds or so and the ejected rounds may also eject into an enclosed area. A weapon silenced in this fashion, provided they used a sub sonic round, would sound like dropping a pen on a desk... clicker side down... and would leave no ejected round to tell where the sniper was. It may even reduce or eliminate any GSR left on the sniper. My thought is that it's a weapon modified for close quarter sniping in an urban environment.
 
By Bruce on February 14, 2007 6:52 PM
The front grip is reminiscent of the basic AK design, including the method of attachment: a big bolt up the middle. This suggests either a lug attached to the rear/outer tube or, if it is really "agricultural", a simple nut inside the tube. The Scope is interesting in that it looks a variable power (zoom) hunting scope. The gold ring behind the the front lense ring is found on both US and Japanese (sometimes Chinese) made sporting optics. The trigger appears to be more in the style of an electrical switch, not a mechanically linked device. Oddly enough, there is no trigger guard nor apparently, any provision for the attachment of one. The markings for the scope elevation are interesting also: If it is indeed a weapon, it must have a trajectory like a rainbow to require such a range of adjustment. If the thing is just a prop for lo-res Jihadi home movies, why put on such markings? Why even go to the trouble of installing a real scope on commercial mounts?
 
By Dfens on February 15, 2007 10:03 AM
I believe the scope is for aquiring aircraft at a distance and the large angular adjustment is for lead.
 
By douglas on February 17, 2007 2:09 AM
Large adjustment for lead? It's an altitudinal axis adjust visible on the mount- certainly not for lead. Besides, the 'adjustment' is useless, because both ends of the mounting plate are slotted. Besides, who in their right mind would WELD a scope mount? welding precision is inadaquate for the accuracy required for an accurate scope. It's not even good welding. Im the hi-res, it even looks like the trigger is made of wood... Peculiar to say the least. I still lean toward prop or rpg trainer (and not a very good one). Why doesn't Yon contact the unit that did the disposal? Don't they catalog everything? If they couldn't ID it, shouldn't it have been analyzed by someone?
 
By Milspec78 on February 19, 2007 12:52 PM
Mystery Weapon? As a retired Army Ordnance officer I'm pleased to offer my assistance in resolving this important question. If the shoulder stock's that close to the rear of the weapon it doesn't have a back blast. Plus, there aren't any signs of the muzzle blast I'd expect to see if it used conventional propellants. The breech end, therefore, is probably sealed. Lacking visible mechanical components or a battery compartment it must use a self-generated electrical signal to activate the device. Like the "clicker" on a Claymore mine but much smaller...about the size of those igniters on a barbecue grill. This thing is clearly an ultra-sophisticated, high-tech...BEER CAN LAUNCHER... ;)